k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich

Posted by: ellenbr

k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/03/10 06:04 PM

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_k.u.k._Hoflieferanten_1899

Some fine soul has discovered a/the k.u.k Hoflieferanten 1899 list for the Vienna court, scanned(original text looks to be to the far right) and entered it on the web. "k.u.k." is for kaiserlich und königlich standing for Imperial & Royal and Hof-lieferanten noting that an entity was a supplier/purveyor to a specific member of the court. 1st an entity or company had to have an established business relationship with the court and after a few years, and under close scrutiny, the title of top supplier could be attained. From what I can glean, the title was non-transferable and a partner, heir/assign or different owner would have to acquire a similar title. Taking Anton Mulacz, or Johann Erhart of Marburg for example, he is listed as a büchsenmacher so he supplied the gunroom of one of the members of the court. The title warranted a yearly stout fee and could be revoked at any time but it put the maker in the luxury goods realm. At the end of the Habsburg's reign there were some 506 top suppliers and around the turn of the 20th century there were at least 500 purveyors or more. Pre-1867 items may have a "k.-k." which stands for kaiserlich-königlich or "k.u.k." while most post 1867 items will have the the "k. u k." abbreviation, noting being from anywhere with the Austro-Hungarian empire, with the exception of items solely from the Austrian portion of the empire which will have the "k.k." stamp. A "m.k.", magyar kiralyi, would denote an origin from the Hungarian region. I'm sure there are other lists and I type all this to note that these lists may provide some insight into these Hof-Büchsenmachers, master gunsmiths sourced for sportings arms, that we're chasing. So those of you with k.u.k. examples feel free to post the name and/or pic. Hof-Büchsenmacher was just a marketing ploy or tool. Note that Springer is at the top of the list. The reason I stumbled upon this list is that there exits a Scherping example with Albert Staehle's name atop the rib and he was in Vienna in the mid 1860s and later he is listed as "k.k. Hof-Büchsenmacher Wien". In 1881 an advert gives Scherping as being a Hofbüchsenmacher in Hannover as well as Rasch of Brunswick as well as a Bruns of Brunswick but he was only listed as a gunmaker if I am reading it correctly.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: von Falkenhorst

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/03/10 11:59 PM

Herrlich! Wissen Sie etwas ueber den Hof-Buechenmacher, A.F.W. Timner von Koblenz. Es gehoert mir eine Hahnbueche von Timner. Ich weiss dass Koblenz war nicht in Oestereich-Ungarn, aber einege auf diese Liste sind auch von Deutschland.

Alles Gute!

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/10 08:12 AM

J.K.B.:


I know very little on ole A.F.W. Timner of Coblenz, Koblenz post 1926? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koblenz, on the Rhine near the intersection of the Rhine & Moselle, but have seen his name in the Polytechnisches Journals and that he peddled or was sourced by a von F. Hauptmann of Berlin in mid 1870s for his 1876 Model pistol(Timner design and patent?), if I remember correctly. I don't think he acquired the title until post 1875 but that is just a guess. I hope more Hof lists will surface and give us a direction to search. He, or his heirs & assigns, offered the full spectrum of arms from pistols to vierlings. Cabelas had a drilling with his name on it and I think they were asking say $6k U.S. of A. I'll look to see if I have any more info.

Another interesting master gunmaker is Hof-Büchsenmacher J. Schmidt of Güstrow who may have hung out his shingle in 1843. Could this maker have influenced H. Scherping to choose the path he chose?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: improved modified

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/10 11:53 AM

How did you guys do umlauts over your letters??? When typing up your post?
Posted by: montenegrin

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/10 12:46 PM

Raimey,
I thank you very much for this information, very interesting.
BTW I live about 1/2 hour from Marburg (Maribor), Johann Erhart's domicile, and go there from time to time. I've seen a few of his guns, mostly target rifles.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted by: JayCee

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/10 07:01 PM

Hi IM,

You mean ü ö ë ä? With my Mac, you type alt/option, u and then the vowel you
want accented.

