I might have missed it; does anyone know of a chemical breakdown for 1900's era barrel steels? Im looking specifically for plain Krupp Laufstahl circa 1915. Needed are the precentages of carbon and other addatives.

Many thanks,

C.

If you find out, please post it. I would like to see it as well.

Pete

I asked Geno and he had a good answer several years ago. Perhaps he could dig it out again. I am sorry I did not save it.

bill

So you would like the components for a plain-jane Krupp tube? I'll have to look but Krupp was about as serious about his steel as Heinrich Ehrhardt of Reinische Metallwaren(?) in that he demanded 1st quality puddlers early on when using producing Crucible steel and held a school for the puddlers either in German or England, possibly by the English. Either Fremy or Captain Lahitolle penned a text with the name "Gun Metal" in Paris in 1874 and I think this was my source. But Krupp Crucible tubes were of 3 parts iron and 1 part steel with Manganese, which was a component in the ore from the Siegen Mines.

With that said, how about circa 1905 Krupp Chrome Nickel Steel Brand "D"???

0.5% Carbon
3.26% Chromium
0.16% Manganese
1.26% Nickel
0.04% Phosphorus
0.11% Silicon
0.03% Sulphur

Tensile strength was near 106.5k lbs
Elastic limit near 92.5k lbs/in^2

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I should have looked earlier....

Metallurgy: The Art of Extracting Metals from Their Ores, and Adapting Them to Various Purposes of Manufacture
By John Percy
Published by J. Murray, 1864

http://books.google.com/books?dq=krupp+carbon&pg=PA837&id=RYpBAAAAIAAJ#PPA837,M1


Another analysis of Krupp steel used for railroad rails.
Engineering chemistry: a practical treatise for the use of analytical chemists, engineers, ironmasters, iron founders, students, and others
By H. Joshua Phillips
Published by C. Lockwood & son, 1891

http://books.google.com/books?id=UgBIAAA...ganese#PPA65,M1

Side by side analysis of Krupp with other steels.
A naval encyclopædia: comprising a dictionary of nautical words and phrases; biographical notices, and records of naval officers; special articles of naval art and science
Published by L. R. Hamersly & co., 1880

http://books.google.com/books?id=IPvxNqDjeXYC&pg=PA387&dq=krupp+carbon+silicon+Manganese

Another side by side comparison
Proceedings - Institution of Mechanical Engineers
By Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)., Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)
Published by Published for the Institution by Mechanical Engineering Publications Ltd., 1902
Item notes: pt. 2

http://books.google.com/books?id=HXbNAAA...anese#PPA837,M1

Alfred Krupp: a Sketch of His Life and Work: After the German of Victor Niemeyer
By Kate Woodbridge Michaelis, Otho E. Michaelis, E. Monthaye
Published by T. Prosser, 1888

Krupp puddled steel plant
http://books.google.com/books?id=UKlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=krupp+puddling#PPA59,M1

The composition seems to change over time and possibly by intended use.

Pete

Since at least the 1880s, big guns, naval and the like, were Crucible Nickel steel and I assume, but could be wrong, that small arms were also. Fremy also confirmed the 1.18% carbon circa 1864 or 1874. Krupp was very, very secretive with the composition of his steel early on. By the early 1900s, carbon was down to approximately the 1/2 percent range.

By the way, I should have better identified Fremy, Edmond Fremy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_Fr%C3%A9my .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Good information, Gents. Many thanks.

Raimey, if you havent done so yet, you might enjoy reading the Krupp family history "Arms of Krupp" by Mansfield. It tells how the old man went spying about Sheffield, England in the 1870's trying to steal their steel formulations. It also tells much about his tenacity and genius for vertical integration.

I know that Sauer and Krupp were partners in the development of Krupp's small-arms Laufstahl. The two firms had a special relationship for as long as Sauer existed. I also read in my research that Krupp gets credit for inventing stainless steel in 1912. I saw a "Nirosta"-barreled Sauer sidelock drilling at Tulsa many years ago. It was in 30 Army rifle caliber and weighed a ton.

Somewhere in my life I read a comparsion chart of bursting strenths of the various shotgun barrel steels. I do recall Whitten Excelsior came out tied at the top with a couple of others. It may have been in DGJ or something Oscar posted here. If anyone know if it, please post.

