Would appreciate comments on the re-jointing work done by Ken Eversull. I have a Diamond grade Lindner Daly that needs a little TLC in that area. I know it's expensive but I'm looking for the highest quality work.

Joe, I believe that Ken and his method (whatever it exactly is) is the best in the business. He is not cheap, but he does offer near perfection. He did a full restoration on a Greener for me that has to be seen to be believed. It was far enough off the face to have served as a garden gate. He is also not the quickest, but you will enjoy talking to him, and he is a passionate about our sport.

He worked on a Grant sidelever SLE I owned and is now working on my HJ Hussey. He's seriously good.

I thought my Lindner was off face, but it turned out to be a worn locking bolt. I had to take the action completely apart - the locking bolt is the last thing to fall out. I then welded up and dressed down the worn part of the locking bolt that engages the underbite on the barrels. It was a long job, but proved to be very interesting - the inside of a Lindner is a real treat to behold!

Also - I determined that the gun was not "off-face" by pulling up on the barrels (as if closing it after it was closed) then trying to move them side to side. I used my stocking vise to do this, but it can be done in your hands. If you cannot move the barrels side to side after pulling up on them you have a locking lug issue. If they still move after pulling up it is a hinge pin / barrel hook problem.

Replace the hinge pin - that's how you put a gun back on the face, especially a top-quality gun.

Unless the gun has a fixed hinge pin (some do), every other solution is the wrong way to fix the problem, regardless of what the advertising copy says.

OWD

OWD,
I must respectfully disagree. Del Whitman had to microweld and fit both the hook and locking bolt to properly put an old German double back on face. Sometimes you can get away with repairing just the hook but not always.
Phil

There is more than one way to skin a cat,....sometimes changing a hinge pin is too drastic a measure, especially when the gap is slight or when one has to deal with re-engraving something that was done by an old master,...too many new tools and techniques can now be used to properly repair the old doubles,..things that one would have never thought possible 50 years ago can now be done to achieve perfection ,...even some of the purists have adopted them, they just won't tell you about it.
Blood letting and the pony express had their time,...now we have modern medicine and cell phones, you don't still communicate by snail mail,.... do you?

CJ

Of the half dozen off face that I have had, only one was the Pin. The others were the locking bolts or lugs. I had all tig welded except the pin situation which was corrected with Brownells shim .002 stock

I respectfully disagree. As I understand it, working on the hook does not repair any wear that may have happened to the pin.

You have to address the pin and the hook to achieve a square fit all around.

You can shim or weld up the hook, but you'll never achieve the perfect fit that is one of the things that makes a fine double so fine.

OWD

I agree,...you must address the issue and repair the part that requires it,.....but you can also repair a hinge pin without outright replacing it

CJ

OK. But wouldn't it be easier to replace the pin?

It sounds like more work for a repair that will not be as well done.

And how much money are you going to save?

I'm not going to skimp just to save $500 - especially not on a real nice double.

OWD

No, replacing the pin is not as easy as it sounds, there's alot more involved than just popping the old pin out and pushing a new one in. Fitting, finishing, engraving, etc. And have you ever seen any of the work done by Mr. Eversull? I doubt you could even tell that there was any work done at all. His work is as good as it gets.
The others who posted earlier made a good point...read carefully.....most of the time that a double is loose, its nothing to do with the pin, rather the locking bolt or the hook.


Dustin

You make the repair that is called for, based on the value of the gun to you. Unless you make the choice for non-financial concerns.
I wouldn't restock a fencepost clunker, and I wouldn't glue a shim into a Purdey.

Yes, I know what it takes to replace a pin. I'm 100% aware of what's involved - from a Parker to a Boss.

But pulling out a pin and welding it up to make it like new sounds like a lot more work to me. And it sounds like it will never be as good as a new, properly fitted pin.

And as I understand it, a gun that is "off the face" has to fixed by addressing the pin/hook, bbl/breachface relationship.

I may be mistaken, but I think if you're messing with the bolt, the gun is "loose on the action." I don't see how you can address it and change pin/hook, bbl/breachface relationship.

Clapper - I agree with you 100%. But I think it's a mistake to think a shim/welding job is as good, or will last as long, as a properly replaced pin.

