Hi all, does anyone have any info on this maker and his guns?

Thanks for any help!!!

All the best!

Greg

Greg,
Otto Bock is a well known Berlin gunmaker (in a broad sense, maybe only dealer) from early 20th cent. He held the title of Royal Court Supplier. I'm quite sure Raimey will have more on him. BTW I can't find him in Der Neue Stockel so he was probably not active in 19th cent.
With kind regards,
Jani

P.S.: According to numerous sources Otto Bock developed and/or introduced the 9.3x62mm big game cartridge for Mauser rifles in about 1905. This round is still very much alive, as is its rimmed version 9.3x74R, popular with modern DR makers and users (9.3x74R was developed a bit earlier and not by Bock as far as I know, but both cartridges are very similar in ballistics and use same bullets).
-Jani

Thanks for the vote of confidence Jani. I’ve had a couple requests for info on Otto Bock but I’ve been concentrating on other Berlin makers up until now. I can’t seem to find a continuous thread on info on the gunmaker Otto Bock. There’s book dealer Otto Bock and 20th century German prosthetist Otto Bock. I’ve found a listing of an Otto Bock as a forester in the early 1860s and for now I think this to be the gunmaking Otto Bock or maybe his father. If this is true, he would have been born in the early 1840s. Some of his examples are on the Lefaucheux action so he would have been active at least by the 1880s, possibly later if the Lefaucheux action was the only solution for his unique longarms. At some point, and I don’t know how yet, he became a well established purveyor to a royal court and I think this to be that of German Emperor Wilhelm I(Emperor H.M.?), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_I,_German_Emperor . He could have been supplier to Wilhelm II, who had some sort of palsy. Some info notes him as being a well established supplier/purveyor to the Kaiser. Bock is noted to have been Kaiserlich und Königliche Hoflieferanten of Berlin and I’d like to see a trade label if anyone has one. He is usually listed with an address as Otto Bock, Konigl. Hoflieferant, Berlin W. 8, Kroenstrasse 7, 8 or 9. He may also have been an engineer and around the time he developed the 9.3X62(circa 1905) that Jani mentions and Bock was active in exhibits and the like such as the 1904 Saint Louis(U.S. of A.) International Exhibition where he may have received a gold medal, http://books.google.com/books?id=s41eqTq...lin&f=false , which also is connected to the Forestry industry. He was listed in catalogues as a firearms supplier as well as stuffed animals??( jagdwaffen, ausgestopfte präparate). Here, http://www.springerlink.com/content/k84k4423373l77g7/ , an article notes he was a Geweibhändler??(antler supplier??) . I can’t say if this is the gunmaker Otto Bock or not. Someone fluent in German, Jani maybe, is going to have to make sense of it. He may have been close friends with Ludwig Schiwy and may have used Recknagel as a component source. Early on, he may have built a few longarms like the Mauser O/U 8mm(or other cartridge) over 16 bore. I’ve seen some info suggesting that he made Mauser rifles for Zastava, but I’d like to see more info on it. He may have sourced Ludwig Loewe or DWM for Mauser actions, but for now I would say he sourced the craftsmen in Suhl when it when it was economical. It may have been that he was more of a designer/firearms merchant/supplier than a gunmaker but he is listed as a master gunsmith. He is sort of a mystery like some of the other German makers like W. Foerster and Heinrich Scherping. And his company may have been liquidated in 1933 or 1934?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi and thanks so much for the info. Very enlightening. I appreciate the help.

Just a quick word or so on what Raimey stated about the last Kaiser (Wilhelm II). He did have his left arm damaged at birth that left this arm useless for his entire life. He did have however a very powerful right arm because of this. His handshake was almost bone crushing according to many who were on the receiving end. He like to play tricks on some people by turning his rings around and shaking their hands, thus causing some great pain.

He was a very avid hunter, both big game and birds. He could and did shoot a shotgun one handed with ease. So perhaps Bock very well could have provided guns to Wilhelm II, I know that Purdey did.

Again, thanks for the info.

So...........what's your opinion on this Bock:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=138274863

All the best!

