Check it out on my blog:

http://dogsanddoubles.com/?p=281

Neat gun.

This blog is a non-commercial hobby of mine. I've resolved to do more with it in 2010.

We'll see how long it lasts.

OWD

Good God!

See the "260.00" price penciled on the case label?

I don't know how to date a Reilly by the label, but I'm guessing it's from the early 60's.
I'm also guessing that it may have been converted from pinfire, possibly a rebarreled rifle...
See those fences?
See how shallow they are?
Note that they have typical pinfire-action 'shields'?
The hammers don't quite look 'right' with the rest of the metalwork, and I can see a hammer strike mark on the top of the right fence, evidence of the firing pin guides on the standing breech faces - since filed/stoned off...

Whatever it was to start, it's cool as can be right now - pity on the rust but someone will be putting it right...




Cheers
Tinker

Thanks for the heads up. I bid but wouldn't go to the required amount without inspection. $5170 including buyer's premium. It will be one screaming gun when filed up a bit.

Since no one has any skin in the game, what do you think a restoration would run for this fine old waterfowler?

The rust may peel right off, be easily removed with files and emery, or not. Barrels restruck. Forend iron would need cleaning and reengraving. Forend wood needs stripping and reoiling. Price, very little to a whole lot. My estimate, somewhere in the middle. The price allows for a lot of work.

Very interested to see this Reilly as I own an 1870 hammergun by the same maker and am keen to look into a Reilly 8 bore to use sometime in the future here in the UK. The label showing the Rue Scribe address would imply a manufacture date around 1870 and there are several facets of the action similar to my 12 bore which was made 1870/1871.

CBL1-





Is this the 1870 hammer Reilly you speak of?




These action fences (and the action type) and most other details are completely different.

Do you have another Reilly?
If so, can you post images?


For others in this discussion, here are a couple images of the 4-bore that the orig post brings to our attention...






What you appear to have is a rounded bar-action sidelock snap-action straight-wrist gun.
The 4-bore is a back-action (with sliding stalking safeties...) jones-underlever pistol grip gun that very well may have started life as an 8-bore pinfire rifle.





Cheers
Tinker

What does the 4 bore weigh; barrel weight?

what did it go for?

Brian: $4,700 plus the vig.

Best Regards, George

Wow.

Someone likely got a really great deal on a project with great potential and character.




Cheers
Tinker

Good grief, guys. I posted the price way back in the thread. $5170 including buyer's premium. The back end of the gun appears to be in extrememly fine condition, maybe unused since the conversion. Look at the wood to metal fit! I couldn't get excited enough to keep up with the bidding because of the scant breech walls which indicated a rebore from eight gauge. Of course, a real preservationist may reconvert to eight gauge rifle by sleeving and have quite a machine. I love those stalking safeties and Jones lock.

Eightbore-


I'd figured that's just where you stepped off the bidding.
Didn't know (myself) that the bidding stopped there.






Looking at the photos, I'd been thinking that this gun had been handled (some time ago) by 'one of those guys' who has screwy skin PH levels.
You know - the guys who leave rusty fingerprints on EVERYTHING they touch...
The forend wood looks like it'd been soaked in water though - hard to say exactly what happened.






I own a two-barrel set where the gun barrels are 12-bore and the rifle barrels are 16-bore.

Looking at the standing breech, the 'witness marks' on the metal of THIS gun appear to show a fair bit of use with two different diameters of case-head.
Re-bore? I'd thought re-bore from rifle first before I saw the barrel length, my next thought was re-barrel - there's always the possibility that we're seeing 'what's left' of a two-barrel set.
The existing barrels (could be re-bore but I doubt it - lots of meat at the muzzles!)
have classic pin-fire period 'flash marks' engraved at the breech tops.
They also have little filler wedges dovetailed in where the firing pins would protrude.



I think this particular set of barrels may just be original confituration.
Hard to say without the metal in the hands though!




Also missing from my head-scratching is a view into the case.
The lid-label is neat and all, but I really would like to see how the innards are configured and how they've worn over the years (and the years 'yonder...)





Cheers
Tinker

I think I see a couple shells & a cleaning brush peeping over the rim of the case. Has anyone ever bought from this company?

Just Wondering......George

Tinker, there was available a view of the case. It is water soaked on both ends and pretty disrupted inside. The part holding the stock section is dry. The muzzles could be almost as original with the breeches bored to four gauge. I still don't like the thin breech walls. George, the auctioneer told me that there were six or seven four gauge shells and some other stuff in the case. I had asked if it was truly a four bore, not an eight. He then told me about the shells.

Bill: I'm looking at a couple of my 8 bore English guns: A J. Braddell and a J. Beattie and the breech walls on them are no thicker that what is shown on the E.M. Reilly. These guns were built for black powder, hence low pressures. Perhaps it was originally built in 4 bore.

Best Regards, George

E.M. Reilly 4 bore arriving today. Where should I send the barrels for removal of rust and refinishing ?
All advise will be appreciated.

Best Regards, George

Well the old girl arrived this afternoon well packaged. Condition is as I expected. The surface rust on the barrels, I believe, can be removed without losing much metal. The action is like new (a little rust on the edges of the buttplate). Unexpectedly the bores are bright with no pits. As was stated it appears the case had contact with water on both ends as did the barrels. I am taking her to Jim Kelly at Darlington Gun Works tomorrow, (I just can't stand to see her in such sad shape), for estimates. I would like to hear from the board, especially from those who posted on this thread, as to possible experts for restoration. I know it won't come cheap!