Best,

C.

..by William Manchester...and I was lot happier with my German Krupp barreled guns before I read the book. Some truly evil stuff there.

Back in 2005 there was a long discussion about the strength of various steels. Geno provided these figures from a 1905 work by Prof Buturlin.

Steel Type Max (lbs/sq in)
Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626
Typical 1905 Steel --- 64,000
Winchester Steel ----- 39,400
Winchester Nickel --- 88,600
Krupp Special --------- 85,340
Krupp 5 M ------------- 92,450
Bohler Antinit ------ 116,630

Pete

C. Kofoed:

I have it on my list along with a 2008 publication like "Blood & Steel" on the topic of artificial teeth, but for now neither have floated to the top.

The gun tube steel composition, as mentioned by PeteM, seems to have been ever changing and I'm sure a tube of Krupp Laufstahl in the 1890s differed from a similar tube circa WWI. Nirosta(I'm bad to let the "t" float and spell it Nitrosa) for example had several variations and from 1909 to 1912 Krupp was busy in the R&D of stainless steels, Class III today, and Nirosta was the result. By the end of WWII there were several Nirosta types such as:
Nirosta 18-8
Nirosta 19-9-4
Nirosta V-2A
Nirosta V-2A Extra .

Nirosta steel was by the Nirosta Corporation/Krupp Nirosta, under the Krupp umbrella was licensed throughout the world and had about 8% nickel and 18% chromium. It was the component chromium which gave the steel its ability to resist corrosion.

I haven't seen a tube stamped so, but "Enduro" was a low chrome-nickel rustless steel(chrom. 13.5%, Nickel 2% max) Krupp Nirosta Company/The Nirosta Corporation. With the last few years and definitely in the past 20, Thyssen(August)-Krupp(Friedrich) developed a new Nirosta as number 4003 and there may be a more recent release.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks much for the correction, Yeti.

Not condoning Krupp or German militarism, but the glimse into the early history of an industrial super empire was very interesting for me. It was amazing how long the old German generals clung to their bronze field canon over fluid steel. The way Krupp played the imperialist powers off one another in selling the lastest weapons technology at the turn of the century was especially illuminating.

C.

I proud to say, that I've never had a Krupped barreled gun. It's composition would be of bad taste to own.

Lowell, then you haven't lived lacking a tube by Friedrich Krupp and Heinrich Ehrhardt.

I think the patent date in Berlin for Nirosta was October 17, 1912(I couldn't find it in the U.S. of A. but here's something similar: http://www.google.com/patents?id=F6ZiAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 ) and the trademark NIROSTA(NIchtROstendenSTAhl) was acquired in 1922. I believe it was Ernest Stuart of the Sheffield cutlery of R. F. Mosley that 1st discovered stainless steel with 0.24% Carbon and 12.8% Chromium or the metal had a range of 0.2-0.3% carbon and 5-15% Chromium. It is interesting to note that these percentage are relative to weight. But Krupp beat Harry Brearley of Sheffield to the punch by filing for the patent just before Brearley discovered. Both could have had 2 independent processes running parallel, but I doubt it as industrial esponiage ran at an all time high about this time. Krupp may have "acquired" blossoming technology and was able to fast-track it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

18 - 8 is our common 304 type stainless, the enduro type looks like it is on the way to our 430 muffler stock

bill

Interesting Bill.

I would suspect that a tube of Krupp Laufstahl pre-WWI would be similar to the Nickelstahl version but info from the mid 1880s may provide some insight into crucible gun tube steel:

Swedish Ordnance Commission Steel component requirements:
Carbon – 0.35 to 0.45%
Silicon – 0.40 to 0.60%
Manganese – 0.40 to 0.60%
Phosphorus – under 0.06%

Swedish Gun Barrel Component requirements:
Carbon – 0.470%
Silicon – 0.443%
Manganese – 0.410%
Sulphur – 0.039%
Phosphorus – 0.083%

