That's about the oddest looking critter I've ever seen. Can't wait to hear if anyone can ID it.
Looks like a precursor to the Superbritte ! Belgian prototype??
- JBP
JBP, that was a thought from a British gunsmith friend. Might be the reason for no proofmarks. I don't want to lead us away from any other new ideas, though.
By engravings I'd say its German.
That does not look Belgian to me.
Prussian/German yes. Belgian no.
It does look neat though!
Can you get the fore-wood off and the barrels off for a better look all around?
I'm surprised that there are no marks on it.
Not even witness marks or maker's marks?
Cheers
Tinker
Geno, here's a couple of pics. I wonder if the checkering detail gives any hints.
Tinker, I did get all of the forend wood off, and no marks at all on wood or metal.
Sure would like to see the inside!
I would also think German or Austrian!
Craig
What does the front sight look like?
What do the muzzles look like?
Go ahead, show us more!
What was living in that dovetail?
Cheers
Tinker
I'd guess something from Sauer -
Have you had the stock off the action yet?
I wonder if it has intercepting sears..?
Cheers
Tinker
Greener patent 1880, but Greener o/u gun was hammer one with Daw under lever.
I wonder, if its prototype gun, where are first provisional proof marks on barrel tubes? Complitely home made critte?
Tinker, I don't know about the dovetail. My first guess would be an aftermarket item, but the barrels seem to have the original blue and the recess for the dovetail is blued along with the barrels. I don't have a picture at the moment of the sites, but there is a silver metal mid bead and an aftermarket looking white elongated front bead. Barrels measure 28" on the nose. I have not been able to get the buttstock off as the screw slots are thinner than the screwdrivers I usually use on British guns.
Identical forearm clamshell opener that's on my '90-'92 Lindner Daly with the exception of bits of the engraving - probably a "for the trade" item. Really did a "double-take" and had to look again at the photos...bizarre!
It looks like an English A&D boxlock turned sideways, but I'd sure like to see how the trigger blades trip the sears?
One VERY special double gun!
Daryl, I've got the screwdrivers if you want to bring it to my workbench? (We've got about 5" of new snow!)
Best,
Steve
Atta Boy Steve!
Get that sweet old thing open and let us see what's hiding in there.
The trigger linkages will be cool to see for sure.
I'm still thinking Prussian/German...
Cheers
Tinker
Engraving style, lever shape, some other details.... Ferlach (IMHO)
Seasons Greetings,
Jani
Case colors a bit suspicious looking. Torch job?
Geno, are you trying to make me feel bad this close to Christmas ? No, the finishes are very close to original. I would like to get it opened up to look, but that will have to wait until afte New Years. Plan to spend some time at a Hot Springs in B.C. and will leave SDH here to scoop snow. I am thanking you all for your perceptions and ask for more. Daryl
No, Daryl, I don't. Probably its photos
But this kind of gun is not alone. Belgium gunmaker Britte made O/U gun Superbritte in 1931.
Geno, I have been chasing a SuperBritte for years. If you look closely, they are completely different from this gun. I have bid on 4 SuperBrittes, or their varients by other makers or signers, in the last year or so, and wish I had been successful. On the other hand, I always appreciate the guns you bring into the forum and the knowledge you share with us. Oh, the hunting pictures are wonderful.
I just have found one ad in the RU-Net, where one owner sells Lebeau-Courally gun. By description its o/u gun with barrels open to the left. Maybe the same Superbritte. I've heard Francotte made it also.
I agree your gun is different. Will wait when you open this gun and find something interesting
Yes, we now understand that Britte made actions and barrels for many makers in Belgium, and the rest of Europe. At one time I thought maybe John Dickson, too, but those guns seem very different and probably only from Dickson. My thought is that the gun I have pictured is not that old. Could it be after WWII ? For sure after WWI. I think I said to someone that the gun looked like it was a project in a gunmaking school, where the Master gave the student some parts and said to "make it".
True, it has some attributes similar to an Austrian/Ferlach example but I think some of those originated in Suhl. It is a late 1940s example with a frame sourced from the Sauer plant, after the core Sauer folks vacated the premises, with typical pipe style side frame reinforcements as seen on Merkels. I think it to be from 1949 and the serial number fits into the Sauer series and there are only a few, and maybe only one or two firms whose series reach into that range. The wood to metal fit as well as the engraving tends to point to this period and as well I think it to have overhanging and intercepting scears due to the screw symmetry. Since the tubes are somewhat rotated I think the ribs are partially covering the makers marks. During this pre-MEWA/VEB time what was left of Sauer and Simson made an effort to ensure tradition by propagating the knowledge of the older expert craftsmen to the next generation thru education and this could easily be one example. BuHag(Buchsenmacher Handels Gesellschaft) I think was in place. Either a master craftsman proved to a journeyman that it could be done or either a journeyman suggested a wild idea and a master craftsman called his hand at it, which made the journeyman perform. It is one more odd, intricate bird with an odd shaped toplever. By the way all of the above is pure conjecture.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
With absolutely no proofs it could have been made in America!
Daryl, My best to you and Ann for the Holidays, Hope you are Flying to B.C.! I owe you email but will make a concerted effort to rendezvous after the holidays.
Shovelin' Steve
I REALLY want to see (and shoot!) this new one!
I really don't think it was made in America as the anti-German sentiment was very, very high and it would have to have been hid under the bed or in the closet for many years. Along with the rocket scientist, I'm sure German were here or on their way here and had the ability and desire to make such an example.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Perhaps we will never know the true maker. A very interesting action but not like the SuperBritte I use to have. It just looks much less refined in the lines and it looks very stout to my eye. I suspect a Germanic origin. No proof makes me think a prototype or a personal gun for the inventor. Perhaps he ran out of time or money before the project was done. Or the SuperBritte came out at the same time and took the market away. Two major wars and a World wide depression had to kill many dreams and projects. One more time where we wish these old guns could talk and give us their life story.
Raimey,
"the serial number"... What serial number? I can't see it...
With kind regards,
Jani
Jani:
It was on another pic that was supplied to me and the position of the number is typical of BuHaG examples as is the slanted cylindrical crossbolt. I have a 1956 BuHaG example that is in the 29k range with an August Schuler stamp on the frame as well as the Simson triangles. Interesting also is that "Simson" in script underlined is on both tubes along with "?? Special-Gewehr-Lauf Stahl S???" A question I have is where are the cocking indicators and why were they left off? Maybe a conflict with design?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, for post war East Zone or GDR that's impossible, moreover thats impossible for Buhag.
I can't see s/n, but my guess to check it with Meffert prewar serials.
Thanks, Raimey.
It may well be a Suhl frame but the finished product still whispers "Ferlach" to my ears. Lack of indicators is yet another indication in this direction.
As I see it, one possibility is that it was made for a high ranking Allied (British?) officer in occupied Ferlach, possibly circa 1947, before the formal production was restarted (circa 1948?). He could afford to skip the formal proofing - if it was operative at that early date at all.
With kind regards,
Jani
No, Jani. I saw many German Suhl guns made for officers, but without proofmarks. All of them bear caliber markings first of all.
It may well be a Suhl frame but the finished product still whispers "Ferlach" to my ears. Lack of indicators is yet another indication in this direction.
As I see it, one possibility is that it was made for a high ranking Allied (British?) officer in occupied Ferlach, possibly circa 1947, before the formal production was restarted (circa 1948?). He could afford to skip the formal proofing - if it was operative at that early date at all.
Jani:
I hadn't considered that but I do know of a couple instances up into the 1960s where a couple cartons of cigarettes, a Russian machinegun barrel and a Mauser action, could get you a finished rifle as well as re-fitted/retro fitted examples going back to the U.S. of A. "somehow skipped the proofhouse stage". I will concur that it has elements of a Ferlach example but still I think the resemblence reverts back to a Suhl origin. But then again I am not at all familiar with the occupation of Austria.
I think it was in Mr. Cate's book that a Sauer example in the 380k range was made for General Curtis Lemay in early 1950, but it wears proofmarks.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
"No" what, Geno? What you say is supporting my theory in one important respect (lack of proof marks), and there were certainly some differences between Suhl and Ferlach procedures under post WWII occupation. As far as I know (without checking sources) Suhl was occupied by the Russians/Soviets, and Ferlach by the British.
With kind regards,
Jani
Raimey, for post war East Zone or GDR that's impossible, moreover thats impossible for Buhag.
I can't see s/n, but my guess to check it with Meffert prewar serials.
Geno:
What is "it" that is impossible. Post WWII up thru 1949 things were all 6s & 7s/upsidedown in Germany and during this time about anything was possible. BuHaG more than likely wouldn't have peddled it but the existing craftsmen who had no other choice but to stay could easily have made it, either using stock on hand or making every component, which would have been a requirement of this example.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I don't know about Ferlach occupied by British, but I know about Suhl, Buhag, Eastern Zone and GDR. Buhag just finished guns made by Merkel, Simson, Sauer departments. They never made something unusual. When Buhag came to life all GDR production had to be certified.
BTW. I've been told Fanzoj family made something rather like.
