I know this is a topic that has probably been hit on.. But I was just wondering about some of the better investments that some of us have made... Things that have appreciated better than what you thought they would, when purchased... I know the good will always be good, but what about those chance guns?

Well, I have had some great appreciation in nice red wines. However, I have never purchased them in quantities sufficient to do anything with but drink.

My Super-Fox has increased something like 20 time what I paid for it 46 years ago, but then my Bond Fund of America has done that over a shorter period of time, and it is not even a particularly good mutual fund. It would be a lot easier for me to go out and buy a nice Super-Fox today, then it was to scrape together the money and trade goods for one 46 years ago.

My gut feeling is that in the current depressed market one will do much better buying real estate then guns.

Years ago I thought that older American doubles were ripe for appreciation because of their mostly limited production and the expensive hand labor that all but stopped their production. Turns out I would have been better of buying SKS's and AK-47's for pure price appreciation.

An increase in value with the passage of time for any object is not a sure thing. An increase in value requires demand. Given the demographic realities affecting all the blood sports, I question whether any double will turn out to be a good investment in the long run.

What would you like to bet that if a survey of the users of this Web site could be done you'd find that the average age is north of 45? Folks who participate on this board may be introducing their kids to guns, shooting and hunting but others are not.

Guns that have an historical association (i.e. those with a wild west background such as Colt peacemakers) may appreciate because they have value as antiques and museum pieces and their value is unrelated to their utility as shooters. But that sweet little high grade 16 gauge that constitutes your idea of a perfect bird gun? If you can afford to buy it and use it and enjoy it, then do so. But it's only really valuable to bird hunters like you who "get" it and want it. Don't kid yourself that it's an investment.

A World War II era typewriter is, in a sense, a beautiful machine-age object with intricate hand-assembly and construction that today would probably have to sell for upwards of $1,000 to profitibly reproduce. Know anybody who wants one or uses one?

Right on the money Sir- well said indeed. A 1930's high grade LC Smith and an early Smith-Corona typewriter- both fine machinery but on double guns, you buy them "to shoot, not for the loot"- only another brother double gunner would be your potential buyer down the road, and the old "greater fool" theory is like the string than ran out on Madoff's "Ponzi scheme"--One reason why I only buy, own and shoot 12 gauges- supply and demand- more made than the smaller gauges- also I hunt larger birds (pheasants, ducks, geese-) all 12 gauge territory IMO--

I think the basic idea you all are overlooking is that a gun represent a middle ground between sound investment and blowing money. It also is something that can be enjoyed in the interim far more than a stock certificate.

I'll also mention that while it's fashionable to puff out one's chest and speak of "investing" as an only positive experience, it's more factual that a great deal of investing results in the investor looking pretty stupid.

Years ago I was into collecting Winchester Model 70's. If it has Winchester or Parker on the side many sound minds seem to loose touch with reality. My collection, not the largest by any means, increased more than I ever dreamed it would. I was lucky enough to find several very rare Model 70's in good to excellent condition. Best of all I remained under the radar and almost no one in the collecting field knew who I was or what I was after. Remain anonymous and the price often does not rise extra because people know you want and need their guns. Think of the term "rich collector" and you think about raising your prices right away. Problem is that I was never a real rich, "rich collector". When I sold the collection I netted enough to buy a new house.

I do not see any doubles with the potential to make real extraordinary gains in the short term. If you are after a long term gain buy land not guns. Larger parcels of undeveloped land will become increasing rare and hence more in demand over the next several decades. Guns I am afraid will fall further out of favor as our PC society deems shooting of all kind to be less correct behavior. As we old farts die and are replaced by fewer and fewer double gun enthusiast demand will decrease over time.

Sad, but true, even with the word 'double' removed.

Exactly why everyone should make it a point to take @ least one non-hunting/shooting kid hunting/shooting every fall...

I'm reading this thread with interest. If there is such an animal as an 'investment grade' double, what qualifies? Most of what I've accumulated, I paid full price for and doubt I'd come out if I had to liquidate. Luckily, I've never gone nuts and bought high dollar 'collectibles', just decent 'using guns'...Geo

George, the only "investments" of this type either need to be rare, mint condition or have a significant providence. Rare and mint condition are going to cost money unless the seller has no clue of what they are selling. Less likely today because the internet make information so easily available to any who want to find it. Field grade guns and guns we use as shooters will never appreciate very much because they will lack both mint condition and are fairly numerous.

I hesitate to tell anyone to buy Winchester or Parkers because the market is flooded with faked, refinished and upgraded guns. Experts have a hard time picking many of them up and a novice is sure to be screwed buying in this market.

Providence, if well documented, can add real value to a gun to the right market. It must be well documented or it is just a meaningless legend. Just because someone tells you a gun was owned by someone does not make it so. But if you can show that a gun was owned by someone it might make it more valuable to another buyer. After all, the world is full of blue dresses but one above all others was much more of interest a few years ago. I am sure to the right buyer that dress still has a great deal of value. One person who comes to mind would certainly burn that dress and all concerned with it given a good chance.

If I had any gun that had Providence I would tremble with a mixture of fear and excitement. Provenance, on the other hand, I could live with.

I just disposed of a Pinnacle non-linear editing system for ($0) The original cost of this still operable system was $16,000 around 15 years ago. Firearms have been relatively good investments for me as I have yet to figure out how to get any personal enjoyment out of stocks and bonds. I am primarily a used gun buyer and every one I own is now worth more than I paid for it.
If there is any shortage of shooters young and old,male and female I certainly haven't noticed it but that may be due to the fact that I like in a State like Arizona.
Jim

The issue is more about liquidity. Good deals can be made that result in immediate short time profit. But the next buyer isn't always near at hand, and hence the problem.
If you are going to collect, I have always been advised that you should either, "Go Deep", meaning narrow focus, and as complete as can be accumulated, or, "Go Wide", meaning items with a known broad appeal, so that liquidity is immediately available.
The yields from hard asset portfolio's are only garnered at sale, so you can't both keep it and have the return in hand. Unless you own a museum.

For most of us, our stuff will be sold at a loss by familiy members that want the cash, and for far less than we hoped for to people that are our friends.

Had a carrion sale at our gunclub last week, I missed the feasting. (or was it fleecing?)

Investment ????
Remember that gun you bought in 1960 for $300 ? If you take inflation into account you would have to sell it for $2200 today in order to just get your original "investment" back .
I tend to think guns maintain their value rather than increase in value .

Provenance, for cat's sake! Providence is in Rhode Island.

jack

My wife, who is a museum tough guy (three published books on registrarial method and practise) tells me that "provenience" is also used in some trades, such as archaeology. Providence is when you find the "greater fool" who really wants your last mistake.

jack

I think the correct term your searching for here is provenance which is the documented history of ownership of an item. For example; I have an antique "Queen Anne" period piece of furniture with a provenance going back to the original owner in the 1760s.
Jim

I have never sold a Parker for less than I paid. I have never had to send a Parker to a gunsmith. My "investment template" is as follows:

(1) Less is more. A collection should not exceed 10 shooters plus, maybe, 10 wallhangers, if you collect both. No one can really grasp more than 10 guns at one viewing session. More than 20 representative examples is an accumulation.

(2) Know your wants and needs so you don't go off half-cocked. There are plenty of good-condition shooting-man's Parkers always for sale, but if you are in it for, say, an all-original high-condition "Parker Story" grade CH(E) gun in any gauge (especially one the small bores), you better do your homework. I have had my feelers out since 1997 for a late-model (post-1925) AH (no ejectors, please) 12-bore, 28- or 30-inch, with a straight grip in 70% case colors or above with all-original condition, but no luck. Picking and choosing among the scarce guns with flur de lis drop points can take time, or compromises...

(3) Be a cash buyer; use cash as a club to not pay too much. You cannot go to a gun show and offer $5,000 for a gun with a $7,500 price and expect the seller to take an out-of-state check.

(4) Buy only original-condition shooters you absolutely love (high original condition is closer to new); a gun advertised as "New by DelGrego" or "New by Turnbull" is not new, any more so than a car is "New by MAACO" by virtue of having a new coat of paint. (These people are friends of mine and do good restoration work, but a gun restored because it needs it is not new by any common understanding of the word.)

(6) Compromise on grade and maybe slightly less case colors in original condition, but do not buy a gun in anticipation of flipping it when you find something better. Buy only to own for a long time. It is always easy to buy, but more difficult to sell, and when it is time to sell, high original condition trumps all else. Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers may bring big prices because of storied ownership, but Parkers that have brought high prices because of ownership provenance can be counted on the fingers of one thumb.

(7) I have always preferred to buy from among the "usual suspects," being well-known dealers. I have never had a negative experience with these people. Those who troll the Internet auctions should add something as an "insurance reserve" to the price they pay to make up for the potential hassle and risk. In the final analysis, almost all the truly "investment" quality Parkers are well-owned and will sell to or through first rate dealers or at one of the top auction houses. These people make a living moving good guns and they are due their commissions...

(8) From strictly a Parker gun standpoint, I expect the "usual suspects" will have sufficient inventory at the Pintail Point Vintage Cup next weekend to satisfy most wants and needs. Jim Julia has an auction a week later (Oct.6) with at least 44 Parkers cataloged. Forty-four is a magic number for me; when I started to get interested in earnest in 1993 I called HC for his list by mail, and when I got it there were 44 Parkers on it...I called in disbelief and asked if he really had so many on hand, and he said that he was always turning inventory, but, yes, he had at least that many. I loaded my Volvo S/W with my wife and Choc. Lab and drove 1,100 miles to Terrel TX...and now I think I know something about the "Old Reliable." Follow my advice and your purchased guns (Parkers or other well-respected makers) will be an "investment." EDM

I have never sold a Parker for less than I paid. I have never had to send a Parker to a gunsmith. My "investment template" is as follows:

(1) Less is more. A collection should not exceed 10 shooters plus, maybe, 10 wallhangers, if you collect both. No one can really grasp more than 10 guns at one viewing session. More than 20 representative examples is an accumulation.

(2) Know your wants and needs so you don't go off half-cocked. There are plenty of good-condition shooting-man's Parkers always for sale, but if you are in it for, say, an all-original high-condition "Parker Story" grade CH(E) gun in any gauge (especially one the small bores), you better do your homework. I have had my feelers out since 1997 for a late-model (post-1925) AH (no ejectors, please) 12-bore, 28- or 30-inch, with a straight grip in 70% case colors or above with all-original condition, but no luck. Picking and choosing among the scarce guns with flur de lis drop points can take time, or compromises...

(3) Be a cash buyer; use cash as a club to not pay too much. You cannot go to a gun show and offer $5,000 for a gun with a $7,500 price and expect the seller to take an out-of-state check.

(4) Buy only original-condition shooters you absolutely love (high original condition is closer to new); a gun advertised as "New by DelGrego" or "New by Turnbull" is not new, any more so than a car is "New by MAACO" by virtue of having a new coat of paint. (These people are friends of mine and do good restoration work, but a gun restored because it needs it is not new by any common understanding of the word.)

(6) Compromise on grade and maybe slightly less case colors in original condition, but do not buy a gun in anticipation of flipping it when you find something better. Buy only to own for a long time. It is always easy to buy, but more difficult to sell, and when it is time to sell, high original condition trumps all else. Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers may bring big prices because of storied ownership, but Parkers that have brought high prices because of ownership provenance can be counted on the fingers of one thumb.

(7) I have always preferred to buy from among the "usual suspects," being well-known dealers. I have never had a negative experience with these people. Those who troll the Internet auctions should add something as an "insurance reserve" to the price they pay to make up for the potential hassle and risk. In the final analysis, almost all the truly "investment" quality Parkers are well-owned and will sell to or through first rate dealers or at one of the top auction houses. These people make a living moving good guns and they are due their commissions...

(8) From strictly a Parker gun standpoint, I expect the "usual suspects" will have sufficient inventory at the Pintail Point Vintage Cup next weekend to satisfy most wants and needs. Jim Julia has an auction a week later (Oct.6) with at least 44 Parkers cataloged. Forty-four is a magic number for me; when I started to get interested in earnest in 1993 I called HC for his list by mail, and when I got it there were 44 Parkers on it...I called in disbelief and asked if he really had so many on hand, and he said that he was always turning inventory, but, yes, he had at least that many. I loaded my Volvo S/W with my wife and Choc. Lab and drove 1,100 miles to Terrel TX...and now I think I know something about the "Old Reliable." Follow my advice and your purchased guns (Parkers or other well-respected makers) will be an "investment." EDM

Well said, EDM.

Original condition is king.

99.9% of the time, people don't restore guns. They refinish them. And unless it's a bargain, refinished is not worth the $$$$.


OWD

There are many, many Parker collectors who own far more than 20 guns. I'd have a hard time faulting their direction. The expert/collector who feels 20 is an ideal number would own 100 if only he could get his hands on them.

Similarly, the fallacy that only high condition and/or high grade guns is a ruse put forth by those who are quietly buying all the guns that they are telling others to avoid. I'll buy all the $2,000 28 ga 30% case color guns you can point me towards.

There are many expert/collectors who own high condition guns that they don't even realize were in some way propped up or sometimes they do know it and aren't telling anyone.

The thing about collecting is there are few hard and fast rules.

I recently inherited 1/2 of my Father's collecton of firearms. My Father only owned guns he wanted to shoot, and, to a very large degree, the guns I got from him look the part.
I suppose his model 241 Remington, the first gun he purchased for himself new, circa 1946, or so, is worth more than he paid for it. Likely his Silver Snipe would be worth more than the $163 he paid, inspite of it's refinished stock.

But, for myself, and his only grandson, that misses the point by a long margin.

Keep only guns you enjoy using. Any "investment" will be found only there, usually. Your heirs can quibble about what it's worth, since, from what I've seen, few people liquidate before their end.
Dad didn't. I won't. I'm not betting on you, either.
Best,
Ted

There are plenty of people who die with a desk full of stock certificates. A lot of times those stocks are worth near nothing, also.


Then again, I guess a Winchester won't be as useful as a stock certificate if you run out of toilet paper.

I feel the best "return" I get from my gun collecting "investments" is not potential dollar appreciation but the interesting people I meet with a common interest. In my case it resulted in organizing the Fox Collectors Assoc. I have made many new friends and that has been most satisfying. As they say that return is priceless.

Its hit and miss,and its all a wash in the end,when all is tallied.
You`ll make some and lose most if your in it long enuf.
Patience for the sale will net more greenbacks,but makes it hardly worth it.
Buy what you like,at what is your fair price,enjoy it,part with it
only if something better comes along-and youre ready to.
Two steps forward-one step back...but we tend not to notice the one step back in the quest for upgrades.
If I kept every gun that was in my possesion at one time,I would easily have over 100 guns,but Im not into dead weight.
To answer the question.
You dont make money selling a gun,you make your money when you buy it.Buy it Right.

Lots of original finish is certainly desirable,but there are a lot of high dollar and eagerly sought after Winchesters and Colts that don't have 70% finish left.They do have original condition and sought after factory options.Rarity trumps condition for many collectors.One of the nicest doubles I ever saw was a B grade Lefever 10 guage with about 50% case color and beautiful patina on the barrels and stock.That was over 35 years ago and I wish I had had the $300 dollars the guy wanted for it.