Best Regards, George

I am glad to hear your 4 arrived safely. Do you have an overall weight for the gun and the weight and length of the barrels? Here is a chart from Frank Findlow's DGJ article Some Thoughts on 12 Bores". Eventhough it is not about 4 bores per se, I thought you might find the pressure table interesting. It looks like a very rewarding project, I envy you.

That's great news - congratulations.

Besides having the bbls cleaned up, what else are you going to have done to it? It sounds like that's all it needs.

I can recommend someone in the US to restore the case.

OWD

George, Several years ago I visited Darlington Gun Works and spent some time with owner Jim Kelly. Based on my observations of their workshop and inventory of guns [some restored], why not let Jim restore the 4 bore?

O.W.D, TINKER, EIGHTBORE, ROMAC, CBL1, PM, BRIAN & ROY HEBBES: I'm going to Darlington Gun Works & Jim Kelly tomorrow, Friday, & get the word on a total restoration: Barrels, buttplate & wood.
Surprisingly the bores are in very good shape. The action is almost like new. I believe that it is an original 4 bore. The breech walls are in excess of 3/16th inches. I'll let Jim weigh the gun and the 36 inch barrels and I'll post the figure. Six live 4 bore Winchester cartridges and one empty, wood sectional cleaning rod, various brushes & lubricants. It does appear that the case came in contact with water on both ends, but otherwise the gun appears to have been well maintained. I would like the name of someone to restore the case.

Best Regards To All.......George

Congratulations, George. Good luck with the resto.

I drove up to Jim's last Saturday in that bad weather to take him a double to repair. I think he'd do you a grest job, if he'll take it on.

Are "we" gonna shoot her after she's done?

Stan

Stan: I'm headed over there now in the rain to get the word. You better believe that we're going to shoot her when she's done.

Best Regards, George

I'll gladly make the drive up to Lexington to touch off a "right 'n left" with that old girl! It won't be off'n a bench, though, I'll be on my hind legs!

Stan

Hi George, Have you considered sending it to the uk ? I have a few contacts in the uk that have restored a few d/b 4 bores and made a fantastic job the last one being a ge lewis it was in a right state but looking at it now you would think it is all original and not tampered with . Bob

George's gun does not have to go to the UK. It is in very good original shape except for the outside of the barrels. This is an easy restoration. I was a phone bidder and am disappointed that I didn't stay in for the duration. Maybe George will keep me in mind if he decides to sell or trade.

Hello: Stan, Bob & Bill: Well, I left the old girl with Jim Kelly yesterday for a complete renovation. I have always been pleased with his work and have seen other guns, such as Purdey & H&H, that he has restored. Bill is right, the major problem is with the barrels although the bore is very good. Jim showed me where the gun was converted from pin fire and he believes that it was originally built as a 4 bore. I know that it will take awhile but I will let you all know when it is done. In the meantime if you're in the neighborhood stop in a Darlington Gun Works and see the work in progress. I don't think that I'll be selling it anytime soon, but you never know.

Best Regards To All, George

No problem george , nice gun and a snip at just over 5k dollars i buy a lot of big bores and if i had know about it it would have cost you a lot more belive me. cheapest d/b 4bore in rough condition would cost you a min of 20k dollars in the uk
Best regards Bob

Bob, Bill & Stan: I believe what happened was this old girl was relegated to a damp basement after her owner passed away. He obviously cared properly for his gun, but somehow it got wet on both ends. All the old tools, ramrod, brushes, oil bottles, etc. are still in the case which also needs restoration. I'm going to try to get some background info from the auctioneer. Do any of you know who might have the E.M. Reilly records?

Best regards, George

George,
Did you ever get the specifics of the gun: weight, chamber length, barrel weight?

George, there is a serious Reilly collector on the Custom Rifle section of this forum. Post over there and he will answer your questions.

George, The Reilly records seem to be lost. The company was acquired by "Riggs for Sports" who stated their intention to continue to use the Reilly name on guns; from the illustrations in the Riggs catalog which announced the acquisition, I'd date it well before WW1 (high wheel bicycles are shown). Whether Riggs even got the Reilly records when they bough the name would be pure speculation.

Send me your mailing address, and I'll mail you a copy of that catalog.

tbuffum@bendbroadband.com

Those stalking safeties aren't too common on shotguns. You think it was originally a rifle ?

PM: I'll get Jim to do the measurements & post them.

Thanks Bill: I'll post a note over there.

jOe: I asked Jim about that & he believes that it was originally a pinfire SxS shotgun. 36 inches would be a bit long for a rifle, don't you think?

Best Regards, George

George, my friend Terry Buffum is the person I was referring to and you should utilize his information. He is a dedicated collector and researcher. Good luck. Bill Murphy

Might've had another set of barrels or been rebarreled into a shotgun.

http://dogsanddoubles.com/?p=281

I looked again....I'm having trouble seeing it as ever a "pin fire".