Greg

Raimey,
Yes it certainly seems that our Otto was also a supplier of antlers and such - not a strange activity for a Berlin gun shop in those times.

Greg,
I am not sure about the price but I surely like the looks of this hammer gun. Be sure to find out exactly about bore condition before placing a bid.

With kind regards,
Jani

Greg:

He could have easily been a supplier to Kaiser W. II and have been born in the latter part of the 19th century but I haven't seen any examples that were altered for Kaiser W. II's use. They could be out there but I just haven't seen them. Now he was just a purveyor/supplier to the Emperor & King and he rode that advertising wave to peddle arms to the general public. He may have just been the antler supplier to the Royal Court???? I haven't found where he was top gun retailer/gunmaker to the Emperor & King, just supplier. Say that the was a purveyor to thte court in 1905, then using the age of 24 years for his master brief and a couple years to get the appointment, then he would have been born in the 1870s, but for now I think earlier. I don't know when the appointments to the Royal court dwindled, but I would guess most were in the 19th century.

On the gun, I would want to see the proof marks. This looks to be a sourced longarm and I don't think Otto Bock touched it except for being a supplier. I doubt it was made in Berlin. How would it sit with you if it was a Sauer, or Belgian, with his name roll stamped?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jani:

Here's a 1903 ref., info in sort of the raw state as I haven't taken the time to decipher or vet it: http://books.google.com/books?id=h_IWAAA...lin&f=false . Would you pleasure us with a translation??

Kind Regards,

Hi guys and thanks!! I find these kinds of discussions most interesting. While I have no interest in the gun I posted above, it did catch my eye as a very clean hammer gun.

I really enjoy the discussions on this board, so much knowledge out there and it just increases my knowledge on double guns. That's why I'm ask about a certain maker or gun. This post in a case in point. I've learned a lot and I must say thanks again Jani and Raimey!!

All the best!

Greg

Raimey, it says No preview available, and I cannot see any text to translate. But in any case Otto was a supplier of antlers, as you said before. - Jani

Jani:

Here's the text and it gives an account of in April 20 or 30 years ago(starting at 1903?) that the brother of the author(with or without the author) while climbing ran into eagle raiser, purveyor Otto Bock at an eagle's nest or something of the like:
(page 91)
"91

50 Jahren oftmals den Horst ausnehmen lassen. Greve fand den Horst zweimal, im Jahre 1875 und 1876, im letzten Jahre am 22, April, als die Jungen eben ausgekrochen waren. Später sind die Jungen ausgenommen und seit der Zeit hat der Adler nicht mehr genistet.

Herr Hoflieferant Otto Bock in berlin, welcher früher in Mecklenburg-Strelitz sammelte, hat den Seeadler daselbst auch brütend gefunden und schreibt mir darüber wie folgt: “Ende März oder Anfang April (das Jarh ist nicht angegeben, es mag aber wohl 25 bis 30 Jahre zurückliegen) stiessen mein Bruder und ich und der in Mecklenburg bekannte Steiger Papenzin beim Suchen nach Rabenhorsten ganz zufällig auf einen Seeadlerhorst, der auch besetzt war."


And here's the site again: http://books.google.com/books?id=h_IWAAA...lin&f=false

I forgot to note there was a J.F. Bock of Berlin that supplied helmets to one of the war efforts. And Gebhard Bock post WWI penned Cuno Buchel regarding his target arm complying with the Olympic target event. The Luna Kleinkaliberbuchse was the result of Bock request and Buchel's design.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Anyone want to guess if Otto was Carl Bock's brother? -

"Carl Alfred Bock was born in 1849 in Copenhagen, the son of a well-to-do merchant family. In 1875 he decided to pursue a career in natural history. In early August 1878, on his first collecting trip for the Zoological Society in London, he found himself on board a Dutch steamer bound from Batavia for Padang, together with 700 European mercenaries hired to fight in the Aceh War and a number of convicts.

He collected specimens at Paio; at Ayer Angat, near Muara Labu, and at Lolo and Ayer Mancur. On his return to Batavia he was commissioned to explore the interior of southeastern Borneo. The author discusses the travels and publications of Carl Bock, in particular those about Borneo and the Dayak. In 1881 he went on a journey into northern Siam and the semi-autonomous Lao states. The article includes a bibliography bibliography. The listing of books is of ancient origin. Lists of clay tablets have been found at Nineveh and elsewhere; the library at Alexandria had subject lists of its books. of works by Carl Bock and reviews of Bock's works (Drs. Youetta M. de Jager). "

from http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Carl+Bock+...,...-a093792631

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Greg:

You may be correct and either he was supplier to both Kaisers or two separate Kaisers?

A listing notes Otto Bock as:

"Waffenhandlungen
Otto Bock, Hoflieferant des Kaisers, Kronestrasse 9 Berlin"

Which looks to be arms or hunting arms handler/supplier or negotiator to Kaisers(plural??).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey, very interesting again! As to the Kaisers, as you may know were only three:

Wilhelm I, 1871 to 1888

Fredrich III, 1888

Wilhelm II, 1888 to 1918

If Bock did supply to the Kaisers, F. III who only reigned for 99 days in very ill health (cancer of the throat)would more than likely not have used Bock as a supplier (as Crown Prince, he may have). That would leave the two Wilhelm's. I guess now it comes down to what years he was a supplier. Anything after 1888 woud mean W.II

Again, a most interesting thread!!!

All the best!

Greg

des Kaisers = of the Kaiser, to the Kaiser (singular)

-Jani

Thanks Jani for the correction on the translation. Many of the sources of info note that Otto Bock was a "well established supplier". I wish someone would have elaborated on just how he was so established and when.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Nice information.

The hammer gun may have had an extensive metal refinish. The fit of the forend iron to the knuckle looks rather iffy to me.

best,

C.

[img][/img]

So indeed it is a Belgian sourced double. I emailed the seller who kindly sent me the pic. I seriously doubt if Otto Bock made very many of his examples and as a supplier sourced all of them. But I am always up to considering additional info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey, thanks for the pic of the flats. Interesting that when I e-mailed the seller and asked for a pic of the flats, he said that the pics in the auction is what he had. Needless to say, I didn't get any pics.

As you stated and as all can see it is a Bel. gun. At least this part of the puzzle is complete.

Thanks again!!

Greg

Thanks Greg. I can't say on the seller. I asked and he supplied. But the proofmarks do give insight into the sourcing of Otto Bock and I think the same applies to all other suppliers/makers in Berlin. And it validates the claim that for the most part all suppliers/firearms merchants sourced the centers of gunmaking, i.e. Suhl/Zella-Mehlis & Liege with a smaller emphasis on Vienna & Weipert, where there was a high concentration of the most talented craftsmen on the continent, if not the world(may have some opposition here). Just a fact of economics. After the Germans, and other Europeans, got over the urge to be exactly like the Brits in the 1870s & 1880s, home or in country sourcing became the norm which ran parallel to the advent of mechanization.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The gun was proofed between 1910-1924. You can count out 1914-1918 as Belgium was occupied by the Germnans. Any gun production was going towards German military arms.

Pete

Thanks to the efforts of Mike Ford of Alabama, author of "Adventures with the 9.3X72R" a 3 part series currently in the GGCA publication Waidmannsheil, which in my mind is an attempt to reconcile the differences in pre-WWII 9.3X72R cartridge variations and current 9.3X72R loadings, provided me with this link, http://waffen-bock.de/ , to Carl Bock which notes that Bock began in 1897. I can't find any direct relationship to Hoflieferant Otto Bock and as Mike pointed out the shop looks to be that of a firearms merchant/repair facility/scope mounting. I have seen barrel stamps with the Carl Bock name and address

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The following pics are of a Zella-Mehlis(either Zella Saint Blasii or Mehlis but before union) sourced Otto Bock owned by Dave Von Gunten, friend of Mr. Gerald Mouer, who I'm sure will provide additional info on the 2 barrel set??

[img][/img]

[img][/img]





Passed thru Z-M proofhouse in 8/1913; choked left Krupp tube.



Passed thru Z-M proofhouse in 8/1912; choked left Krupp tube.

What's the name on the scope? Answer: Ernst Steigleder Berlin & Suhl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse