I went on a whitewing & quail hunt late in the season with a friend that brought his 28 ga SxS choked IC & Mod shooting 3/4 oz shells and a 20 ga SxS choked IC & Mod shooting 7/8 oz shells.His reason for bringing the 20 ga was if the birds were flushing farther away he would switch to the 20 ga.

From your experience is there a noticably difference in the performance of the two guns for shooting dove and quail ?

Thanks

I have used 28GAs on both wild quail and dove quite a bit. For quail, I haven't notice a difference between the 28ga and the
bigger gauges. When shooting the 28GA (w/ target loads) at higher flying dove, I noticed more birds I shot would hit the ground still alive. When I switched to high brass loads, that all stopped.



Adam

Very little, if any, difference when used for quail and dove.

From the standpoint of strictly dove & quail & comparing the 3/4 oz vs the 7/8 oz loads the major difference will be noted at the Check-Out Counter if you shoot factory. If you reload there is some advantage to the 20 as well in a more readily available line of components & empty hulls. This is not to say there is a scaricity for the 28, just more for the 20.
Personally if one has a desire or need to shoot heavier loads than 3/4oz I would always pick the 20 over the 28 & yes I am aware the 28 has been loaded up to 1oz, but "WHY" has always been a mystery to me.

The 7/8 oz load (vs 3/4 oz load) can be used in one or a combination of three ways. It can be used to make a larger pattern via more open choke. It can be used to make a denser pattern via same choke. And, it can be used to maintain the same patern density with larger shot. The 1/6 increase in shot weight/pellet count can be significant if applied in a mannor that will be effective for the particular shooter. It is not so significant as to be noticable to all shooters.

If I think I need a bigger gun (more pellet count, greater distance, etc.) than one of my twenty-eights provides I will jump right up to a sixteen or a twelve. I rarely even take out a twenty anymore - a twenty-eight is just so much nicer to shoot and will perform as well as a twenty for my specific purposes which just happen to be ruffed grouse, woodcock and skeet.

The difference in pellet count for 7/8oz vs 3/4oz for shot sizes #7 through #9 is about ½ size. That is 7/8oz #7½ has about the same coumt as 3/4oz #8 etc. #7 is not always easy to find & as shot gets larger it takes more to compensate, 1oz #5 has a similar count to 3/4z #6. As to increased shot count from a heavier load taking a choke giving similar patterns for both & using same shot size the heavier load should give an effective increase in range approximately equal in proporyion to the sg roots of the charges. Thus the 7/8oz should have abount an 8% more effective range than a like choked gun firing 3/4oz.
From a pure ballistics standpoint in shoyguns the advantage will virtually always lie with the gun having the biggest hole down the bbl, "Until" that size makes it unweildy.
There can be many reasons for shooting a 28 & I would not in anyway want to discourage anyone from shooting & enjoying one. The cold hard facts are though the 20 will allways be a slightly more effective & versatile gauge.

I have 2, a Paahkeh, and a CZ. I often shoot the CZ when there is a bit of snow on the ground, and the birds are holding close. It kills roosters! The Parker, as I think I have commented on before, was "Borrowed" by my brother about 16 years ago. It's always coming back "as soon as the season is over"..I cant compare it with a 20, as I dont own one.

I've shot my share of doves and perdiz with both the 20&28 gauge, perdiz are not quail, but comparable on the 20 vs 28 debate.
I would think there's a slight difference, which is not really an issue when hunting for hyper-abundant perdiz in SA. That small difference will be much more noticeable if hunting in a place with less or very few birds, or/and with much hunting pressure, where every single shot counts....
For doves I have found a really advantage in the 20 when there's lot's of wind.
This being said, I've shot the 28 gauge for doves 90% of the time.

I am always amused at the comments that a smaller gauge with a smaller shot charge will perform just as well as the next larger gauge and a larger shot charge. That line of reasoning would, by extension, say that a 28 performs as well on game as a 20, and a twenty performs as well on game as a 16, and a 16 performs as well on game as a 12, ad infinitum. If all that were true then a 28 would perform as well as a 12. Oh, really?

