does anyone have information on Robert Schuler. Type of guns he made and the quality. Who did most of his engraving and was he related to Agusta Schuler? Looking for as much information on this person as possible, Thanks

RickD:

Did you mean August Schuler?

Best,
John

No, his name is Robert Schuler, was a german gunsmith, did drillings between 1900-1930 i believe. I think he could have been one of Augusta Schuler's sons. Not sure though. Rick

Mr. Mann:
No, it was Robert Schüler of Köln/Cologne and I can't pin his lineage down. He didn't peddle any junk and most examples look to be upper end such as clamshell DRs. Interesting that he had that corner of the market in Köln. but I'm still looking.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have one of his drillings my father brought back from WWII and I have to say it's one of the nicest looking guns I have ever seen. I was wanting some information on him and the types of guns he made and how they are considered by today's standards. Gun is heavily engraved and has a lot of proof marks inside the receiver area with his name on top of the top barrel, it's (I believe) a 16 gauge on top and a 6.5MM on the bottom. Beautiful gun. Rick

[img]http://s915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/bdonova/Robert%20Schuller/?start=all[/img]


This is a link to the pictures of my Robert Schuler gun.

I did not see a "drilling" in the photos, unless somehow I was mis-directed to different photos. What I see is a combination gun, one shotgun tube and one rifle tube. That's not a "drilling." Looks nice enough regardless, certainly not spectacular by any means, has a few issues it would appear, but overall a nice combo gun and worth of not only adding to a collection of such guns but also determining the exact round to put it back into use. Likely a 16 gauge 2 1/2" shell,but the rifle tube is hard to read, almost looks like it says 8mm, perhaps an 8 x 57R, using a 196 gr bullet. Someone with a better photo editor and better eyes can be a better judge of that. Proofed in 7/26 it looks like. A chamber cast is certainly in order to make that determination. These German combo guns are commonly very good shooters. I have a couple that are very similar and absolutely love to hunt them. If you get tire of it and want to trade for something more functional, look me up.

My dear friend:
I understood that, but the inquirer asked if Robert were the son of AugustA. I was gently suggesting that he was mistaking August Schuler for someone that I don't think was known to be a gun maker/dealer, one AugustA Schuler.
The August Schuler that I am familiar with was active in the very late 1900s 'til sometime between WW1 and WW2.

I do not think I have read anything connecting a Robert Schuler with August Schuler of Suhl and environs.

But, for our friends benefit, I will say that I have never seen a German gun, in shootable condition, that was of poor build quality. They are good, better, best.

Flame retardant suit on and waiting.LOL

Best,
John

Ah, Mr. Mann I should have read your post closer and we all know you wear asbestos long-handles.





Krupp Cast steel tube but Wilhelm Kebler.







Same "RL" initials as on another current puzzle. "23" looks to be the assembly number and on the 2nd pic I posted is there another "23" with a "m/m" stamp above the "Crown" over "G"? My first guess is E. Schmidt & Habermann but there were others who were sourced.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Proof pic of the Miller & Valentin Greiß by Erdmann Schmidt & Habermann:





Robert Schüler combo:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'd say it is a E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 581(if with Anson & Deeley locks) but without a Greener safety.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Oh, my:

Pay attention, my friends. The master researcher of Germanic guns is on the case.

As I have said before, we stand in awe of this scholarship.

Best,
John

I think there was an article on the Schueler family in the December 1990 Deutsche Waffen-Journal but I don't have a copy.

Fred the Saxon: any direction for the publication?



E. Schmidt & Habermann were makers to the trade by I can't say that they didn't sub work to other craftsmen. I don't know who was E. Schmidt & Habermann's frame filer, or contract frame filer, but I almost can say that they mini-clamshell frame side reinforcement is a hallmark of E. Schmidt & Habermann.



With the non-script "Nitro" stamp, I'd guess it passed thru the Suhl proofhouse which really doesn't nail down "RL", or whatever, to a specific location. I guess it was just as easy to submit to one proofhouse as the other but I would garner a guess that most clients wanted the Suhl version.



By the way here is a pic of a Robert Schüler drilling which looks to have either an influence by Funk, Thieme & Schlegelmilch or both:


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The possibility exists that the initials "R.L.(script?)" are for R. Langenhan of Zella-Mehlis, a decendent of Valentin Friedrich Langenhan of Mehlis, then Zella Saint Blasii, gun and bicycle maker. But I'd put my money on Richard Luck of Gebrüder Luck founded by Franz August Luck in 1879. Post WWI Richard Luck had partnered with Ludwig Wagner which evolved into Luck & Wagner by the early 1930s. They too were into guns and bicycle parts. All hinges on the initials being "R.L.".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to mention that Greifelt had similar style side frame reinforcement and the longarm in question is also similar to the Greifelt Model 96(Model 94 w/ horn triggerguard bow). Both E. Schmidt & Habermann and Greifelt offered a clamshell action DR and pretty much used the same term "Stabil" so I don't know which came first or if E. Schmidt & Habermann was sourcing Greifelt for frames. Greifelt did offer offer a hammer version of the "Stabil" DR as a Model 258. I don't know that Greifelt offered a Pigeon SxS with the barrel extensions as sideclips but E. Schmidt & Habermann did as their "Diamond" model.


August Schüler was the younger brother of Friedrich Schüler and I'm guessing their father or grandfather was also named August. August Schüler took the reins of the firm in 1850 and had 2 sons, Friedrich & Oskar, to come up thru the ranks. Prior to WWI, Oskar Schüler left the firm; therefore, leaving the business to Friedrich and his son Richard, who may have become a master about the same time. So Robert Schüler just may be the son of Oskar Schüler and it was Oskar that established the foundation for the business in Köln. Info suggest that the Friedrich/August/Friedrich/Richard Schüler had one whale of a machine shop and that other firms had access to their machinery. That may have been the case but more probable is that the shop of Friedrich/August/Friedrich/Richard Schüler was sourced by other makers, including Robert Schüler, for components. There is info that hints that Robert Schüler had a shop in Suhl but I would say he used that as a marketing tool but only sourced the Schüler shop in Suhl. Post 1915, or later, Richard Schüler thru Fredrik W. Hollender of NY supplied many of the last Charles Daly examples.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A Bernhard Merkel catalogue is purported to have surfaced and in it is a "Stabil" Model 11 Bernhard Merkel offering with Poldi Anticorro tubes, so I attach even more probability to Bernhard Merkel as the source of the filed clamshell frames, which may have been forged at Sauer. Now there is a .450 Sauer clamshell DR or 2 out there. Hopefully someone will find a frame stamp hidden by the wood or components.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I think Dr. Prusok, the ASSRA archivist, has it.

I bought an old BBF combo ("vertical cape gun") in Germany back in December. Very little info, no picture, but the price was modest at about $300 so I took the risk. The gun came here today. It looks almost exactly like RickD's. Unmarked outside but marked WK in script on the barrels (Wilhelm Kelber?). Proof date 5/26 (?- a bit fuzzy) for May 1926. Serial number 15012. Rifle barrel marked 7.8/57 and 15g so 8x57 IR as marked on the sale papers should be correct; shotgun barrel is the usual 16g 65mm.
The frame is almost same as RickD's except two details: on mine the upper part of the clamshell is more curved, and there is an extra small screw securing the front screw. There is a single Greener crossbolt, on the right side. Following Raimey's research this should be a Schmidt & Habermann or a Greifelt design if I understand correctly. As I remember I once saw the same type of action used on a Borovnik Ferlach BBF dated to the 1930s.
With kind regards,
Jani

RickD's example.

An image similar to Jani's example


An image of an Anson-Kerner BBF combo similar to Jani's acquisition. Script "WK" would be Wilhelm Kelber so I wonder if he fitted the action. As I've stated before Axel Eichendorff holds that Wilhelm Kelber's script initials notes his making of the tubes and the "K" encircled by a heart shaped "W" notes the fitting of the action. I don't subscribe to that as of now. Somewhere on the tubes between the flats and the forend lug will be a set of tube maker's marks, probably a "K" encircled by a jagged image. I'm curious what the tube steel might be? With all the combos I'm curious if E. Schmidt & Habermann sourced Greifeldt for the frames as per their catalogues they offered quite a few O/Us usually with Boehler tubes? E. Schmiddt & Habermann is noted as a maker to the trade and I assume Greifeldt could have been but I haven't seen any info suggesting so. As usually more research is needed and I'm also curious what part the owners played and I think Paul was a master gunsmith. Was the Nitro mark in script? By the way these are of the Kerner - Anson & Deeley design being a rung or 2 about the triggerplate actions.

I mentioned earlier that I though that all Robert Schüler examples that I've seen were upper eschelon but upon reviewing my notes I did see a utility grade drilling at the 2009 Vintager's event as well as a double or 2 which were a bit about the utility status. Of course as usual I should have made better notes but I think the drilling had the initials "RS" on the underside which I would attribute to Richard Schüler and this assumption would strengthen the argument that Robert Schüler of Köln sourced Richard Schüler for his examples. But the same day I say the Robert Schüler drilling I also saw the Robert Schüler 600 Nitro clamshell and I guess it overshadowed the drilling.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The above discovered by Jani carries the mark "Original Kerner-Anson & Deeley Bock" and I'm all but positive that E. Schmidt & Haberman used that stamp which is usually found on the floorplate.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The above image I think is the Kerner-Anson & Deeley design, or something similar, with sort of what looks to be Merkel style pipe reinforcement. I'll have to check my notes or the source. About the only way I can think of to differentiate between the E. Schmidt & Habermann & Greifeldt, unless the mini-clamshell frame side reinforcement is different between the makers, is that Greifeldt had a unique safety that was akin to two "L" attachments one reversed on top attached to the trigger slide and another inverted and reversed that mates to the top one making a unique safety.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks, Raimey.
As for the drawing, the shape of some parts whispers "Ferlach" to me.
With kind regards,
Jani