Thanks

OWD

Metallurgically, it is probably better. The filler rod /base metal junction is very likely a better alloy than the original part that wore. I can really nerd out for you if you want.
Ultimately, what power loop do you wish to use as the final arbiter? It is the last file stroke that makes a best gun.
I have not had good luck with matching engraving. There just aren't that many people that can imitate Van Gogh, or DaVinci's brush stroke. I look at the finished product, not just clearances.
Nothing personal toward resident engravers. But I save engraving at almost all cost.

Clapper/Zapper-

My problem isn't with adding metal, it's adding it in a way that achieves a square fit with the hook. Welding up a pin so that it's as round as a new one sounds like a lot of work.

Is it?

Why not replace the original pin with one made out of a better grade of metal? Wouldn't that be easier, and better, overall?

The engraving issue is case by case. Most Holland-style sidelocks have endcaps covering the hinge pins. Replacing the pin does not affect the covers at all.

On a Boss or Purdey, the engraving on the pin is usually pretty minimal and easy to replace.

OWD

OWD is totally correct in this matter. Best is best. As an aside, although I've never done it, I've wondered at the possibility of taking about .020" off the pin, reducing it's diameter .040" and then fitting a hard steel sleeve over the pin. The machining work would be less tricky. Making a new pin, if you want perfection, is very time consuming. You want the threads to be as tight as possible, likewise the cap and while the old pin is a guide, chances are good that it wasn't perfectly fitted to begin with. You want your new one to be better. Lastly you have to drill and tap for the screw that goes in from the knuckle and this is a blind hole. If it's an older Brit gun all the threads will be Whitworth, another "pita".

If I remember correctly, Miller (2-piper) refits pins with 100% contact, at perfect perpendicularity, just because he wants to. In one of those discussions, it was pointed out that neither the pin, or the hook maintains 360 degrees of bearing, and so, perfect cylindricity isn't functionally necessary. The joint between hook and pin is no longer concentric when one or other is worn. They both will need attention if you change the pin. They still won't match. The joint tends to wear in an elongated fashion, because we fire right barrel first, and the joint twists.
I have never seen a rule that said material could only be removed, never added. I believe in almost all cases, material can be added, and then the joint fitted, with less work than setting up to grind surfaces, and draw bore holes. In my view, the repair just needs to end up as invisible as I want.
With the limited use most of these guns see in their second incarnation, I don't think a head to head exhaustive test will ever occur.
They are meant to be used, and refreshing done. The American collector marketplace differs from the European in this regard.
The craftsmen that are devoted to these almost microscopic repairs are working to much finer tolerances than the originators.

The pin is case hardened the hook is not. Most of the ware happens to the hook. Done properly a built up hook repair can result in an undetectable repair with full contact between the barrels and the breach face.

It is not the only way and may not be proper in all cases but if the hook is worn it is less invasive and less expensive.

Oddly, I agree with the 2 professional gunsmiths, CJO and Mark. Done properly there is nothing wrong with tigging the hook. My preference is to build a new pin, but as others have pointed out, it is not always cost effective. I try to match the best repair to the guns value. Most Birmingham boxlocks do not warrant a new pin, a Win 21 or a better grade sidelock, sure. It really comes down to what the customer wishes to spend in the end, after all, they are the one paying the bill.
Steve

So if the pin is hardened and the hook has worn, the proper solution is to replace the part that didn't wear?

Correct me if I read this incorrectly.

Here's the reason I won't consider replacing the pin on the Lindner Daly. There's just too much risk of damaging the cap screws on this old gun and the engraving and patina just could never be duplicated.

For what it's worth the gun does not show evidence of having been shot enough for wear to have taken it off face. The action is rather light and my guess is some idiot in the past shot a few hot loads through it and stretched the action. Just my opinion. As far as the metal applied in a hook weld, this is a 1890 gun and just about any weld is going to have a better alloy than the steels that were availabe 120 years ago.

Would not rule out a good smith doing it right Joe....but I see your cause for concern. Very nice.

Replacement of the pin is for the factory to do in all cases. Less invasive measures are called for in all other cases where the building factory is not involved. As mentioned in other posts, the pin is usually not worn enough to replace, is ridiculously expensive to file and reengrave, and the new pin will not properly engage the surfaces of the hook. Many pins are not one piece and hardly anyone understands Model 21 or Parker pin construction, even if they claim to. My friend Joe Wood made the best case for not messing with the pin. In 99 out of 100 cases, even a talented smith will ruin the gun. The new pin will show up like a turd on a collard leaf.

Wow! I had no idea there were so many double gun repair experts! Ken Eversull really ought to check in here and find out how to do it. Better yet, he might well retire and farm out all his work to the experts. After all these years I'm sure his clients would like to finally get the job done right!
Best,
Steve

That's right SDH, the stuff you read in sporting mags isn't always correct.

OWD

So SDH, what's YOUR take/opinion?

Im not sure where I remember seeing this, but this issue reminds me of the topic that read something like "How to repair a broken locking bolt?" I believe a rather well known and respected double gunsmith made the comment of you have to know what youre dealing with and take that into consideration. Imho you just dont force the burden onto your customer of re-machining an entirely new bolt or hinge pin if the gun in hand simply isnt worth it. But you know what they say about opinions

I don't know how many loose doubles you have to have handled and made a decision on before you become knowledgeable, but there are certainly non-gunsmiths capable of doing so.
Informed consumers are good for the doubles market.

I am no repair expert, never professed to be. In fact, I hired Dennis Potter to rejoint my Fox, by welding and refitting the hook, a beautiful job.
I have great respect for Mr. Eversull's experience and expertice as do many, many knowlegeable folks in the gun trade, on both sides of the Atlantic. I invited Ken to be interviewed about his techniques but he declined.
And I've always done my best to help consumers understand the workings of quality gunsmithing.
Best,
Steve

Relatively few guns which are off the face need a new pin. Re-jointing is a straightforward job for a good gunsmith but is common to see it messed up by a less skilled man. We re-joint/re-grip a lot of English guns. Addressing the hook and/ or the locking bolts is generally what is required.

Is Mr Eversull the gent. who advertises 'spray welding ' the hook? Or I think he may call it invisible repair?
I would be interested to know if he is doing a repair differently to the methods already discussed on this thread.

My insight into this debate can be compared by saying I would be disappointed if a garage fitted new pistons in my engine if the problem was worn bores !!!

Well, there you go, Steve. Dennis Potter, a well qualified shotgun smith, does not subscribe to the "replace the pin" doctrine. Apparently, at least you two are on my side, even though you discount customer knowledge.

"There is more than one way to skin a cat,... ....you don't still communicate by snail mail,.... do you?"

I'm not a gunsmithing expert, but CJ's first comment above rings true to my learings in machine shops and toolrooms I've worked in, and my personal beliefs pertaining to most anything, especially something being manufactured or fixed. His last comment makes me wonder about some ways I'm becoming entrenched like my old predecessors.

nial - this would work if the pin threads are of sufficiently smaller diameter. Obviously, you have to be able to get the sleeve onto the pin. This, is, however, just a better shim; a shim put onto the pin. Now, if you refit the hook to a slightly oversize pin sleeve, you have a new, properly fitted joint. The only issue with sleeves is to refit to the non-shimmed side. Welding puts down a "permanent shim" that is then refitted. Remachining a welded-up pin should be no problem as reaming/miling/fiing should be no problem for a welded-up hook. A glued-in shim can be a as hard or soft as you wish and can be fitted as above. The above pin shim could also be a sheet shim glued onto the pin.

Many ways to skin that cat!! The issue is figure out what is amiss within the joint and what will make the most efficient combination of economical, aesthetic, mechanically sound, and durable repair to the joint. Differing craftsmen may get to the same final point using differing methods.

In that my name has been mentioned, I'll cautiously, throw out my thoughts. I generally don't find the pin to be worn, the hook is. Because the pin is generally harder than the hook. Manny pins are case hardened in place, so most wear will occur on th hook. As to repair, it depend on the gun and the design. When a pin is removable, like a Purdey, and on a gun of this caliber, you probably should make a new oversize pin, engrave and harden it. On the vast majority of guns, removal of the pin and making any oversize pin with reengaving, etc is complicated. Generally replacing a pin means you will have to enlarge by reaming the hole in the action. And then the pin should be rehardened, which means rehardening the entire action I would think. In my experience, most lumps are of mild steel and can be welded up, the hook bored in proper location but still slightly forward to allow for file fitting, and this can be done without effecting the braze joint or rib solder. Properly done with a good weld this can show no signs of repair. Wit all this, the barrels should still be blacked down to the face of the action, as many times the action has moved a bit too. As was previously stated, there is more than one way to get the skin off the cat.

Dennis, thanks for mentioning the moving of the action, something most of us wouldn't even consider.

Tell me, is an action off face if its dead nuts with the forearm latched on,but when off,it shakes .002 thou???

I had another gun that was like that in both test conditions,sent it to a reputable man on this board,charged the money,fired the shots of 50 rnds,and basically back to where it was before the repair.
No lie,and I aint telling the name either.
[no it wasnt a solder shim neither.]

I recall Dr. Gaddy mentioning that Kirk Merrington (I think) was using a plasma spray deposition of a thin layer of metal, thus reducing the labor to refit.

Chuck you have shown yourself to be a tinkerer, Google Micro-tig welding, I believe you could learn that pretty easily. I've never performed low pressure or vacuum micro-spray welding. The safety and weld environment aspects are tough, so if someone has a shop doing it, let them.

Reading about them and doing them are two different things of course. Takes about 5 years of practice to get any good at any of them. Anyone doing either technique every day is worth their pay. Combining that with knowing why the joint is loose, is worth even more.
These are low deformation, low heat techniques that protect the base material. Perfect for old gun parts, old door hinges, classic cars, motorcycles, etc. Surface pitting can be filled too, but time is money. How far do you want to go?
Like any tool, correct choice of application is called "skill".

With so much internet chatter about looseness, I'm surprised more people don't study surface restoration more thoroughly. I'm beginning to theorize that much looseness is in the original design, and we miss-apply our vetting rules.

Welding under a loop is done before you have a morning coffee.

Well here's my two cents. Just to clear up one piece of misinformation, not all pins are case hardened. In guns with removable end caps where I have actually removed the pins none of them were case hardened, or at least didn't appear to be. It was also impossible to tell if they were worn as I didn't know the original diameter, they showed wear but was that from the maker sticking it in a lathe for a little polishing??At any rate if you don't remove the pin you'll just be guessing at it's condition. Obviously, guns can be tightened in a variety of ways, how you do it depends on what day it is, or how much time and money you want to spend, or maybe even your skill level,whatever. Nevertheless, the best possible condition is when the pin is perfectly round and polished and engages the hook all across it's width and over it's entire contact area. If the hook and pin are polished mirror bright, in perfect contact and the gun closes tight as a bank vault, why then you've got a gun that will give the longest use. I don't know Mr. Eversull except for his great reputation and having spoken to him by phone, but unless he can walk on water and also turn it into wine he cannot achieve what I've just described without removing the damn pin. I've got no problem with shimming a hook, welding it, using scotch tape or chewing gum. All are better than shooting a loose gun. But if you want the best it's best to know what's best.

The first time a shotgun is cycled every part invloved is, in theory, worn. The amount of wear might be only an "atom or two," but it is there. That said, we always come back to the questions of how weel to make any repair. We must always consider sensitivity to the aesthetics of the original gun, cost, need for future durability wishes of the owner, etc. But then, we have said all that. The best repair is the one that fufills the most wishes at the highest level for the least cost.

The mechanically best repair would be one where:
- The hinge pin has a round section of hard metal,
- The hook has a round section of hard metal,
- Hook and pin have concentric axis,
- Surfaces have sufficient clearance for a lube film,
- Surface finish is conducive to lube retention.

I have an 1876 Remington Whitmore with 2 sets of barrels. The 12 gauge bbls are tight on the face. The 10 gauge bbls are a little loose. A .001" shim tightens the 10s up quite nicely. Since the 12s are tight it would appear most of the problem is with the hooks on the 10s and very little problem with the pin.