I'm in the court with 2-piper on this issue. He stated that the twenty will always be a slightly more effective and versatile gauge (than the 28). I agree, and would go further in saying that the next larger gauge will always be slightly more efficient and versatile as long as handling and target acquisition does not suffer. A larger bore will most always pattern better with the same shot charge than the smaller. Better patterns mean increased range capability, as long as pellet energy and pattern density are adequate for dispatch of the bird. The bigger question is, can a shooter UTILIZE the increased efficiency, small though it may be.

Fact is, we have a wonderful choice of bore sizes to use at our chosen sports, and we should use whatever we enjoy most, as long as it is efficient at dispatching game and not increasing the likelihood of wounding birds.

So where does my 24 gauge fit in? I shoot either 3/4 or 7/8 ounces from it, mostly 7/8. Just splitting hairs......

Really, you can get quite a bit more energy on target with a 20 vs and 28 -- either more pellets of the same size or similar quantities of larger pellets, plus you can get more velocity within a given pressure limit with the larger bore. It all adds up to an effective range advantage as bores get larger. Go back and read some of the stuff by the Technoid (Bruce Buck), I think he talks about the handicap given to sporting clays shooters for the various gauges. You can also look at the class charts for NSSA skeet. Yeah sure lots of us shoot the 28 better than the 20 at skeet, I do, but the targets are close, and we're plenty well practiced. Anyway, small bores always boil down to less effective range for taking game or targets. I'd say a 28 costs 5 yards vs a 20, but most of us take our game no further than 30 yards, so the disadvantage is masked a bit. Some pattern and velocity(energy)testing would answer the question.

Don't kid yourself about 28's performing as well as 20's. Physically impossible. They are awfully pleasant to look at and shoot, though, depending on the individual gun. 28's a nice number, I like it, and I really want to shoot it well, so maybe that has something to do with it -- that and the fact I've gotten quite tired of looking at monotonous yellow shells. You can get more 28's in your pocket, too!

I went back and edited my first post in order to emphasize that my opinion is based on my own experiences, nothing more.

try rst or polywad 7/8 ounce loads in your 12 bore. what a joy to shoot!

Those who claim that the 28 gauge will perform as well as a 20 gauge, or better, do so on the basis of the theory that the shot string produced by the 28 is more compact. This would not show up on the patterning board. If the shot string is shorter for the 28, more pellets arrive at the target at the same time and the killing effect is greater, despite the lesser quantity of shot out the barrel. Barrel design and choke have long been held to be a mysterious art. Personal experience has demonstrated that the 28 gauge can produce some very impressive results.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

I have a Parker VHE 20ga and I had a Parker Repro 28ga. Both guns were choked skeet/modified. The 28ga was a disappointment on desert quail using 3/4 oz loads and the dog had to run down too many cripples. But the 20ga,also with a 3/4 oz handload of 7s, kills these tough little birds dead in the air with very few cripples. The 20 appeared to me to have a more effective pattern with these loads. The 20 is also effective with the modified barrel and these light loads to 45+ yds on them. The 20ga with 1oz loads performed extremely well on South Dakota Pheasant, and with the 3/4oz load extremely well on Hungarian Partridge in Idaho. My comparison over a couple seasons and a couple hundred birds ended my desire to hunt with the 28ga.

How can the shotstring of the narrower bore be shorter? Educate me.

This is a "Myth" perpetrated by many but proven by none. If you put 3/4oz of shot down both 28 (.550") & 20 (.615") bores the column will be 20% shorter & have about 10½% less shot in contact with the bbl walls in the 20, both of which should result in less pellet deformation. I have yet to see a logical argument as to why a 28 should produce a "SHORTER SHOT STRING" in the air.
I once purchased the "Premier" issue of a new magazine devoted to shotguns. Contained in this issue was an article by a well known writer extolling the virtues of the 28. He based it mostly upon the "Square Load Theory" (Supposedly this results in a shorter shot string & better patterns) of the 28. He defined that Sq load as one in which the shot load equaled the wt of a round ball which fit the bore. (True definition of a "Square Load" is one in which the length of column in the bore is equal to it's dia) He correctly stated this round ball wt (in oz's) could be determined by dividing 16 by the gauge number & 16/28 ='d .57. He then Igonorantly stated this "Conclusively Proved" the 3/4oz load in the 28 made the "Perfect Square Load".
Now I'm just a TN Redneck HillBilly but I larned Decimal fractions enough Waaaay back in Grammer School to know that 3/4 = .75. Even though .57 & .75 contain the same two digits they're in different order & thus "They Ain't the Same".
So much for that Worthless Rag, never bought another.

