Sauer s/n, crowns and cavemen on bbl flats and tubes.

37xxx (1890) - 2 crowns, total 5 cavemen. (2 small and 2 big cavemen on flats and 1 big caveman on bbl tube). Cape sidelock gun.
55xxx (1895) - 2 crowns, sign Thuringia on flats
74xxx (1898) - 2 crowns and 2 cavemen on flats
74xxx (1898) - 2 crowns, 3 cavemen on tube and 1 large caveman on flats, sidelock with clockhand indicator.
75xxx (1899) - 2 crowns and 2 cavemen. Hammer 20G gun.
----------
99xxx 1902) - 2 crowns SEPARATED (not side by side, 1 larger to the left and smaller to the right), 2 cavemen. Sidelock.
100xxx (1902) - 1 crown 1 caveman, sidelock with clockhand indicator
103xxx (1903) - 2 crowns separated 2 cavemen.
103xxx (1903) - 2 crowns separated, 2 cavemen. Meisterwerk mod.18
110xxx (1904) - 2 separated crowns, # of cavemen ?
----------
114xxx (1904) - 1 crown. Hammer mod.2 double
136xxx (1907) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen. Hammer mod.2
145xxx (1908) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen. High Grade hammer 12G mod.5
151xxx (1909) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen. Meisterwerk mod.18E 12G.
151xxx (1909) - 1 crown and 2 cavemen on flats
153xxx (1909) - 1 crown, 1 caveman. Drilling
157xxx (1910) - 1 crown
159xxx (1910) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen. Hammer 12G mod.5
184xxx (1912) - 1 crown 2 cavemen, mod.8
187xxx (1912) - 1 crown and 2 cavemen on flats
214xxx (1914) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen
227xxx (1924) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen
245xxx (1926) - 1 crown 2 cavemen, mod.8
267xxx (1928) - 1 crown 2 cavemen, mod.8
267xxx (1928) - 1 crown. Low grade Habicht 12g.

If you have some info to add, plz do it.
Now it looks like the number of cavemen determ the quality/grade of Sauer gun and seems one or two crowns depends on period of time.

Geno:

I like your thinking. Also if possible indicate whether a cape, scattergun, drilling, double rifle, etc.

I think the single caveman on each tube and the single on each flat note completed by Sauer. The stack of a series of cavemen may indicate quality.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

funny that a couple of recent guns surfaced all this great info, thanks to all I am storing this in my memory bank!!

In the case of multiple "cavemen" , what "quality types" might be addressed? Best regards, JBP

My 1931 VL&D 16 ga Sauer; ser.#261xxx has two cavemen and two crowns on the flats; one crown on left barrel and one caveman on the rib.

I guess I have to post some pics.

First pic TWO CROWNS and 1 caveman (invisible on this pic) on the left part of flats and 3 cavemen on the right part of flats


Second pic ONE CROWN to the right and 2 cavemen on each part of bbl flats


Patriot, by s/n your gun got 1 crown I guess. Could we look at bbl flats of your gun? There are must the same two crowns on receiver flats. If not probabaly your gun got barrels from early gun.

More Sauer's

s/n aprx 245xxx mod.8 1926 - 1 crown 2 cavemen

I'm going to ad new data to the first post.



267xxx (1928) mod.8 - 1 crown 2 cavemen

Well, once again I'm learning that I need to take better notes and as usual data compiling is going to take some time.

16 bore Sauer(55k serial range) with THURINGIA on left flat & 2 large crown stamps on the right flat so if the crowns are for city/state why the duplicity of crown & THURINGIA? The craftsmen weren't going to expend any more effort on an example that required to complete.

I did find a pre-1910 double rifle with 2 large crowns retailed by Heinrich Scherping and made by Sauer and I'm all but positive it is Mike Hart's. I'm curious if right about the large crown stamp are the words: "THURINGIA IN(???) SUHL"??


The purported quality "Caveman" with a "Staff" stamps may refer to the overall effort on the example as they are usually on one tube only, very near the lower rib and stacked in a sequence. Somewhere I have a couple examples with a sequence of 3 and 4 "Caveman" with a "Staff/Club". One will usually see a single Caveman on the tubes and/or on each individual flat and many times early on the trademark of the caveman will be found in the following sequence: Imperial Eagle, Caveman, S&S(early form) & lowercase gothic g. This sequence is many times found on the tubes. Now the purported caveman quality mark sequence is independent of the sequence and of the marks on the flats noting assembed by a mechanic at the Sauer plant.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

16 bore sidelock with clockhand cocking indicators with what looks to be a series of 3 "Caveman" with a "Club" stamp on the underside of the left tube along with the 2 crowns on the right flat and what looks to be a larger "Caveman" with a "Club" on the left flat.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thuringia as principality was part of princedom Prussia. The same with princedom Saxony. I believe the truth somewhere in between all these princedoms of Germany. Suhl is the city in Saxony/Thuringia and can't have crown of its own, princedom can.
Not sure about cavemen as Sauer finished mark on flats and tubes, not enough data yet.

Romans called German cavemen with club as Barbarian

12 bore sidelock with clockhand 100538 with single crown on left tube and what looks to be a single "Caveman" with a "Club" on the right as well as left flat noting assembly by a mechanic, O.K. Barbarian, at the Sauer plant. H. Krieghoff, Lindner and others had marks that held similar positions, sometimes on the tubes and sometimes on the flats.

Sauer #34521 has the 2 crowns as well as Suhl at the rear of the right flat and Sauer on the rear of the left flat. It is a Model 5 with Eduard Kettner's name on the toplever.

Yes, we've got several hundred to go, if not an even thousand.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

My 1914 Sauer 16ga Serial 205682 is same as Geno's pic with one crown and two cavemen and caveman top of exposed lug and each barrel on top marked Fluss-Stahl.

Well, I missed the 'large' part of crowns. Mine just has small crowns over a 6.

Are the small crowns beside the Imperial Eagle on the tubes ahead of the flats? Would there be a "S" below them and is the 6 of the "6/31"?

Another observation is that an example in the assembled/completed/final state stamped with a "Crown" over "B" usually has a single Barbarian on one of the tubes and a single Barbarian on the flats.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The 6/31 I believe to be the mfg. date.
On the left tube there is a small crown above a 6 beside the eagle. On the right tube there is a faint eagle; possible the crown and 6 didn't take. The faint eagle is about a third inch in front of the 6/31.

There also appears to be crowns over the U on the flats.

The "6" you note is actually a "S", which has a crown atop and couple with the Imperial Eagle notes preliminary proof with shot.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

You are correct; I had 6 on my mind.

Now it looks like 1900 was breaking year, when 2 crowns been replaced by 1 crown only.

Why is it just when you think its figured out something comes along and screws it up? Sauer 16ga #103850, 2crowns, 2 cavemen on flats, 1 on bottom of lug, Krupp barrels.

Jim A

James, did you note crowns on your gun located not side by side, but one is on the left and second is on the right side of flats?
This is very unusual and I think it can't break the list

On James' gun it looks like they are two different types of crowns.

My Sauer is #142635, made for American market ("Made in Prussia"), 16 ga., I'm told a Grade 1.

I caveman on each barrel flat and a single crown on the left flat.

I did notice that the crowns are on different flats, however they are the same crowns as shown on the ones with 2 crowns on the same flat, This gun was made for the European market as it is marked 'J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl on the top of each barrel. Notice also it has a dolls head extension rather than a Greener cross bolt.

Jim A.

Geno:

I don't think any examples that I've posted are mine so I pulled the pic of #100xxx into a view and it appears that there is a larger crown on the underside of the left tube so it may be surmised that after serial number 100,000 the crowns may have been separated.

I wonder if J. Stephens has handled Sauer #10000??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Instead of confusion you may be leading up toward a date at least. There's also at least 2 stamps of a Barbarian(Caveman w/ a staff) ahead of the flat on the left tube.

Thanks all for the effort and I'm sure this will not be a short exercise in futility.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

What also puzzles me if it is is supposed to denote some state type stamp is that I haven't seen both on any Tell, single shot or bolt gun. Of the one on drillings I can really remember, all were on the extractor of the scattergun tubes, or on the side of tube above/adjacent to the lug.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Cate gives Sauer #103,221 as a Model 11 for retailer "EWD. K. TRYON JR & CO. PHILADELPHIA" and notes the Krupp Fluss Stahl tubes "are marked PRUSSIA and have 2 quality Crowns showing." but he doesn't indicate if they are together.

Then on Sauer #110,084 he gives it as a 12 bore hammergun with "Prussian crowns(one larger than the other on the bottom of each chamber area." which I take to mean that the crowns are separated.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

one more double 227xxx (1924).
Looks like 2 crowns or later 1 crown is not quality mark, probably all Sauer's guns had it at time. Not sure about low grade models such as Habicht etc.

Maybe it was a quality GECO or Habicht??? I've also noticed that at some point the position of the smaller crown on the underside of the right tube is occupied by the script intertwined "SuS". Another note is that Sauer tubes sourced by Carl Grundig, Ernst Steigledger, etc. typicall have the words "FLUSSSTAHL - KRUPP - ESSEN" followed by a vertical "Caveman" with a "Club" in a type of oval stamp.

The above example has the initial "M"(maybe mechanic's last name) adjacent to the "Caveman" with a "Staff".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I see your point. There is a large crown and a smaller crown with lines. My gun with just one crown has the smaller of the two as does the other single crown guns. Does anyone have a single, large crown?

I havent' seen an example, or pic of an example, with only the large crown. Mr. Cate gives Sauer #146331 as Krupp's and taken from the Krupp Villa noting that it had one large crown but I supsect that it is the smaller of the 2 crown set and its position to be on the left tube flat.

And another items is that early on the set of crowns are found on the watertable as well as the flats.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

One more 1 crowned hammer Sauer gun mod.2, no caveman I can see.
114xxx (1904)

Upon 1st glance I don't see any either and the detail with the crown makes it the smaller of the set. However, there is some mark forward of the Sauer "S" ahead of the serial number which seems to resemble a "Caveman" with a "Staff".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

184xxx (1912) mod.8 - 1 crown 2 cavemen

You know, I've have to import the image but I can't say that the crown isn't the larger of the set. If the outer detail is as it appears, along with the cross(??) atop, it looks to be the larger of the set. The more I stare the more the crowns seem to multiply and change shape.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looks to me there are different crowns. The standard, most common one seems to be the top one in this picture.


The bottom one in the above picture is the larger crown, it has the appearance of "fur"on the top.

The last one Geno shows seems different still, like the first but more elongated lobes.

Yes, there is not doubt there are 2 different crowns. But it may be the stamping effort that makes them look different.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Perhaps you can get som information from the pictures in this Swedish tread.
http://forum.robsoft.nu/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=56672

Low grade Sauer gun Habicht made in 1928
1 crown, NO cavemen.

Geno:
You are somewhat possesed in your excellent hunt/effort and have confirmed in my mind what I thought prior to the thread. The large crown is for superb craftsmenship while the small crown is the extra effort in the patterning effort of the tubes. I'll see if I can locate the exact verbiage from the Sauer adverts.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So what's wrong with superb craftmenship after 1904 at Sauer?

I'm waiting for photos of Meisterwerk mod.18 made in 1925. As I remember there were only 1 crown.

Geno:
You know there weren't any quality Sauer examples after 1904, don't you???? No, I think it had something to do with hand effort vs. mechanization regarding craftsmanship. Sometime between 1900 & WWI, or 1912, Sauer may have switched to different marks noting the different processes because they had to due to the fact that less and less hand-work was being performed and more and more machine work enabled them to keep their prices lower. Components arrived in a state closer to the end result. Less handwork/effort on a tube for instance would bring the cost down and choices were slim because they had the process streamlined. Id guess it would take 30 days to fill an order and if you wanted a different tube length, the price would increase 10 - 15% as would a higher grade to tube steel probably by 50 - 100 marks. I'd also say an increase, or decrease, in LOP or stock would net you a 10% increase. If you wanted a sub gauge smaller than 20 a 10 - 15% price increase was added. When mechanization really took ahold, Sauer had production down to a science and anything outside of their configuration slowed or halted production. When Sauer would sub a longarm to say one of the Merkel folks, they would ask/request that the parts be had made. I really don't think the request was met?

Let's see that Meisterwerk.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have one with the two crowns, a large and a small one and two cavemen in the 103xxx ser# range
I've been working on it for a few years now, was in rough shape when I got it, trully superb craftmanship and engraving on it.
It's one of my favorites

Best

CJ

For what it's worth, VL&D stopped importing Sauer firearms in 1904 as well. The highest serial number was 108449.

I called to good friend to Moscow, he got mod.18E #151xxx (1909) and high grade hammer Sauer mod.5 #145xxx (1908). Both guns bear only one crown, smaller one and 2 cavemen. He promissed to send me photos as soon as he gets to his PC, there is holydays now till January, 10.
Raimey, your guess about crowns and superior quality doesn't work

Thank's for info CJ. Two crowns location are on the left side of flats (under right barrel) or on both side of flats, ie separated?

Geno:

Call your friend back and tell him to sell his machine-made, well patterned guns and get himself a couple of earlier hand-made, well patterned longarms!!! Keep searching.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I helped him to find this Meisterwerk long time ago. This is one of the best Sauer I've ever seen.
I don't see smile icons in your post or you really believe in crown-quality tail?
Certanly I'll keep searching, but in general outline the picture is allmost clear.

Icons, what's that??? I don't take the time to use them. I can't say I have full confidence in the quality tale, but I haven't found another direction to go as of yet. If you know, unfrost my Sauer mirror, or crystal ball, for me where I too can see the reflection.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And it very well may be worth something due to the A&F, VL&D - Sauer relationship. I haven't seen the mark on any other non-Sauer sourced/manufactured example.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

151xxx (1909) - 1 crown, 2 cavemen. Meisterwerk mod.18E 12G.

Geno:
Well at least it patterns well ;). So one has to tap new reply to get the icons? Well Geno I tried but haven't mastered it yet.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Model 8 16 bore SN 164441 (1911) has a crown and a caveman on left barrel flat only.

Geno here is a picture of the flats on my gun,..I have a Sauer catalogue but unfortunately can't read German, mine looks like that Meisterarbeit you posted

CJ

CJO:
Pleasure us with a pic of the side of the frame.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Serial # 99514 1902 16 gauge sidelock hammergun Large crown and caveman on right flat, small crown and caveman on left flat silver inlaid caveman on lug

Drilling 153xxx (1909) - 1 crown, 1 caveman.

136xxx (1907) 1 crown, 2 cavemen. Hammer mod.2

Guess I found something interesting. It's paper (certificate?)for hammer gun #159xxx. I can see 2 crowns on paper, maybe somebody could traslate it? BTW, this hammer gun bears 1 crown and 2 cavemen.

Great find Geno. Boy you must spend some time on the quest for info. It will be slow but I'll see if I can at least decipher the cursive script. Translate, I can't say yet.


trügt von uns selbst angefertigt ist und dass die Rohre sowie das verschlussstück amtlich durch die Königl Beschuss Anstalt hier auf Haltbarheit geprüft worden sind Ausserdem ist dieses gewehr auf guten sohuss geprüft worden and tragen die Rohre als Feichen hierfür die Stempel

deceptive by ourselves and that made the tubes/barrels and the lockup have been officially verified by the Royal Institution test/proof(?) here on durability of this shotgun is also on good sohuss been examined and the tubes/barrels as this Feichen bear stamp/mark


Ok, folks with German language knowledege, any aide in what I have misspelled?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

trügt von uns selbst angefertigt ist und dass die Rohre sowie das verschlussstück amtlich durch die Königl Beschuss Anstalt hier auf Haltbarheit geprüft worden sind Ausserdem ist dieses gewehr auf guten sehuss(schieß?) geprüft worden and tragen die Rohre als Teichen hierfür die Stempel

deceptive by ourselves(don't take our word for it?) and that made the tubes/barrels and the lockup have been officially verified by the Royal Institution test/proof(?) here on durability(quality) of this longarm/(shotgun) is also on good sohuss been examined and the tubes/barrels as this Feichen bear stamp/mark

deceptive by ourselves(don't take our word for it?) and that made the tubes/barrels and the lockup components have been officially verified by the Royal Institution tested/proofed here on durability/quality of this longarm(shotgun) is also on good sehuss been tested and bear the stamp of the tubes as ponds for this purpose

Assistance by anyone?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, here you go

I also asked our guys to translate it word for word, but anyway now we can say crowns mean gun been tested for both durability and shooting performance by Royal Military Institute. Still unknown why 2 crowns been replaced by one crown, is it changes in German political system or in system of tests

The first paragraph writes about royal (state) proof which is something already well known.

The second paragraph is refreshing and quite interesting:

"Besides that, this gun was proofed for good shooting, and the barrels are therefore bearing the marks /two crowns/"

It doesn't seem clear if the two crowns were applied by the proof house, or the Sauer factory; I'm inclined to think the factory.

Good work, Geno and Raimey!

With kind regards,
Jani

Jani, that makes sense. In the middle of the document under the caveman is Fabrik Marke which means "Makers Mark". So Sauer & Sons Suhl is stating, "Here is our trade mark!" It makes sense that the rest is stating, "Here is our quality rating for this gun." Sort of like a Quality Assurance inspection rather than model related.

Pete

CJO:
Thanks for the effort and it looks to be a Masterwork/piece and has the D.R.G.M.(130243?) around the cocking indicators which would make it an earlier version. One thing that puzzles me(and yes there are many) is what separates a Model 18 from a Model 17. Yes I do realize the engraving, but the special order Model 18 scattergun had some sort of Sauer variant of chopper lump tubes with the lug/lumps and rib extension forged with the tubes. I haven't seen a patent or the process described.

The Caveman with a staff/Barbarian trademark was acquired in 1882.

Great find on the stamp Geno and you have an interesting summary with the 2 crowns together, separated, and one omitted with the first page.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is where caveman-barbarian-forest man came from - the part of Prussian emblem. Clair Kofoed sent this pic.

Neat Geno & Kofoed. I think it goes back to Hercules but that'a another a$$ chewing by Mr. Cate tale.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

106XXX. 12 ga BLNE. 2 cavemen, 2 crowns (1 big, 1 smaller). 1 each per side, on flats.

Sam

Ramey, Jeff Stephens of the GGCA told me years ago that he thought it was a model 29

CJ

CJ:

If may be a Model 29 if it was a Pigeon gun but it still was supposed to have the Sauer variant of the chopper lump. Now I'm referring to the German models and if the sling swivels, cheekpiece, etc. are omitted, there is an American model equivalent.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here's page 13 of a Sauer catalogue(1907???) in which the whole page is dedicated to answer the common question of the steel type stamp found on German guns. I hope someone will provide an accurate translation.

Besonderer Hinweis zugleich zur Beantwortung häufig an uns gelandender Anfragen.

Seitdem die Firma Fried. Krupp in Essen für Jagd-Gewehrläuf einen “Spezialstahl” herstellt, dessen Elastizität bei hohem Gasdruck bislang noch jedem anderen Gewehrlaufstahl als überlegen sich erwiesen hat, und seitdem vorgenannte Firma “durch Vertrag” uns die alleinige Verarbeitung und Verwertung dieses “Edelstahles” zu Jadgd gewehrläufen übertragen hat, da taucht allerorts die Bezelchnung:

Spezial-Stahl, oder Prima Kruppscher,

Nun mögen wohl andere Stahlwerke - ausser der Firma Fried. Krupp-Essen, ebenfalls einen besonderen Laufstahl für Gewehrläufe herstellen, dem sie, oder ihre Abnehmer die Bezeichnung “Spezial-Stahl” beilegen.

Jeder Jäger aber, der für die Läufe seines Gewehres den Edel-stahl der Frima Fried. Krupp-Essen wünscht, möge deshalb darauf achten, das solche Läufe unbedingt die Aufschrift:

Spezial-Gewehrlauf-Stahl Drei Ringe Fried. Krupp – Essen
Und die Fabrikmarke der Kruppschen Werke(also drei Ringel) siehe obenstehende Darstellung, tragen müssen, eine Marke, welche auf “Jagdgewehrläuf” nur von unserer Firma aufgeschlagen werden darf.

Einen anderen Prima Fried. Krupp gibt in den allgemein gebräuchlichen Gewehrlaufstahl – Qualitäten, das sind: Krupp’s Guss-Stahl zu Kugelläufen und Krupp’s Fluss-Stahl zu Schrotläufen, an andere Jagdgewehr-Fabrikanten keine besseren Marken ab, als an uns, sodass also die Bezeichnunb:

Prima Kurppscher Gewehrlauf-Stahl
Als nicht zutreffend bezeichnet werden muss.

Evidently at some point the word "Spezial" was changed to "Special" and this example from 1950 may have been in the last group with 3 Ring Krupp tubes: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=151981163

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The difference between Meisterwerk mod.18 and other Sauer models, Greener bolt is hiden on mod.18.
Pegion (Taubenflinte) guns mod.28 (hammer) and mod.29 (A&D) were much heavier guns and the length of barrels 29 1/2". Probably 2 3/4" chamber on early pegion guns, but not sure.

"Evidently at some point the word "Spezial" was changed to "Special""
It was much earlier, than 1950. In 1930 Sauer catalog we can see thw word SpeCial allready.

This is a software generated translation...

Special Note also frequently parapet to us to answer questions.

Since then the company Fried. Krupp in Essen for hunting Gewehrläuf a "special steel manufacturing, has its elasticity at high gas pressure has yet been shown any other gun barrel steel as superior, and since then above company" in contract "our gun barrels, the sole processing and utilization of this" stainless steel "to Jadgd has transferred, as everywhere appears the Bezelchnung:

Special Steel, Krupp's or Prima,

Now, like most other steel plants - except of Fried. Krupp-Essen, also produced a special barrel steel for gun barrels, which attach to them, or their customers, the term "Special Steel".

Every hunter, however, the steel for the barrels of his gun to the precious Frima Fried. Krupp-Essen wishes, may therefore make sure that such courses necessarily the words:

Specialist gun barrel steel Three Rings Fried. Krupp - Essen
And the mark of the Krupp works then (three ringed), see above representation, must bear a mark which can be opened only by our company on "Jagdgewehrläuf.

Another Prima Fried. Krupp is commonly used in the gun barrel steel - qualities that are: Krupp's cast-steel ball races and shotgun barrels Krupp's steel to flow to other hunting rifle not have better brands from manufacturers as to us, so therefore the Bezeichnunb:

Prima Kurppscher barrel-Steel
As described should not be applicable.

Pete

Geno:

Thanks for the info on the Pigeon gun and also the frame was longer. Of course a special/spezial gun could have been ordered much like the Model 18, but I know Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl was available on the Model 18 and I don't think so on the Model 29.

So CJ, what is your frame length and what type steel stamp does it wear?

I had assumed the change from Spezial to SpeCial was earlier than 1950, but I really didn't have any idea? Maybe post WWI?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Bbls are 30" - 2 3/4 " chambers - no three ring marking on them , just Kruup Essen, no swivels no cheek piece, frame is about 3" overall watertable is about 2"- Greener cross bolt is exposed

CJ

Yeap. CJ, you have mod.29 "Meisterarbeit", it's not Meisterwerk, but allmost the same high grade gun.

Geno, have you ever seen any other mod 29's out there?

CJ

CJ:
I'm sure there are. Geno is correct and there was a Model XXIII as a hammer version of the pigeon gun with Krupp Fluid Steel and then in 1907(?) there was an a. & b. version of the Model XXIX(29) with the a. version being a Meisterarbeit and the b. being an a. with ejectors. Mr. Cate gives an A., C. & S. with the S. being the best. The Model A. had Krupp fluid steel and didn't have lower intercepting scears(???) like a Model VIII(8). It was the C. though that had the Krupp Spezial Weapons Grade Steel with Sauer's chopperlump variant, having some type of sensitive front trigger as well as lower intercepting scears. So the Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl was offered on the Sauer pigeon gun.

Indeed J. Stephens was correct and I guess yours to be an early Sauer Model XXIX a. if it doesn't have ejectors.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just wanted to cross post this to show Sauer was in the Gründig advert:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The Milford Company with Emil P. Gebhard at the helm was a U.S. of A. Sauer "Sole" importer thru the NY Customs House in the early 1920s up until at least 1925.

There were other "Sole" Sauer agents in other countries such as D.S Spaulding(& successors) of Cadena 23, Mexico, D.F. As most, this is quite an interesting connection and for the few hardcore Sauer followers I'll add a little info. I'd guess the era was in the mid to late 1800s and in Bristol County, Mass. the Sturdy Brothers had a jewelry making business which was absorbed/merged(or in direct competition) as the Merritt & Draper firm which manufactured a large volume of tortoise shell jewelry. Merritt decided to split the sheets with Draper and Merritt partnered with John Shepard making jewelry of all types while Mr. Draper selected D.S. Spaulding as his new partner. D.S. Spaulding made some advancement in making jewelry in the late 19th century and had a store in NY as well as Mexico City, where I guess him to have been sourcing precious metals from Taxco(if you are every down that way be sure to visit Taxco). In the beginning years of the 20th century D.S. Spaulding(successors) had adverts in Mexican mining journals as a hunting outfitter & Sole Sauer agent. In the 1880s D.S. Spaulding imported to the Mexican folks or peddled sporting wares such as baseballs, tennis "stuff" and bicycles, as well as all things hunting, in Mexico City and I think this to be the same "Spaulding" that offered all the sporting stuff here in the U.S. of A. I type all this as either in Mr. Cate's Sauer text or one of the GGCA publications there is a Sauer with "D.S. Spaulding" on it, if I remember correctly, and I think it was similar to CJ's.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I may have seen the "Large" & "Small" "Crowns" on a DR before, but I couldn't remember. So when M4 sent me a pic of his Sauer sourced Scherping in 43 Mauser, I thought that maybe the term "patterning effort" might be more like a regulation effort in that both crowns are found on both scatterguns and solid projectile longarms.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ah, a nice little puzzle on a Sauer clamshell 450 with Wilhelm Kelber's script initials on 3 Ring Krupp steel tubes. Now crowns though. I'm curious if the "875.25" on the lower rib is a data string. Probably toward the end of the clamshell era.







Still zero interest in clamshells?? Sauer also made a few scatterguns with clamshell frames.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

These pics are from a 1908 Model 8 SN 143XXX two clubmen one crown. Any ideas about what the H? signifies? Any help would be appreciated. Other photos are at [url=http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b443/Culitbob/J%20P%20Sauer%20and%20Sohn][/url]

Bob

The "H" is going to be the last name of the mechanic that either worked the action or filled the frame. Hard to say with just a single initial but it could be for one of the Hengelhaupt boys, one of the Helfricht folks or some other craftsman in Suhl with the last name beginning with a "H". I don't think it would be for Heym, but the possibility exists.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

raimey: i think the double rifle you are thinking about is my dr in 43 spanish ser.#43701 it has lge.& sm. crowns and one caveman. best regards bob

Bob it may be and thanks for reminding me. With the large and small crowns I can only guess that extra effort was spent in regulation. 0.43" Mauser has been a hot topic in my conversations as of late. I need to get up your way to see yours as well as see a W. Foerster DR in Richmond.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Woodsrunner38's hammer double with what looks to be a script "H" on the forend lug with "SS" on the base. After starring a bit and rotating the image the "H" now looks to be a script "L".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

No large or small crown on the 1944 boxlock but it does have an interesting stamp of a "S" in a shield on the underside of the right tube.








Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is Nathan's Sauer Büchsflinte(Combo) possibly proofed in April 1939, which can be confirmed with pics. If I'm not mistaken, Büchsflintes were only offered post 1912 as special order until circa 1934(I think it was Mr. Cate that gave this date guess). Anyone have any info on Sauer combos post 1930?






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Jim Cate ntoes that Sauer Büchsflinte # 280102 is a 8X57 & 20 bore combo with a stamp of 7.8mm X57 over StmG, 13gr and a date code of 7/37. Sauer Büchsflinte # 292552 is 8X57 & 12 bore with a proof date stamp of 12/28 but this doesn't seem to make sense so possibly there was an error and the date code should have been 12/38??? Sauer Büchsflinte # 293992 has a date stamp of 11/39 and little more info is provided. For the current Combo in question stamped 439, noting the date and the 48mm frame length as well as considering the tubes are stamped atop with "GECO" leads Mr. Cate to surmise that the components were purchased from Sauer and assembled by a GECO craftsman. Anyone know who might have been GECO's büchsenmacher or master gunsmith??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

No small or large crowns on this Sauer Büchsflinte. The story goes there in the proximity fo the Battle of the Bulge there was a pile of longarms that GIs were instructed to dispose of. So a GI from Cullman, Alabama selected the most unique one he could locate in the pile which was the Combo. The GI broke the stock to get it in his rolled up sleeping bag and shipped the components home to his wife in Cullman, Alabama. Then the longarm was sent to Tampa to have a new stock fitted. There was some issue there with the gunsmith, or firearms merchant, attempting to keep the repaired Combo. But it was brought home to Cullman, Alabama.