Put your home up for sale, sell your Aston Martin - see how you do! Hey, cash outta the market also.
Not much of anything has retained it's value.

GLD (gold
SLV (silver), and SGG (Sugar)have all done pretty good for me !

The doubles may not be holding up well ,but Lugers and Wartime Walther PP and PPK's have been steady increases in value.The time you make money with guns is when and how you buy them,not when you,or more then likly your estate sells them !

About the time I graduated from high-school (1979) a correctly restored model A Ford in the right trim was worth almost $50,000. They don't bring 20% of that today. The worst investment of the new millinium is said to be any old mopar with a hemi engine in it but, that wasn't the case just three short years past.
I think I have about 19 guns, and my accumulation was static for many years before my Father's stuff came along and filled up the rest of the safe. Funny, but when I think of what I'd sell first, none of them jump to the front in my thinking. Hope someone makes some money on them, I doubt it will be me.
Best,
Ted

Gene Hill wrote a good article some time back about investing in double shotguns. He concluded they weren't good investments from a financial perspective. I was skeptical at the time, but have concluded he was probably right. That's not to say you can't make money buying and selling, but it's tough if you consider inflation (and the higher tax rate on the gain on "collectibles").

For about 15 years I was securities licensed, Series 6, 63 & 26. and I encouraged folks along with myself to invest heavily in mutual funds and insurance. I finally figured out that doing so was a lot like going to Las Vegas except you didn't get free drinks, a suite and a floor show.

I have bought and sold land and guns over 50 years and to this day I have never lost one dime in either. No, some property & some guns don't appreciate in value as rapidly as do some investments but then they don't have the downside risk of losing value either. Antique and Exotic Cars, Boats, Airplanes, Race Horses and such are playthings and most of the times should not be looked on as investments but rather large holes into which to throw money.

As was previously stated by Ed, original condition along with rarity is everything be it a Stevens 311 or an A-1 Special or anything in between. Buying with cash and seeking out the bargain will keep you in the game for the long haul. The workmanship and the friends that are made are really the priceless elements to be had.

Just My Humble Opinion......George

GregSY: You are 100% right on the fact that there are no hard and fast rules about collecting. However, I simply distinguish a collection from a large accumulation of inventory.

When I wrote my first book, many of my friends tried to refer me to the storied "collectors" with 300 Parkers, but I didn't have the time or the attention span to sift through that many guns to find the ones my prospective readers wanted to see in pictures and in print. As it was, I did sift through a 60-gun collection and found 10 guns of true merit, which I photographed and featured. The collector had three A-1-Specials, one truly wonderful, one not as good, and an upgrade; I suggested that he sell the two "yes, buts..." The ten guns I zeroed in on would have stood alone as a great collection, but were obscured by too much background noise of common guns. A true collection is somewhat like a museum display...

Bill Furnish donated his collection of seminal doubles (including about 40 Parkers) to the Cody Firearms Museum. They languished in storage for a number of years and some (30) are now on display in the basement, including 7 Parkers, of which only one has any real merit as a collector's item. Thus even the seven Parkers on display are not really a "collection" if they are mostly just common guns that occupy space, but don't grab the interest of other collectors.

Meanwhile, the Coca Cola guy's two guns, long on display at Cody (including the CHE .410), grab the interest (but not because of the Coca Cola connection)...as did the PH .410 I photographed for my first book (one of three made, and the only one in original 60% CC condition). Compare the interest of the CHE and PH to the three same-old same-old Parker VH(E) .410s pictured in the current DGJ: is this a collection or an inventory? And while it's nice to have the ownership provenance of a gun (as opposed to not having it), the fact that the president of a large real estate brokerage firm (or president of Coca Cola) owned a certain shotgun usually has little or no impact on the price (absent a name like Czar Nicholas or Annie Oakley).

Now skip forward to the next article @ p.55 and heed the author's sound advice: (1) Buy what you can afford; (2) High original condition is paramount; (3) "Partial restoration"? Maybe, but only if necessary; otherwise leave well-enough alone; and (4) Re-read #1--When it comes time to sell, high original condition guns are always in great demand. The author features four high condition guns; Trojan, VH, PH, GHE--THIS IMHO is a "collection."! As a counterpoint, buy all 44 Parkers in Jim Julia's October 6th sale and you will have an impressive inventory of Old Reliables, but will you have a "collection"? I don't think so.

Parting shot about the idea that an expert/collector would "...own 100 if he could get his hands on them," ignores the fact that a great many collectors have plenty of $$$ to buy any size of a large inventory, but mega-bucks makes them more selective, and selectivity is the key to any good or great collection.

Gun collectors are nickle-shooters when it comes to applying loose cash to acquire collectibles. The entry level for impressionist art is $10,000,000. I get antiquarian bookseller's catalogs with prices for books by Jane Austen (who?) in excess of the Czar's Parker. What if Larry Silverstein (who?) decided to get into Parkers? He owned the Trade Towers, and his insurance settlement was $13,000,000,000 (that's billion). If he wanted to be real safe with his $$$ and put it into FDIC insured accounts, he would need to find 56,000 banks at $250,000 each. Just think of how many $100,000 Parkers he could buy! People with money are more likely to buy an $800 bottle of Mouton Rothchild '88 than 400 bottles of Rot Gut. A person with $100 burning a hole in his pocket is well advised to partake of good eats at a fine restaurant rather than blowing his wad on "meal deals" at McDonalds. Less is more! EDM

House help and art are the first to go - then its the his and her's Beamers. Times been tough on the well-to-do.
The market is filled with their used toys of olden better days.
Commerical real estate has tanked, and they'd be hungry now for a Big Mac n fries!
Things gotta go.

Btw, the game has changed for those who have saved their nickles 'n dimes.
The newly rich are out-of-work and holed-up in a doublewide(and how they hate their new neighbors), the old money set(checkout the uppity golf courses) are dinning on paper plates. Time for those who have kept their noses to the work-a-day grindstone to score stuff.

This topic is just too interesting not to comment on. I think the idea of firearms as investments is a matter of perspective. My estimate of a return on investment involving guns has never had much to do with intrinsic value, but rather the pleasure of its use or the knowledge of historical value. I also think that the gun business is very difficult to survive in. I don't think there is too much room at the top for giant profits. But, as in any market one needs to operate and trade constantly to know the market and for the effort to be profitable. I don't think a buy and hold strategy, trying to predict a market for just one kind of shotgun, holds much opportunity.

EDM's analysis is correct- but here's the old "leveller of the playing field" whether an accumulation of guns (like my modest group of older all 12 gauge Smiths- all "shooters") or some original High Grade parkers or AH Fox guns, we all meet the "Grimster" sometime and those guns, whether users or safe queens, end up elsewhere- our heirs- first choice, but with proper safeguards so some shyster doesn't pick up your Uncle Ed's AAH 20 with extra barrels (one set for quails, one for doves Suh) from his Thomasville stompin' grounds- for a nickel on the dollar- and the old "Greater Fool" theory can't be denied, a spin on the late Bernie Baruch's "buy low, sell high" advice.

The late Robert Ruark once wrote about hunting quail (buurds) with Mr. Baruch and mentioned his (Baruck's) 16 bore side by bird gun. Anyone know the make, grade and configuration of that "escopeta" and where it might be now, as with the Czar's 12 A1-Special, etc.?? Just curious!!

I hesitate to sum up the present discussion with a short post, but I think I can. A true gun buyer, collector, accumulator, gun huckster, part time dealer, high volume shooter of interesting guns, or however you describe a guy who owns twenty or fifty Parkers, does not feed his collection with money earned solely at his day job. Over a lifetime, the owner of twenty or fifty Parkers has bought and sold many times that many marginal guns on the "buy low, sell high" principle. The nearly immediate profits from these transactions help to finance the twenty or fifty Parkers that are probably still in the gun room at the death of our collector. A five thousand dollar gun today would have to have been bought for a pretty low price to have kept up with forty years of inflation, but only if the gun were bought with money earned on the collector's day job. More often than not, this is not the case. Collectors are hucksters at heart and generally complete their deals with play money.

Very interesting points of view from many people who are more knowledgable and experienced than me, but I can't help but weigh in. I have collected guns since my college days, when you could actually have guns on campus. I even had a gun shop at one time and made fair money by the day's standards trading guns. I aspired to quality guns like Elsies, Foxes, Belgian Brownings, and some nice European stuff. (Couldn't afford a Parker until a few years ago.)

Over the years I've had some nice ones. Piece by piece I sold off most to afford other bad habits such as cars and women, the latter being the most tempting and simultaneously worst investment you can make. I made money on all the guns I sold. But what I found was pretty soon I had no gun and no money.

As I now limp into my sixth decade, I've decided that.. if the air conditioner ain't broke, there's gas in the tank and there's food in the fridge.. money is really pretty worthless. I'm buying guns to keep. At least they're investments I can take out of the safe and admire, occasionally taking one to the field. I hope when I die my boys sell them wisely, but then one likes cars and the other seems to serially attach himself to the above described fiscal fiascos.

By the way, I'm always interested in cheap deals on good guns and good deals on cheap women.

Bill: I have taken the liberty of paraphrasing your "summing up" of your rather narrow view of the manner of collecting fine (and not so fine) guns, which you believe is the mode. I see things through a different lens.

I admired my friend's Parkers in the mid-1970s and bought a Trojan 20-bore for $900 (not chump change then, but 25% of what I had just paid for a new International Scout 4x4). A week later a VH 16-bore came to my attention in a newspaper ad and I paid $650. Both guns were bought in 1974 with proceeds of my day job. And never since in 35 years of Parker collecting and shooting has there ever been any connection between my buying an incremental gun and selling another.

This does not mean that all "true" Parker collectors (other than Eightbore) adhere to my template, however, the greater number of people I know who collect fine shotguns are not self-declared wheeler-dealers who are trying to build an estate with profits from buying low and selling high "marginal" shotguns. When Jim Julia sold 129 of Jim Parker's Parkers in October 2005, I think it's fair to say that those guns had been acquired with funds derived from sources other than wheeling and dealing. Many of the Parkers in Julia's October 6, 2009 sale have named owners who are obviously not dealers or traders. I will have a table in the PGCA tent at the Vintage Cup this weekend and I am hard pressed to think of any others of the "usual suspects" who will share the tent at this remote and expensive venue who buy and sell to feed their Parker appetite. My point being that one size does not fit all.

Over the past 35 years I have owned about 30 Parkers, and have sold most of them for various reasons; for example, I sold all but one of my two-trigger shooters after I lost my right eye and had to learn how to shoot as a lefty (my left trigger finger can't sign checks or pull two triggers effectively). My NIB unfired Trojan 12-bore was strictly a play on perfection and I got tired of storing it, along with a certain 98% VHE 20-bore Skeet and a 95% VH--I wasn't going to shoot them; I could possess them forever because they were pictured in my books and articles, and it was someone else's turn. In other words, not all motivation to buy and sell is of the wheeler-dealer mentality. Circumstances change, interests change, and motivation can change independent of financial considerations and/or the blind pursuit of the next deal.

