I have been trying to get a a reply from you (latest approx. 3 weeks ago) as to where my bbl's are. You have had them close to 9 mo. for back boring. Everytime I have called you, you tell me they are still there in the box but you will get to them in the next week. I lasy emailed you & requested since you don't seem to have any interest in doing the commision, please return them to me. I still have not received an answer or my bbl's. You have done some work for me in the past which was completed in good order --- no complaints ------ however, your not replying to my emails or calls causes me concern after about nine months. What must I do to get a reply & my bbl's back ?

That oughta do it, Mr. Ken...Geo

Good luck. Been there myself. I shall not go back.

I here ya Ken

Bene there done that!

Mike took on some work for me a few years ago that I knew up front was outside his usual line. The gun got 'lost' in what I'd term "creative block" and Mike began ignoring my nagging about it.

I decided to back off and place my trust in his reputation for integrity, and my old sxs Beretta showed up with the work impeccably done and was accompanied by a gunsmithing bill which was a fraction of what I had expected. Give Mike a little more room and see what happens...Geo

Yikes!





Ken -

Good luck on this.
Hopefully this will come out quickly and with a good ending for you.

I have a couple of barrel work jobs that I've been hanging on to for the past 3 or 4 years, with no other reason than that I've been weary of the possibility of my parts either getting screwed up or lost by the shipper or somehow vaporized into the ether of someone's workshop.



Happy Holidays to you too!




Cheers
Tinker

This is not good. I thought Mike Orlen was one of the good guys. Thank you for the heads up!

There is some comfort in knowing that I am not alone in my frustration in dealing with Mr. Orlen.

In October of 2008 I sent him a set of LC Smith Ideal Grade 12 ga. barrels for chamber lengthening, choke work and reblue, the latter a service he advertised at the time. I included full payment for the work plus return shipping and insurance. Mr. Orlen cashed my check in December of 2008. Over the next 12 months to date, I have spoken on the phone with him 5 times, sent 4 letters, one Registered Mail, and all with Return Receipt to verify his receipt, said receipts acknowledged by their return. In the phone calls I was told from the first that the choke and chamber work was done and the hold up was the bluing. As time passed, I asked him repeatedly to send the barrels back without the bluing done, regardless of their external condition. To date I have no barrels and of course, no verbal contact or correspondence reply from Mr. Orlen.

I had contemplated contacting the MA Attorney General and the Amherst Better Business Bureau, but resisted doing so. Knowing MA's attitude toward firearms, I was concerned that a complaint could lead to a loss of some form of state license for Mr. Orlan and impact what may be his livelyhood. As each day passes that concern diminishes. What is so frustrating for me and others who are in this situation is that Mr. Orlen has done at least a dozen shotgun barrels for me over a 10 year period, and the work was done well and they were returned quickly.

And a closing comment which I suspect and hope is unnecessary on this Board - I posted on another on line magazine board my comments on Mr. Orlen and the chronology of my problems - I received several on board responses and PM's that told me to 'lay off' this wonderful fellow and questioned the marital status of my parents. For those of you who might wish to respond this way - don't waste your time or mine.

Well, I've tried to get a response from Mike for sometime now with no results......the bad thing is I've recommended him to my buddies.

It is a pity to hear comments such as these about someone who has normally been
praised for the quality, proper pricing and speed of his work. Surely something is up.

On another note, Larryguy, one should stay away from sites where other members
feel they can get to question your parents' marital status.

JC

How dare you bastards question the integrity of Mike Orlen! As soon as I get my guns back from Andy Wojohowicz I'm sending them to Mike.

Just send 'em to me Greg.
Trust me.....I've got a good feeling about this one!!!

I too have a job pending with our friend Mike.

It's been a while, but I have every confidence the barrel set will be returned someday with the usual excellent work.

This is certainly a frustrating situation and Ken deserves an immediate response on those barrels. At the same time I've used Mike a fair amount and the work has always been done as requested. Furthermore, it was performed in a suprisingly expeditious manner - except once. A while ago, I waited almost nine-months for some routine work to be finished but then he gave me a nice price break. I didn't like the long wait but it wasn't enough to stop using him.

I am hurt by all this. I had used him in the past and was more than happy with the work. Now, I have some choke work I have been wanting done and another barrel I would like to have polished and I am scared to use him. I hope it goes well soon as we need a good smith that does barrels. Mike, please respond to Ken, please Mike.

I hope everything is fine with Mike. Don't forget he's not so young guy, but good one
I guess some too nervous clients deserve their barrels to be sent to New Zealand and never back!

Greg-







No one here is doing anything against Mike Orlen.
Mike's actions (lack of action and communication while very very tardy WHILE in possession of Ken's barrels) have made this mark on his integrity.
It says much when a sterling veteran of the trade as Ken needs to take this kind of action to recover his property.

This situation deserves a good response, and Ken deserves the continuity of his ownership and control of his shotgun barrels.

You have no grounds to call these guys out as bastards.
At this point your integrity is showing much worse for wear too.
Shame on you.




Tinker

GregSy was writing in jest I think. Google up or do a search here on "Andy Wojohowicz"

Best,

Mike

Same as Tinker.Whitey

This is from another board posted today. It is not my statement.

"Spoke with Mr. Orlen and he has stated that he is no longer doing repair work."

I guess his guitar playing? and singing career is more lucrative.

Same as Tinker and Whitey, Eightbore. I have enough barrels to repair and finish to fill a Suburban, but I have been stung by the best in the business. I will probably die with these unfinished barrels. I have offered to go to work for three fine barrel finishers to take the pressure off their striking chores. Yes, I can strike a mean set of barrels. Not only did they decline my offers, they continued to hold my barrels hostage for many more months. Two of them went two years and I had to take the barrels back, unfinished. By the way, there is justice in the world if these barrel rapists get a screwing from the king of barrel rapists.

Don, I think Mike Orlen quit doing general repair work several years ago so as to concentrate on his barrel work. The repair work he did for me that I referred to in my earlier post was done after he had generally quit the general gunsmithing business, and that's why he took so long to get my Beretta done. Like I said though, he did a good job on it and the time it took was reflected in the reduced amount of the bill...Geo

George, I think it was some type of barrel work that the man wanted done. It may not have been choke work.

This is just my opinion. But no matter the problem. Lack of honest communication says a lot about the person.JMO Whitey

yep, I was jest kiddin'.

That's a shame. Standup guy. Always returned choke and hone work to me within the week. Aside from missing out on the reasonable pricing and fast turnover, I also hope he's OK and the hog on ice act is not due to distractions such as health issues. If he's OK, I hope he'll respond and fulfill his obligations.

jack

Is Mr. Orlen known as a registerd DGS BBS member? I don't recall seeing any posts by him. I've talked to him on the phone about barrel work but not recently. Hope all is well and this is just some strange communication breakdown. He's who I would have sent my work to but now??? Good luck Mr. Hurst.

He is a member ;

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post120067

Sent him my barrel for choke work a few weeks back and got them back in 3 days, so I don't get it!!??? Mike has always been very timely with my jobs.....
Rick

From his past, Mike seems to be a good, honest, smith. Hopefully, he's in good health and Ken's barrels are fine.

A story a friend told me this last spring comes to mind. He took an inexpensive o/u gun to a local smith known for barrel work who also happened to be his good friend. The smith was tasked with putting screw-in chokes in the little 410 o/u. Something went wrong and the barrels were ruined. The answer was replacing the gun. The gunsmith found and purchased a replacement gun for his friend. How's that for a standup guy?

I've sent a number of barrels to him for common metal work - chambers, chokes, honing, sights, soldering, etc. I always received the work back in a timely fashion. Perhaps he is subbing out some of the not so common work such as finishing and his subs are the problem. I have no problem with him or his work.

Greg-




I wouldn't have known.
Have a beer.
Hopefully Ken gets his tubes back.



Tinker

I'm not personally aware of gunsmiths that sub out work they don't want to do without informing the customer. That would be unethical in my book. When I send my guns off, I'm expecting the gunsmith I sent them to to be at least supervising the work.

My own one experience with Mike Orlen was very disappointing.

I haven never mentioned it to anyone on the web but I had a similar experience with Mr. Orlen about 6 years ago. He told me the job would take 4 to 6 weeks (chokes opened and rust blue). It took almost a year. The problem was not the quality of his work which was GREAT, or even the wait, it was simply to total lack of communication via email or phone. If he would have told me it would take a year, I probably would have still used him due to his excellent reputation. Hell, I would still use him as I feel this is not an honesty issue as I believe him to be an honest guy who gets behind now and again. The irony is, I have emailed him since with other jobs I needed done and he never bothered to get back to me. Bummer for me, as now I use other smiths with whom I'm satisfied.

Everyone makes mistakes. That said, a ruined set of barrels pretty much sinks a nice shotgun. Good gunsmiths don't take on work they cant handle and don't mess-up what they can; they can't afford mistakes.

I sent Mike two sets of barrels for choke work and received his reputed excellent price, workmanship, and turn-around time. Another set of 20 bore barrels sent to him was pretty much ruined in my mind when all of the choke was reamed from one tube contrary to written intructions and measurements. He offered to jug choke the barrel but I sold the gun to a woodcock hunter rather than wince everytime I looked at it.

I now use Briley and can only hope the extra price equals extra attention.

Best,

C.

He sounds like a restaurant that serves great food half the time, and dog poop half the time. The trick is to only go on the days they are out of poop.

Mike Orlen has done perhaps 8 or 9 sets of barrels for me over the years, from screw-in chokes on one set to opening chokes on 3 or 4, repairing a loose rib, lengthening forcing cones, and polishing out bore pitting on several. The first few jobs were very quick, then followed by one job that took much, much longer than anticipated, and with poor communication, until it finally was received and a good job of it, then followed by more jobs delivered quickly. I think he simply gets over-booked from time to time. The bad communication is not a good thing, but he says he is just not good at emailing and he can't hear the phone??? As for Briley's, I have only sent a single job to them, and will never go back!! They not only botched a very nice set of pre war Merkel barrels, but were unpleasant when discussing it. Their reputation is certainly much better than the single job they did for me, so I guess the point is that anyone can indeed mess up from time to time. I'll tell you what makes me want to stick with Mike and cut him some slack: it's the many times he has posted here and shared methods and instructions on how to perform a certain task. I remember well the photos he posted and instructions on how to make and use a stock bending jig some time back. I have never seen Briley's share squat on this forum! Mike has, and his quickly finished jobs outweigh the single slow job for me. I really appreciate his sharing of his knowledge.

He has done some work for me on a number of occasions and I have been well pleased. One job (a few years back) took longer than I expected but the quality of the work was worth the wait. I will continue to use him.

I have only had internal barrel work done by Mr. Orlen. Over the years...I believe I've sent him 5 or 6 sets of tubes...He was always courteous when we spoke, always returned my phone calls and returned my emails when I've gone that route. I was never without any of my barrels for longer than 10 days, including the shipping time. Every job I've sent to him has been done as I instructed, the choke constrictions I requested always dead on. Late this last summer I sent him a set of Browning Superposed barrels, I sent them on a Monday and they were on my doorstep the following Monday and the work was first rate and of impeccable quality...as usual.

I'm sorry to hear of everyone elses misfortunes in dealing with Mr. Orlen, with that said, he is still my go to guy for internal barrel work.

Hang out on this forum long enough and dang near every working gunsmith out there has had a complaint written about them at one time or another. I've have seen some absolute iron mongering (aka gunsmithing buffoonery) performed on a couple extremely fine guns from guys who if I mentioned their hallowed names here, I would no doubt get more of my precious rating stars yanked out of my profile box faster than I can say "Jumanji"!!

He has always done me right. i sent him a set a few months ago and got them back in 2 weeks, honed and ready to go.

Sometimes every smith gets behind or develops a block about doing certain jobs. Been there myself. there are some things you look at and just move ot something else and say you will go back and do it, then another job comes in that is more enjoyable and that other one goes back again. Not justifying it, just a possible explanation.

Why does't someone who lives fairly close to Mike call on him and see how he is?. Perhaps his health is not so good?
We can speculate all day and get nowhere at all
Mike

Mike has done several barrel jobs for me and he received another set today. I talked to him a couple of weeks back and he said that he no longer does general repair work. I have no complaints at all. My guess is that he is no longer doing anything other than internal barrel work.

The several barrel guys who have held my barrels hostage for months or years are not in stall mode for all of their customers. I object to the fact that they will work for some customers and not for others, even though we have had good experiences with each other for many years. Maybe I am making an assumption, but a barrel guy who doesn't turn out a set of barrels for two years would be pretty hard to believe. I am assuming they have completed many projects over those years. I am in the middle of one of those situations right now. I will let you know how it turns out.

Has this been resolved?

An update from my last post regarding MY barrel situation with Mr. Orlen - 1 year, 2 months from date barrels were sent and 1 year 1 month from when my check for payment in full for services requested was cashed - NO BARRELS.

The Better Business Bureau database online states that they have "processed zero complaints" about Mike Orlen Gunsmithing in the past 36 months. "No government actions, no advertising issues."

jack

Hi all, well here's my 2c worth. I had him open a choke for me. Very good job and great turn around time. I have no complaints.

One small thing, it seems he does not like to answer e-mails. I don't know why, perhaps the amount he gets is the reason.

I know when I posted a question on bbl work on SGW (Gunsmithing subforum)and mentioned he did not get back to me, he deleted my post. It seems he's a bit touchy.

Anyway, best of luck to all of you who have issues with him. I hope they get resolved with everyone happy in the end.

All the best!

Greg

On Shotgun World of which he is the moderator of Gunsmithing and Restoration, just today answered a post by someone. Try him there, maybe it will embarrass him to finally answer.

Or, instead of insinuating negative things, how about giving him a call? EVERY time I've called Mike early during a week day, he answered the phone and was an upfront and pleasant guy to deal with...sorry things aren't going well for some, but my positive opinion isn't going to change.
Rick

Rick-

Your question doesn't consider the original post.



Take a look, read what Mr Hurst wrote.




I'd seen comments of the same tune as Mr Hurst's concerns a couple or so years ago, asked around about Orlen - also posted a question or two on this website asking this group what the deal was with him.
As I'd been attempting to reach him myself on the telephone and via email with potential interest in having him work on a set of barrels -- with zero success, I wondered.
I ended up getting accused of mounting a smear campaign against Mike Orlen by some members of this community.
Haven't asked about him since.

I very strongly doubt that anyone here with an ass-pinch of integrity would doubt the word or honor of Ken Hurst.
I hope he gets his property back - at the very least in the condition it was when it left his hands.





Cheers
Tinker

Maybe he's too busy being a moderator on that forum to do his real work. Maybe he has a case of lazyassitis and needs to cash checks for works he hasn't done in order to pay for his treatments. Let's not jump to conclusions or allowing the facts to enter into this discussion.

Beware of Gunsmiths that "Moderate" Forums.

NO complaints in 36 months to the Better Business Bureau but the same complaints repeated here twice in the last several months. Contradictory experiences with Mr. Orlen? Sure sounds like it. So a series of unanswered emails and stalling phone calls produces the exasperation which leads to poisoning the well here but no other action. You guys are killing a man with kindness. Maybe if Andy W. had found the police at his door sooner he wouldn't have had the option of pursuing self-destruction quite so successfully. Time to take the gloves off and let the chips fall where they may.

now THAT is funny.....I don't care who you are......

Which illustrates the difference in USA & UK humour????????

Salopian.

Pardon the juxtaposition.



You refer to Steve's comment.




Steve gets it.

There appears to be controversy around issues of Mike Orlen's integrity in communication and throughput. I find this baffling.
I have compared a clique-like support for Mike Orlen in the face of a public call to action by one of our most generous, solid, and professional members to the fashion statement of the 'Stop Snitching' social movement within the rampant street gang and hardcore rap music communities.

'On the streets', citizens of certain urban areas are held subject to possible/inevitable harassment or harm if they are found to be 'snitches', or informants to community or law enforcement of the actions of street-gang members.

With the illustration above, I compare this trend to the zeitgeist around Mike Orlen among 'those who he will call back on the telephone' and such.
There appears to be some sort of secret handshake or 'gang sign' (as used by one of the apparent gang members above) one must use in order to ensure the consistent attention and allied support of Mike Orlen.

My gesture is definitely flippant.
It's meant to bring a bit of dark humor to the situation.
I hope you get it too.





Cheers
Tinker

I'm glad you clarified that Tinker. I thought for a minute you were just a Planet of the Apes movie fan and had posted that photo on the wrong BB.

No Greg.
Not a big fan of the Planet of the Apes films.

Just needed an image to properly illustrate the dark humor, as noted above.




Cheers
Tinker

GregSY- I would respectfully ask you to please delete your comment.

Someone just needs to go get Ken's barrels.
There are other gunsmiths that will treat their customers with respect in this world.

Great work, Tinker. We have to remember, the guys who are supporting this fellow send guns to him to be sawed off, screw in chokes installed, chambers lengthened, forcing cones drilled out, and other expensive services. They are not qualified to pass judgement on anyone's character.

Mr. Ken asked if anyone had similar experiences with non-completion (Yes, Virginia, this is not really about a failure to communicate!!) on the part of Mr. Orlen. Some said Yes and some said No. OK thus far but the chain yankers and common taters don't think there's enuf spice in this stew.

If the issue of non-performance and theft isn't worth one call to the BBB or an action at law, then CZ's offer of someone else's intervention on Ken's behalf may be the answer. Probably should attempt to get LarryGuy's money and other hostage barrels while there. Someone from MASS would be the ideal choice--close to Orlen, close to the PO. C'mon fellers, we're the same chaps that are ready to man the barricades with an old Parker and a couple Featherlite AAs every time somebody makes a feint toward our rights as free men planted firmly upright on our hind legs. Don't everyone step up at once.

jack

" Generous, solid and professional member" Quote by Tinker refering to KEN HURST. Eightbore quoted as saying "Tinker, Great work" also in the same post 8Bore denigrating those of us who use Mikes services. Do your comments also include Ken in the mix and probably a good majority of this board? For years, Ken and Mike have been "generous, solid and professional contributors to this board. Both by their services and their comments. It is a confusing set of circumstances in this issue and all of us wish this comes to a positive conclusion. Randy

Randy-





Do you have an issue with my characterization of Ken Hurst?






Cheers
Tinker

Tinker, Absolutely not, your comments were right on and not only apply to Ken, but to Mike and many, many others on this board. This board is made up of individuals of the highest character and honor. This issue that Ken and Mike have should be of the greatest concern to all of us. We set here with only a set of keys and a monitor and exchange knowledge and information and friendly banter for years on end. Many of us have exchanged money for product with members of this board and have the utmost confidence we are dealing with friends and brothers as John Mann refers to. LEG: League of Extraodinary Gentlemen. And thats how it should be. My comments were meant to question how us unwashed, who use Mikes services or anyone elses, need to be chastised by 8BORE for making a few of our vintage guns shootable for our needs. Nothing directed at you other than Ken was seeeming exempt from the lashing of having barrels done. No harm,no foul. Not offended by 8BORE's comments, just puzzled by the content of such. Lets focus on getting a mediator to resolve Ken and Larryguy's issues with Mike. Randy

There has been some "mud slinging", and I believe the difference is that both Ken and Mike are professionals. Ken takes on engraving work and maybe the client asks about some barrel work, Ken states that he has just the man and by the time he is done with the engraving he should have the barrels back.
Ken has quoted a time line to his customer and I'm sure this was explained to Mike and he likewise gave a time.
Now the engraving is/was done and no barrels, how does this make Ken look?

I'm sure and it is true with any profession, you sometimes take in more than you can handle, that happens, but there is no excuse to the person that you cashed the check without even stating the work.

I've seen what Ken has done and the responses from clients and others, have also read about the great experiences from Mike, BUT there is no excuse for him not to call Ken or anyone else who's project he has had for a lengthy time.

It would make me want to think about having someone do a job and not know when to expect it, especially if told a certain date time.

No champion stepping forth from the ranks of The League of Average Joes Who Think Well of Ourselves? Those who have been stiffed (or, at the very least, ignored) have had a chance to identify their natural allies. Better make common cause and bring more than one gun to bear (in a manner of speaking of course). Calling shame on you in a public forum doesn't appear to serve much purpose besides warning others off.

jack

the sad part of all this. Is that it could have all been settled with Ken's call or Email being answered.Unfortunately some people think they or what they are doing is more important than their customers. I am very new with anything to do with shotguns and got interested as i am wanting to build a Double rifle. But be assured myself and anyone else who might need work done. Will be aware and make a decision based on some of what is said here. JMO. Whitey
PS I am biased as I have known,respected and been a Friend of Ken's for many years and know when you have upset him. Something smells.

How can Orlen who is supposedly MIA, be currently moderating and participating in online discussions on shotgunworld.com?....... From personal observations on this forum Mr. Hurst has been nothing short of a first class stand up gentleman since his arrival, and he deserves far better than the run around treatment he's getting from a man who continues posting about gun smithing topics on another web site.......... If Mr. Orlen was looking to cut his own throat, it appears he is succeeding. It is ridiculous for Orlen after this length of time and as a registered member of this site to pretend he is not aware and somehow unable to respond to this situation raised about his character and performance while he continues posting on shotgunworld.com...... It's obvious by not answering, Orlen has chosen to turn a blind eye spitting in the face of Ken Hurst and many others here with valid questions concerning their money spent long ago and Orlen work still not delivered. I seem to remember a well known guy who worked on Win-21's that started down this same road, and it did not end well. Best of luck Mike in your non responsive silence, cashing checks, not answering the phone or responding to emails, how's that working for ya so far?????????

RMC, Ken Hurst is a very good friend and I am sharing situations with him regarding more than one gun job gone bad. My comment about Orlen's work is more tongue in cheek than pugilistic. I'm sure he does good work, but most of his customers are mislead by a modern attitude that a barrel butcher can make you a better shot. Orlen has found a niche in the gunsmithing world that should be lightly utilized by double gun owners, in my opinion. Double gun owners should realize that every duck gun can't also be a quail gun, especially when most of us already own a baggo quail guns. No, I am not criticizing Ken's use of Orlen's services.

Unfortunately, these attack threads on Mike Orlen have come and gone on tthis bbs for years; and Mike NEVER responds publicly. He knows he cannot change anybody's mind about his terrible business practice of not comunicating well with customers. All he can do is keep turning out good work, and let that speak for him.

What he likely is doing is finishing up Mr. Ken's barrel set, and it will show up at his door very well done and with a refund for the inconvenience. Sometimes the mob effect around here is not...well, you know what I mean...Geo

I have not ever had any work done by Mike, but what I am hearing is all to common among gunsmiths. I have had many experiences like this over the years. I am pleased to say by now I have found some great ones. While many of the gunsmith can be quite talented and fantastic, most seem to be very poor businessmen.

It is all too common for them to give you a time frame and not even be close to it. Not returning calls when the know why your calling. Ignoring you, because they screwed the pouch.

While most of use realize that things can get delayed, unexpected personal problems come up, etc. I would respect and understand that if a gunsmith contacted me ahead of time and explained the situation, I would be more understanding and more willing to swing with him. ( Not waiting till way after the time promised and then giving me all the excuses why it was not done. IE; ran out of gas, gold fish died, could not find car keys, dick got caught in his zipper, etc)

Not responding is just not acceptable which seems like what Mr. Hurst has here. From what Mr Hurst has said, he has given Mike many times to contact him both by phone and mail with no responce.


Best


John Boyd
Quality Arms

What you are saying Geo. is some peoples money is better than others to Mike, and we should just accept that right?
He evidently doesn't do fifo, more likely cash-o.
A person is a fool to stick up for that.
He might be the Jesus Christ of the choke boring world, but he won't get a dime of my money.
I hope Ken's problem is based on a barter deal gone bad (one side welching) and not a large pre-paid transaction.
All the chosen people can stick up for this all they want, but they are fooling themselves. When the next "I'll pay cash, put me in front of the line" guy jumps their project, they'll be right where Ken is. And have to like it.

Bad/illegal/practices are bad/illegal practices.

This has been one of the most perplexing threads I have ever followed on this board. I have no doubt the poor experiences suffered by some are genuine. But for reasons I certainly can't explain, mine have been the opposite. I've had about 3-4 jobs done my Mike Orlen--stock bending, honing chokes etc. Each time, even the first, he answered my emails almost immediately, completed the work within a week or so, and billed me via email with a scanned invoice. The latest was a month or so ago, same experience.

I have no relationship with him, have never met him, and have talked only briefly on the phone (he always answered). So I can't for the life of me figure I'm some sort of favored client. So I am chalking this whole thing up as one of life's great mysteries. But I felt I had to jump in as my experiences have been good ones--why I've been seemingly favored I have no idea.

Those who preach patience have obviously not done business with the three gunsmiths who come to mind, from NY, NC, and FL. Should we recommend that the customers of these three guys continue to be patient?

George, this is no attack on Mike Orlen.
This is Ken Hurst trying to get his property from Mike Orlen, who is completely out of integrity - not returning emails, not answering calls or returning calls... and this has been going on for months.

Attack?
Not so much.

I have had gunsmith delay or fail to complete work for just about every reason you can think of. One went bankrupt and left town. Local cop helped me get my gun back. One died, he was way behind on his work and kept taking more in until he passed away. Honest man that he was, every gun had the check taped to the box. I think he kept taking work in because he thought he would get better. Bit of a problem getting the gun back because they had so many to return. He never seemed to have cashed one in advance. I do miss him. One ran off with another mans wife and left his entire life behind him. One sold my gun and pretended he never got it. Saw my gun at a gun show a few months later. That was a [censored] to get back. One fellow took so long to finish my job he thought I died. Three years almost and I had forgotten about the gun several times. One fellow had his father died and that caused him to take forever to get the job done. Funny thing is that his father died twice in three years. Must have been hard on his father.

Now to be fair I have been having gun worked on for over 35 years and used several dozen gunsmiths for a hundred plus jobs. About two thirds of them have no concept of a calendar or due date. All will give you a date and then you need to start from there. I think their wife takes 13 month to deliver by their calenders. Many have had no people skills and hate to be bothered with petty questions. A few were thieves and or con men, many were experts in their own mind and a few were hacks and BS artist. You live and learn. A skilled smith can do anything if he sets his mind to it.

The good ones are like painless Dentist. The bad ones are hacks who you regret ever sending a gun to and make a solemn promise never to use again. To move from the one column to the hack column is very easy and never does one move back in my book. Word of mouth in this case is death.

hey eightbore
who the heck qualified you to judge anyone's character? Mega thousands of post may qualify you on matters of double guns, but to malign the character of us bottomfeeders that just state FACTS isn't necessarily a glowing indication of your superior character and hardly qualifies you to judge the clients of another individual. Internet heroes. Stick to the assasination of the truly worthy, and stick your snobbery where the sun don't shine. Sorry, but you asked for it. So, here is your defender of the great double gun dreamers and unwashed. Flame away. (ps never met Mike or Ken, so I can't moralize on their character).

Rick

How about that? You must have missed my post, way back, that admitted that my comment about barrel rapists' character was tongue in cheek. Recognition of sarcasm and humor is a bit hit and miss on these sites.

Apologies are in order,then. Sorry, I didn't see it, and let my emotions get the best of me. I knew it was the wrong thing to do when I sent it. I really don't have a horse in this race anyhow.
Sincerely
Rick

8BORE, my apologies also. I read it at face value and it touched the same nerve that's being short circuited by all the Washington nonsense. Randy

I do have an agenda beyond soliciting apologies. Like some like minded participants on Dave's site, I wish people would spend their barrel raping money on shells. Learn to shoot your tight bored guns and reduce your supposed recoil by shooting lighter loads rather than drilling out the forcing cones. A very good friend is wondering how to put the choke back into his NID 5E Trap that he had removed several years ago. Somehow, I have survived fifty years of owning over four hundred shotguns without modifying the chokes or forcing cones on one. I'm sorry about Mr. Orlen and his situation, but this too will pass.

I agree fully. The worst thing that ever happened to the shotgun is the choke. The second worse thing that ever happened was the idea that you could modify a choke.

The truth of the matter is...if you missed a shot it's because you didn't shoot too good, not because you had the wrong choke.

Bill, I agree with you 100%. How many people come on here with a new purchased sxs and have never fired it, want to open up the chokes, open up the forcng cones and put a recoil pad on it.
Like you stated learn to shoot it with the proper shells and you won't have to do any of the above mentioned things.

Of course if the stock is short than something has to be done.

I've seen several guns, my Tobin included, that featured forcing "steps", not cones at all. The gun was produced somewhat early in the last century, and, whoever ordered it must not have read Frank Major Tobins report and opinion that most shooters would be better off with minimal choke in their gun, since it had about .039 and .045 constrictions in the 28 inch barrels. Maybe it was a duck gun in a former life? A 16 gauge duck gun?
Well, it isn't now. The original pistol grip stock of ho-hum walnut featured 3 1/2" of luscious drop, perfect for all you 4' neanderthals out there, but, useless for me. Whoever thinks you can hunt early season grouse in western WI or eastern MN with chokes or a stock like that, I'm going to guess hasn't done it.
Things change. Our powder isn't an explosive anymore, plastic shot cups came along, and those two things alone eliminated the need for most forms of choke. Pattern testing before and after with my old gun revealed a startling difference, plus, the ends weren't ripped off the fired rounds, leaving jagged plastic hulls suitable only for loading 2" 16 gauge ammunition.
My late Father had a fasination with gee-gaw plastic shotgun sights, likely brought about by Marine Corps training that gave him proficiency with his rifle far beyond what is typical for foot soldiers. I didn't share it, and just quietly removed them when he didn't need his guns anymore.
Would I modify the Tobin again? Absolutely. It wasn't Roosevelt's gun, after all. It didn't go to Africa in a documented safary of some sort.
Most of them don't. A lot of people don't seem to realize that, however.
It's a gun. Shoot it. Your history and memories should be more important to you then some gun's history.
Best,
Ted

8BORE, So your comments were not tongue in cheek !!! Your intent was to look down on those of us who you accuse of having no respect for our vintage guns. I see!! If I had a trainload of SXS's like you, I could probably find a few with the proper chokes and fit. Buying shells and more practice?? Hitting a woodcock or grouse with an xtra full choked Sterlingworth and watch the feathers float to the ground seems to be a waste, but it would reveal excellent marksmanship. Have you shared your thoughts with Ken Hurst regarding his engraving on those treasured field grades? I agree, what a shame. Just a thought, but maybe your way of thinking has convinced Mike to stockpile all the barrels he's received for choke work and put them in protective custody. That would keep us butcher's from doing things that big brother sees as unconscionable. I assume broken parts such as firing pins and hammersprings should be left as is seeing it's just part of the life cycle of the vintage gun. Yep, hit the nerve again. Thanks for clarifying your tongue and cheek comment, I get it now. This is probably a petty issue and small in the scheme of things, but your comments as trite as it may seem, lightly challenge my right of free choice and freedom, thus prompting my overbearing reply. Hunter/Gatherer

Gee...and I just checked in on this thread to see if Ken ever did get in touch with Mike Orlen.

I guess I will just have to give him a call to find out.

Ok guys, there goes the bell for round 3 LOL

Randy, I can see the profile of your tongue-in-cheekness, but I don't think Orlen is/was/will be worried by barrel rapine defined as long cones. The old "Choke and Chamber Music" site had a sidebar on the benefits of the revision of short cones.

jack

I had Mike Orlen open the chokes on my 64' Superposed. The factory chokes were M/F. The full choke was .048 and the Mod choke was .039. Not exactly useful for any bird hunting that I know of or do. Patterned the gun and as suspected, it was atrocious. I had Mike open the top barrel to .020 and the bottom barrel opened to .005. Guess what suckas.....now its actually "useable" in the field and was responsible for a good number of both pheasants and quail this season. The Superposed was meant to be used, not sit in a safe.
I offered this same superposed up for sale on this board for what I felt was a very reasonable price before I sent it off to Mike to have it "raped". There were no takers then to save my pristine Superposed from its trip to the grim reamer. Oh well. Goes back to the main point...its my gun and I'll do with it what I please.

By the way....Mr. RMC is SPOT ON.

Dustin

Ever find one that fits?

Gunsmiths!

Timing is such a difficult thing to sort out. Sometimes I get a gun back a week after I put it in for rejounting or ejector regulating or new lock pins etc. Other times I wait for months and months and months.

I have had a Reiley hammer gun in the workshop which needs a new horn finial fitted to the forend - for two years! In the interim I have had a pair of Holland & Hollands re-stocked and overhauled, a Purdey sleeved and re-stocked, another H&H re-stocked, numerous re-joints, strips, cleans and re-chequer jobs etc..

I have a Boswell hammer gun that needs a pair of chamber sleeves sunk into it - I have been waiting for over two years!

I had a Lancaster boxlock for re-stocking the forend that I took home after two years of waiting and sold 'as was'.

What is the story?

Well, gunmakers take on whatever work comes in and they have only the one pair of hands. Like the rest of us, some work appals more than other work and it is all too easy to pick up something they like the look of rather than a job they have been avoiding. Also, some jobs may appear more urgent than others.

Unfortunately it just goes with the territory. It is the bane of my life and explaining to a customer that their gun is 90% ready but I am trying hard to get the gunsmith to re-chequer it; the final job, but he keeps not doing it, is always a chore.

Still, this is the way it is. Too few good gunsmiths and too much work for them to do.

Recoil Rob, good question. Yes, I have a bunch that fit, and a few that don't. When I go on a hunt, I pick one that is right for the job, don't ship it off to the gunsmith. For clay targets, I shoot them as they come, because I'm not making my living shooting clay targets. When I shoot for money, I definitely pick one that fits and has chokes that are suitable for the job. Concerning Ken Hurst's great work upgrading field grade guns, I have one in the hopper as we speak. However, the chokes will remain at full and full. It will be my dream Fox pigeon gun when finished. I actually object more to the money that is being wasted by gun owners who can't shoot than I am by the modification of collectors items. Some of my nicest guns were bought cheap because of the modifications made by previous owners. I guess my favorite is my wife's DHE Parker Trap with factory single trigger, straight grip, beavertail, and 26" barrels overbored and rechoked to IC and MOD by a previous owner. Many years ago, a famous Texas dealer (still barely in business) advertised the gun as a factory skeet gun, sold it for the big buck, refused to take it back when the buyer confronted him. I bought it from a subsequent owner for a song. He displayed it at a local gun show with a tag that said "DHE Parker, cut barrels". It is a wonderful gun.

Bill, shooting from a blind, M/F is too tight around here. These old guns produce gobs of shot that pulverize. I've had whistlers shot so badly that my Lab would gag and spit them out on the shore, literally flattened, and wouldn't bring them into the blind. I eat ducks; I like to cook them. Before I die I'll screw up the courage to open one to C/C with the expectation of a grandchild gunner saying one day "This was Grampy's favourite duck gun." Immortality!

My dad had a saying: Get a gun and learn to shoot it. I guess that's what you had to do living during the great depression and WWII, when you were lucky to have a gun or shells at all. So, that's what I've always tried to do - never had a gun fitted, altered, "upgraded", etc. Turning anything into a science always seemed to ruin it for me, plus, from years I spent in the music business, I learned that the best players could take ANY instrument, play the sh!t out of it, and sound great.

I follow several shotgun boards, a couple of fly fishing boards, and a board for guitar players. Each has a wide variety of participants: "Experts", collectors, folks who obsess about the proper combinations of this and that, set up, specs, etc.,and a whole bunch of folks who just hunt, shoot, fish or play, and have fun doing it. I seem to fit best in that category.

I recently got jumped pretty good when I opined that it is silly to pay $100+ for a guitar capo; I still think it is, but I was surprised to find out how many not only think it's NOT silly, but actually think that if you don't own a $100+ guitar capo, you're not playing to the full potential of your instrument.

The only time I've ever used a gunsmith is when something broke, and fortunately that hasn't happened very often. I hope Mr. Ken and Mike work out their differences; from what I've heard and read they both seem like good fellows. Too bad this had to happen.

As for the differences of opinion of altering guns, whatever floats your boat. Like the kids say, It's all good.

Well said, Fin2Feather. My sentiments exactly! As a British gunsmith I know said, "Lord, it's a shotgun--shoot it!"

Eightbore....does it bother you that the chokes in your gun would be useless to me? Just curious what you'd do if one were destined to be your "dream woodcock gun?" or your "dream vintage skeet gun?" How about a 30", 6 lb, Fox 20ga with .032/.034" chokes? Would that be a dream anything?

On topic.... I have 5 Foxes that were raped by Mike Orlen. Each was rechoked to within .001" of my ideal. Not because that tolerance is absolutely necessary, but because he could and would. I wouldn't trust Briley, Inc. to do that on a bet. Each of the 5 is choked perfectly for the task I apply them to, and not one is either Cyl or Full. As far as I know, Burt Becker didn't make grouse guns or target guns, so I've relied on Mike Orlen.

You win, Mike. If I didn't have guns that would do anything I wanted them to do, I would mess with the chokes to make them do what I wanted them to do. So far, I haven't had to do that, but I imagine some day I will have a gun that needs changing. Actually, I was close to opening the chokes on my favorite Smith shooter which has 32" full choke barrels. Just in the nick of time, I located a set of 30" improved cylinder and modified barrels for less money than it would have cost to open the chokes on the long barrels. Lucky me.

Yes, that would be one of my dream dove guns for the desert. My most recent purchase was a Spanish sidelock 20 with 30" barrels, F&F, about 6-1/2 pounds.

So as this thread veers off topic to something to the effect of "Mike Orlen has done great work on MY guns, always has, had recently, and I don't think he's done any kind of disservice to ME!!"

...etc


Perhaps one of you guys who has such great and consistent success with Mike Orlen can pick up the phone and call him (and since he ALWAYS answers YOUR calls...) ask him to take a look at this thread and take action via calling Ken Hurst and making this little debacle right.


I'm sure that those of you who consider yourselves of strong moral character and of strong integrity would think that to be the right thing to do -- for your friend Mike Orlen that is, whether or not you think anything of Mr Hurst or his barrels...





Cheers
Tinker

Or, maybe let the guys with the issues fight their own battles....

Foxhound, your post is in very poor taste. I am sure that my friend Mr. Hurst is fighting the battle to the best of his ability. It would be a bit of a crapshoot to drive to Massachusetts to have a meeting with the local sheriff's office and/or State's Attorney. Some of us on this site have had to do that to deal with gunsmiths in NC, FL, and NY. Some of us are also short a gun or two even after such trips. Bill Murphy

Yeah...it's very popular to suggest the old 'drive up there and kick his ass' solution, I'm sure because it sounds like something Clint Eastwood would do. But I wonder how many guys who drove 600 miles to show up on the guy's front door step found out he had just left for a 2 week Aruban vacation.

Poor taste? First you insult, then say you were only kidding, then take the same arrogant attack to another thread? Now who is sticking up for a bud???? Mr. Murphy, not that someone as knowledgable or fine and upstanding and the obvious and ultimate taste and character meister around here can't have an opinion, but at least stick to it. Shouldn't be ashamed to attack the proletariat, should we now, ater all? And by the way, my comments should in no way be insinuated as an attack on Mr. Hurst, who obviously is a man of character and many people speak highly of. Unlike all of us that don't have or had 400 guns, huh Murph? Ps. My apology no longer valid. Enjoy your opinions, and I'll enjoy the guns I can afford however I see fit. And who the heck suggested violence Greg?

Rick

Ken is being treated like a rented Mule.
Only a complete headinkeister would spend a second defending that.
Every shotgun bulletin board in the world has post after post regailing the virtues of the man's shop, and he won't answer the phone? What's wrong with the picture fella's?

Send a registered letter, return receipt.
Then get a local attorney to follow the process to get the barrels back.
Better than to lose all.

The list is long of people and places involving firearms that went south. Get the barrels back. Start over.
I just was reading a SSM 1996 article about Andy W., I'll bet some of you wish you had got your barrels back from him too.

Clapper, thanks for the support. There is no reason for a person with a problem like this to "fight his own battles" when he has friends who can assist.

BBL"S received back as shipped from me. I regret having to have brought this topic up however, it appeared that this was the only way to get an answer. As I have stated many times before, Mr. Mike has done excelent work for me in the past with timely del.

Ken:

So glad you got the barrels back, everytime I would get on Doublegun I would think of you and wonder if you heard from Mike. I hope this brings this thread to an end, but there will always be questions in the minds of the pro and con Mike people from now on. Best of luck with the barrels.

No such luck, Abner. Happy for Mr. Ken but LarryGuy's problem is still pending for those with a strong compulsion to intercede.

jack

So, Ken's barrel's sat for 2 years, untouched, while everyone else's work was done as fast as the boxes could be opened. If the work was of a nature that the shop could not do promptly, they should have said so. That would have been the end of the discussion.
When I ran a tool shop, we had a range of tool makers. Apprentices to masters. Some guys only did some stuff. Some weren't very good at some things. Our schedule was based on who could do what, and how long it should take. We did not take work that the right people could not get done by the required delivery date.
I expect every gunsmith I work with to understand this, and respect it. Some don't like that, and I DON'T CARE.
It is no crime to say, I cannot get to it, I cannot do it, I don't want to do it. And there are those who will say, "I don't want to do it for you."
Honesty is the best policy.
Answering the phone is better yet.
Setting desk time aside to do that stuff, and tell all your customers, "I only do desk time from 7:00am until 10:30am, then I am in the shop", is better yet. Every craftsman has only time to sell. Customers should work to not waste the craftsman's time.
Waving cash around just makes you look like a beggar.

I'm glad Ken is back to zero. Now he can move ahead. There is peace in the valley.

CZ, very well said!

JC

Maybe Mike didn't get the messages because his name was misspelled.

This is why one should consider Krieghoff, Briley, Simmons, Kolar, etc. before sending item off to some second tier smith who offers discounted rates.

A version of my rant should be a sticky. It could be called, "How to work with Craftspeople"
It's all about clarity in the relationship.

All doublegun owners, furniture collectors, clock afficionado's, competition shooters, and anyone else that requires unique, specialized services, should respect the craft person's time and abilities. (You don't have the skills or the time, that's why you called me)
All craftspeople should know when they take their first paid job, that "When your living comes $50.00 at a time, you cannot afford to lose repeat customers".

I bear no ill will toward anyone plying their trade well. I actually send work to beginners so that as their skill develops, they are ready for more challenging jobs. I like seeing apprentices grow and develop. And not every task requires Michaelangelo. Specing a micro-finish may or may not be acceptable to some craftspeople.
But I am always clear in my expectations on the front end, and I would urge anyone using a craftsperson of any form to save themselves the aggravation, and get things straight at the beginning. It's cheaper.

We've all seen horror stories from the big shops here, too. Briley's had a hand in the destruction of a board member's 10 gauge Darne barrels, which, led to it's resurection somewhere else.
Paying a lot doesn't always mean you get a lot. Look at William Ford's pair of Purdey's.
Best,
Ted

William Ford? I handled a pair of Henry Ford II's Purdeys which had been mangled by some butcher, presumably in Detroit. He attempted to change the cast from "On" to "Off" (Henry was a lefty) When he finished, the locks wouldn't fire, safety didn't work, and the only way the guns would ever be right was to restock them. Incidently, At H&H, if they are going to put cast on a gun, they don't bend the stock, they bend the top and bottom tangs and the sidelocks, then the stock is straight to the mechanicals. Assume the same at Purdey.