I just received this bit of information from the auctioneer when I asked him for any background on the gun:

"It came from the Robert McDevitt Estate from Binghamton, NY. They owned the funeral home in Binghamton since the 1800's. they left $80,000,000 in IBM stock to LeMoyne College and the Catholic Diocese of Syracuse as they had no children. You can google their name to see the press that they received when they left the money last year after Mr. McDevitt died. His mother was the first secretary to the first President of IBM and accumulated IBM stock over the years. They lived very modestly on LeRoy Street in Binghamton, NY. The gun was found in the attic next to the train set that we sold for $9,900 at our New Year's Day Auction. If you google E.M. Reilly you will see an article from an auction in the early 1900's of one advertised in an auction in England. It stated the gun cost 50 English Pounds when it was new. I believe that would be comparable to about $5,000 in today's money. I believe being in the attic might have caused the rust. Hope this helps. Bernie Brzostek"

Another piece of the puzzle put in place......George

Joe-







Two things give it away as a pinfire action.
First thing is the fence detail.
Second thing is the very shallow section of the standing breeches.

Could definitely have either been a two-barrel set (and the present case either made later or it could have been delivered with two cases) or it could have been set up at some time with the shotgun tubes.
I'm fairly certain that the existing barrels were originally set up for pinfire ammunition too.
I'd a much better (in the hands would be best) look at the tops of the breech end of the barrels on the chamber-tops.
I expect to find dovetailed steel where the pinfire firing pin cuts were originally.


Cheers
Tinker

The fences do look odd...

I'm seeing what appears to be re-bounding locks with stalking safeties that appear original to the gun.

My Chrystal ball is kinda cloudy this moring....but from what I see it wouldn't surprise me too much if she had never been fired.

Tinker & jOe: You're right & you're right. Craig Lovelace has been kind enough to provide me with a brief history on the E.M. Reilly Company and Terry Buffman is sending me a catalogue of Charles Riggs & Co. who bought Reilly in 1917. MORE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE FALLING INTO PLACE!

Best Regards, George

george, could you post or PM an email to contact you. I have a 8 bore E.M. Reilly back action hammer shotgun that is very similar to yours except the stalking safety. I have been able to date my gun to 1871-1876 and would be interested in sharing info to help both of us.

thanks

Bill

Gents, see this link -

https://www.ukdata.com/company-credit-reports/E-M-REILLY-_and-COMPANY-GUN-MANUFACTURES-LIMITED.html

..which would imply that the UK company records and no doubt entitlement to the name are held by a firm of accountants here in the UK. They may even be commercially available for purchase

With Reilly guns, you can often date them from the addresses on the top rib. My 12 bore hammer has the address in both London and Paris (2 Rue Scribe), which I believe dated it to 1870/1871 along with other indicators such as the hammers and the wedge foreend.

I recommend a small subscription to the Internet Gun Club which has full histories of many makers and is fascinating.

Also see this interesting article - http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/em-reilly-and-friends

Hello Bill: My E-Mail Address is palmettotreasure@aol.com. I look forward to hearing from you.

CBL1: Thanks for the info. I will try to seek them out.

Best Regards, George

George, here is a bench mark value for your 4 bore.A double 4 bore hammer gun, by F.Gates,Derby, 4 inch chambers, 36 inch damascus barrels,both cylinder bored, Birmingham Black powder re- proof. Jones underlever, length of pull 14 3/4, weight 17 1/2 pounds; in canvas case was sold at Bonhams,London,29 July 2009, lot130, for 16,800 pounds!

Thanks Roy! It looks like I might have gotten a pretty good deal after all. I'm going to have Jim take all the measurements and I'll post them. As an aside, I wonder what an original Winchester 4 bore high brass loaded with #4 coppered shot would be worth?

Best Regards, George

George - as a benchmark, 4 historical Eley four-bore cartridges went for £148 at a recent Holts sale. So basically nearly $65 a pop.

I have shot clays with an 8ga.

Long crossers with a 4 bore would be a grand thing.

Well done on your purchase!!

CBL1: Thanks again for the info. I wonder when Winchester stopped making 4 bore cartridges?

Mike: Thanks, I let you know when it's done & ready to light two off.

Best Regards, George

For those who might be interested: I spoke with Jim Kelly today and the barrels to the Reilly are now "in the white" and he has sent them to the engraver to be touched up. I forgot to ask him to measure & weigh the gun but I will as soon as the barrels return. It seem that another recently sold at auction for about $40,000, perhaps without the rust.

To OWD: Could you e-mail the name & address of that someone to restore the case. The leak in the roof didn't do it much good either.

Best Regards, George

George,
Thanks for sharing. These old girls a few and far between. I would like to note the weight of the gun and the barrels when shes back together.

CBL1, do you have any idea when the last Eley four bore shells were manufactured? Maybe they are still being manufactured, but I don't know. I have a recent gunbroker offer of a beautiful box of Eley fours. They didn't sell in the auction that I recorded, but they have probably sold since. At $65.00 apiece, that would be $1625 plus the price of the empty box.

I may be wrong, but I think Eley stopped production of eight and four bore cartridges in the 1980's and they don't manufacture them anymore. Bonhams sold 49 4 bore cartridges for £750 or $1,200 or thereabouts in July 09 (Forty-nine 4-bore cartridges, including forty-three cartridges by Eley-Kynoch in their original cardboard cartons along with one by Eley Bros and 5 reloaded cartridges). $65 a cartridge therefore does strike me as pricey.

