I'm interested in evaluations of the success of the project.

The RBL seemed to be conceived as a semi-bespoke gun (you had all sorts of options as to wood, gauge, barrel length etc) at a low price which was intended to look and handle a bit like a British game gun.

Modern production technology and a vision of traditional looks and handling?

Was it a success?

I have noted gripes with delivery times, customer support etc but what I am really interested in is this:

Did the concept have legs or are buyers so demanding that they expected a $10,000 gun for $3,000 and were disappointed when they did not get one?

Is the RBL still in production BTW?

Thanks,

Dig

The gun was and is a great value. Is it up to custom gun standards? I doubt that anyone make such a claim. It is, IMHO, the best gun buy in this price range and a helluva shooter.
If I were to pick the best of the RBL's, there is no question that it would be the RBL-28. It's lightweight with the feel of a custom gun costing much more.
The worst is the RBL-16 which is overweight and handles like a bottle bat....OK, (I'll be nice) maybe a Model 21.
The RBL-20 falls somewhere in between.
Most owners are very pleased with there guns can live the much publicized imperfections, real and perceived.
I think CSMC has done much better than they ever imagined. It's my understanding they spent a great deal of time increasing production capacity to fill the unexpected demand.
You can no longer order an RBL. I assume that means they've ceased production.

clearly it was a marketing success, people lined up and paid in advance. Offering some choices while not bespoke appealed to many people. Whether it was a business success only Tony knows for sure. The guns themselves were a mixed lot, but for the most part people were pleased even if they had to send their gun back for repairs.

I'm betting that if they broke even it was a success, as my suspicion is the facility itself was the ultimate goal and this endeavor merely helped finance that.
The one guy I know with an RBL 20 loves his and purchased a 12ga clays gun to go with it.

Over time the attempts at embelishment have become less and less attractive on my Launch Edition. The gun earns its keep though with exceptional shootability. It really made my Parker Repro seem to swing like a stump. My guess is that alot of us are happy to have a decent double made in America and we wouldnt be claiming it to be all that pretty if it was made elsewhere. (Maybe its just me but id prefer the lasers be kept away from my guns. Thats both re wood and metal)

I have both 20 and 28. I like them them both and agree that they were/are great values. The 20 gauge is a little thicker/heavier than I would prefer (but no worse than my Beretta 426E), but the 28 gauge (with 30" barrels) is just right. Fit, finish, and wood quality on both is way above average in this price range, new or used. I'll probably have the laser checkering recut at some point. CSMC went to school on this project, and the A10 seems to be one of the results of the schooling. I expect more interesting guns from them in the future, at somewhat reasonable prices.

I have a RBL-20 and love it. A friend lent me his during a hunting trip. I had not shot at anything with feathers in 25 years and had never used a sxs before, but I hit everything I shot at. I drove to New Britain the following week and bought one. My only complaint is that the damn thing has given me the sxs disease, after a lifetime of ignorant bliss shooting a pump.

I am not a double-gun expert, but for my money the ~$3k I paid for my RBL (incliuding a nice case and lifetime warranty) was a great investment, based on value, aesthetics and performance. From the new sxs in that price range that I have seen, nothing really compares, with the possible exception of spanish guns. But those are neither US-made nor US-serviced.

CMSC has stopped production and is sitting on an undisclosed inventory (they also won't say how many they made), which they seem to be selling in small numbers on their website. Knowing their marketing inclinations, I would not be surprised if they come back with some special edition RBL (maybe 28 and/or 20 only) after they finish with the A-10.

Well, options ordered are likely a handling factor with the 16 ga. and 12 ga. guns if you got the changeable pad system. My 16 is 6 lbs. 10 oz. - just right for the 1-1/8 oz. loads I use for wild pheasants over flushing dogs. I ordered straight grip, splinter, and buttplate instead of the pad system. With the buttplate option they bore some additional wood from the buttstock. And contrary to the opinion of some who apparently haven't handled this configuration, the gun handles very nicely.

