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Posted By: CBL1 Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/13/10 04:05 PM
I recently came across a 16 bore s/s by Josef Mischitz-Ferlach which I am currently drawing a blank on at every turn in terms of finding out more.

The gun is very well and ornately engraved, still in good condition, and with a serial number in the 29'000's if memory serves. It looked to be a sidelock ejector (could have been a boxlock with sideplates however) and I believe was Austrian given the Ferlach reference.

If anyone had any info/thoughts on this, it would be appreciated as intrigued to find out more. Not sure this maker is still in existence regrettably.
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/13/10 04:22 PM
Mischitz is an old Ferlach gunmaking family name. Josef Mischitz was still active in Ferlach after WW2 but I don't know when he went out of business; must have been decades ago. Give us proofmarks and you will get more information.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: CBL1 Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/13/10 04:28 PM
Pics included; sorry for poor quality but any thoughts appreciated. I see the Austrian proof marks for post 1945 guns, but any more information would be helpful.





Posted By: CBL1 Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 02:28 PM
Pictures added above.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 02:43 PM
Ferlach proofs overstamped with Birmingham as apparent. What are the marks ahead of the flats on the tubes(stamp of an Eagle?) and near the rib? I'm curious if Mischitz made it or sourced it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 03:12 PM
A very nice Ferlach double; possibly made for a British occupation officer just after WW2.
I think I see both the date .45 for Ferlach proof of 1945, as well as the code 29 issued to Josef Mischitz by the British after the war.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 04:17 PM
There appears to be a great deal of pertinent stamps on each tube ahead of the flats near the lower rib. I read the data string to be: "1016.45.D.290.45". I don't see a decimal between the "29.0" but it may be there as it is difficult to see. For some reason that Eagle conjure's up Cap's name. I could easily be mistaken.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: CBL1 Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I read the data string to be: "1016.45.D.290.45". I don't see a decimal between the "29.0" but it may be there as it is difficult to see.
rse


Correct on all counts - no decimal. Wish I knew what these all signified?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 04:46 PM
At the end of WWII in 1945, assuming there were only a couple thousand examples passing thru the Ferlach proofhouse as per the Nitro proof Ferlach stamp/NP sub F, #1016 would have passed thru in Summer of 1945 and as Jani indicated may have been made for a British officer. It was the Brits that established the maker number series. Then post 1954 the longarm was imported into England and there appears to be a date on the left hand corner of the left tube.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 08:25 PM
I think I see it now, Jani, "29.3(8??).45 on the left flat in the shadow of the forward lump. Would that mean that he only made 3(or 8) by the time this example passed thru the Ferlach proofhouse?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 08:48 PM
Raimey, almost anything is possible at that early date. Do we have any other early post-WW2 Ferlach gun to compare?
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: CBL1 Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/19/10 10:14 PM
Originally Posted By: montenegrin
A very nice Ferlach double; With kind regards,
Jani

Many thanks Jani - appreciated. I have tried to find out some details about Ferlach guns; most web information only seems to indicate that they are now v expensive bespoke guns of significant cost. Not sure this was the case in the post-WW era. Were Ferlach guns made more on a mass-produced basis at that time? Trying to get a feel for provenance/value of this gun.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/20/10 04:40 AM
Ferlach has a long gunmaking tradition and like the Bohemians of Weipert seem to have an influence from the Turks and Venetians in that they are true artisians. Many of the attributes attributed as being Germanic are actually from Austria such as the cheek pieces and deep relief engraving. Up until the time of the forming of the Consortium/Cooperative in 1885, with an Austrian gunmaking school being founded in 1878, Ferlach was one big custom gunshop even more so that Suhl. One craftsman’s shop made actions, one made tubes, one made bolts, one was a stocker, etc. The Consortium/Cooperative allowed the Ferlach craftsmen to embrace mechanization without the burden of the same expense of the same equipment at each shop; whereas, the craftsmen of Suhl utilized military contract to provide funding for sporting gun production. Some sources give that Belgian craftsmen were imported during times of high demand and upon completion returned home. But Wiepert wasn’t even as lucky as Germany and the individual craftsman, who didn’t want to embrace mechanization, fell prey to military production thru mechanization. I think it was the remote location, reputation as spread by king and court and the Consortium/Cooperative that allowed the craftsmen of Ferlach to hold fast to tradition of a bespoken gun, of which a “one off” of anything can still be made there today. Yes indeed they too experienced difficult times in say the 1860s when the craftsmen made ends meet by making eating utensils, household items as well as coffee grinders. I think it was then during the conflict with Prussia that they developed the foresight to go the sporting route, invest in mechanization and being a structured training program to all but guarantee the long tradition of handmade sporting guns. True there was a program in place for an apprentice, then for a journeyman to make a pretty big walkabout and then return for a 2 year stint with a Ferlach master. So an example made in Ferlach is nothing less than top-notch. Your example was probably made during the end of WWII and completed after the Brits issued the number scheme. At that time they used whatever components they could scrounge but I can't say that your sideplated boxlock seems to suffer any loss. Boehler steel stamp, which was a staple, but I'm still curious of the marks ahead of the flats.

Any chance you could glass those marks ahead of the flats and describe them, that is if those are actually marks on the inside of the tubes?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ejsxs Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/20/10 10:49 PM
Raimey and Jani,

I have a Josef Winkler 16 Ga shotgun from 1948. According from what the barrel flats show (my reading) reads: 1016.45 D330.45

So my interpretation is: gun Nº1016 produced by Joseph Mischitz . The gun entered the proof house with number 330 in year 1945. Meaby the first Nº was given prior occupation. Nº29 is the Gunmaker number.

Regards

EJSXS
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 10:07 AM
CBL1:
In the times of Austria-Hungary, Ferlach guns were considered good quality, but hardly "best". Production was large, over 10,000 a year or so, and most of the guns were affordable.
At the middle of the last century Ferlach gunds were considered excellent quality but were not yet overpriced as the working power in Austria was still "cheap". A few thousand guns made yeary.
Towards the 21th century, there were less and less gunmakers still active, less guns made, but the quality was high, with many extra fancy specimens made; also the reputation became legendary, and the prices went up considerably, slowely but surely getting out of reach for most hunters. Today the few makers left make a few bespoke guns for reach people who appreciate their quality and special flavour. Fortunately for gun enthusiasts like you and me, older used Ferlach guns can still be found for reasonable prices.
Here in central Europe an avarage used Ferlach double can be found for around one thousand euros, but an extra nice specimen like yours should easyly bring twice this amount; IMHO of course.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 10:33 AM
ejsxs:
I have a Ferlacher from 1948 too. It's not a shotgun but an o/u combo (BBF) by Franz Sodia. The funny thing is this gun in not coded. I checked another F. Sodia gun, from 1960, and that one is not coded either. BTW F. Sodia's code should be 33.
In other respects my 1948 gun is marked as expected.
My theory is that Franz Sodia, being by far the largest maker, allways marked his guns with full name and address so he managed to avoid the coding.
With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Geno Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 10:54 AM
Jani, could you post Austrian gunmakers code list?
I had one before, but virus got it all 2 years ago.
Posted By: ejsxs Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 04:18 PM
Geno

here you are: http://www.hallowellco.com/Ferlach%20gunmakers_code_numbers.htm

Regards

EJSXS
Posted By: Geno Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 05:13 PM
There is problem, I can't see this site.
Posted By: ejsxs Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 05:31 PM
CBL1
Can you describe in more detail the markings on the barrels right by the flats in your gun? I have the suspiction that are the same as in my Josef Winkler. Perhaps it is also the local marking for Böhler.
BTW, the barrel-flat emsemble is strinkly the same in my gun as in yours. Mine is one described by Thomas Garwood as entablature lump. Besides it has also one lump crossing the frame and a Greener cross bolt extention.

Regards

EJSXS
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 09:43 PM
20 = H. Scheiring( Düsel earlier)
21 = Johann Fanzoj
22 = Josef Hambrusch
23 = Karl Hauptmann
24 = Josef Just
25 = Josef/Martin Kruschitz - Retired
26 = Jakob Koschat - Retired
27 = Simon Kalischnig - Retired
28 = Peter Mischitz - Retired
29 = Josef Mischitz - Retired
30 = Josef Orasche
31 = Michael Pegam - Retired
32 = Anton Sodia - Retired
33 = Franz Sodia - Retired
34 = Johann Sigott - Retired
35 = Walter Outschar
36 = Wincenz Urbas - Retired
37 = Benedikt Winkler
38 = Master Gunmakers Guild - Genossenschaft der Büchsenmachermeister
39 = Gunmakers(Technical/Trade) School - Fachschule für Handfeuerwaffen
40 = Ludwig Borownik
41 = Johann Michelitsch
42 = Josef Winkler - Retired
43 = Thomas Kulnig - Retired
44 = Walter Gratzer - Retired
45 = Erich Achatz - Retired
46 = Josef Schönlieb - Retired
47 = Lorenz Schaschl - Retired
48 = Johann Fanzoj
49 = Franz R. Schmid - Retired
50 = Franz Schmied - Retired
51 = Gottfried/Josef Juch
52 = Valentin Roesenzopf’s heirs and assigns
53 = Wilfried Glanznig
55 = Herbert Scheiring

Jani:

I'll have to look as I've tarried long in the early proof rules seeing that it appears that all tubes were proofed with a lead sphere possibly with a diameter of 0.5mm(max) less that the diameter of the tube. I wonder how they proofed choked tubes and if they did any pattern check.

ejsxs:

Can you email me a pic of your tube marks?

One note is that the craftsmen of Ferlach when sourced for price-point longarms would make price-point longarms and when they were sourced for bespoken longarms, they could provide a bespoken longarm. They also had a talent pool and could provide what the market would bear.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: CBL1 Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 01/21/10 09:57 PM
Originally Posted By: ejsxs
CBL1
Can you describe in more detail the markings on the barrels right by the flats in your gun? EJSXS


Thanks to all for the fascinating information - very helpful. I will seek to take some better pictures in the next week or so and post up. Expanding the pictures doesn't provide a lot more clarity so back to the camera work. Will also try and get some choke/bore measurements on the barrels and try to use the gun before the end of the UK season on Feb 1st!
Posted By: billhiggins Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 02/01/10 12:07 AM
Here is my Ferlach, inherited from my dad. It is a Franz Sodia, and is relatively new, 1968 if I understand the stampings, although they are puzzling to me.





Up until reading these posts and examining the stamping, I had thought it was much older. Since it was my dad's, I will never part with it and it will pass on to my son when I do likewise.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 02/01/10 02:34 AM
The intertwined "EF" on the individual tubes is the preliminary mark for Ferlach. The "NP" sub "F" is the nitro proof at Ferlach and possibly final proofmark by later rules? The 2 headed eagle was either the mark of a final examination or a 3rd proof if required and should have a "1" on the breastplate. "216.68" would be the 216th example thru the Ferlach proofhouse in 1968. I would guess the "15087" to be the serial number. "12/70" is the bore & chamber length. And Boehler Blitz is of course the steel type and I think it was a rung below Antit.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: billhiggins Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 02/03/10 12:45 AM
Thank you so much for your help, Raimey! I intend to take it over to the range for a couple of rounds when the weather abates. I am in Charlotte.

Good luck,

Bill
Posted By: CBL1 Re: Josef Mischitz - Ferlach? - 10/06/10 08:19 AM
Originally Posted By: montenegrin
CBL1:
Fortunately for gun enthusiasts like you and me, older used Ferlach guns can still be found for reasonable prices.
Here in central Europe an avarage used Ferlach double can be found for around one thousand euros, but an extra nice specimen like yours should easyly bring twice this amount; IMHO of course. With kind regards, Jani


Jani - I hope your honest opinion is accurate therefore as I am placing the gun for sale with Bonhams this coming Dec sale! smile Will be interesting to see if there is any interest in this market as these guns tend to be quite a specialised area of the auction market in the UK.

(Moderators - please remove this if it is against forum rules as I am not trying to drum up a sale.)
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