If a case colored reciever (on an Ithaca 4E in particular) has been blued can the bluing be removed and the case colors restored?

More related questions:

1) After the case colors are back on should I expect the engraving to be severely degraded

2) How are case colors put on?

3) How is bluing removed from engraved receivers? (I have read that Heinz Ketchup is wicked on blued barrels!)

4) What makes the case colors go away? Routine cleaning? Exposure to air? Combination of both?

If someone polished the receiver then there is a good chance some of the engraving is not "sharp"
1&2)In order to have the gun re-cased means having the receiver annealed to take the case-hardening out, then it might have to be re-engraved and then re-case hardened/case colored. If not done right receiver could warp.
3/ not sure
4) mainly handling, and what you said.

Bushmaster,

To answer #3... the annealing( if properly done) will remove the bluing and leave you with a soft bright surface

CJ

Case color is not "put on". It is a by product of case hardening steel. The parts are packed in charcoal and heated, then quenched. The trick is knowing the proper heat and time. There is always the danger that in the process, the metal can warp. There are several firms that are very good at doing this restoration. They can prep the metal for you.

Pete

"Case color is not "put on". It is a by product of case hardening steel. The parts are packed in charcoal and heated, then quenched. The trick is knowing the proper heat and time. There is always the danger that in the process, the metal can warp. There are several firms that are very good at doing this restoration. They can prep the metal for you."

Will the "preping" remove the engraving?

During regular factory engraving/hardening, which comes first?

I would call John Gillette at Classic Arms (708-367-1620) and discuss the process. If the receiver is/was polished it may need to be chased to make the engraving sharp. Mr. Ken Hurst should be along and he is an expert in the engraving and case hardening operation.

Jim

This Husqvarna was done by John Gillette:









The preparation consists of cleaning the metal. A 4E should be left to a professional. As CJO has stated, the case tempering will remove the blue. Call John and discuss it all with him.

Pete

During regular factory engraving/hardening, which comes first?

Due to the nature of engraving it must be done before case coloring.
Jim

When I got this Marlin 32-40 it was a high gloss blue..I then annealed and re-cased it after about two days of hand work and rust blued the barrel and mag tube, etc.(which is the way this gun left the factory in 1906).....

To answer your question, yes, it can be re-cased..............your engraving should be o.k. if not already damaged by the polishing efforts of whoever blued your gun........

As already mentioned, Ken Hurst could "freshen" your engraving, but best to call him he is the engraving "expert"......he includes his phone number with his signature line on this site..........

Best Regards,

looks like pa24 is shillin for ol ken again...are there not forum rules against this unprofessional conduct?

Ed, I don't see anything in Doug's (PA24) post "unprofessional".

I hope your not the same one that uses a torch for his case colors, as that is unprofessional.

For one of the best descriptions of what is going on:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/doublegunjournal_v7i4_9.htm

This is an article originally published in the Double Gun Journal by Oscar Gaddy. He has SEM images of the surface which results in the colors. Traditionally, after the surface is re cased, it is coated with a light film of lacquer to protect it.

Pete

Why would anyone have to "shill" for Ken Hurst? The membership here is well aware of his expert engraving skills.
Jim

Bushmaster, I happen to be restoring a 4e currently below are pics of before polished and after.







Hope this helps

Mark

Not hardly. I mean there are "not hardly any rules against shillin for ol ken". Is that a clear enough reply? I think Dave allows us to recommend and crucify anyone in the business if we stick to facts and are polite about it. So far, everyone has been polite and I am drooling about the possibility of getting my Model 51 Husky to look like the one in the pictures.

Pete, can we hear more about your Husky Model 51 project? Did anyone freshen up the wood while John was doing the case color? Did John do all the disassembling and prep work or did you send him the disassembled gun?

Bill,

I did the wood on that one. It was not hard. I gave the gun to John. While he did his magic on the metal, I had time to clean up the stock. I did not rechecker, simply clean it up and refinish it. John did all the metal work.