Alan Myers, here in the UK, makes new 4 and 8 bore cartridges to special order, but I have a sense the price is considerable. Again - happy to be proven wrong here - but I thought they were getting on for £25 each new, or £500 per box. I saw a couple of boxes next to a brand new H&H 4 bore recently at their shooting ground here in London.

CBL1,
Is there a source for 4 bore plastic cases in the UK?

PM - not sure, but Markethunter on here may be able to provide further input. The usual solution I have seen in the past is the use of 4 bore brass cases, which I think can still be made to special order.

Also try dropping a line to "Double Four" who is a new member on here from the UK; has posted only on this thread, but is real expert/afficinado on the big bores and uses a double four on the foreshore.

Craig

Postscript - try this; http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/page7.html

Eley stopped making them in the early 80's for sure, though they do still seem to turn up occasionally but big prices are asked.

The Alan Myers shells are very expensive as CBL says, plus there's no way to get them over here without breaking the shipping laws. I've shot geese with Alan and visited his shop, he's one of the leading experts on big bore shotguns in the UK.

At one time he sold all plastic 4 bore cases for reloading but I've been told that he no longer does. I've not spoken with him in quite awhile so have no idea really, that's just what I heard.


Destry

George,

I have a very close friend who owns and operates a production machine shop with several CNC machines that he uses to make large runs of parts out of aluminum, steel and brass rods of all sizes. Want me to ask him what he would charge a "friend of a friend" to write a program and turn out a batch of all brass 4 bore cases?

I think he would do it, especially if he could do it sometime when one of the machines isn't running. He's a double gun nut, too.

Stan

Stan: That would be great if I can afford them. I have two brass 4 bore cases that I bought from John Farugia, of Cheshire Gun Room, Stockport, in England if he needs one for a model. I do plan to shoot the thing once it's done.

Best Regards, George

Be sure and take a chamber case before you go to much trouble. Four bore chambers aren't usually standard sizes, they vary a lot.

I talked with my friend and he said that those cases are "cold headed". That is, formed cold under great pressure with a die, so that there is no material waste. He said if he were to machine them the material cost alone would be from $2-$3 each. Before any machining was done. He seemed to think it cost prohibitive. If you're still interested I'll talk to him some more about it.

Stan

Two or three dollars a shell is not a big material cost. George, if none of this works out, buy ten cases from RMC. I use their eight gauge cases and they are beautiful and take a regular 209 primer. If you get the cases from RMC and don't like them, you can probably sell them for most of what you have in them. Murphy

RMC, $150.00 for ten, a drop in the bucket. How many do you really need? Get them to send you one so you can see how well they fit in the chambers of your gun.

Well Folks I picked the E.M. Reilly 4-bore double up from Jim Kelly's today and I must admit that I was overwhelmed. I had no idea that he could turn that rusty old gun into a "thing of beauty" but he did just that. IT IS A KNOCKOUT! I've never posted pictures here but if someone can clue me in I will certainly do so. I always knew that Jim was an artist but this time he outdid himself. I'm planning to bring it to the Vintagers (to show, not to sell).

Best Regards, George

George, I knew, when I was bidding, that this gun would be a very successful restoration project. As you know, I was a bit hesitant to pay the big bucks because of the rather thin breeches. I'm sure that is not a problem. Someone on here would be glad to receive the pictures by email and post them for you. It just isn't going to be eightbore. See you at the Vintagers this time, I hope. Murphy

George, If you send the pictures to me at couse3pt@cox.net I would be happy to post the pictures tonight.

It would be great to see this old beast. Do you have the weight of the gun? What is the bore diameter?

So George, now that she looks so good and all, have you changed your mind about shooting her?

Stan

The gun weighs in at 12 pounds 4 ounces. Bore diameter is 7/8 inches. Wall thickness is .035 & .037 inches. Chamber are 4 inches. I will shoot her if I can find some suitable cartridges. I'm not planning the shoot the old ones that came with her. I'll talk with the RST folks at The Vintagers to see if they can come up with some. I'll be e-mailing Phillip som pictures.

Best Regards, George

Bring it to Vintagers! I want to see it.

OWD

George you might try Tom Armbrust for some 4 gauge shells. He has a book he sells called 4 and 8 Bore Shotguns and loads. On page 70&71 he lists the loads for a 4 bore. He loaded me up 100 8 Bore loads and they are excellent.

George's BIG 4 BORE.

Your restoration turned out very well. She is quite a grand Lady. At 12lbs 4oz I wouldn't want to shoot her with much more than 6 or 7 drams of black or a tad less. You might want to call Roland Huber (603 267 8227), he may have a few cases ready to send now and you know about Rocky Mountain. John Millar can make reproduction period reloading tools to load your own and they look good in presentation with the gun.

You won't find suitable cartridges for sale here in the US, they just aren't out there. RST doesn't even fool with 8 gauge stuff which might actually have a slight market so I'd imagine they won't be of any help with 4 gauge which has zero.

As far as I know, the only person in the world that has a loading machine and does sort of "production" 4 gauge shells is Alan Myers in England. He had a die made to mold an all plastic case and loads shells into them on special order. He doesn't sell the cases empty anymore as far as I know, he just sells loaded shells.

There would be no way to ship loaded cartridges from there, you'd have to fly over and pick some up then fly them back. Last time I saw him he had a couple boxes he'd brought along to shoot at geese in a Rhoda double 4 bore. I believe the price tag on the lead loaded ones was £225 for 25 cartridges. And yes, that's the pound symbol not the dollar symbol. There's no guarantee they'd fit in your gun anyway, 4 bore chamber sizes vary wildly.

Your only chance will be to buy brass and load your own, it's just that simple.



Destry


P.S. I think Armbrust had a few of the Myers made plastic cases at one time. You might try him I suppose.

The light weight of the gun seems odd for a 4 bore shotgun.

Are the barrels serial numbered to the gun...and could we see proof marks ?

George,

That is amazing. I saw the gun at Jim's earlier this year, right after you dropped it off and before he began work on it. Hard to believe it's the same gun. Congratulations on a job well done. I'll tell Jim next time I see him.

Let me know if and when you decide to shoot her. I'll ride up and take pictures if I can, and if you don't mind.

Stan

Roland is quite a person, I would look forward to doing business with him again just for the experience! Product was good and fairly priced too:)

7/8" bores are a lot closer to 8 bore than 4 bore....I would certainly recommend a chamber cast, that would be a forcing cone restriction I would not think would lean towards good patterns, fiber wad sealing priorities or not.

And should the cones be stepped or very steep, it would be good to know...did I miss what the proofs were?

4 bore chamber, 6 bore barrels that seem kinda common?

Best,
Mark

The 4's do vary quite a bit, 4 bore chamber, 6 or 5 or 4 bore diameter. Gun weights are variable also. Perhaps the bores are a bit more than 7/8? If you can't turn up any casings, let me know I might part with a couple but as stated above they will probably need a little work to fit them to your needs.

12 lbs for a 4 bore....most 8's weigh that.

Something fishy going on some where.

I have a single barrel 8 bore that weighs almost that much. Maybe this was a 4 bore featherlight. Good for a covey of grouse with each barrel.

I agree with earlier post... Tom Armbrust is the man to talk to. A true gentleman and possibly the most knowledgable big bore guy in the states.

It's definitely a 4-bore. It came with six loaded & one empty high brass 4 gauge Winchester shells. I'm going to weigh it again & precisely measure the bores and chambers.

Best Regards, George

George
You certainly have an exceptional gun-looking forward to seeing
it next Friday at the Vintagers. Will bring some material on
G Abbey who was an excellent Chicago Gunmaker
Reguards
Bill

Well if it came with those shells then there's just absolutely no question is there. *laughs*

It's some kind of a double rifle that's had a big bore shotgun barrel added to it at one time or another. At 12 pounds it certainly didn't start life as a four gauge fowling piece.

I've shot single four bore guns that were 14 and even 16 pounds, the lightest double I've ever seen was in the 14 pound range and it had the barrels cut way down.

I'm not saying it's not an interesting gun, it is, but lets call a spade a spade here. It's a gun that's had something big done to it at sometime in the past, it did not begin life as a 4 gauge shotgun.


Destry

It is fun to speculate the hows and whys and the thoughts of the previous owners of these old guns and what they had in mind when they put the gun together. I remember one 21 lb 4 bore rifle with 3" chambers, the weight seems excessive for the load you could stuff in that case. Other guns may seem overly light, but maybe not for their original intended purpose.

These guns come in alot of sizes:
10 ga 12lb 5 oz-have 2 other 10's @ 12lb
Have 2 double 8's 10 lbs even-not conversions
10 Hammerless 7 1/4 lb on the other end-original

MarketHunter I'm sure the heavy 12 you mentioned was a
Fred Abbey 12lb-saw the gun. Have seen another-same weight

M/L Conversions are lighter and often can not tell they
are Conversion-which may be the case here. To me it
doesn't really matter-still high quality workmanship.
Bill McPhail

Thanks Bill, PM & Destry: The 4 gauge shells do fit nicely into the chambers. I only have bathroom scales to weight it. I'm going to try and find some more accurate ones. The bores were measured with a ruler. Jim did measure the wall thickness as noted before.

Did you notice that the old girl began life as a pinfire and was later converted to centerfire? Would that make a difference in the weight?

Best Regards, George

Whatever it started out as it is one helluva nice piece today! Some one expended a good deal of skilled craftsmanship and another a good deal of money on this fine old gun.

RHD45: You're Right, It weren't cheap but it was worth it. Now I'm going to try to get the case restored.

Best Regards, George

George-


You'll find the way to a proper load for it.
The proper vernacular for that chamber/bore combination is "YOURS"!!


Congratulations.
If I make it out to your end of the world, I'll make sure to ring you first, so that we can get out and run that gorgeous beast!





Cheers
Tinker

According to W.W.Greeners book,"The Gun",4th edition, published in 1888; Guns chambered for 4 bore cartridges may have bores sizes stamped as 4- 5/2- 5/1- 5- 6/2- 6/1- 6- 7/2. Whilst the measured bore size determined the the provisional proof charge.Surprisingly, the service charge is stated to be the same for all bore diameters,namely:- 9 drs powder and 3 ozs; of shot!
Refering to my earlier post in regard to the "Gates' double 4 bore; this gun has 36 inch barrels, 4 inch chambers . The weight of the gun is 17 pounds, 8 1/4 ozs.
This very fine, origional condition, gun sold in 2009 for 16,800 pounds stirling.

I'd like to see ol' George try that charge in this light duty fowling piece. I think he'd probably wear the gun home. *laughs*

I've fired a few rounds of 3 ounce loads out of a Holland & Holland double four bore at high ducks. But that gun was built like a cannon, weighed about 15 pounds. Quite a gun, and quite an experience I can assure you.


Destry

Going to the Vintagers Next Friday, bringing my 4 Ga P Mullin
Single-48 in 20lb 4oz. If anyone wants to shot you are welcome-
Just bring your shells -I have none. Will bring some 8's and
have shells for them.
Bill McPhail

Hello Bill: I ring you up when I get there on Friday. I'll bring the 4 & a couple of 8s as well.

Best Regards, George

George.. I hope you get the $50,000 Firm price you're asking....that would be a very nice profit indeed, after the 5 grand price, + restoration cost mostly on the rusty bbls, eh?
Nice one
franc

Franc: I really don't want to sell it. Restoration was costly but well worth it.

Best Regards, George

I figure he'll be "asking" for a long time.

George, Didn't mean any harm by my comment, just read what I said, & it sorta comes across weird
Gun looks Pisser , though...ay????
franc

Franc: No harm taken. Gun came out better than I had hoped for. Reading the article in the current DGJ on big bores I've got to get some cases made that I can load with ffg black powder and light it off , just to see how bad it hurts.

jOe: I know it's not a valuable 311 but it's the best that I could do.

Best Regards, George

George not sure if you're aware of this fact but everyone that's into vintage SxS's is not just trying to make a fast buck of another mans stupidity.

Is the 311 comment supposed to belittle me ? (If it is it only works in your mind )

I wondered when the "price" would be quoted. Pardon me while I chuckle.....

DLH

jOe: No offense intended. I am well aware that you have considerable expertise in antique doubles.

Destry: I have decided not to sell the Reilly and am taking it off my site. Enjoy your chuckle.

Best Regards to Both of You.........George

At $50,000 I don't think there was ever any threat of selling it. Big double four bore shotguns do bring that kind of money in the UK but not bored out double rifles with super thin chamber walls.

DLH

Destry: My Reilly began life as a shotgun not a rifle, according to Jim Kelly the gunsmith who restored it. The chamber walls are over 3/16 inch thick (I wouldn't call that "super thin" by any stretch of the imagination)Do I detect a bit of envy here?

BTW: I have left the description and pictures on my site but marked the gun: "NOT FOR SALE"

Best Regards, George

If it did then it sure didn't start life as a 4 bore. It's bored out from something smaller, that's why the chamber walls are so thin. And yes, for the pressures that you're dealing with on a 4 bore charge, I'd say that 3/16 is just a bit over tinfoil.

Jim Kelley? Is he an expert on big bore British shotguns? If he is then I'd very much like to speak with him as I like to discuss that sort of thing. Tell us all about him, how many of these has he worked on in the past?

If you want to talk about envy shall I send you pics of my Churchill double 8 gauge that weighs about 16 pounds and has chamber walls approaching cannon barrel thickness? How about pics of me shooting driven ducks with a Holland & Holland double 4 gauge in England? No George, I'm not even slightly envious of your bored out double rifle.


DLH

Destry,Well, I didn't start this pissin' contest, "my blank is bigger than your blank" but until proven otherwise I'll stand by Jim's assessment of my gun (especially since he has seen it & you haven't)I am attempting to obtain the original information on my gun from the successors to Riggs & Co. who bought Reilly in the early part of the 20th. century. I too, have two eight bore doubles, a Joseph Braddell of Belfast and a James Beattie of London, and they weigh in at @ 15 pounds each (the Braddell being a bit heavier). I haven't had the Reilly properly weighed and measured but I will do so at the first opportunity I would love to see pics of your Churchill 8 bore & of you shooting ducks (I didn't know that you could drive ducks) in England with a H&H 4 bore. I really like my Reilly four and apparently, judging from the numerous posts here,many other knowledgeable folks seem to like it too.

Best Regards, George

BTW: You can reach Jim most weekdays at The Darlington Gun Works Phone (843)393-3931 Jim learned his trade as an Air Force gunsmith in Germany at the end of WWII working side by side with Master German gunsmiths. I'll take his evaluation over almost anyone's. I'm sure that he would be more than happy to discuss my gun with you.

*shakes head*

I can see the chamber walls pretty clearly in the pics, I'll stand by my tinfoil description. And you said it weighed what? Yeah.....

Also those safety catches on the hammers would tell anybody that knew anything about big bore shotguns all they need to know.


DLH

"did it rattle?" Those "safety catches" are properly called STALKING SAFETIES which tells me all I need to know about those who make grandoise claims of knowledge.

Best Regards, George

Yeah, that's exactly right, and they don't put them on shotguns. What use would they be?

I didn't use the phrase because I figured you weren't familiar with it.

DLH

I dunno. If I'm scoring that last round, Destry wins it with his roundhouse right to the kisser regarding the stalking safeties

I'm not the one who said "safety catches" which to me means hooks & eyes. Destry, don't try to guess at what I'm not familiar with. I've lived a long time and in places you've only read about. I don't claim to know it all, but I do claim that I know who to ask. Prodigious pronouncements based on a picture tends to follow an inflated ego.