Royal Gun Factory, Woolwich – requirements
Firth – Carbon - 0.338 to 0.400%
- Manganese – 0.075 to 0.126%
Whitworth – Carbon – 0.300 to 0.417%
- Manganese – 0.240 to 0.312%
Vickers – Carbon – 0.272 to 0.240%
- Manganese – 0.225 to 0.216%
Cammell – Carbon – 0.143 to 0.194%
- Manganese – 0.341 to 0.248%

Krupp Cannon analyzed in Austria:
Carbon 0.405%
Cobalt & Nickel – 0.057%
Copper – 0.126%
Manganese – 0.184%
Phosphorus – 0.032%
Silicon – 0.191%
Sulphur – 0.023%
And of course Iron at 98.982 by subtraction

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Lowell, there are a whole bunch of Foxes out there with Krupp barrels.

There are several variations of the 300 series stainless steels besides just 304 which are of the 18-8 class. All of these are non-magnetic. Machined a pile of these when I worked at AEDC, TN as we had one test facility that everything which went inside was required to be non-magnetic. For the most part it was either aluminum or one of the 18-8 series, depending upon strength requirements.

If you have a small sample of a damaged barrel from that era we can remove all doubt and test it to verify chemistry. A piece about half the size of a postage stamp would be fine. Let me know and I will provide you forwarding information.

Henri Schneider of France looks to be the cat responsible for the discovery/addition of nickel to steel probably in 1887/1888:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=hXptAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 . So any steel product such as a longarm tube from say the mid 1890s onward would be of the nickel-steel variety, of course with the possible exception of pattern welded tubes. I think he stumbled onto it due to the raw material/ore he was using had a nickel content.

I have a question regarding if a tube has the "Krupp Stahl" mark but not the area of "Essen" stamp, is it implied or since Krupp was a global steel powerhouse, could the tube been made via the Krupp process in another facilty outside of Germany? It sort of goes against the grain of Germany having Essen and the Suhl areas where all arms components could be sourced. But there are those tube stamps of a "T" or "K" inside a rotated square or rhombus usually seen with "Krupp Stahl" but sometimes or usually without the "Essen" stamp. Krupp looks to have an early interest in the Terni Steel Works hydro-electric facility in Italy in the first part of the last 1/4 of the 19th century, as did Vickers. From time to time terms like "Terni-Krupp" are seen. And the Germans and Italians were quite chummy. Or it could be a grade steel made by the Krupp process which includes a portion of the patent by Captain Tolmie John Tresidder, http://www.google.com/patents?id=qdxCAAA...y_r&cad=0_0 . By the way Hayward A. Harvey of New Jersey looks to have advanced gun tubes and armour plates with a process akin to case colour harding where the steel is kept at a very high temp from a fortnight which draws the carbon toward the surface:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=3P1ZAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Miller,

Is this the AEDC you worked at?
http://www.arnold.af.mil/

Pete

I've had a project or 2 there and it's a little North of Lynchburg.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I may not have attached the correct Hayward A. Harvey patent, so here's another attempt: http://www.google.com/patents?id=lv0-AAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

PeteM;
That's the one. I was interviewing for a Machinist Apprenticeship the day John F Kennedy was shot. Started it in Jan 1964 & put in a total of about 10 years there. Another 25 was spent at a smaller Co (Micro Craft Inc, Tullahoma TN) engaged in the model making buisness for the Aerospace Industry.

By the early to mid 1890s, quality gun tubes were composed of crucible nickel steel(elastic limit of approx. 62k psi) and Krupp held the secret and the skilled labour to produce it. The crucible nickel steel could be associated with "Fluss Stahl" while the "Guss Stahl" was probably plain ole cast steel with some of the required components for a quality tube but were present by accident only. Sometime near 1903/1904 Special Weapons Grade tubes(Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl) were on the scene and for now I suspect chromium or something of that nature had been added to the crucible nickel steel. If anyone has a dated example that would narrow the date of Spezial Gewehr Lauf Stahl, I'd like to know it. Or if someone has info on it's composition that would be great. And NIROSTA followed in 1912 when Krupp definitely had a handle on the components of steel and their percentages.

Essen was king when it came to crucible nickel steel and by the mid 1890s there were between 35k and 36k folks empolyed and you can multiply that number by at least 3 to include the families. It was a self sufficient facilty where meat, bread, manufactured goods, haberdashery all were peddled within the compound. Friedrich Krupp, son of Alfred Krupp, laid out the compound with very accurate detail seeing each structure, tree, etc. were the mirror image of the one beside it. Houses had the same number of windows and in the same position. There were smaller sects within the compound such as Westend, Nordhof, Baumhof, Schederhof, Kronenbert/Cronenberg, Alfredshof, Altenhof(retired, disabled workers).

There was also the Annen Steel Works which employed about 900 folks.

Krupp also acquired a proving grounds as well as a port area to completely construct a ship with no outside assistance. Grusonwerk at Magdeburg-Buckau was the proving ground with about 4800 workers where shields, turrets and like were made and tested. Germaniawerft at Kiel-Garden was where the ships were made and it had at least 3500 workers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

If anyone has an Ithaca or Fox with Krupp steel tubes, I'd ask that you post a pic of the mark. For now I don't think the tubes were made in Essen, but probably made at Bethlehem Steel where circa 1900 Captain A.E. Piorkowski as the official Krupp representative. Ingots of crucible nickel steel and/or the licensed process was probably the means or source of the tubes. And another thing, does any of the examples have the preliminary proofmark; were the marks removed, etc. In the early 1880s, the U.S. of A. attempted to gain access to the Krupp facility at Essen but Alfred Longsdon of London, Krupp's agent, denied the request.

The Mannesmann brother attempted to get a foothold in the U.S. of A. with the assistance of Colonel A.A. Pope in 1894 and then the acquisition/merger which in 1896 formed the Mannesmann Cycle Tube Company of Adams , Mass. but it folded in 1898.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, here are a couple of pics of Fox C Grade, no. 2004. Underside of the barrels show Krupp Essen.

Mr. Hallquist:

Thanks for the effort and that may answer one of my questions. About what year was the Fox completed? But the German folks were/are a proud lot and similar to the LLH stamp I would expect to see a set of initals on at least a few sets. Are there any Fox or Ithaca records that note where the fluid steel tubes were acquired?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel( http://www.bethlehempaonline.com/bethsteel.html ) Companies paid a undisclosed mint + $45/ton for the Krupp steel plate license - NY Times Nov. 7th, 1897:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A00E5DA123CE433A25754C0A9679D94669ED7CF .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, the Fox was of 1905 vintage. I have had guns , or seen guns , with the Krupp Essen name. I have even seen guns with Krupp on the underside, but with lesser steels like names from Baker Gun and Forging catalogs stamped on the top of the breech. This all happened in the 1910-15 period when barrels were hard to come by from Europe. Apparently , if they had an order, they would deliver the gun with barrels, but not necessarily the steel advertised. In this case, better steel.

Mr. Hallquist:

Thanks for the info/effort.

Parkers, Western Field, etc. any U.S. of A. maker with the Krupp option may provide insight. I'm really curious how the tariffs of circa 1900 affected raw products, semi-raw products and finished products with gun tubes being the product of concern. The U.S. of A. was consuming a whole lot of Krupp crucible steel(engines, etc.) and I am also curious what form it arrived in the states.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, circa 1905-1910 many makers used Krupp barrels. I can think of Ithaca, Fox, Baker, Stevens, Torkelson, Tobin etc. Unrest in Europe affected all of these makers, in that barrels became harder to buy from there. I have seen pictures of an old gun factory in the US that showed rough barrel forgings laying flat in racks along a wall. There must have been several hundred in that picture.

Today I viewed at least a baker's dozen of drillings at the Alabama Gun Collector's show in Birmingham and one was an underlever proofed in Zella-Mehlis during 3.12(March 1912 - Suhl began with the new proof rules in April while Zella-Mehlis led the way beginning on September 1st, 1911) that had an older Krupp stamp on the top of the scattergun tubes but also with a "Acier Cockerill LLH" stamp on the bottom of the scattergun tubes but with a Krupp rifled tube. The guy reiterated that it had Krupp tubes because of the Krupp stamp atop and I told him that it didn't matter what was stamped on the top, the scattergun tubes were Cockerill steel sourced from LLH. Interesting mixture and I'm suprised the Cockerill was filed off if the owner wanted Krupp tube steel. I am beginning to be suspect of any steel type tube stamp unless supported with an analysis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The following is a pic from Ludwig Borovnik's site, http://en.precision-rifle.com/ :



He's probably attaching his Ferlach assigned craftsman number but I think it gives insight as to how most of the marks were applied; one at a time. Although post WWII, I assume this to have been tradition and varied very little froma pre-WWII effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Info from marks/stamps suggests that LLH, or possibly some other Belgian tube maker, may have had a contract with Krupp firm for steel for tubes or may have imported tubes in the rough but I haven't seen perliminary German marks on tubes stamped with "LLH" and "Krupp Stahl".



