No doubt, there are plenty of examples of Ithaca guns exhibiting change overs. Often frames, lock up, pins, barrel steel, engraving, etc. have been blended to use up inventory. I just happened to find this one while laughing at the "rare" comment.... till I looked at the pics, or are there others?
http://www.ivorybeads.com/site/default.a...&FSID3=2801 No, I do not own the gun, nor did I sell it. I'd be out shooting birds if my dog didn't have a hole through her foot.
Just another aficionado.
It sounds like your trying to promot some interest in the gun because the question. But if not, the commit, rare, IMO, is because of the early engraving combined with the minty condition. Those combined do give it a rare qualitity.
tim
Their text says 1913, but the serial number table in Walter's book says 1914. The early 1915 Ithaca catalogue still shows the No. 1 1/2 with the zig-zag border engraving, and by mid-1915 Ithaca magazine ads show the new bold floral engraving --
At any rate it appears to be SOLD, and does seem to be a very interesting transition gun. The early 1915 Ithaca Catalogue only offers the No. 1 1/2 with Damascus barrels, but the mid 1915 magazine ad offers Damascus or Krupp.
I like it; not "Ideal" but interesting.
Hi Tim, as I said, I'm not the owner, seller, buyer, or dealer. As Dave noted, the gun has been sold.
Thanks for looking Dave. Have you ever seen another 12 with Krupp tubes, rolled engraving, the "zig-zags", and the hand floral engraving on the trigger plate? And please, take another look. That floral is not typical.
Looks like Walt was here and gone without comment. I wonder if he noticed the thread.
The gun obviously sold because of the condition and maybe a secondary reason may have been a scarce engraving pattern for the grade. It is a wonderful looking gun and regardless of why it sold, it sold.
I think it unusual to have scroll on the bottom but not the sides. Nice piece.
My 1 1/2 was made in 1913 and has the same type of engraving of the Ivory beads gun. Mine is built on the small narrow 16-20 ga frame which is nice and unusual. It also has beautiful damascus 28" barrels and an Ivory and brass bead. It has been my favorite quail gun
Here is how the No. 1 1/2 was pictured up through the early 1915 catalogue --
This picture is actually out of the Fox & Crows catalogue believed to be 1912-13.
Stallones, if you have a similar gun, would you be willing to share a picture of the side and the floor plate? I can post them if need be.
At first glance, the I-B gun doesn't seem so unusual. The frame does have the point engraved at the rear of the frame... but the engraving does not outline the frame. It also has some extra scroll. The breech ball engraving is different. The floor plate looks amazingly similar to an Ideal grade Smith. It's not like other 1 or 1&1/2's that I own or have seen. Maybe I just haven't looked at enough of them. That's what I'm trying to figure out.
I have an interest in early engravers and their connections to different gun companies. Hope to put something together in the future on the subject.
I just thought that a few Ithaca fans might like to add the pics to their own files while still available.
Thanks for the responses, everyone.
take a look at gunbroker item 148188591; another nice ithaca grade 1 1/2 made in 1912.
That's a grade 1 is it not? I thought the 1 1/2's had more floor plate engraving, but I am no expert.
No. That gunbroker gun is exactly as shown in the catalogues up to early 1915 for the No. 1 1/2. The No. 1 and the No. 1 Special didn't have the zig-zag borders and other engraving, just had the roll stamps on the sides.
Here is a Flues No. 1 Special shipped 5/25/1915 pre and post Turnbull --
Dave, did you take another look at the I-B gun?
very nice gun and thanks for the info, keep my studies to parkers mostly. What was the difference in Field grades (water table stamped with an F) and No. 1's. Please don't take this as an insult, just curious. I have few ithaca guns, (some A grades, nitro lefevers, and a couple of NID's) bought them because I thought the price was right, and they handled well.
R.R. I've looked at the pictures of that gun Jim and Jerry had several times I'd say there is more engraving work in it then the later all floral No. 1 1/2. Maybe more of a No. 2-.
Early on the Ithaca No. 1 had some engraving and twist barrels. Then in the later Crass years they added a No. 1 P that was plain and just had the name and dog roll-stamped on the sides of the frame. Then they thought there was a market for a lower priced Dmascus barrel gun and put Damascus barrels on this plain roll-stamped frame and called it a No. 1 1/2. Probably about this same time the No. 1 with engraving disappeared and what had been the No. 1 P became the No. 1. About the time the Lewis Model came into being steel barrels were entering the marketplace and the No. 1 Special with the plain frame and Cockerill Steel barrels was added to the line. Then toward the end of the Lewis era Ithaca added an even lower priced gun, the Field Grade with Smokeless Powder Steel barrels and a half-pistol grip. By this time the various No. 1 and 1 1/2 had a capped full pistol grip. I'm not sure when the No. 1 1/2 got the zig-zag border engraving, but it is there by the 1912/13 Flues Catalogue. As steel barrels became more popular these various low-price Ithacas got steel barrel options. When WW-I cut off the supply of composite barrel tubes all these minutely different qualities became redundent, and during 1919 Ithaca consolidated the No. 1 and the No. 1 1/2 as the new No. 1 with the bold floral engraving that the No. 1 1/2 had gotten in mid-1915. Also, at that time the Field Grade got a capped full pistol grip. Is that all confusing enough? It get worse. The boys down on the factory floor continued to use up frames that had already been stamped with the S for the No. 1 Special to build guns that now matched the catalogue description of the Field Grade.