JC
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/10 09:40 PM

Appreciate the comments, Jani. Any additional info on Johann Erhart's heirs & assigns? Maybe his address?

IM:
I have these written on the back of my hand so I don't know all the characters:

ä - hold "alt" while pressing "132" on number lock
ö - hold "alt" while pressing "148" on number lock
ü - hold "alt" while pressing "129" on number lock
ß - hold "alt" while pressing "225" on number lock

and the degree symbol, ° , is "248".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: bavarianbrit

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/07/10 09:47 AM

I change the windows language from English to deutsche using the settings in start etc, and you then get the 2 options EN or DE showing down in the lower right area of the screen then I just hop over to deutsche with the mouse and use the relevant key to get the umlautet letters onto my normal posts then go back to EN.
Martin
Hi Raimey.
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 09/14/10 08:52 PM

There may be other marketing titles, but I did find the term Herzoglich HofBüchsenmacher on a G.L. Rasch, which would be centered around Duke and I guess the best way to sum up the advertising is subcontractor or wholesaler to the court of the Duke, King, whatever.


Pinfire from Littlegun's site: .

Interesting engraving on the hammers, maybe Neo-Gothic?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 09/26/10 05:18 PM

I've seen examples by Jozsef Kirner of Budapest stamped with Cs.(Császári) Es Kir.(Királyi) Udvari Puskamüves Jozsef Kirner - Pesten. He's listed as a master gunmaker in the Budapest list and he obtained his warrant in 1869. And thanks to Jani I now know that Császári Es Királyi Udvari Puskamüves means the same in Hungarian as k.u.k. does in German. I believe Jozsef Kirner was a Junior and a descendent of George of Bavaria, maybe his grandson.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 04/28/12 03:17 PM

k.u.k. - kaiserlich und kniglich - German

Cs.(Csszri) Es Kir.(Kirlyi) Udvari Puskamves - Hungarian
seen on Jozsef Kirner

Recap and to add Polish version:

C.I.K.(Cesarsko-Krlewski) Nadworny Dostawca - Polish
as seen on Alfred Dzikowski of Lemberg(Lwow/Lviv) examples

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: Run With The Fox

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 04/28/12 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: von Falkenhorst
Herrlich! Wissen Sie etwas ueber den Hof-Buechenmacher, A.F.W. Timner von Koblenz. Es gehoert mir eine Hahnbueche von Timner. Ich weiss dass Koblenz war nicht in Oestereich-Ungarn, aber einege auf diese Liste sind auch von Deutschland.

Alles Gute!

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst
Was ist der Korrekte Titel diesmen Handbuch, welches das BuchenMeister Herr Timmer, Bitte! RWTF
Posted by: montenegrin

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 04/28/12 06:14 PM

Since dvor in court and puska is gun I will speculate that Udvari Puskamves is Court Gunmaker.
The Polish Nadworny Dostawca is not the same but rather Court Supplier.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 04/28/12 08:03 PM

Thanks Jani for the insight and/or correction. So, would Nadworny Dostawca be more similar to Hoflieferant, Knigl Hof-Rstmeister or both?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/12 09:11 AM

A new term to add: Sr.(Seiner/Senior?) Majestt des Kaiser und Knigs thanks to a fine Gentleman who sent it to me. Is there a differentiation between Waldlufer & Woodslufer? My 1st guess would be someone in Berlin like J. Amuel or Heinrich Barella. I'd like some insight on the top rib.
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3850007









Probably sourced a SS mechanic like Sylvestr Schilling.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted by: ellenbr

Re: k.u.k.- kaiserlich und königlich - 05/04/12 07:33 PM

It seems that post 1871, after German and France crossed swords, that the phrase Sr.(Seiner) Maj.(Majestt) Des Knigs became Sr.(Seiner) Maj.(Majestt) Des Kaisers u.(und) Knigs. So the above example would be post 1871.


A.F.W. Timner zu Coblenz may also be a culprit. Appears he may have a similar patent for a target rifle or something cylinder based?



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=277281&#Post277281

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse