A buddy of mine has the following question:
"Ok gentleman I have a question that is sure to garner some chatter. I have some money, and am looking to replace my old FIE Citori knock-off with something a little nicer… I’m looking for an 12ga. O/U with 30’ bdl’s, POW grip and a Schnabel forend. Oh, yes, a vintage long tang Superpose would be great. Budget: as of today about $1500 USD and by summer I’ll be up over 2000. (No, this is not a lot of money but what do you want from a school teacher.) What would you all recommend?"
W/O POW grip I would suggest a Beretta 686. Different varieties available for amount suggested. Does he really want POW or round knob? Some folks get the two confused.
Jim
If he was a 'school teacher' in the district I pay taxes in he could afford to order up a custom B-25.
Does he really want POW or round knob? Some folks get the two confused.
Jim
Okay, I'm confused. What's the difference? I thought they were the same thing.
It's a semi-pistol grip in the states. You will hear, of course, how a 'true' POW is more slender and graceful, etc... It's all balony. It's either a staight stock, a full pistol (Perazzi, 525, etc), or something in between and 'semi' covers that well. We don't need Prince of Wales, Duke of Earl, or Larry the Cable Guy.
About the only gun you'll get with a schnabel forend tip will be a sporting clays model and there's nothing wrong with that, but it won't have a POW grip. The schnabel FE and POW grip sort of don't go together. Superposeds were never made with a Schnabel, TMK. A Citori lightning will have the long grip with a round knob, but no schnabel.
Spare me the crap about underpaid teachers! My wife did payroll in a school district in California. I know better.
Jim Legg,
Maybe he's a teacher in a parochial school...you know, where the kids behave, the lay teachers make less than public school but pay no union dues, the education's better... at least that's the way it is 'round here.
Hunter,
If the old Super sounds like gunsmith-trip-in-waiting, how about a Rizzini B ?
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=62643842Oops, wrong grip
Ruger sporting with 30barrels can be had for 900 used, i have one and shoot it as well as my Beretta silver pigeon sporting if not better, 686 is a good choice, but not sure you can get one with your budget with 30" barrels.
Spare me the crap is right. If you really think teacher's are over paid, consider this. You pay your electrician, car mechanic and plumber, even your "sanitary engineer" more per hour than you pay the person who spends more time than you do instructing your kids in how to survive in this world.
Elementary and High School teachers put in far more than a 40 hour week and many take money out of their own pockets to pay for the "extras" that the local school board cut from the budget. And they do the work even though classes have 25-30 kids or more when they should have 18...when all levels of ability are lumped together and they have to make lesson plans for three levels of incompetence instead of one...when half the kids don't speak English...when the other half need special ed. which has been cut from funding (again by the idiots on the local school board). Or how about the complaining parents who have taken away the opportunity for teacheers to provide the very structure and discipline that disruptive students will never get at home. In fact, consider the 3rd Grader with a Police "rap sheet" of 10 assault offenses in a school system that's more concerned with being PC than in discipline ... then consider whether you have what it takes to even be a teacher in today's society. Your pay is frozen, contracts are left to rot, your benefits are cut, your class room tools are reduced ... and it's your fault that little johnny can't read or write. You're only correct about one thing ... spare me the crap.
B Rizzini or Guerini as mentioned by others.
A buddy of mine has the following question:
"Oh, yes, a vintage long tang Superpose would be great. Budget: as of today about $1500 USD and by summer I’ll be up over 2000.
As has been pointed out, a long tang Superposed would not have the Schnabel forend, but would be a fine choice and there are some good bargains in the 12 gauges in Supers. $1500 to $2000 gets you into a pretty good 12 gauge Super in Good to VG condition. Value-wise that would be my choice.
If he looks around he can find either a used 686 Beretta Silver Pigeon I or a new/used Browning Citori White Lightning with Schnabel forends and POW grips in that price range.
What exactly is he going to be using this for? That would greatly impact the choice of gun if it is more for Skeet/Trap or SC's or Upland Hunting or a combination of these.
Good luck finding something.
KB
The mission/use for this gun will help members focus the recommendations.
If it's going to be waterfowl and clay games, a 12g (I assumed that was the gauge being considered) Superposed would be a nice gun. But for upland hunting, all the 12g Supers except the Superlight and maybe a short Lightning, would be heavier than I'd want to carry. The Superlight guns would likely be over the budget by a considerable amount.
If this is an "all 'round gun" to do it all and it has to be 12g, I'd find a gun around 7 lbs, 28" bbls, screw-in chokes.
Under $2K new with that combination of features, you'll probably be limited to Turkish guns (Huglu, DeHaan, CZ, Armsco, etc.)
Used, still tough to find POW/Round Knob with Schnable and 30" barrels at that price. Browning Feather or Feather XS has 30" w/ Schnable, but full PG, around $1500. Sig SA5 has round knob w/ Schnable, but 28" barrels, also around $1500. There may still be some FAIR Rizzinis around with the specs you want. Best bet may be a Citori that needs to have the wood refinished, and reshape the grip as part of that refinish. Should come in well under $2K.
Teachers in most places have aides to grade papers, do not supervise recess, put in about 6 "hard" hours a day and work 9 months a year. The only things they "pay for out of their own pockets" are special items they want to get for a special project, of their own choosing. Every teacher had around 40 students when I went to school, graded their own tests, monitored recess and really did put in more than 40 hrs. Male teachers usually were also coaches or the principal, maybe all three. And they truly WERE underpaid.
You've been reading too much crap from the NEA.
I don't know where you live, but none of what you said is true in California and not likely in Hawaii, either. Sure as heck not in NY, either.
Is there a real shortage of people training to be teachers? Anywhere? Anyone?, Anyone? Wonder why not?
Hi guys. Thanks for all the suggestions. I don't think he meant to spark a word war on the salaries of teachers, but I can tell you he doesn't make a ton of money teaching. But this thread is not about that.
To answer a few questions:
(1) I think he means a round knob, or what the French would call a "demi-pistol" grip rather than the "English POW" grip.
(2) He intends to use the gun about 60/40 hunting and then a casual clays (trap and skeet) gun.
(3) I'll check what he means for the foreend, that sounded odd to me as well.
Thanks again!
Don't know what planet you live on Mr. Legg or where you matriculated, but you're obviously not an expert in the economic realities of today's education system. I know for fact that you'd find disagreement in virtually every area of the U.S. with everything you've said about a teacher's work day and their levels of remuneration.
The truth is many teachers (probably most), especially in the elementary levels DO NOT have aides, DO supervise recess AND DO have responsibility for bus duty...and yes many DO spend money from their paychecks for class room supplies too. Even the IRS recognizes that as fact.
If you think most work 6 hour days, then you must have failed math. Get to school at 7am and attend a 1 hr. meeting with Administrative and grade level staff at least 3 days a week if you work in a competitive school system. Take 15 minutes for yourself before students arrive at 8:15. For the noon lunch break...go to another meeting...want lunch...better brown bag it. At 3:30 take 30 minutes to work on the next days materials or call a parent, or meet with a special ed. teacher about one or more of your student. Then hurry off to another Administrative or special events meeting at 4pm. At 5pm go back to your classroom and work for an hour or so before calling it a day and driving the commute home. When you get home, don't forget to grade papers for a while EVERY night. Adds up to more like a 10-12 hr. day doesn't it? But you can take Saturday off to do your own chores. Just remember to go back to school on Sunday (most every Sunday) and put in a few more hours of prep time for the coming week. And remember you can't extend the weekend by taking a Friday or Monday off as "personal time" without getting docked a days pay...so don't plan to take a vacation or family trip during the holiday season if you can't get back at least two days early ... just like being stuck in Denver right now.
As for a 9 month school year with 3 months off, that's BS too. The days of the agricultural school year are long gone. School starts in mid August(don't forget to get your classroom set up) and ends in mid June. Teachers are required to keep up their certification by taking courses during the summer. And any good teacher will enroll in continuing education to get more specialized in what they do for your kids ... so keep cutting that summer break down to size. If you're lucky you'll squeak out 3 weeks to do what you want, but not always consequetive weeks.
The teachers who really get the shaft are the untenured "teaching assistants" at the junior college level. No job security, no health benefits and many have to work more than one school to make ends meet...that's fact and truth in the Chicago market!
I seriously doubt you'll find agreement with your ideas about teaching in either city or suburbs of L.A., Chicago, New York or any area of population. As for no shortages of teachers, bet you'll also find more leaving early due to burn out than you had in the good old days of "little house on the prairie" in Utah.
Bottom line - don't bad mouth or make fun of teachers...you just might learn something.
BTW - to the original post...buy a Guerini even if you have to save a bit longer to get the funds. As a teacher, you'll have earned it.
A simple search of the internet reveals that the average schoolteacher salary for 2004 in Hawaii was $49K. Here in Michigan, $54K. Seems like enough budget for a nice doublegun. Perhaps we should be thankful there is at least one teacher who still shoots and hunts. Especially in Hawaii.
If he can stand a used gun - I bought a 12 ga Beretta BL-4 a year or two ago for less than $1000. It weighs 7lb, has 30" bbls, and is hand engraved with ejectors, SST, SPG. No schnabel, no choke tubes. Balances 5.5" ahead of the trigger.
Not for sale btw.
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
Well, Sharpsrifle,
First of all, you are either a a union rep for the NEA, or have swallowed the nonsense frequently spewed out in the newspapers or on TV. Most of what you have written is NOT true in any of the major cities or even in major states. Certainly not true in Chicago!
Also not true is that I was "bad mouthing or making fun of teachers". I didn't even say they were OVERpaid. I said they are not UNDERpaid. I also did not go to school in Utah. I went to school in Chicago in the 40's and had no interest or knowledge of teacher's pay in Chicago at that time. I went to school in Western KY from 45 through 1953 and do know that teachers there were underpaid, at that time. Underpaid teachers, relative to general wages where they live, are pretty much a myth perpetuated by teacher's unions and the press. The myth continues unchallenged because most people are ignorant of the facts in 2006 and wouldn't dare question the stories because it's a sacred cow topic: all nurses are stressed out and all teachers are underpaid. What I've stated is not "my ideas", they are facts. Merry Christmas.
Well Mr. Legg,
Once again you've made some poorly thoughtout assumptions. I am not a union rep for the NEA, a teacher by profession, or gullible enough to swallow anything the news media has to promote.
You've said nothing of substance that would make me reconsider my observations that most people, are more than willing to pay more to fix their lights, automobile or have their garbage picked up than they'd ever pay the most important people in our society... teachers. The people who are responsible for helping each child grow into an adult capable of thinking a problem through to a logical conclusion instead of looking for an easy "pat" answer stated as fact when it's actually no more than opinion.
Stating that (and I paraphrase) "a teacher might be considered underpaid relative to where they live is a myth", has nothing to do with either fair value remuneration or their importance to our society. Such a position is indefensible and absurd. If you insist on stating as fact that teachers are NOT UNDER paid, then you continue to miss the point and probably always will.
Unfortunately, ignorance is bliss for too many. I trust you'll have a blissfully ignorant Merry Christmas unencumbered by this debate.
A Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.
And I still think the Guerini is a good choice...but that's just my opinion...not a fact.
Sharpsrifle - Thanks for sticking up for my wife. A public school teacher for 20 years. And yes, she probably puts in 12 hours a day and 10-12 hours on weekends from mid-august to Mid June.
My opinion of parochial schools is a little different. They don't always get the best teachers because of their low pay. They also don't have to take the disabled, mentally handicapped or behavior problems so they leave the difficult but everybit as deserving of an education child to the public schools.
As far as the 12 g O/U, look at the Franchi SP or SX. It's in the price range you are looking for although it has the pistol grip. It has the Schnabel forend. The Franchi SP Veloce has the POW grip but it only comes in a 20 gauge. These Franchi have the best wood I have seen for the money. The SP and SX were recently replaced by a newer model but they are still available if you look. Very nice guns for the money.
The Rizzini and Guerini will be above your price limit unless you save a little longer or buy a rather used one.
One other thing Jim. When you look at the hours she works and her salary she makes about $14 per hour. Not bad until you consider she has her Masters Degree. How many other professionals with their Masters and 20 years experience make that when working in their profession? And if I had to put up with some of the parents she does, it would be just like that scene in "It's a Wonderful Life."
Merry Christmas.
Why has this been hijacked into a post about teachers??? The guy wants to know what kind of OU he can get for 1.5-2K. Help him out. You guys know a lot more about this than me.
My personal opinion about those guns is I would look for a used Browning Citori or Beretta silver pigeon. There are plenty of them around in gun racks. Someone should be able to change or modify the pistol grip into a more rounded one. Fit is paramount.
My personal opinion about Teachers. I respect them, feel they have a tough job, and are doing a great job with my kids.
regards
zehyani
I sure hope the gentlemen finds the O/U he's looking for. As far as teachers salaries go, they earn every nickel they get. I chose law enforcement for a career, darned if I'd take the crap teachers took from students and some parents and I made that chice 49 years ago. My Mother was a high school teacher, now I know the game has changed a lot, but still would go in to LE. In Wis. where I live teachers grade thier own papers. will not speak for Utah. Let it rest or run for the Board of Education and I have No time for the NEA.
well, In my opinion every teacher who wants to upgrade their gun collection deserves our support. If we had a couple hundred thousand more perhaps the future of our sport would be secure.
The Teacher Salary Myth
"You took a teaching position, 'cause you thought it'd be fun, right? Thought you could have summer vacations off...and then you found out it was actually work...and that really bummed you out"
-- Carl to Vernon, in the Breakfast Club
If you go to the NEA web site, you will see that they argue that most of the problems in education boil down to either low teacher pay or overly high teacher productivity expectations (i.e. classroom size). I fisked many of these claims here and here, but most media outlets still quote these assertions credulously when they write about education.
I have found (from some past emails I have received) that one of the ways to really irritate a teachers union rep is, when they lament their low salaries, to point out that they only work 9 months a year, and they should multiply their salaries by 1.33 to make them comparable to the rest of ours. For example, per the NEA web site, teachers made a bit over $56,000 on average in California in 2004. Lisa Snell, in this month's Reason, estimates that benefits add nearly $16,000 to this compensation package, for a total of about $72,000 per year for California teachers. Normalize this for the fact they work 9 months (or less) a year, and you get them making an equivalent of $100,000 a year. Woe is me.
Of course, California is high vs. other states on salary, and the "9 months" estimate is only approximate, and doesn't count the fact that teachers typically work a shorter work week than many other professionals. Fortunately, Snell pointed me to this article in Education Next, which has a fantastic rebuttal to the "teachers are underpaid" myth.
A substantial body of evidence implies that teachers are not underpaid relative to other professionals. Using data on household median earnings from the U.S. Department of Labor, I compared teachers with seven other professional occupations: accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, social workers, lawyers and judges, artists, and editors and reporters. Weekly pay for teachers in 2001 was about the same (within 10 percent) as for accountants, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, and editors and reporters, while teachers earned significantly more than social workers and artists. Only lawyers and judges earned significantly more than teachers—as one would expect, given that the educational training to become a lawyer is longer and more demanding.
Teachers, moreover, enjoy longer vacations and work far fewer days per year than most professional workers. Consider data from the National Compensation Survey of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which computes hourly earnings per worker. The average hourly wage for all workers in the category “professional specialty” was $27.49 in 2000. Meanwhile, elementary-school teachers earned $28.79 per hour; secondary-school teachers earned $29.14 per hour; and special-education teachers earned $29.97 per hour. The average earnings for all three categories of teachers exceeded the average for all professional workers. Indeed, the average hourly wage for teachers even topped that of the highest-paid major category of workers, those whose jobs are described as “executive, administrative, and managerial.” Teachers earned more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, atmospheric and space scientists, registered nurses, physical therapists, university-level foreign-language teachers, librarians, technical writers, musicians, artists, and editors and reporters. Note that a majority of these occupations requires as much or even more educational training as does K–12 teaching.
Curious about the data she uses, I went straight to her source, which is here, and now has data through 2003 online that can be queried. Sure enough, her conclusions are right there in the Labor Department data:
Professional or Technical Occupation 2003 $/hr
Technician $20.85
Avg. White Collar, ex. Sales $23.33
Avg. All Professional and Technical $28.37
Elementary School Teacher $31.74
Executive, administrator, manager $32.20
Engineer, architect, surveyor $34.34
Dentist $38.93
Lawyer $46.11
Doctor $52.91
Note that when corrected for hours worked onto a $ per hour basis, teacher salaries are higher than the average white collar or professional worker, and quite competitive with other professionals such as engineers and managers. In fact, if you were to take out private school teachers (which mix the number lower, see below) the average for public school teachers is even higher. Occupations making more than teachers such as doctors and lawyers require much more education and long-term commitment than the average elementary school teaching role.
By the way, the Education Next article linked above gives us another clue that is useful in understanding teachers salaries: For the vast majority of professions, a government job in that profession pays less than an equivalent private job. People accept the lower government salary for a variety of reasons -- sometimes for unique work (e.g. interning with the DA as a young lawyer), sometimes for the higher benefits and more job security, and sometimes just because the jobs require fewer hours and frankly have lower performance expectations than their private equivalent. The one glaring exception to this public-private salary relationship is with teachers salaries, where the salaries of public school teachers are often as much as 50% higher than their private school equivalents.
Wow! Its no wonder that the NEA hates the idea of school choice and competition from private schools. They have built a public employment gravy train, with premium salaries, no real penalty for under-performance, and double digit raises for a 180 day a year job -- all while selling the media on their woe-is-me-we-are-underpaid myth.
Correction: Messed up the Breakfast Club quote - it was spoken from Carl the Janitor to Vernon, not by "Carl Vernon".
Update: A lot of people ask "What do you have against teachers?" and I answer, "nothing." I can't remember complaining about what any employee of a private firm makes. In fact, for employees of private firms, I am happy to root for you to get all you can. Go for it. But teachers are not private employees -- they are government workers, just like every other government bureaucrat who gets paid by my taxes that are taken from me against my will. If I pay your salary, and in particular if I pay your salary against my will, you can be sure I am going to demand accountability.
By the way, I send my son to a private junior high. The school is widely acknowledged to do a much better job than any public school in the city. And you know what - my tuition at this school is $2000 per year LESS than the average per pupil spending in Scottsdale public junior high schools. And this school is 100% tuition supported (it is a for profit secular institution so it can't take contributions) and it turns a profit for the family that owns it. You know how many principals, assistant principals, administrators, and clerks it has for a 300 person junior high school? Two. The number at a similarly sized public school would be ten times as high. At least.
Posted on May 3, 2005 at 09:48 PM | Permalink
Merry Christmas to all
So,
What about his question? A good O/U for 1.5-2 K? Beretta 686? Browning Citori? Weatherby Orion? SKB? I do not feel qualified to make a recommendation.
zehyani, you may wish to have him look at the European Brownings, specifically the 425's. They do have the requisite forearm, bbl lengths, no porting, standard Browning Invector [NOT plus]choke tubes, wide rib. The stock dimensions are good. The grip is not overly tight and could be rounded and thinned without hurting anything should that be necessary to meet his need. The stocks are oil finished. I have small hands & have not found the grip on a 20 that I have to be the least cumbersome. Andrew Litt in Wales would be a good source for one of them. They are good solid guns for the money and would meet his cost criteria.
He's had 14 replies to his question, including two from you and one from me.
Merry Christmas