I just returned from a six day shoot on dove in Argentina. I used a 20 and a 28 and I was disappointed with the 28. Now given that the shells were number 7's in the 3/4 oz 28's and 7/8 oz 8's in the 20 you could argue that I'm comparing apples and oranges. The 20's modified choke compared well to the improved modified of the 28. The birds were not easy and most of the other shooters found the 20 gauge modified to be best. I love shooting the 28, but I'm beginning to think it is a great short range/skeet gun.

You know guys... there is an awful lot more to shotgunning than the size of the cartridge that slides in the chambers.

There are people who shoot a lightweight, small frame, petite game gun in 28 or 410 very well. They are damn few. Damn few.

At one of my favorite clubs, we have some fine small gauge shooters. They shoot our five stand course in all it's endless configurations VERY well. They also use TARGET shotguns, that you would hardly ever see on a dove or quail shoot.

The average field shooter, meaning probably a small gauge cartridge consumption of less than 5,000 per year, is much better served with a 20 than a 28.

You want to pay your dues and learn to shoot a light 28 well go right ahead. It's a daunting task. I'm not talking skeet targets with a tubed gun or an XS skeet gun. Try a real field 28 on REAL targets like a good SC setup and see how you do.

Experience and knowing ones own abilities helps with gun selection for an expensive hunt.

What's all this malarkey about 3/4 oz loads?

The best load for a 28 are those Winchester Max loads with one ounce of shot. That way you get the light carry of a 28 with the punch of a 20, give or take a little.

I've hear all the conjecture about shot strings and bore scrubbing and animosity betwixt pellets.....it's all meaningless to the countless doves and quail that have fallen dead as a rock to the Max loads I've used.

To answer the title of the thread:

20 GA vs 28 GA IS THERE ALOT OF DIFFERENCE ?

In mass there is an 1/8oz. incrase.

In mass there is about a 17% increase.

If effective pattern diameter and range increase with the square root of the increase of pellets there is about an 8% increase in effective pattern area and an 8% increase in range.

If the effective range of a 28 gauge on Bobwhites is 30 yards then the effective range of a 20 gauge on Bobwhties is 32 yards.

I contend that gun fit, trigger pull, trigger creep, choke, and shot size have much more influence over effectiveness than the choice between between 28 gauge and 20 gauge.

Or, in other words, 6 of one or half a dozen of the other.

Best,

Mike

Excellent post Mike. you did however omit one important point. In reality the 7/8os load in a 20ga is a lighter load than the 3/4oz load in the 28. Proportionate bore area (.615²/.550²) shows the 20 capable of handling a 25% heavier load in proportion to its bore. This would mean in reality if both were loaded to the same density you would have 28@3/4oz = 20@15/16oz or 28@1oz = 20@1¼oz. This would translate into an effective range increase of 12% rather than 8% if each is loaded to the same level.
It is also noted in the case of the 1¼oz 20 ga load this is put up in the 3" hull giving more room for better, more effecient wadding.

The 3" 20 is frequently criticized. I've been more than pleased with a 3" 20 at 6 1/4 lbs and 1 1/4 oz of shot.

They tend to stay put when downed, and I like it when I don't have run.

I've shot quite a bit of the Holland & Holland Royal Game 28 gauge shells with 13/16oz of shot on the sporting clays course and on the skeet field. I've never hunted with a 28. I would think 28 gauge would be effective on birds like quail at short range but other than that I believe 28s are better for use on targets. Yes, some people use them for pheasants and grouse with success but I don't think that's the best application for 28 gauge. Conversely, the 20 gauge has quite a record as a bird getter.