This is another M51 that is still in progress. I am waiting for Dan May to call and tell me the stock work is done. It is now a 45-70 double rifle.











Pete

Pete thats COOOOOOOL! Who did the Barrel work? Is that group with both barrels? Tell us more!

Thanks Mark.

I do not want to hi-jack the thread. The work was done by a member here, RD Show. The group is 4 shots, 2 from each barrel. No pretense on my part, it is a boar / deer rifle, nothing more.



Pete

Burned by the torch man. If you want to see how not to color a gun do a search on the above snide remarker.

Here is the blued 4E I was thinking about.

I think I will pass based on what I heard.

Thank you to the Forum!

Lou

Given the sharpness of the engraving, the flatness of the flats and the sharpness of the corners I would think it possible that the blue finish may have been ordered. Of course this assumes that the gun in question has not been previously restored( and very well, I might add ).

Since Ken is a member of either the Fire Arms Engravers Guild or the American Custom Gunmakers Guild, maybe both, I can see no lapse in professional ethics. Both are sponsers of this board. Additionaly, Ken has volunteered many hours of his work to support projects sponsered by members of this board. Every day, someone will ask for a recommendation to aid in the selection of a gunsmith, stocker, engraver or other craftsman. Recommendations are made and there is no no critisism from Dave. I think the recommender is on pretty safe ground in recommending Mr. Hurst.

If the price is right on that 4E, buy it. Nicer than most, even with the bluing.

Just as a point of reference; Ken is not a member of either the Firearms Engravers Guild of America nor the American Custom Gunmakers Guild.

Perhaps not the right time and place, but this has niggled for a while: did not the good Dr Gaddy himself suggest in his two part article in DGJ on colour case hardening that a torch could be an appropriate way to enhance or otherwise touch up colours?
RG

With the admittedly dangerous note that I've never re-colored a gun, I am still convinced that the guys doing it - who 'polish' the receiver and dull the engraving - are doing it all wrong.

Dr. Gaddy told me, and then demonstrated on one of my guns, that one did NOT have to remove the blue [oxide] prior to recasecoloring. The temperatures of the recascoloring process automatically remove the blue.

No pa24 is voicing his opinion about the ability of an artisan.
Ken is a good guy. Barry Lee is also. Both lurk around this board just like CJO and myself.Because we live, breath and probably will die doing SxS's.

Thanks for the verbal support guys ---- much appreciated. Mr. Steve, in regards to being a member of FEGA, wellll, I am a charter member and still pay my dues & get the mag. However, I have never applied for profeshional or master status/rating. The reason you might ask ? Well, not having a pro/master rating never seemed to make much difference in the steady flow of works that keeps showing up and I've been scratching guns for 51 years. You probably didn't see my name as you most likely looked for it in the pro. ratings --- I'm listed with those in the lower catagory.

I believe the questions asked re. color casing have been more than asked --- doesn't seem to be anything I could add that hasn't already been correctly stated.

I would not pass on that Ithaca 4E single based on the receiver finish. I have no idea what the asking price is or the wood condition, but it looks like a great gun from the pictures posted. If you're going to pass on the 4E, where can the rest of us go to purchase it?

Here is a picture of an Ithaca that Oscar did,..he sent me the picture as reference, I for one believe that his work was impeccable, and I don't know too many people who think otherwise.




CJ

And as long as I'm shillin for Dr. Gaddy I might as well shill for myself some...

Here is one of my last jobs, a little Churchill self opener re-case, re-blue.

CJ

Claudio, that's quite the fancy back. Is it yours or is it from the factory? I've never seen one quite that pronounced.

CJ, very nice indeed. I don't blame you for "patting yourself on the back", very nicely done. Love a scalloped boxlock almost as much as a side lock.

I am only postng this because someone asked. It is not my auction and I am not bidding.
If you buy it you should give the Forum the customary $10.00 on the honor system.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=137558217

Lou

A fairly new factory gun Bill,...was put away wet

CJ

CJO,

I'd say your work is impeccable as well!