Best Regards, George

George why do you have 300+ English Cracker barrel (wall hangers) SxS's listed for sale....Was that part of the learning process ?

I need to put this special date in my journal... Destry AND HomelessJoe on the same team. All I can say is... Good luck George L. good luck.

I Am Sorry I Brought This Thread Back.
Franc

From our friend George the expert on British sport and sporting guns:

"I didn't know that you could drive ducks"

Another brilliant quote:

"I've lived a long time and in places you've only read about."

Yes George, you're absolutely correct, I've never spent any time in an insane asylum.


Destry

Any idea what the gun went for?

jOe: Sorry for the delay in getting back to you but I've been busy selling those "carcker barrel guns" Sold two today. Buy 'em for a dollar, sell 'em for two or three. After awhile that 2 - 3 percent will add up.

Thanks Ironman: I need all the Good Luck I can get.

Franc: Seeing as how it turned out I'm kind of sorry that you did too.

Destry: At least I'm man enough to admit what I don't know. Some of my good friends right here on the Doublegun BBS are lunatics (no names mentioned of course) BTW: How do you drive ducks? Do you do it with African beaters, bullwhips, or tennis raquets?

Professional: I bought it for a little under $5,200 & paid Jim $2,500 for restoration.

Best Regards To All, George

Whenever I drive ducks I usually put them in a child restraint seat in the back of my car, that way they're safe if we quack up.

PH: I LIKE THAT ONE!!!!!......George

It's referred to as rallying ducks not driving them

I'd like to hear Smallbore's take on this one.

What say ye, Diggory, did the English ever put "stalking safeties" on shotguns?

jOe - I believe the term in Britain is "flighting" ducks on a baited pond, generally at last light.

In the USA "rallying ducks" is getting them off the water with a boat and is illegal in most places...which could easily be termed as driving them.

I CAN IMAGINE DRIVING, FLIGHTING OR RALLYING DUCKS WOULD BE A LOT LIKE HERDING CATS!

BEST TO ALL.....GEORGE

Tudurgs - inland duck flighting (not to be confused with wildfowling/waterfowling on coastal marshes) is generally undertaken at first or last light, on a pond/ponds which may or may not have been fed ongoing during the season. For those ponds which are fed to attract the wild duck, it will generally tend to be grain or old rotten potatoes to attract the wild birds to feed and establish themselves there.

I have flighted duck for many years and it can produce absolutely terrific shooting with all-wild duck - as long as the conditions are right (i.e. plenty of wind), and crucially, as long as the flight pond is not overshot. Shooting it any more than once a month (in general) can cause the visiting wildfowl to desert and seek quieter hide outs. In short, a good flight pond is worth its weight in gold and to be cherished.

Duck driving is, in my view, entirely different. Although a flight pond can be "driven" - for example during a driven pheasant shooting day - a driven duck shoot will generally be of a mix of reared and wild duck and is often a component of a formal driven days shooting. Duck this way can be presently superbly and could be every bit as challenging as driven pheasant (there are several shoots here in the UK which specialise in this and deserve their quality reputation); however, I have equally seen the other end of the spectrum where semi-tame duck reluctantly take to the air with much shouting from the beating line and thereafter gain very little height. At this stage, I generally sleeve my gun as I have no desire for this kind of shooting.

CBL1 is correct in all he says.

I'd just add for completeness that duck, woodcock and geese can be lawfully flighted under the moon in UK when cloud conditions allow. It's the purest form of the sport IMO; no decoys or driving, just getting into the right place at the right time with a good dog.

It can be done on ponds, but I prefer the extra bit of challenge that rivers and estuaries provide with truly wild birds.

The shooting is fun, but for many including me, the dog work is the real reward. In common with many I train my dogs at night especially to develop the required skills.

Eug

CBL and Eugene,

Thanks for saving me the trouble of explaining all that, you did it better than I ever could.

The driven duck shoot I participated in was interesting in that they didn't start shooting until the ducks had left the ponds and started drifting back in up to half an hour later. The birds were high and very sporting, a really challenging shoot. I didn't feel overgunned with the double four bore and killed what was probably the longest duck of my life with the gun.

I've shot geese under the moon in Scotland and it was one of the most memorable events in my sporting life. The big Churchill in my hands, only being able to see them for a split second as they crossed directly over me, a quick double shot, then listening hopefully for that heavy thump on the sand behind me. The joy when the spaniel loomed out of the dark with a greylag or pinkfoot in it's mouth is hard to describe to someone who hasn't done it.



Destry

Moonflighting is indeed a magical experience and I was fortunate enough to experience it on one of my first outings after geese. Sitting under a flight of over 2000 pinks pouring out of a field and then gradually flighting back downwind in small groups over the next 2-3 hrs was an experience I shall never forget. After reaching our imposed limit of 3 geese each, we called it a day and watched as pinkfoot after pinkfoot zoomed overhead under the full moon and wispy cloud. Won't forget that in a long while - although I would have sorely loved to have had the double 8 churchill to try!

A lighter gun would have been a better fowling piece for the job actually. At about 16 pounds, it isn't real fast handling and the shooting was. The moon wasn't full so the light wasn't the best, you could only see the geese as they were directly overhead. You had to keep the gun near ready when you heard them coming, throw on a fast lead and just pull two quick shots, sometimes after they'd passed into the dark. Hundreds of geese flew to my right and left that I never saw, I had shots at just a few flocks but did manage to hear that magic thump more than once I'm pleased to say.