Despite all the cackle of the magic of the 28 gauge (hits harder than it should, etc.), there is a significant difference between it and the 20, IMO.

With the same shot charge - 3/4 oz - the 20 throws a better pattern, in my experience, than the 28. Go to 7/8 oz or 1 oz, and there's no contest. The 28 is pretty inefficient with the larger charges; the 20 is right at home. My favorite chukar load in the 20 is 1 oz of hard #7s, a beautifully patterning load. The 28 can't get close.

The big advantage transcends ballistics - the nice little guns scaled to the 28 are a delight. That said, I find my shooting falls off signficantly when gun weight goes below 6#, so my lightest guns weigh in right there - a weight that's very well suited to a 20 gauge.

The 28s cast a spell on us, no doubt. But let's not confuse that with logic...

The logical people are in the drive up at Popeye's Fried Chicken waiting to pick up their chicken strips. Once we drop out of the drive up line, go home and load up four or five turdhounds, drive 170 miles round trip, walk 10 hours, all in pursuit of 12 quail or about 1-1/2 pounds of usable meat, we have ceased being logical.

Counting lease, dog first cost and training and maintenance, and truck mileage it works out to about $180 per pound.

I can carry the most extremely rational configuration of gun and cartridge and it still doesn't make bird hunting a rational pursuit.



And shooting 1-1/4 oz out of a 20 gauge gamegun is heresy; 28 gauge is for 3/4oz, 20 gauge is for 7/8oz, 16 gauge is for 1oz, 12 gauge is for 1-1/8oz, and 10 gauge is for 1-1/4oz. Shame on you! Next thing we know you will be posting pictures of your 20 gauge Ithaca Flues with extended Briley's and an adjustable comb. Seek treatment before it is too late.

But it is fun discussing the subject and thanks for your post.

Best,

Mike

The only reason I shoot an ounce and a quarter 20 is because I can't shoot an ounce and a half.

Get some lead in the air.

Ouch!

Wow! All this talk about 1.25 oz 20s and 1 oz 28s. How cruel to confuse us with the fact that 1 oz 20s are as "square" as 3/4 oz 28s. What nerve. The square load police are keeping track of your ISPs.

Let this stuff slide and who can say how low we will sink. The unmentionable 3/4 oz .410 may sneak in through the back door. The horror!

Sam

BTW, B&P announced a 15/16 oz 1300ish fps 28 - supposed to be available soon. Now I'm just sayin'.....doesn't mean I'm on the waiting list......

My understanding is that the same shot and powder charge fired from a 12, 20, and 28 gauge will produce more recoil on the smaller diameter barreled gun. Am I mistaken on that? So why shoot the 28 with 1 ounce loads unless your only concern is the weight of the gun? Plus the 28s usually weigh less to begin with so that would also increase the felt recoil. Although I have never shot dove, I would think shooting a lot of 1 ounce loads through a 28 could cause some pretty good bruises after a while.

I have only shot a 28 a few times but have often thought about purchasing one for those long walks while grouse hunting. Are they generally that much lighter and quicker handling than 20's or should I just stick with my trusty Stevens 5100?