Jay

6 Lbs 10, is a bit, er, for lack of a better term, "Rubenesque" for a 16, don't 'cha think? 1 1/8th oz is a big 16 gauge load, but, how many do you get to shoot in the course of a day?
My two 12s weigh about 6 and the other weighs 6lbs 10ozs-but, it is a 3" with 28" tubes.
That said, the RBL seems to have been mostly a success. Hard to find anything to compare it to in that price range. The people who had problems complained often and, loudly, here and at a few other sites. I'm thinking they were the exception, and not the rule.
Best,
Ted

I ordered all four. I'm very pleased with the 16-, 20- and 28-gauges. This past season my RBL-16 - ordered 4x straight grip, double triggers, improved cylinder and modified - was my go-to gun for nearly all of my Pheasants. I did have to field test a 1950-vintage Superposed 20-gauge 28-inch modified and full when it came my way! Through a couple of fortunate circumstances I have more then enough 1 1/8 ounce number 6 shot 16-gauge shells to last me to mid-century.

My RBL-12 is just what I ordered, but I really don't like a gun that heavy any more.

Around my area I hear a lot of belly-aching for an RBL-410.

Lifetime Warranty---are you sure about that?

I wanted an RBL .410 but I got tired of waiting and bought an Ugartechea, AOC/SG. Nice gun, but I'd rather have an RBL with 30" barrels, M/F or IM/F.

Yes, all RBL's come with a lifetime warranty. If it breaks, they hold it up to the light and say "Yep, that was it's lifetime!'

I hope you guys aren't too sick of me constantly trotting out photos of my semi-matched pair of RBL Launch guns, but this seems like a good thread to do it in and I like them, so here goes . . .







--shinbone

I got an RBL 28 and really like it. 5 pounds 14 oz, 28 inch barrels, double triggers, SG, self openner, 3x wood with a semi-beavertail. Great triggers and a joy to carry and shoot. I shoot it well, up in the high teens and low 20s at skeet--and I am not a skeet shooter.

It is made to shoot any type of shot, although for me and a 28 bore that wasn't a consideration.

Made in the US, a semi custom 28 bore SxS for less than $5k? I had a UK trained gunsmith look it over and bend the stock to fit and he was impressed with the quality on the inside of the gun as well as on the outside.

It is not an AA Brown or a Purdey or a Churchill, but for less than $5k its a real nice gun.

Best,

'Course it goes without sayin' that Ted knows better, has standards and all, but rubes like Rueben James and me will have to suffer carryin' 6 lbs. 10 oz. chasin' after them pheasants ... tho' ma arms gets so tired from luggin' that load I can't hardly raise one up to pick ma nose.

GregSY seems to recall that the CSMC warranty is in fact a meager 6 months.

After shooting nine and ten pound clay guns a 6-10 16 seems down right light weight. I had two RBL's on order and canceled them due to long wait and other guns needed to be bought. A bargin is a bad thing to miss. Bought three RBL's used later. One son loves his other son not that impresses. To him a K-80 is all he needs. My RBL gets very little use due to me having too many other choices. Nice gun for the money and had no problems with any of mine. For the cost I think they are a great value.

Well, Chas, I don't know about any 16 gauge standards, or knowing better, but, at that weight, I can carry a 12, you know? An ounce and 1/8th work even better in the bigger gun, according to the Rosters of the world.

Right?

I always thought that a 16 was such a pleasant performer with an ounce of shot and at 6 lbs and maybe a few ounces that it wasn't really necessary to try to turn it into a 12. But, you know, whatever floats your boat.

Hey, maybe I'll catch you at a wife carrying contest someday. The hot tip, believe it or not, isn't working out a bunch with a fat one-it's showing up with a really little one.

Just so you know...

Best,
Ted

I dunno ol' Tedster, seems to me a real man wouldn't sweat it over a couple ounces. Let me guess - when you get hungry, you announce that you 'could really go for a Cobb Salad!'

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/10895_600x400.jpg
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/10894_600x400.jpg

I like them. Quality seems great to me. Wood is beautiful.

I stand corrected:


http://www.rblshotgun.com/faq.htm
Warrantee: The RBL Reserve carries a five year limited warantee on manufacturer defects.

Doverham - Thanks for sharing this. Originally the RBLs built to specified options were offered with just a 6 month warranty, all the way through the 16s and 12s. The 5 year warranty apparently is something new for the so-called "Reserve" guns.

Jay

1,000's of U.S. made semi-custom RBL's have been sold during a
recession! That says something to me.

Also, I suspect there were no layoffs at CSMC.

Finally, if there is another manufacturer offering a semi-custom at this price point, I wasn't aware.

Ted, this gets so tiresome ... what is it that drives you to tell others that your personal preferences are superior? For me this is just a matter of how much time to invest in gun shopping. There's lots I enjoy doing more than searching for a 12 that fits me at this weight, when I can specify options on a new 16. Could you really think the difference in 1-1/8 oz. load performance in a 12 vs. a 16 is important? It's not to me, the chokes I ordered give me performance that's right for my kind of hunting. I also like being able to comfortably shoot lighter loads at clay targets with the same gun. What is there I should not like about this, except your strange comments?

I have both light and heavier 16's (6/3 and 6/12) and like them both equally well. Both are well suited for different tasks. As for the RBL, no other gun compares except maybe a new Ugartechea, and they don't come with the case and other options, and they aren't made here in the U.S., which is a huge selling point imo. Was it a success? I don't see how it couldn't be considered as such.

CMSC is apparently stamping the RBLs they are selling now as "Reserve" on the rib but I can't find anything to indicate any difference between those guns and the RBL "Launch" edition. The gun I bought (stamped "Launch Edition") was not custom-ordered but bought at their showroom last November, neear the end of the production run. Besides the stamp, I am not sure on what basis they would distinguish between a Reserve and a Lauch Edition for warranty purposes, other than they are charging more for the Reserves. (They appear to be charging a premium for
"immediate delivery," which is an interesting way of using a surplus to create economic benefit. Their marketing and pricing strategies are nothing if not creative.)

I discovered the source of my warranty confusion. I have a Caesar Guerini on order and its comes with a limited lifetime warranty. Again, my apologies if I misled anyone.

Just postulating Just postulating
Are the Reserves hand chased? Great way to recycle product that didn't quite pass after the machine work.
Again, Just postulation! But unlike auto parts (sent back or tossed), I have always wondered what the companies using the lasers choose to do with pieces that aren't quite right to start.

Some of their commentary on the Reserves says that they are hand assembled by the finest craftsmen, yada, yada, yada... Some of them are hand engraved, rather than just chased. Most of what they have for sale now is loaded up with options that raise the prices. I still like mine.

The original question actually hasn't been addressed


I'm not sure that the intent was to make a less expensive "British game gun." I've never heard anyone from CSMC state that or anything like that. I suspect, as mentioned above, that it was a way to finance a significant expansion in manufacturing capabilities while possibly making a profit.

As regards the guns themselves, basically the points, good and bad, are made above.
One exception - the reference to the RBL's handling better than the Parker Reproductions. That could only be due the gentleman forgetting to take the Reproduction out of the case before swinging it! (Just joking!) The RBL Twenty gauges handle fine (But no better than the Reproductions) But the 12"s and 16's handle like oars compared to the Reproductions.
I've had several of each. I now have no RBL 12's or 16's. I've only hung onto the RBL 20's and 28's, but I still have all of my Reproductions.

I think it would be pretty hard for anyone these days to duplicate the dynamics of an original Parker 16 on the 0 frame, although the Repro 2-gauge set probably comes closest. Brit game guns don't make the cut, just because of cost.

I can't remember how the original RBL pricing compares to that now listed for their Reserve models.

Can someone provide a comparison for base price and options then and now?

My 20 gauge with DT, splinter, straight grip, 3X wood and French grey frame (plus a blued trigger guard per my request) was about $2860 PIF, delivered to my FFL. Helluva deal. My 28 gauge with standard (very nice) wood, standard case color, and 30" barrels, otherwise the same, came in around $3450. Very good deal.

Replacement,

I think your 28 gauge was a helluva deal as well since Galazon's base price now for their Reserve 28 gauge is $4150 or $700 more. That's a 20% increase in base price.

I should have bought both a 20 and a 28 at the time they came out. Thought about them both but never did.