I got to flight woodcock once in the dusk and dark too, that was equally amazing. I'd killed one on a drive earlier in the day and then managed to make a miracle shot at a long billed shadow just as everybody was starting to walk back to the vehicles so I can say I've killed them both of the classic ways. I wear the club pin of the syndicate I shot with on the collar of my jacket to this day. Everytime I run my finger across it I remember that moment like it happened yesterday.

If I've told either of those stories on here before you'll have to pardon me. The conversation just brought them to mind and I'm always willing to tell them again.

DLH

Destry, You're going to have to write a book on your waterfowling experiences one day. You have been doing things that most of us will never get a chance to do,but would love to read about. Plenty of pictures please.

Lucky for sportsmen most of it has been outlawed in the USA.

The gunners in the UK are just as keen as we are and those types of gunning still being legal hasn't hurt the game as far as I could ever see.

DLH

I am not sure why outlawing moonflighting or other of the established and historical wildfowling practices legitimately allowed in the UK (i.e. puntgunning, use of 8 bores and larger) would necessarily make life better for other "sportsmen" given that

- most wildfowling clubs here are struggling to find members (new entrants are tough to find)
- there are probably less than half a dozen regular punt gunners in the UK in total
- moonflighting is wholly dependant on conditions; remember that there are are only 5/6 full moons in a season, most of which won't be suitable.

Most people who I have shot with have little or no experience of wildfowling, tending to shot driven game or rough shoot inland. Therefore, the impact of wildfowling on bird populations, disturbance etc generally continues to be very low level and is likely to continue to be so.

In the field what you guys do and what we do are worlds apart...most of what real hunters hunt here is wild game taken under fair chase meathods from what I've read most of what you guys hunt is kept game like is offered on pay to hunt reserves here....nothing more than an optical illusion of what hunting is about.

Ps...Destry your ego is too big to see very much.

Then I suggest Joe that you get on a plane over here to see what the countless number of rough (i.e. wild bird) shooters and wildfowlers do because I assure you, it is about as far from reservation hunts as it could be. I would also be interested to know what you have been reading to provoke the statement above.

On a wider point, I posted information on here about how some shooting is done here in the UK because I genuinely thought it may be of interest to like-minded people. Frankly, if all I get is offensive comments such as this - which are absolutely unwarranted - I won't bother any longer. I have been "hunting" for 25 yrs since the age of 10 and I don't need anyone to tell me what is and is not acceptable.

Craig.

P.S I lived in the US for 6 yrs so am not entirely unaware of what US sportsmen do.

Craig,

Joe is like most uneducated idiots you run onto, all he knows about anything is what somebody told him. He's never been anywhere or done anything but feels free to pass judgement on the information or lack thereof that he thinks he has.

I've been over your way more than once, shot driven game and on the foreshore. I can speak from experience, what you all do is just as sporting as what we do here. Joe is a know it all that actually knows absolutely nothing, pay no attention to him as he's really not worth your time.



Destry

Funny how I think like US Game and Fish regarding what's sporting....


If eYe were you but I wouldn't call anyone an "idiot" sweety.

Awww Joe that's so sweet, you saved a picture of me on your computer. I shudder to think what you do when you look at it late at night....

As far as caling somebody an idiot, I only called you one and you've proven it so many times it doesn't even really need pointed out. Making that grand sweeping statement that all hunting in the UK is like an "optical illusion of what hunting is all about" is so stupid and without merit as to be hysterical.

You've never been hunting over there, all you know is what some other idiot told you while leaning on the stove at the feed store.

It's not all tweed caps, Purdey shotguns, and driven pheasants. For the regular blue collar folks it's shooting wild game under similar condition to how we shoot it here. Even the driven shooting is something to be admired if it's done right, at least much more than the put and take shooting like we have here.

They don't just turn those birds out of cages 15 minutes before the guns start going off. By law they can't be penned up after they're a few weeks old, they're raised running loose just like wild birds. They feed them and do major predator control to keep them from wandering off to the next farm. It's a science how it's all handled and run. The amount of effort that's taken to put on a good driven shoot is incredible compared to the put and take game stuff that's run here.

So yeah, I'll definitely stand by my statement that you're an idiot.


DLH

....And I'll let yer picture stand as you being an idiOt

Ps...I didn't save your picture I just copied and pasted it

I brought the E.M. Reilly down to The Backwoods SxS event today & had several of the more knowledgeable dealers there take a look at it. The consensus was that it was built as a pinfire 4 bore sporting gun around 1870 & a little later converted to centerfire, probably by the maker. The bores both measured .894. I still don't have an accurate weight but I plan to do that this coming week on postal scales.

Best Regards, George

Knowledgeable dealers.....that was comical

Well jOeY: What about Kirby Hoyt of Vintage Doubles, Steve Barnett of Steve Barnett Fine Guns & Dave Powell of Guns International, to say nothing of Jim Kelly of Darlington Gun Works who has probably forgotten mor about gunmaking than all of us put together will ever know!

I don't think that I'm the one that's comical. I think that's thou!
No make that pathetic.

Best Regards, George

It's a shame those boys couldn't be more copacetic....