Mike, I do not currently own a 3" 20ga nor have a desire for one. My statement regarding the load was in fact in "Response" to another poster lauding the "Greatness" of a 1oz 28 ga.
If you load all the common gauges to the same level proportionate to their bores using the 1oz 28ga as standard you have; (rounded to nerest 1/16oz
.410 = 9/16 (67½ gauge)
28 = 1
20 = 1¼
16 = 1 7/16
12 = 1 3/4
10 = 2
Of all these note that .410 loads heavier than ½oz, 20ga heavier than 1 1/8oz, 12ga heavier than 1½oz & 10ga heavier than 1 5/8oz are ordinarily put up in 3" cases. (I am not aware of any 16 loads heavier than 1¼oz being currently offered)
It has simply always been amazing to me how many will condemn all these other loads as being inefficient due to their "Overloading" & then "Praise" the 1oz 28 ga which is put up in a normal length hull not having suffecient room for an adequate wad column.
Now lets do the same thing but this time use the 28ga 3/4oz load as the standard & we have;
.410 = 7/16
28 = 3/4
20 = 15/16
16 = 1 1/16
12 = 1 5/16
10 = 1 ½
All these loads are much more sensible. Note also though "IF" the 12ga should be confined to 1 1/8oz then the 28 should likewise be confined to 5/8oz. The 12 is of course quite at home with 1¼oz. W W Greener stated over 100 years ago there was no reason for a 10ga unless one shot at least 1½oz of shot as the 12ga would handle 1¼ quite sufficiently.
One can convince themselves to "Like" whatever they want to, just don't confuse "Like" with facts. Fact is boring a steel bar with a .550" dia hole imparts to it no magical ballistic qualities nor does it automatically make it better handling. A 28 can be made Sveldt & a 20 can end up like a Club, "BUT" the reverse can also be true.
I did once purchase an Itallian made 28" bbl'd 20ga having 3" chambers with a wt of 6¼lbs. I bought it in spite of rather than because of the chambers. I did buy one box of 3" 1¼oz #4's just to have around & over a period of time shot them all up. One definitely knew it was there, but I could have handles them ok if the situation called for them, it didn't. most of the time I had it I fed it a diet of 2½-1-7½ loads. This has long been a favorite load of mine in either the 20 or 16 ga's & have shot a lot of similarily loaded 12's. This gun was given to my son when he lefy home & he still has it.
Although I was never one to keep accurate records of hit vs shots fired the one gun I always felt I probably had the highest ratio of hits to shots fired for my normal hunting activities, which consisted of quail, dove, a few woodcock & rabbits, was a 12ga 28" damascus J P Clabrough back action side lock with ¼ choke in both bbls & weighing 6lb 14oz. The loads used were 1oz of #6 or #8 shot depending on the quarry for the day @ about 1125fps. This was/is a very sweet handling shotgun for me & also pretty nice to look at. Certainly only a "Medium" quality gun, but then I don't own any Bosses or Purdeys.

Well, it's also good for impressing your friends that you are shooting just as well as they are and all you have is a 28. Little do they know your 28 packs 21 more pellets than their 20.

Recoil, schmecoil.

But Miller I don't shoot 1 oz in a 28 gauge. I shoot 3/4 of an ounce in my American 28ga guns and 5/8 of an ounce in my between-the-wars British 28 gauge. If I want to shoot 1 ounce I pick an American 16 gauge or a British 12 gauge out of the gun closet.

I get the mathematical argument you are making about the area of bore diameters.

If you go to Burrards second volume, page 208 and look up the standard loads for 2-1/2" cartridges you get:

28 9/16
20 3/4
16 7/8
12 1 1/16
10 1 5/16 (actually 2-5/8")

I believe these are the standard 2-3/4" American loads, again at about 1175fps:

28 3/4
20 7/8
16 1
12 1 1/8


Certainly you can find or have manufactured a 10 pound 28 gauge or a 5 pound 10 gauge. Wouldn't want to carry the 10 pounder on a Bobwhite hunt or shoot the 5 pound ten gauge with 1-5/16 at ducks.

I concede completely and without reservation that I cannot shoot 1-1/4 ounces out of my 1936 5 pound Birmy 28 gauge. I also concede that you can shoot 1-1/4 ounce out of those 5-3/4 pound Fausti 20 gauge SxSs that Cabelas is selling.

But, if you are shooting a game gun at Bobwhites at 25 or 30 yards with standard American loads (3/4 and 7/8oz at about 1175 fps) then there is very little difference.

My favorite Bobwhite load is 1 ounce of 7-1/2s. I find I don't spend as much time looking for wounded birds. I am usually shooting that load out of a Parker or Lefever sixteen. I do frequently venture out hunting with the 28 gauges as the variety makes my illogical pursuit more enjoyable.

If I could only have one gun it would probably be a Post WWII 12 gauge, boxlock, European, factory proofed for 2-3/4" loads, weighing 6-1/2 pounds, with sling swivels, double triggers, (SxS of course), and extractors. I could shoot everything from 3/4ounce blackpowder handloads at Bobwhites to 1-1/2 ounce factory cheekbruisers at pheasants.

And Gregsy I have seen that phenomenon. A less experienced companion will marvel that I can take game with those little bitty 28 gauge bullets. Of course he doesn't realize that about half of the space in his 12 gauge shell is air.

Best,

Mike

Mike, methinks you don't read so very well. If you go back & check my first post on this thread I believe you will find I basically said just that. That is comparing "Just" those two loads. Things went on from there in discussing the total difference between the two sizes.
As to the 12ga I believe if you check you will find that the standard load for the 2 5/8" shell was 1 1/8oz prior to WWI. The 1 1/16oz load came about as a legal restriction during the "Great War" in England, it has never ben a standard in the US. The "Standard" for the 2 3/4" was 1¼oz & British guns with 2 3/4" chambers are so proofed.
Note also I have absolutely nothing against a 28ga, If one serves the desired purpose Great. The Question concerened the "Differences" between one & a 20. I have tried by level best to acurately describe those differences without being interferred with by "Emotions" but rather by ballistic facts.
If you read Burrard (My favorite authority on the shotgun) you will find he rates the power of the various gauges as being proportional to the load of shot they fire. I rated them as proportional to the Sq Root of their charges. Thus he would assign the 7/8oz load as being 16% superior to the 3/4oz, while I only gave it 8%. Burrard would thus assign the 20ga at 35yds in comparsion to the 28ga while I only gave it 32½yds.
Really I fail to see your problem.

Miller:

The first line of my first post was:



And the first line of the first post of this thread was:



In my first post I wasn't participating in the discussion about the heavier nonstandard loads, just the question he originally posted.

When you replied to my first post I thought you were pointing out the versatility of the 20 gauge. I was pointing out that the recoil would likely go to unpleasant in a 5-3/4 pound 20 gauge gamegun or you would need to go to a heavier gun.

You are obviously good at mathematics and I appreciated the fact that you got the theory that shot density and effective pattern diameter went up with the square root of the number of pellets.

16 gauge 2-1/2" chambers were English proofed at 1 oz. The standard 2-1/2" English 16 guage load was 7/8oz per Burrard. In 20 gauge it was 7/8oz proof marks and 3/4 oz standard loads. Same type deal with 28 gauge.

I think my problem is that I wrote a post that sounded terse when I intended to write conversationally. I apologize for my ineptness.

Best,

Mike

No problem here at all Mike. Another little tidbit here is that prior to about the 1920 most smokeless shotgun powders were relatively fast burning. Basically these standard shot charges could be exceeded only if the velocity was dropped below standard. In the US "Infallible" powder was around back into the 1890's, which was about the same as present "Unique". This will quite handily handle 1¼oz in the 12, many 7/8oz 20's have been loaded with it, though these will not be particularly low pressure. With careful component selection 3/4oz can be loaded with it in the 28, but is about its limit. Heavier loads had to wait on progresive powders. My main interest lies with the older guns & I personally don't mind a gun anywhere in the 6-7 lb range if it is well balanced & fits. I like the capabilites of bing able to use a 1oz load, so within those parameters the 28 is mostly out. Even the 20 is on the borderline.

I field trial my dogs and knocking down the bird is a high priority if I am going to compete. My favorite field trial gun weighs 6pounds 4 ounces, is a 12 gauge, has double triggers and 26" barrels and is a SxS. I shoot it best of all my non-clays guns. I think the weight range you described is probably the best for my game shooting too. I shoot a factory loaded Federal , 2-3/4 dram with 1-1/8 oz of 7-1/2s.

I just get a bang out of sub 6 pound guns. There is no doubt I would be more effective on wild birds if I shot the field trial gun. Obviously I am not subsistence hunting so missing more birds than my usual percentage is not a big deal.

The light guns are a delight to carry, compared especially to the the 8 pound Browning Superposed 12 that I carried for twenty years. But I have no great trouble carrying a 6-1/2 pound gun either.

Best,

Mike