Good evening - new member here from the UK so please go easy!

I would value the forums view on a lovely E.M.Reilly I have recently purchased at the CLA Game Fair in the UK where I live. I got the gun in question from the Kelbrook Shooting School/Lodge who in turn had bought the gun at the Dec 13'07 Holts main auction. I was wisely counselled by Small Bore (Diggory) on the day so did not purchase in isolation.

The gun in question was obtained after a year of researching & looking and is a 12 bore push-forward underlever snap action hammergun, serial number 17393. It has 30" Nitro reproved bold Damascus barrels (in excellent condition and with c .025 remaining in both barrels), is engraved on the rib "E.M.Reilly, New Oxford Street, London and 2 Rue Scribe, Paris" with 2 3/4 chambers, bored true cylinder in both (reproofed 2007). The action incorporates the Purdey 1863 patent doube-bite locking bolt (patent 1104 of 2nd May 1863, use number 948.

It has a sprung push-forward underlever, carved percussion fences, round bar, rebounding sidelocks with carved faceted hammers, and is nicely engraved with fine acanthus scrolls and ropework borders. Fortunately, it also retains good traces of original colour hardening and finish, and the 14" (well figured) stock including horn butt plate is in excellent condition (original stock, rechequered well). Weight is 7lbs 4oz, and came with a two tired leather and wood case with removable oak tray and some original accessories. The case lid has a brass escutcheon inscribed 'A. HOLFORD GOWER. MORDEN HOLT. DATCHET" and has several old rail travel labels still visible.

My main queries are now as follows...

- the guns manufacture date/history if possible?
- any ideas on what type of Damascus barrel is shown (sorry for poor pics)?
- whether anyone has any ideas as to the original owner? All I can find is an Arthur Holford Gower who married in Cornwall, England in 1887.

Really looking forward to owning and using the Reilly in seasons to come. Also interested to hear whether others have any Reillys out there..
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Beautiful gun CBL...outstanding......I can see why you are excited......there are a few guys on here who go way out in the research area and I am sure they will respond shortly....

Enjoy that handsome shotgun.....

Best,

Beautiful gun.....if it only had choke.

That is Two Iron Damas Crolle', English Two Stripe, or 'Oxford.' A similar pattern William Powell & Son 12b Bar-in-Wood hammergun sold in 1870



I would expect Three Iron or Laminated Steel on a gun of that quality in that era. More information here http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18059733 and
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20258609

I hope I can find a picture of a similar gun I just consigned to Greg Martin. #17476, Purdey thumb push opener, also with the London and Paris addresses. The dual cities markings seem to only appear on his earliest guns; some later guns carry two street numbers on New Oxford, London. Nigel Brown lists a numberr of his addresses, but not this dual cities marking. I think it is circa 1860 based on looking at a number of his guns.

Your gun, as is true of many of his products, has far more flamboyant wood than was utilized by his contemporary gun makers. I think it is one of the features which make Reilly guns attractive.

A production date could be estimated by the original proof markings.

The Purdey double underbite is a clue. From the pictures you posted I would guess it was built in the mid to late 1860's.

That was my thinking as well Joe - the gun also has pretty large hammers/strikers which, along with the wedge foreend, would give me a feeling 1865. Either way, it is still incredible to think this could have been made over a bench in candlelight.

Many thanks for the positive comments and input on here gentlemen - very much appreciated. As regards choke, although I would have liked a little in one barrel, I can live with Cylinder for most of the shooting I do here in the UK. I intend to use the Reilly on a mix of UK "rough" shooting and driven days, and unless I am going on a shoot with really high birds, cylinder should be fine with the right cartridge. It should have its first formal airing on a shoot with Diggory/Small Bore in October.

Drew - apologies for my ignorance of Damascus, but is two-stripe considered "better" or "worse" than three-stripe/laminated barrels (crude comparative terms I know - either in terms of strength or perceived quality? Keen to learn more.

I think they were helped by Aliens.

The Birmingham Proof House Trial of 1891 showed that well made Two Iron/Stripe is just a strong as Three Iron.
Lots more on Damascus Quality here http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_22ddqshmdq
Bottom line: Pattern welded barrel quality is best judged by the quality of the gun to which they are attached

EDWARD MICHAEL REILLY (b.1816, son of J.C. Reilly q.v.) , gunmaker, worked with father 1841; air gun maker 502 Oxford Street, 1848-1860; EDWARM M. REILLY & CO., s.a. 1861-1869; 502 and 315 Oxford Street,1870-1874; 502 Oxford Street only 1875-1882; 10 New Oxford Street 1883-1898; succeeded to business of REILLY & CO., q.v. 1899; 277 Oxford Street (315 renumbered 1881), t.a. E.M. REILLY CO., 1901-1902.........British Gunmakers, Nigel Brown Volume One - London. Your beautiful cased Reilly brought 2,800 GBP exclusive of Buyer's Premium at Holt's December, 1977 Main Sale. You gun was made between 1883-1898 as he was at the New Oxford Street address during those years.

Best Regards, George

Could those be replacement barrels after the move to New Oxford St.?

Many thanks George - impressive information mining and you are correct about the Holts auction price in 2007 as I purchased it from the chap who was the successful bidder that day.

I also spent some time on the Internet Gun Club and found the attached history (I hope John does not mind me posting this as I will remove if requested) -

"In 1859 J C Reilly became Reilly & Co and moved to 315 Oxford Street (later named "Armoury House"), Joseph Manton's old premises and next door to James Purdey. E M Reilly stayed at 502 New Oxford Street. In 1860 Edward M Reilly became Edward M Reilly & Co.

From 1870 to 1874 E M Reilly & Co traded from both 502 New Oxford Street and 315 Oxford Street, and in 1869 Edward started trading as E M Reilly et Cie at 2 Rue Scribe, Paris; reportedly, this shop closed in 1872.

From 1875 to 1882 E M Reilly traded only from 502 Oxford Street leaving J C Reilly on his own at 315 Oxford Street. In 1881 315 Oxford Street was re-numbered 277 Oxford Street (James Purdey ocupied 314-315 Oxford Street which, possibly because of sub-division and re-arrangement of the shopfronts/building, he called 314 1/2, it became 287-289).

The re-numbering of Oxford Street included No. 502 New Oxford Street which was re-numbered to 16 New Oxford Street.

At some time between 1884 and 1898 E M Reilly opened another shop in Paris, this time at 29 Rue du Faubourg, St Honore. When it closed is not known. In 1898, on the death of his father, Edward inherited his father's business and closed at 16 New Oxford Street."

This would tend to imply that as the address on the rib was the "Rue Scribe" location, the gun was dated pre-1872 when that shop closed out?

All very fascinating - just frustrating that Reilly records apparently are no longer in existence!

As the gun has rebounding locks (ie post 1868) and you have the address info which seems to put it between 1870-1872 I think you have the date of manufacture nailed.Lack of choke also puts it pre-1875.My first impression on seeing the pics suggested an early 1870's gun. Congratulations on a very fine gun. I have a somewhat later hammer pigeon gun by Reilly that is a personal favourite.
Terry

Welcome from another Englishman on the forum. It might be worth tracing something on the inscription and armorial engraving on the gold oval. The College of Arms in London should be able to tell you who has the right to bear those arms. Sorry I couldn't quite make out the Latin inscription but my Latin is a bit rusty anyway. Good luck with your excellent purchase and have fun using it. Lagopus.....

That's a Grand Gun man.....Lovely wood too.
The engraving on the Hammers must have been a *itch!
Shoot her in good health....nice to have the 07 Re Proof.
Very nice.
Have seen a few Riley H'less SLE's , but only on the Intranet
...all looked very tidy indeed.
Good luck to you both.
Franc.
Iwas Born & raised in Somerset, England....a little north, but not that far, all things concidered(That's the Somerset spelling , hence the SIC Con'cider'ed) , from Cornwall...ever eat a Cornish Pastey..or Tiddy Oggie as sometimes called..anyone?

CBL 1, I don't know if you are interested, but I just came across an original EM Reilly oak and leather case that I have had in the garage for 20 years and totally forgotten about. Structurally, it is all there, including all the cast brass hardware and inner dividers and it has 2 EM Reilly labels, an older one with a newer one that was laid over the old one. I am not home at the moment, so I don't know the addresses of the labels. That being said, it would need total restoration as all the leather is completely shot. If you are interested, I would sell it for $400.00 plus shipping to the UK from California.
If you have an interest, let me know and I will take some photos when I get home on Sunday.
Very nice gun,
Gordon

Thank you for the excellent and useful feedback chaps - enormously appreciated and I have already learnt a lot from this thread. I am trying to purchase a Reilly 10 bore (have been for 2 yrs now) so will seek to post up those pics in due course.

Gordon - appreciate the offer but the gun actually came with an original, two-tier Reilly case with original label so I am sorted out presently. Where are you in Nor-Cal by chance as I lived in San Francisco/Palo Alto for 6 yrs - absolutely loved it and miss it greatly.

I am in Ferndale, a little town on the coast, about 250 miles above San Francisco. In the Eel river valley, 4 miles from the ocean and Redwoods.

CBL,
Could you post the wording of the motto beneath the crest? Next week I will be at my other place and have a good book on crests and mottos there and can check what families use it.
Beautiful gun BTW.
Rs
K.

Yes! Tiddie Oggies, crescent shaped pastry cases; meal ready to eat. They evolved from the Cornish tinminers' lunches, lowered down the shaft in a bucket. Although the original version had a savoury half (mince meat, veg, gravy) and a sweet half (stewed apple, whatever), they now seem to be entirely savoury. I had my last one way back, stormbound in Mousehole, during a boat delivery trip. Brings back memories of the best bath I ever had, in the Mission to Seamen, after a few days of being pounded trying to get past the Lizard!
Rs
K.

Cornish pasties! They should be done under the trades description act! Actually the idea came from my part of the world in Derbyshire when the Derbyshire lead miners went to Cornwall to show them how to mine properly. They took the idea with them. A proper Pasty that 'Owd ay in 'O's snap tin' (translation; that one would have in ones sandwich receptacle) would be one half meat and potato and one half jam (jello in America). The crust would be to hold it by and then thrown for the rats as the fingers would be contaminated with lead dust and poisonous. Even 'Cornish Ware' pottery is actually made in Derbyshire! Nice part of the world though and where I will be going to visit next month; that's if they will have me now.

Sorry to get off topic. Fantastic gun by the way. Lagopus.....

Many thanks Kerryman for the offer and kind comments regarding the gun.

I think the inscription reads something close to "Secundis Dubis Squerectus" and shows a stags head being held aloft by two arms. I have enquired at the College of Arms and am awaiting thoughts (and possible research cost!) on the crest. Any input would be enormously appreciated as I am keen to learn more where possible.

Hi CBL,
Material for some interesting detective work; unfortunately I have not found a complete answer.

Your gun’s oval has a crest and a motto. The crest is one part of a family’s grant of arms; a motto often but not always forms part of that grant. If both are genuine, their combination should make it possible to identify a family.

To put that task in some perspective, books such as Burke’s Peerage, Landed Gentry, etc., are full of errors and it is generally accepted that more than half the “arms” submitted are bogus / not registered with the proper authorities in England, Scotland or Ireland.

The Motto on your gun is a line taken from the Odes of Horace ‘Secundis dubiisque rectus’ which is translated either ‘Upright both in prosperity and in perils’ or ‘Firm in every fortune’. That motto is used by some individuals in the families of Duncan (Camperdown and Haldane-Duncan), Cleveland and Lippincott.

The Crest, showing a Stags/Harts head cabossed i.e. the head is shown full-faced, without any neck showing, is used by members of several families, among them the Hart, Gernon, Gordon, Thomson, Duff and Calder/Cawdor families. In heraldry antlers represent strength and fortitude. None of my reference books show those names associated with the motto supplied.

My guess is that the Duncan/Camperdown connection could be ruled out as their crests primarily have a naval theme (from the Battle of Camperdown). See their crests here http://www.clan-duncan.co.uk/duncan-crest-badge.html

The usual crest for Cleveland is a ‘A demi old man proper, habited azure’, (the torso of a man dressed in blue) and only one branch of that family uses the motto inscribed on your gun.
Lippincott is a Devonshire name; I cannot associate the crest with them either.

As far as I can see, there is no link between the crest & motto and the A. Holford Gower name on the guncase. That owner could be :
13 OCTOBER 1887, Thursday HOLFORD-GOWER - SHILSON At Christ Church, Plymouth, October 10, by the Rev. W.E. Roo[me?], M.A., Arthur Holford-Gower, Esq., of Leicester Lodge, West Brighton, Sussex, to Adelaide Dinham, only daughter of the late Capt. William Dinham Shelson, of Trevarrick, St. Austell, and granddaughter of the late William Shilson, Esq., of St. Austell and Tremough, Cornwall.

Unless the College of Arms has a Grant of Arms to an individual, containing both the crest and motto on your gun, it is unlikely that the exact owner could be established through heraldry. Best bet is a hope that Holt’s or previous owner have a record.
Regards
K.

Superb response Kerryman and thanks for the input which is fascinating. I have contacted the College of Arms who have quoted £60 for further research so I may give that some more consideration.

As regards the wedding reference, I did indeed note that reference in Google a couple of weeks back, but that is the only thing I have been able to dig up to date. Sussex is not a million miles away from Datchet (near Windsor) so it is not unreasonable to hope that perhaps these are the same gentleman.

Either way, I am now looking forward to owning, cherishing and using the gun in the seasons to come, with a couple of days already scheduled on Small Bore's driven shoot this winter

Pasties are common fare here, probably arrived with the Cornish miners in the mid 19th century who made a specialty out of shaft mining on the goldfields.
The gold they dug up bought a lot of very fine guns to the district.
There - back on topic!
RG

Thanks CBL.
Glad to be of use.
If you want to do more Internet research, my shot at the heraldic description of the oval is two arms in armour embowed, grasping a stag's head cabossed, attired with twelve tines, with a motto ‘Secundis dubiisque rectus’ below. (Also try caboshed for cabossed)

Were it me, I’d be strongly tempted to try the College of Arms. After all, for 60 quid it means missing just a brace of Dig’s birds!
Enjoy that lovely gun!
K.