I agree it does resemble Ferlach example but I think it is ole Kerner and apparently there was a junior and senior Kerner:


http://www.sportingadvertising.com/gun_details/emil_kerner.htm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Funk O/U - remember that Kerner & Funk had a short lived business(note K&F in top left position in drilling pic adjacent to "ah" of "Akah"??, which has nothing to do with the top O/U pic:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Another combo find by Jani which has the Sauer name on it as well as "Merco" so I have serious reservations that Sauer actually made it. Sauer had the mechanized section cornered and subed "one-offs" and other handmade longarms to firms that actually performed that type work. And another thing about E. Schmidt & Habermann: in their catalogue they noted which examples were machine made and which were hand made. I don't know how much stock you can put in that though.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks again, Raimey.
My 1926-vintage BBF that is unmarked outside except for Nitro (not in script) has also these markings:
KRUPP ESSEN on both barrels;
"double duck stamp"(?; somewhat like two reversed R's in O/U arangement) on each barrel. Meaning?
With kind regards,
Jani

The full rib address on the Sauer O/U combo above is:
J.P. SAUER & SOHN ZWEINIEDERLASSUNG BERLIN
Meaning of Zweiniederlassung is essentially Branch.
Merco is marked twice, on barrels and action.
-Jani

Jani:
If you could oblige me with some pics of the "double duck" stamp, I'd like to add it to my list. With what you've described and the following pic, it appears the "double duck" stamp either lies with Merco or with one of there forge sources. It may just be that Oskar Merkel used the "double duck" stamp-floorplate of the following:







from Cabelas: http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---glendale---merkel---1233166-mer860rs.shtml

So there are a few unknowns. The BBF just might have been sourced from Merco, or E. Schmidt & Habermann or Greifeldt sourced the same "double duck" forge. I'll transmit a few inquires and see if I can get a consensus on the "double duck".

Carl Stiegele of München Höf-Gewehrfabrik sourced Merco(Oskar Merkel) for example #3604 with a Miller single trigger.

I'll have to look a bit later but I think the Berlin branch was at Oscar Geyger's retail shop. So I'd say that the Berlin branch of Sauer at Oscar Geyger's retail shop had an order which was transmitted to Sauer for a specific example and then Sauer sourced Merco.

A Oscar Geyger peddled Oskar Merkel: (copy & paste) http://oldhuntingguns.com/Details.155.0.html?&no_cache=1&L=1&tx_fwwcat_pi1[showUid]=111

The Cabelas "double duck" seems similar to mine but the photo is not clear enough to be positive. And I do not have the photos of mine, yet.
Another small marking on my BBF is "M?O". There is something lightly struck inbetween M and O - but much shorter than "erc" (for Merco), and not in script; also O is twice the size of M. Anyway, my imagination says Merkel Oskar...
With kind regards,
Jani

It appears that the Sauer retail branch office at Berlin 8, Jägerstrasse 59/60(2 spaces?) in Berlin appeared on the scene circa 1910, possibly earlier, when Sauer won a top award at the International Hunting Expo in Vienna. At the time, Sauer was offering single and double rifles for those folks in the quest of a Dickhäuter(pachyderm?) and single selective trigger and separate ejectors look to be the latest and greatest at the time. Sauer continued at this address until the effects of the Great Depression forced them to close the retail outlet post 1927 and pre-1931, possibly in 1930. In the late 1920s, 1927 & later, models were retailed by Sauer but were sourced to Oskar Merkel(founded firm in 1908) and from this there seems to be some 3 cornered deal between J.P. Sauer, Oscar Geyger and Oskar Merkel, who looks to have been a staple of sourcing for Oscar Geyger. Some give that Sauer retailed Oskar Merkel examples but I think it went further than that and Sauer sourced Oskar Merkel for non-production examples. Sauer didn't seem to cotton to side frame reinforcement and I'd guess that some, or most/all, of such examples originated with the Merkel boys. Sauer used the term Zweigniederlassung and I would assume transfered their representation to Oscar Geyger at Berlin 8, Taubenstrasse 34 and then in the mid 1930s the term Zweigniederlassung evolved to General-Vertretung(sole-agency??) or Generalvertretung, which noted Oscar Geyger being their sole representative at large in the Berlin area. It was at this same time Oscar Geyger was located at Charlottenstrasse 53. Oscar Geyger would have been in his early 70s during this time and I guess him to have been born in say 1865; therefore, acquiring the rank of master by circa 1890. I believe he founded his firm circa 1895, possibly earlier as most of the time when a craftsman attained the rank of master they hung out their own shingle. So in the 1930s I would guess him to have been retired and his son, or heirs and assigns, continued the business and that's why we see the mergers, sole representation, and so forth of course along with the effects of the Great Depression.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse