....when they're not.
An English Best is rather simple to define.
How do some call a Birmingham boxlock, like an Evans, "a Best"?
Or a BLNE, "A Best"?

An English Best Gun is that for a set of reasons; certain features and workmanship. Not spin. It is what it is. All the rest, are not "bests".

And who might you be..the new Lowell Glenthorne? I suppose you're one of those that believe that a best gun can only be made in England..or if thats not enough, it has to be made in London, England to be labeled as a best??

Best is almost always these days used as a hype by a seller. Most who use it have no real notion what is and what is not a best gun. Some think old with a little engraving makes any gun a Best. Some seem to think every makers top grade is a Best gun. Not the case in all but the fewest makers. To me a Best gun in poor condition is a thing to be avoided as a endless money pit to make right.

"Best" means "Bespoke" means "made to order" means "without caution as to price".
"Off the shelf" means just that.
"Best" gets stretched alot when its a low end gun from a "best maker"

The term "Best" is often confused with tarted up today.
In the day when few could afford the most outstanding product of any artisan, craftsman or otherwise superbly skilled workmen, the best that they could produce was their"Best".
When money was no hindrance, a man would call upon a maker to provide his best effort to certain specifications. Materials, workmanship, design, fit and finish were expected. This was true in the tailoring of a suit of clothes, silver for the table, a vehicle (conveyance) and even the breeding of his dogs and horses.
Not many of us, today, could command a best effort from the high end marques.
We might settle for what remains of the glory days, when a man could, and did, produce with tools and hand, a product that would last a life time and more, to several generations.
It is not ornamentation that makes something a "Best". It is the design, and skill in executing a superior design, coupled with the most outstanding materials of that day.
Best,
John

Very well said Mr. Mann, (Epitome of LEG)

Mr. Rowley,
What "features and workmanship" constitute "Best"?

The term "best" had a meaning in an earlier era when there was a general consensus as to what was superlative in human character, art, literature and craftsmanship. In a time when folks think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder... "best" is best left undefined.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

I will continue to call my WW Greener 16g as being "best" despite it is nothing but BLNE. The reason is I have been informed by the current Mr Greener that it was the best grade available at the time of its making, back in 1880s (it was in the works for three years). Any objections?
With kind regards,
Jani

WWGreener made the Best boxlock, but it was Exibition Grade gun. Its worth 120 pounds in 1900.
The same with "Grand Russe" Lebeau-Courally boxlock. A&D action, Sir J.Witworth barrels made by the best English barrel men, its worth more, than SLE of the same maker.

"Best gun" was never exactly defined. It is a catchy phrase that sounds really good in advertising. However, the Brit gun trade did not come to a definition. It was/is generally understood that craftsmen worked to a price and most had enough production capacity to accept orders for less than best work/design/materials to fill their books. That is to say, most craft shops were quite happy and willing to supply whatever quality grade product the customer was willing/able to pay for.

Craft made guns are most clearly understood if you look at three characteristics: Brand Value level (BV), Original Quality grade (OQ), and Current Condition level (CC). BV represents a price premium assigned by the current day market and is not an absolute indicator of quality. OQ is THE indicator of quality; note that it is independent of maker's marque. OQ can often be identified from old maker's catalogues or advertising. CC is entirely dependent on the care and use the individual gun had during its life to date.

"London best" is most usefully understood as a certain style (SLE, stocked to the fences, no thru lumps, high % engraving coverage, high quality (but not necessarily highly colored or figured) wood); and assumed best workmanship. "Best work" should be understood as a gun made to a very high standard and priced accordingly. A "best work" gun can come with any maker's name on it. Many very fine craftsmen worked as out-workers (not a factory employee). Gun shops were typically run by master gunmakers. The Master's job included knowing who did high quality work, what was a fair charge for it, and who was available. Few shops had all aspects of the gunmaking process covered with in-workers at all times; gun orders cycled up and down and workers came and went.

So, the trick here is to learn to identify a best work gun based on examination, not on brand name.

As good a time & place to ask; if a gun was valued at 100 lbs in 1883, what would it cost today to produce a gun of equal quality? Taking into account all aspects eg. labour & material costs etc. A ball park $ value will suffice. Thank you in advance for any imput. --- John Can.

The exchange rate was about 5:1 so the gun would have cost about $500. $1 per day was a decent pay for a laborer back then, so that gun would have cost the average working Joe nearly 2 years pay.

Some time back, someone posted the following definition - "Handmade is not perfect - Best is just closer".

Where's the old Lord of Glenthorne ?

How long would that be for the average hOmeless jOe???...he has some nice gear...
Where is Lowell G??
Also if a gun was 100 lb in 1883..a gun of similar quality today would still be way too bloody heavy
Franc

LeFusil,
I take it by asking just who might I be, the new Lowell Glenthorne, that was not meant to be complimentary.

Best guns are best for reasons, many of which have been already posted here on this thread. All the rest, are not. No need to attempt to insult because you may not like that.

And, no, not all need to have been made in London, though most were.

Every company or maker out there produced an offering which may have been their best, yet, not be a Best Gun.

Seems silly to try to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, and also to think a gun which isn't can be one, by calling it one.

If I owned Darnes I'd be unhappy too....

Dustin is out of Darnes right now. I don't believe he has any regrets about them, and, if the right one came along, I'm pretty sure he'd be game, but, he is a lefty from birth, not from Momma dropping him on his head, like you, jOe, and a lefty Darne is pretty rare. I think I'll leave him mine when I pass.
Per usual, your facts are askew, jOe.
Another thing comes to mind as I'm sitting here thinking about you, jOe-a sleever, any sleever, isn't a best. It may have been, once, but, it 'ain't now.


Best,
Ted

See there's another Darne unhapppy guy....

So "London best" would not include (assuming the highest level of finish and workmanship) the Rigby 'rising bite' or the Boss sidelock, sidelever built on the Perkes patent.

Funny to find myself agreeing with Joe and not with Ted!

I took a friend's Darne out at Christmas and shot the longest string of misses I can ever remember. I missed ducks, pheasants, woodcock and pigeaons with equal ease. I consider myself reasonably adaptable as I shoot so many guns. I think myself to be of average ability, better on game than clay targets.

With the Darne, I dont think I could have shot myself in the head itf I had put the muzzle in my mouth.

I know some people love them but for the life of me I can't see why. The French should stick to making cheese and eating it while surrendering

The term 'best' is simply shorthand for a gun of the highest quality. Not all London sidelocks are of the highest quality but it takes a good bit of exposure and practice to work out a 'best' quality gun from a second quality one.

Looking at old catalogues by top firms gives some idea of features and pricing differentals.

'Best' guns can be boxlocks (Churchill never really made up his mind if the Smith boxlock 'Hercules' was his 'best' model or his 'Premiere' sidelock, or both).

Of course, 'best' hammer guns were the finest guns made, using the mechanisms available in their day, as indeed were muzzle loaders.

Before the 'stocked to the fences' style came to be universally adopted (around 1900), 'best' sidelocks were made that were not. Consider an early Grant sidelever or a Holland & Holland first model 'Royal' as examples.

Some very embellished guns are not best quality inside - they may have cheap Rogers or Baker locks behind the engraving.

Some makers offered a 'best' sidelock and/or hammer gun and then an 'Exhibition grade' or 'Modele de Luxe', etc as ever higher demand for frills, decoration and finery were made on top of the very finest workmanship, materials and operation.

An eye for quality is something some never obtain....Darne it.

Could you give some examples ?

Here are 2 reason why dealers label them "Best Guns"


First: "BEST GUN" is a great catch all phrase for us dealers to label it when we really are not sure of the model. We know its very fine and people will think more of it if we label it a best gun.

Second: Labeling a gun a "Best Gun" increases the selling price of at least 10%

Also, just like there is a group of buyers out there, some on this bbs that would buy a dog tird if it had an English name on it.

I am going to learn how to speak British as it gives credence on selling Enlish guns

Best


John Boyd

Well fellas, there you have it...Dig had trouble shooting a Darne so gather them up and lets have a bonfire. And the poo has really hit the fan now that Dig agrees with the "jOe". Now, that is scary .

I am an extremely average shot, like Dig I tend do better and enjoy more the shooting of game rather than clay. But I never had any real problems shooting the Darnes I owned. Even the V-19 20 bore I had with its short barrels, extremely light weight, was tough to break clays with, but boy did alot of Sharptails, Chickens, and Pheasants fall to that gun.

Here's an example of Darnes "BEST" efforts...

Thank you, Boyd, for again reminding us that there is a small segment among gun dealers that does its best to drive away buyers.

I think yobyllib define it well.

Best was just as the name implied, the makers best.

Even with the fancy embelishment it's still not a best.....Darne it.

I like Charles Parker's definition as found in their 1910 Pocket Catalogue (Exerpt taken from Ed Muderlak's book "Shooting Flying and The American Experience")Parker asked a rhetorican question: "What makes a 'best gun'?" the gun works answer:"The best gun is the one that combines the greatest number of good qualities, and which is built with regard to it's safety, continuity of balance, durability, unsurpassed shooting qualities, superior workmanship, beauty of outline, and greatest general excellence of it's performance under all conditions." 100 Years Old and, to me, still "On The Money."

George

Gentlemen(and of course "Ladies").What a Splendid thread! It warms my'Old London Gunmakers Cockles & Mussel" to know that the Quality that we'Benchworkers'from back in the 1950s-& 1960s, useing our Hacksaws, files,Hammers, Drawknives, Chisels,Chest-Brace & Chisels, Wheel-Brace, Linseed-oil& Lumps of Rottenstone, etc.and of course...."The Artistes"..Without whom the Gunmakers would never be able to sell their Un-engraved Lumps of Wood & Steel "Joking, of course there Lads"...C/C

Well Hello David! Haven't seen you posting around these parts for quite some time - unless I'm just not reading the right threads...

George, I think that quote captures the essence of the term "Best Gun" regardless of where it is made and by whom.

Dam-16.Still at the "Chippin & Chewin" Had some Heavy HI-End Shotguns to "Re-Build, Re-Furbish,Re-Stock, Reproduce. "Best-Guns"(& Rifles)All". Several Very Happy Collectors are Rubbing & Oiling their "Back to All Original" Examples of "Best Quality Guns" Built from the Period 1819 thru 1999..Had Fun on my visit to Jim Julia's with Cap't James Fender, The examples of "Best-Guns & Rifles can be seen on their website.(I hope they advertise here on Dave's "Site"??) This coming auction has some really Good examples of"BEST" American Shotguns, some in their original condition, both wood and metal. Some, sad to say, have been"Re-Furbished" to Non-Original patterns, shapes,and differ greatly from "Factory Specs."& photos taken of the Original Owners with the Original Gun. There is some nice Documentation that a Good Friend of mine has put in the auction to go with Ansley H. Fox Sr# 31088,The H.E 12b.....Several "Well Known Authors & Photographers"( Myself Not Included in this Group as I Stripped the gun down and shot"Good Photos of all the Important Parts) they are "Poo-Hooing"(Bo-Wooping) the gun as a Phoney!!!! To date I've spoken with 14 doublegunshop.com Readers and "Many" SSM. Readers about #31088..I think Fairfield Maine on March 15-16th will be a "Interesting Place to watch what happen's to an American"Best Shotgun" with Providence out the Ying-Yang....I would post photos but I'm still treadling my Lathe for power for the Wifes Computer!Posting Photos is beyond me. "Best" C/C

"Treadling your lathe for power"?? what happened, neighbor cut your wires?

From what I've been told by another who examined 31088 it's the real deal.

Dean that gun makes me as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

Tim

JMHO Tim, but I think it will be a "Bid with Confidence" auction on that gun among the few who have followed it and its provenance (and those who trust them) in the past year or so. But, like I said - JMHO

Dean

Dam16...The gun I examined with Capt' James Fender, (He was with me when I "Stripped down the Parker A1 Spl.that was (Or was-Not) Built for Tsar Nick, of Russia) The A.H.Fox #31088 is the HE that is Documented in Callahan's letter. I stripped the Action, Trigger-Plate, Trigger Guard from the Stock. I shot several close-up Photos just for the record, Serial No's all match. I had with me a Fox HE that I am "Up-Grading" with Barry Hands doing the exact engraving from a Wm Gough FE. I used it as a Ref.against the #31088. It seems that the "Doubting Thomas's"Dont seem to want to belive that this HE. "MIGHT BE" the Gun that went missing in Action those many Duck-Shooting Seasons Ago.....Should be a "Spirited Group of Punters" at Fairfield on the 15th March..C/C-dt

The truth remains the truth whether you believe it or not.

Best,
John