I will have five guns on my table at Easton MD, not to wheel and deal or feather my nest, but because it's time for others to own and enjoy that which has given me pleasure over the years. All five are seminal examples of American gun making excellence, A Parker lifter s/n 0895 (ca.1870); an Ethan Allen ca.1868; a Remington Whitmore s/n 190 ca.1873; a Philadelphia Fox s/n 262 (which is a dead ringer for a contemporary Parker VH); and "Tuck's" AAH pictured on the cover of my latest book. In fact, all but the Phil. Fox are pictured in my books and articles so I can, thus, "possess" them forever...and if I spot a Parker that interests me at the Vintage Cup...who knows? But whatever the case, there is a total disconnect, for me, between acquiring and dis-acquiring, and I believe that this is true for most of my Parker friends...or at least I hope so. After all, if liquidity in the stock and bond markets depended on everyone wearing their "I Got More Than That In IT!" T-shirts and making their "play money" nut on "buy-low-sell-high profits" then nothing would happen. EDM

I kind of think Ed made my argument when he mentioned having owned thirty Parkers and is going to the Vintagers to sell guns. This is exactly what I am talking about. People sell guns to buy guns and most people sell a lot of guns before the estate sale. I didn't mean to imply that we buy guns we don't like. We buy guns that we like, but often make good money on them which we roll into our next gun. Ed says that in 35 years,there has been no connection between his acquiring of guns and the selling of guns. I think his post says the opposite. Contrary to what you suggest about Jim Parker, I had known him for quite a while and he was definitely a huckster who acquired many of his guns by wheeling and dealing.

Bill: In actual fact, when I heard last spring that a table could be had in the PGCA tent, coincidental with my selling off my old-time-shooting research materials, Parker ephemera, and Parker collectibles, I sent the necessary $$$ without any plan to even bring a gun to shoot (just like when Kevin and I shared a table at Hidden Hollow). Had I sold all my "bling" at Hidden Hollow or at the Yooper in June, I would have let someone else have my Vintage Cup table and I'd be attending my 50th high school reunion this weekend instead. However, I still have paper and memorabilia that needs new owners so I am now here in VA ready to head to Easton Thursday morning...

And while at home in Illinois, as I was loading the R/V to head East last week, I decided at the 11th hour to bring some excess gun inventory...but the idea that my spur-of-the-moment decision had some connection to my off-the-cuff speculation that I might or might not buy an as yet unseen and/or unknown Parker is really heaping conjecture upon speculation to prove no point that I can fathom. In the final analysis, some Parker collectors tend to equate their own narrow life experience and singular motivation with the unknown situations of the great multitude of others not similarly situated . I try to take a larger view...allowing for "different strokes for different folks."

When I said that my acquiring and dis-acquiring of guns was "disconnected" (or not connected) I think that I'm the best judge of what I had in mind when I bought and sold in the past (or intend to sell now while being receptive to maybe buying something else). I don't attribute my mode of operation to everyone else, just some people I know and know of. Eightbore paints with an over-broad brush when he labels "all" collectors as "hucksters" who are constantly on the make, trying to buy low and sell high to feed their addiction to fine guns. So let's go back to where this started:

I think a perfect Parker collection is a maximum of 10 high original condition guns of varying interest (bore size, grade, special features). Attention spans are such that ten guns are about all a dyed-in-the-wool collector can chew and digest at one sitting. Thirty-five years ago Larry Baer made the point that it's better to own one high original-condition lower-grade gun than ten "yes, buts..." I agree, but others think otherwise...different strokes....

Some collectors like to wheel and deal as if the essence of owning a fine gun is in scalping the price, comming and going, by trolling gun shows and the Internet. From my view, there are plenty of good guns out there in well-known dealer's inventory, and while you might pay a bit more to Galazan and/or Chadick and/or the others, if you are deal-hunting on the Internet you had better add some "insurance" (mental reservation) for the risk you take; there's nothing worse than a gun deal gone bad--well, let me take that back...it would have been worse to buy the Dow Jones Index in October 2007 @ 14,280.

EDM

Yup, whatever, and most (never did use that "all" word) collectors get some of their collecting revenue by moving their inventory over the years. I would say that few knowledgable collectors pay for their entire collection with revenue from their day job.