The only problem I had with my RBL 12 was too much game and not enough shells! It's over seven and yes it does get heavy tromping through the hills of Western PA, but I had my best season ever with this gun. I bought it with 26 inch tubes, double trigger, straight grip and splinter forend. It also has exhibition wood that is really sharp. It has the heavy and thick recoil pad that if I could go back in time I would have traded out for something thinner and lighter.

I looked long and hard for nearly a year at just about every double under the sun from Parkers and Repros to Ithacas and Foxes and a slew of English and Euro guns. In the end I just couldn't pass up a US made, brand-new in the box gun with removable choke tubes and a lifetime of gunning ahead of it. Before I bought my RBL my heart wanted a double with some history and stories behind it, but my head told me to buy something that I can (hopefully) get decades of service out of.
It arrived eight months after ordering and I have been totally pleased with it every time I have gone out (nearly 30 different hunts this year).

I'm also a one-gun man (at least until my next purchase!) so I wanted something as versatile as I possibly could get for my cash. My old Ithaca M37 never left home this year, and it might not until one of my sons need it.

Hi all, new to this place so please accept my being blunt. Might as well wet the post right away!

I think the RBL worked, There are a few leftovers but they are moving out. Most that own one, in all the gauges are satisfied to thrilled. A few are not. Much like any other product.

Some observations on the weight of the RBL 16's. Some are truly light. And most, are well, not. One recently advertised at 6# 2 Oz. didn't set long! Can we agree that that is light? Mine is 6# 4 Oz, balances 1/4" forward of the pin and does not feel like anything other than a nice handling gun. the same weight and balance point as a lot of Merkel 1620, AyA SL etc. in 16. Don't believe me? Do some research. As to Classic American SxS, some Fox and Ithaca Flues 16's will be 6# + or - an Oz or two, or maybe three. Parker O frame? The one I have handled was 6# 4 Oz and was butt heavy, not a good example and I am sure there are better balanced, lighter ones out there. L.C. Smith, good fortune to find one at 6#8! Most of the rest? Not anywhere close! 6# 16 Ga guns are not that common.

Asbestos suit at the ready!

Chief

Chief - I'm curious about your 6 lb./4 oz. RBL 16.

The 29" barrels of my RBL 16 are quite light at 2 lbs./12.5 oz., and the splinter forend is 9.5 oz. The frame is short and compact, the buttstock unnecessarily thick and heavy. Wrist circumference on mine is 4-3/4", and butt dimensions are 5" x 1-5/8". What stock dimensions do you have? I expect you have the buttplate, and likely the shorter 14-1/4" LOP?

I had them fit a thin Galazan pad which I'm currently using instead of the buttplate. This gets mine to 15" LOP and adds nearly 2 oz. net of weight - with the buttplate mine's a shade over 6 lbs. 8 oz. I could take more wood out of the butt to reduce weight and move the balance forward, but I like it as is. My hands aren't small, the thick wrist is comfortable for carrying with one hand while the other is parting cover or on the whistle to turn or stop my dog. And the comb thickness is nice on the cheek for shooting clay targets. Tradeoff is I did need to bend the stock for some cast off.

Jay

Jay,

The gun is actually a shade less! It has the standard 29" barrels, SG/SF, SST, HRBP. Stock demensions are 14 1/4, 1 1/2, 2 3/8 with 3/8 CO, (a small extra charge at the time) BP is 5 X 1 5/8 same as yours. I agree that the stock has a lot to work with. I am leaving mine alone but if I were looking to shave an Oz or two it's there. I stayed with the 2X wood and got lucky, a nice looking stock. I could use a slightly longer LOP but later in the season it was just right. I have no complaints on the wrist, I don't have huge hands but I'm not delicate either. To me, the wrist has nowhere near the clubby feel of a Berretta Silver Chunk.

I don't care for ejectors and I wish that they had been optional. I wonder about removing the mechanism from the forend. That should lose an Oz or two but I like the balance and don't want to change it. So I cover the barrels on opening.

If CSMC would have offered shorter barrels, extractors, a true SF and a more gracile stock these would have been very light guns.


Chief