I've seen the "C" on the bottom of the rear lug before. There's an "E" on the previous one.

I would venture a guess that the intertwined "SuS" stamp on the flats is a Sauer process mark and more than likely replaced the Caveman with a Staff. So could the longarm have been completed at the Sauer facility?



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rasch from Littlegun's site: http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20allemande/artisan%20o%20p%20q%20r/a%20rasch%20g%20l%20%20gb.htm

It would be informative to see the area between the flats and forend lug but I think the crowns give it away. But as Geno stated the crowns would imply completion at the Sauer facility: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=202766#Post202766


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Not a crown stamp, but an interesting mark on the aft lug on this 1941 Sauer dreill�ufer #337029.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Probably means model M-32 made for Goering's luftwaffe. The difference between M-30 and M-32, the first one was Plain Jane and the second one with some engravings. By s/number 337xxx this gun was one of luftwaffe drillings (335xxx-338xxx).

Interesting insight Geno.

On an earlier post on a Sauer 450 Musselshell I forgot to note that the right tube experienced the 1st proof with shot and later with a solid projectile.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting offering by Felix Arnd of Berlin but I'm not sure how the F�rstenwalde on the Spree applies, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCrstenwalde , being some 35 miles East of Berlin. It is a Sauer sourced clock-hand sidelock with interesting engraving & toplever. Being issued #56001, according to Jeff Stephens fine efforts, that would have been in 1895. I can't seem to find any crowns so the longarm didn't experience any patterning effort at the Sauer shooting grounds/Schiessst�tte?.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=235853&view=previous
















Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gentlemen,

just went through ten pages of this wonderful thread � but I did not see the explanation for the large crown /small crown (?). So, here�s the explanation from Sauer�s 1903 catalog:



Translation:

�For good precision [literally: shot capacity] do guarantee the markings: [lagre crown / smaller crown]�

So, the two crowns were used (advertised) at least up to 1903.

Best regards

Martin

Mr. Krause, lovely to have you in our merry troupe. I think it was on page 6 in one of Geno's post, which I can't seem to view now, that he posted the following document;


It was either on page 6 or 7 that those closely following noted the meaning of the crowns but not an exact date of nonuse.

Being one of the privileged to actually hold the Sauer records, can you say at any time if the lot will be published, if it may be acquired on a page by page basis, any direction on the Sauer process marks, mechanic's marks and those pesky script "g"s, and others, that are found on the lower rib just forward of the flats? And to end this line of questioning, are you of any relation to Wolfgang Krause?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Martin,

So good to see you here my friend. Your input is always an education for me.

Pete

Its quite explainable. Sauer had guns and guns in white in stock.

Hi Raimey,

thanks for your warm welcome! Seems, my cover is blown away! Yes, I have a relation to Wolfgang Krause. Actually, since some decades. He�s my father. So, if you have any questions regarding a gun he�s offering: ask me. My father doesn�t speak English and he�ll forward any request to me anyway for drafting a reply.



Thanks a lot for showing (again) this wonderful Sauer document provided by �Geno�! Wonderful! Thanks Geno for bringing this to our attention. I have some Sauer invoices in my collection � but not a document like this!



Pardon me, but I don�t understand? I, personally, don�t have access to the �Sauer records�. Do you mean the �work books� discovered by Jim Cate and me in 2007? I don�t have full copies, but only copies of some pages (we weren�t allowed to copy (scan) the complete �work books� and were allowed only to make three (3) photos and were allowed to order pricy photo copies) � but Peo has �em all and complete. Or did I misunderstand it? Do you have the complete Sauer records?

In any case, when Jim and I visited the Suhl archive, we went through literally thousands of pages of Sauer files � but we did not discover any hint to process marks and the �pesky script �g�s, and others�.



Hi Geno,

Thanks! First of all, you have my full admiration of your observations, facts, photos and documents! Next; yes, they had guns in stock. And, the explanation for the two crowns in the 1903 catalog�. Well, I have to admit: the year date on this catalog isn�t printed, but applied with an ink stamp marking. So, in fact, the �master" of said catalog may have been used for quiet a time � I don�t know.

Regards

Martin

P.S:



Hi Pete,

Thanks! Nice to be welcomed in such a friendly and warm-hearted way!

I found these photos interesting, though its soviet period allready 1950-53. Sauer mod.47S Barrels marked 1950, paper shows its been range tested in 1951 and sold in 1953. Also barrels have 4 rings Krupp steel (Russian barrel steel 50ap) and Caveman on top reeb.

hello sauerfan, good to see you here (from feuerwerker)

I would like to change the "caveman" word

the idea of ape like neanderthal people living in cave and having allways a big club startet in the dawn of the modern materialism after 1850. this image was stolen like most things from older times. the sauer "caveman" is in fact the Wild man of medival times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_man

Interesting photo and paper in deed! Maybe this gun was forged by Werner Gr��ung ? He was employed in the forging division of the Fortuna company.



I found and picked up his �Personalkarte� (personnel record card) in a burned building on the Sauer plant in 1998 together with Jim Cate. A room of this building was filled up with hundreds of such cards - most of them ruined by fire or water, but some were in good condition (also some pre-war and war time cards). We picked them up (nobody cared for us) � some weeks later the whole building and its �filling� was history�.. but that�s of course another story (if anybody is interested, I could show in an extra thread some photos of the Sauer plant taken in 1998 compared with some photos of 2007).



Hi �feuerwerker�,

Yes, correct, Sauer�s oldest trademark is the �Wilde Mann� or in English, the �Wild man with the club�. But that�s of course no big deal.

Regards

Martin

Martin,

That is a kind offer. Please do start another thread on the subject. There are many history buffs reading who would enjoy the information and any stories you would share.

Pete

but important enough, the caveman is a stupid idiot and the Wild man is a noble man in its own right.
he support the shield on the escutcheon of kings and noble knights and was therefore worthy to become the symbol of the sauer factory.

Mr. Krause:
Heavens no I haven't had the privilege of holding the Sauer records. But it appears a scanning scheme would need to be in place before visiting the archives. Yes, I was referring to the Sauer Work Books.


There appears to be Louis Kelber's stamp on the tubes but it is difficult to tell. Also just beside the Sauer stylized "S" on the right tube there appears to be some initials encircled.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I stumbled across this Sauer/Krupp 3 Ring Steel certificate on Gunbroker, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=243575253 , and it goes a long way to define that Sauer used a data string(123.28 - #123 or 1928) on the lower rib(and I think I've seen it on the individual tubes) for their Krupp Aktiengesellschaft tubesets:





Interesting Belgian proof certificate also.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,

thank you very much for bringing this to our attention! Most interesting! Firstly, because it shows, Sauer delivered in the white barrels to Belgian gun makers (I didn�t know that), secondly, yes, regarding the date strings this could be a �Rosetta�s stone�, because I also noticed on some pre-1912 barrels some �codes� similar to the Austrian style date codes. Don�t have a photo at hand right now, but I have seen such date strings also.

Regards

Martin

Please post any images Martin. I'll try to dig up the ones I've seen. I think that Sauer was sourced by Springer and F�kert also for tubesets. If not Sauer, then tubesets by the Kelber brothers. I can't say that tubesets other than Krupp 3 Ring were chronicled, but many, many Austrian, Bohemian & German sporting arms have Sauer tubesets.



I'd really like to locate the certificate on this Matksa tubeset.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

Gentlemen,

back to the topic:

a Sauer �Selbstspanner-System� sidelock shotgun SN 60255, having the hands cocking indicators according to DRGM 17913 and a lot of �the wild man with the club� markings:

Barrel flats: 2 (on each barrel � nearly invisible on the right barrel, but it�s present there also)
Round portion of left barrel: 5 (!)
Round portion of right barrel: 1

Plus the two large crowns on the right barrel.

What I don�t have an explanation for: Beside the factory applied SN 60255 it has two additional serial numbers 38012 and 36979 on the barrel lug as well as on the receiver.























Here are others I discovered recently:


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=116963

Another sidelock Sauer, SN 60177. A very beautiful gun!


http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=58904

A hammer shotgun SN 45906. Maybe this gun holds the world record regarding pre-1945 German proof markings:

1/ crown/V used between 1st Jan. 1891 and 31st March 1893
2/ the complete set of usual shotgun markings 1893 � 1940 plus crown/R (repair)
3/ eagle/N and eagle/J of April 1942,

More German proofs are hard to find.

Regards

Martin

This gun is very interesting. It not only documents that Sauer was supplying barrels in the white. It also shows that there was a relationship with Fran�ois Dumoulin & Cie Societe Anonyme. FDC was the trademark for Dumoulin.

Which leads to another question. Dumoulin was heavily tied to Fabrique to National. So was Dumoulin acquiring barrels directly from Sauer? Or was FN the middleman? This was would not be the 1st time that FN was supplying German barrels to the Belgian trade. About 1900, FN was using Siemens-Martin for their barrels.

Pete

Peter:
I don't think the connection was that simple. I think Auguste Francotte was closely connected and the mainstay between Liege & Suhl but I'm not sure how he relates to Dumoulin & FN.

Nice find Martin and I guess we don't have the Sauer ledger for those serial number just yet do we.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Both Dumoulin and Francotte were founding members of FN in 1888. Dumoulin had 600 preferred shares and 200 common shares.
Francotte had 0 preferred and 200 common.
Henri Pieper was the major share holder with 1200 preferred shares and 200 common.
They all maintained their own shops.

Auguste Francotte and Claude Gaier wrote Ars Mechicania, the history of Fabrique Nationle.

I think there still much to understand.

Pete

Any idea how the cross-sourcing occurred and was LLH or one of the other tube making craftsman a staple for tubes for the lot?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I truly wish we had more to go on. There has not been a lot of research in this area, as you know. The work you and a few others are doing is stretching the boundaries.

If I had months to spend in Liege, I might be able to dig some more up...

Pete

Peter:
All right, tell me where you would dig......??

Interesting Sauer #153707 with Anson type forend latch. Anyone else think those to be a chopperlump tubeset?








Encircled "WL"????




Interesting position for Eagle Nitro stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I would start at the Curtiss Museum. They have a journal, in French, only for members. They do not sell back copies that I am aware of. I believe they maintain a full set there. I would start with them. I would also interview the curator and some other people I know. That is for openers. I do not know if the local newspapers are archived, but I am guessing they are. I would also work the Sunday open market. I am told all sorts of things appear there. Including sets of salesman's sample of damascus. They are often sold for napkin rings. I am guessing that it might be good source for old documents.

Pete

Interesting sidelock dreil�ufer with a 3 Ring Sauer stamp and odd Krupp letters. Also lower tube looks to be 70mm 16 bore but the limited stamp images seem mixed in time. Maybe some Sauer Model 25/26 variant?









M4 looks at those cat-eyes






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Stumbled upon these images of a Sauer hammer dreil�ufer at Shotgun world, I think it was, that appears to have experienced a stout once over on the tubes or more than likely a rebarrel effort on the scattergun tubes at the H�nel facility and then reproof at the Zella-Mehlis facility post 1911. Martin pegged it and I'm curious how he arrived at the conclusion. I don't see any crowns but I'd like to see the area between the flats and the forend hanger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I like the looks from the photos of the locks- but thought I saw some pitting around the left breech side, just past the firing pin hole- or are my eyes playing tricks on me--

I'd concur and also it seems that there were pretty stout loads pushed thru it. If I'm not mistaken there seems to be light images of the touchmarks found on the flats on the water table. I think the mirror image would be correct. But maybe too my eyes are playing tricks. But all the strikers look to be "ringed".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"Manufactured for Charles Daly"
It is a Charles Daly offering by the way.

For some reason this Sauer dreil�ufer experienced proof at the Frankfurt an der Oder facility(Crown over Gothic F & Troisdorfer powder) and I wonder if Collath, or some other regional firearms merchant, sourced it in the white from Sauer or vice versa? Seems to have all the correct inhouse Sauer marks for circa 1900. Looks to be a 0.303 British calibre.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Any Oscar Sauer fans out there? Lacks any crowns or any Sauer marks. These images of a Blitz DR were forwarded to me.






Crown over N 2,45g GBP / StmG





Forge marks of K in Rhombus


Script H or K along with mechanic's initials G.T.



What's an Oscar Sauer fetching these days?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gottlieb T., Gottlieb Triebel son or grandson??


August Sch�ler

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post235096
G.T. mechanic was sourced by August Sch�ler


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I like it, Is that a 9.3x72R or 9x57R D/R made in 1919? Nice

M-4

Nah, I think it was made 1910-1913. Not sure on the cartridge just yet, but here are some reloads in the bullet trap.

Maybe The American can determine with his bionic eye? I do fancy the Gebrauchsmuster D.R.G.M. number for the innovation to the bullet trap.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Most interesting 12 bore A&D boxlock whose frame was onhand in 1893 and whose owner apparently had Sauer make a new tubeset circa 1909 - 1912 with serial 148xxx(Note Nitro Proof). One interesting component is that it doesn't have the APUN number between the firing pins.














Posted for Dan & I may cross ref to the Daly thread as it appears somewhat similar.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A few more images:













Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
It would be better if one of the cartridges were outside the trap,but I'll give it a try. The cases have 30-06 military headstamps and I have a couple samples of 9.3x72R &8x72R cases that have been redrawn from 06 cases. Of the two choices above,I would lean toward 9.3x72R. I suspose it could also be 9x58 1/2R or 9.3x57R/360 but neither of these are as likely as the longer case.9x57R is unlikely because the cases are rimmed and swaging them to get a rim would leave the head dia.too small.
Mike

Incidentally, re the firearms displaying gold crowns on their exterior, (as opposed to crown proof/maker stamped marks inside the action), 7 pearls represents a baron, 9 pearls a count.

Re the "8.7" marked rifle, Baron von Engelhardt wrote:
�8,7m/m� on lower barrel: �The very commonly used 9,3x72 (now called 9,3x72R) frequently was marked as 8,7 and similar�.

As you know, there is a D and an E version of this 9,3x72R case, (if it actually proves to be that case). I have the D version of it and the CD4H FL dies and modified (rim thickness reduced), cases for it.

Kiwi,
The Baron was correct,but the 8.7 (8.8,8.9,etc) is the bore dia(not groove or bullet dia.),which would fit several different cartridges in addition to 9.3x72R.On the other hand, the 9.3x72R is the most common,therefore the most likely.
Mike

Interesting Sauer hammergun 438xx(Modell Nr. 2??) given as a 12 bore






Long toplever


Large & Small Crowns on flats & water table
Prussia-maybe an export
Oddly stamped LE or L inverted E initials


Fine Damascus Barrels - maybe exported to an English speaking destination?

Interesting that it doesn't wear any proofs and it supports Jeff Stephen's list that it was made 1891-1892.

A sidenote is that J.P. Sauer & Sohn filed for the Herkules/Wildmann with a staff trademark in 1896 in Belgium, much like Remington who filed for a trademark in Oktober 1896. I'm sure Remington obtained protection for something that was being manufactured or previously manufactured so I wonder what Sauer was sourcing?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

In fact Sauer & Sohn filed for 3 variations on the stamp of Herkules wearing a lion-skin skull cap wielding a shield & club.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Sauer Hammergun with large and small crowns and DAMR


Sauer Hammergun with 182 S Bern 115 on each tube

I do not see any connection to the Bern facility. So, anyone think that Sauer had a pattern welded tube source to make a Sauer's Bernard variant, Dr. Hause?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jani has an interesting find on a drilling variant by Hans Brings from the early 1890s and in looking for a patent or DRGM for Brings(had a bicycle patent in Britain) I stumbled onto Gebrauchsmuster/D.R.G.M. Nr. 17912 & 17913 where Sauer sought protection.

Gebrauchsmuster 17912 - filed 9.25.1893 and issued 8.12.1896 under the term Selbstspannerschlo� u.f.w.




Gebrauchsmuster 17913 - filed 9.25.1893 and issued 8.12.1896 under the term Selbstspannergewehrschlo� u.f.w.

I wonder what the difference in the novel idea might have been for the Selbstspanner. Maybe one for the lock & one for the indicator?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Also DRP 70343 where Sauer sought protection for their expensive method for assembling tubes, Verbindung von Jagdgewehrl�ufen mit dem Verschlufshaken, issued August 12th, 1893 had a novel addition by Sauer under Gebrauchsmuster / D.R.G.M. 85520 from 8.29.1895.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Has anyone handled this dainty Kerner-Anson double? I may be missing something, but I don't see any marks that point to Sauer?

http://www.csmcspecials.com/product_p/24134.htm



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

My, my! That is the nicest Sauer gun I have ever seen. If it happens to be for sale please let me know. (referencing ellenbr's hammer gun)

Sauer with NR just forward of flats







J.P. Sauer Nr. 254966 June 1930(badged J. Nicklas, Riga) with chopper-lump tubes given as a Modell 380 with Krupp 3 Ringe Nirosta(Nichtrostender Stahl) which seems odd so I wonder if Nirosta was a evolution of 3 Ringe Stahl? The Nirosta recipe was developed on Oktober 17th, 1912 and Krupp/Sauer sought trademark protection for Nirosta in 1922. By the 1914 Expo in Malm�, Sweden, many, many wares were displayed that were composed of Nirosta. With all that said, I wonder if NR stands for Nirosta(Nichtrostender Stahl)????