Greetings all,

first time posting, but I've been lurking here for a bit...

I recently picked a J.P Sauer & Son Boxlock 20ga. from Cabela's up here in Maine and I have some questions I hope can be answered here. I'm looking for a date of manufacture and any specific info on the model. From what I can tell its not a Royal or a Model 60.

Some characteristics:

J.P Sauer & Son stamped on Krupp barrels, not J.P. Sauer & Sohn, which leads me to believe that this was an import meant for the American market.

Seriel #: 141788

Chamber size indicated on the barrel is 70 mm which I believe is 2 3/4"

Weight is 5 lbs 7 onces

Breach has "Made in Prussia" stamped on it.

Also, should I want to replace the stock and forearm where would be a good place to start.

Importer stamped anywhere, like maybe Von Lengerke & Detmold? The "Prussia" should definitely put it pre-WWII; not sure when they stopped using that.

No date code on the barrel flats? It'd be 3 or 4 digits, month and year. My guess would be not all that old--as in no earlier than the 1920's--because of the 2 3/4" chambers, unless maybe they were lengthened and someone restamped the gun.

I own a circa 1906 JP Sauer und Sohn 16 Ga. with original 70mm chambers and stamping.

Replacing the stock and forend sounds rather expensive.
Does it have a doll's head extension or Greener crossbolt?
What is the pin/screw configuration at the back of the box?
Any sling swivels, cheekpiece, horn pieces or menacing muzzle?
What grade of Krupp steel tubes? Sauer was big buddies with Krupp and purported as the largest purchaser of Krupp steel for tubes; therefore, it could be possibly that most, if not all, Krupp tubes with the Krupp Lauf Stahl, 3 rings, etc. was sourced from Sauer as were many frames.
Does it have the large and/or small crowns on the barrel flats?

Sounds like a S,D&G from 1910, 1911, 1912 as a guess.

Sauer No. 1 - doll's head, upper hinged/overhanging scear

Sauer No. 2 - Greener crossbolt, upper hinged and lower intercepting scears

Sauer No. 3 - same as No. 2 with sideclips & select walnut and engraving.

I doubt it to be a 40, 45 or 60.

Procure a 1907 or 1912 S,D&G reprint from GGCA to go along with it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

According to our member Jeff Stephens' article in DGJ Autumn 2004 on J.P. Sauer and Sohn the number falls in year 1908.

Question on the 2 3/4"-70MM chambers: When did 2 3/4" 16 and 20ga shells first appear? Anyone with very old catalog information? We know that in the case of the 16ga, American guns weren't factory chambered 2 3/4" until the 20's (even 30's in the case of some companies). Concerning 20's, the Winchester Model 12 started out as a 20ga--chambered 2 1/2". Makes me wonder about pre-WWI European guns, especially smaller bores, with 70MM chambers. Were they shooting 2 3/4" back then? Something doesn't add up here.

One thing which definitely needs to be understood here is the difference between "Standard" & "Availability". I don't have any exact dates as to when "First Available" but 2 3/4", even 3" for that matter shells were available in both 16 & 20 gauges well before the turn of the century (1900) on order.

I have a ca 1909/10 Lefever Arms Co H grade 16ga with 3" chambers. Are they Factory?? Who knows, but one thing is for certain, 3" 16ga hulls would have been easier to obtain then than very much later. A lot of the availability of non-standard hull lengths disappeared around the WWI time frame with emphasis placed on standardization, which also applied to shot sizes, loads, etc.

PS; The Stevens "Short Frame" pump gun which preceded the infamous Win 12 was in 3" 20ga. I seem to recall its date being 1910, but operating from memory here. That was certainly not a "Standard" chambering for the day, but was "Available".

Another issue/question is centered around just what was the state of the double when it was issued a serial number? Was it a block of steel, in the white, etc.? It was stock and stayed on the shelf until an order was to be filled and in that time frame it visited the proofhouse. If it is devoid of a date stamp(pre-1924) the considering WWI, it could have been on the shelf until post WWI and prior to 1923. Many time one sees preliminary proof on the tubes and then again on the flats. Also I think 2.5mm to have been the breaking point for reproof. So as some think, what if the chamber was 67mm +/-, then an additional 2.5mm could have been cut without reproof.

This is a bit off this topic, but what about all those claw mounts on doubles, or drillings, that are pre-1900? I guess circa 1900 to be the earliest date for a scope and Zeiss had an offering in 1904. At some time these pre-1900 black powder rifles had to be retrofitted.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As far back as 1886 and as far away as Russia, Sabaneev wrote in his book literally: "Shells come in three sizes: standard - 65 mm, long - 70 mm. and extra long - 75 mm".

I think, early makers were quite pragmatical about chamber length, making them just as long as necesery to fit the desired load. But. I used to load BP according to XIX-century recepies, and it's interesting, but a 70 mm paper shell has just enough room for 36 gramms of big shot with appropriate BP load, sufficient wadding and a roll crimp. So it seems logical that in BP days 70 and 76 mm chambers were more common than after introduction of nitro powders, which take much less space in a shell.

Thanks for the responses. I figured some pics might help to provide more info for an ID, Ill post them as soon as I figure out how...

Thanks again