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

So how can a tube acquire a Krupp steel stamp atop and have a Acier Cockerill LLH" stamp below? Well, LLH(Laurent Lochet-Habran - http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...aurent%20gb.htm ) possibly under an umbrella contract thru a licensing agreement between Krupp & FN circa 1900, was making tubes, some of which were for export to the U.S. of A., and may have pulled the wrong tube from the wrong bin. LLH, Lucian Clement, possibly Sl - Syndicat liegeois. & others?, either had a license to use Krupp ingot steel or were under the umbrella of the FN-Krupp agreement.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A few Russian sources give Krupp Fluss Stahl as having:

0.45% Carbon
0.035%(Up to) Phosphorus
0.70% Manganese
0.25% Silicon
0.035%(Up to) Sulphur

They also note Special(Spezial-German)-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl as being patented by Krupp in 1896 and having the following components:

0.61% Carbon
0.04% to 0.43% Phosphrous
0.65% Manganese
0.65%(??) Silicon
0.04% to 0.43% Sulphur

They give Nirosta(stainless steel) as having 18% Chromium & 8% Nickel in it's classified component content. Also noting that it was a very difficult steel to blue or cosmetically alter.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'd think the first analysis would be closer to the actual composition- the second sounds like AH Fox Chromox , developed after the Krauts cut off the flow of Krupp Stahl following the Lusitania business- go figure. Nicht Fur Kugel-- Not for use with slugs- wonder why so--

The House of Krupp is indeed a great read- they had developed nickel based ordnance steels, but even during the Boer War- the Junker High Command would only approve Brass alloys for their mortar and field cannons- Mauser and the Big Bertha of WW1 changed their minds, and Krupp, like Siemens and I.G. Farben and bayer, became Kraut wartime dynasties, both the 1914-1918 version and the sequel 1939-1945- Jawohl!!

I have a Smith 12 gauge 2E mfg. 1907- Crown Steel with that LLH- a friend has two very much higher graded ejector Smiths purchased by his late relative circa 1909=1910- One has the Sir Joseph Whitworth Fluid Compressed Steel on the top barrel breech, and the seperate series of numbers and the sheaf of wheat symbol on each barrel flat- the other has Krupp Flusshall (fluid steel) barrels and also so marked on the barrel breech--

Interesting old thread. Percentage historical opprobrium never made the list despite a couple of suggestions that it should. Does your Arisaka vibrate with evil when you shoot it at paper? No? Good thing for you. The merchants of efficient death know no borders and have adapted pretty well to peacetime spillover. Can you say Antron? Don't get your knickers in a twist over a name on a piece of steel cooked in Pennsylvania.

jack

Post deleted by R.R.

I think you've summed it up but the cooker was probably in Liege. Most of the tubes on American makes which have Krupp, etal. almost always have some sort of Belgian tube maker's mark or initials which may be for the importer. I'd say Krupp, or a plant making steel from a Krupp recipe, provided the raw material in some form natural to the tube maker.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, after all the very interesting information I am happy to have a Beretta with
Böhler Antinit Steel barrels.

JC

JayCee:

What a funny that really made me chuckle and indeed for now, I don't know of any Boehler counterfeits and I use that term loosely regarding Krupp's recipe, but Geno did indicate that the Izhevsky facility did have a similar recipe.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I see I conflated the armour hardening process at Homestead with the geographical origin of production of Krupp-Essen marked barrels for early Fox shotguns. I retract my misinterpretation of the evidence. Perhaps Essen denotes "made in Essen" and perhaps it doesn't as stamping barrel top likely wouldn't survive white tube to struck barrel. I assume the stamp was put on in Philly by someone at Fox. I stick by my assertion that those who are going to collect pre-WWthis and pre-WWthat probably would be well-served by accepting the simple lack of pre-cognition of people living at that time. Same goes for the "militaria" of enemies past and present. The fault is not in our artifacts.

jack

Also only the best were imitated or imulated, i.e., imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1911 Fox BE #177XX has "KRUPP FLUID STEEL MADE BY" top right breech area in italic serif font. Underside both barrels fwd. of flats: "-FLUID-STEEL-KRUPP-ESSEN- 4" italic sans serif font with exception of barrel wgt no. "4" which is awfully deep to have survived finish striking from a marked raw tube. Right side barrel flats at least 3 strikes of the Fox Proof oval and left side "B 177XX" struck over the Fox Proof oval. No evidence of obscure initials Belgium-side. Files marks on forend lug and scraper marks underrib and adjacent on barrels sure speak All-American to me. The top barrel stamp matches Daryl's. I have no idea what's "supposed" to be found on the underside. Lots of folks know how to use stamps.

jack

As am I with my 1960 era Sako Forrester L579 in .243Win. with its 22" Bofors Steel barrel. Kraut steel making is good, as was ours- whether in 1905 or 1945- but even wonder why in WW11 the Krauts went overboard to protect the Svedes-Jah? because Sweden has the best ore concentrations for both tool steels and stainless- and the Krauts used plenty of Svede ore for engine bearing grade steels and other special alloy needs of wartime ordnance--

Now in the USA during that same time, a small town in mid-central PA was a very high priority for the Krauts- if their plans to launch either long range bombers or missles from their subs had developed- Not Philly, Not Pittsburgh- Latrobe (Home of the greatest golfer of all time, IMO- Arnold Palmer) and Rolling Rock Beer- and Carpenter Technology Steel Mills- again, like with Sweden, that area in PA produced high grade ores.

We used almost exclusively Carpenter tool steels in my Grandfather's shop- oil, air and water hardening- they were one of the first to color code the bars for easier ID-and I see from a careful reading of my 1981 Brownell's issued Brophy book onLC Smith Specifications, Carpenter steels called out as first preference by both Hunter Arms Co.- and even post 1945 with Marlin.

I have 4 older graded pre-1913 LC Smith, all 12 gauge- I have yet to see a LC Smith in any of the gauges they produced with Krupp Steel. A friend has a BE 12 gauge Fox made in 1915- with Krupp Steel barrels-beautiful gun indeed..

I haven't seen any info to the contrary and invite any and all info from this side of the pond on tube sourcing, but pre-WWI, almost all accounts give that all(I'm sure there are exceptions) American double makers less Remington & Winchester, sourced their tubes abroad "in the rough". That is why they fought so hard to keep the "single tubes bored in the rough state" on the free list. And every time there was a potential tariff there was a huge amount of wailing & gnashing of teeth which entailed a letter to the tariff folks. Post WWI, that was a totally different story as the American makers had to look at home for sourcing because the sourcing connections/routes were non-existant.

A few accounts give that Krupp tubes were acquired at the facility in Essen but I do not think that to be the case as Krupp only made big guns and not small arms. To my limited knowledge Krupp did not "rough bore" any tubes for smallarms.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just late night speculation, but what's the chances of ingot importation? Possibly another tariff end run, post WW1 and fitting with reconstruction of the europe? Certainly, Belgians weren't the only tribe capable of making a round bar with a nice hole in it.

How many of you still remember razorblades made with "Sheffield steel" in the sixties? I don't imagine that meant the bladss were made across the pond. But it could have been anything from a recipe to actually manufactured complete in Sheffield.

Probably backtracking, but the industrial espionage and more legit hiring of imigrant steel engineers/scientists occuring in the industrial age and into the war yrs, certainly resulted in American steel industry's ability to compete with Euro steels. Also, the US gov't employed industrial espionage/talent stealing itself in many strategic war capacity areas. Metals were very likely one of those areas. While the famous Euro steels were legendary, American steels proved time and again to be the match or better than them in war machines, apparently without creating mysticism comparable to the European makers. That mysticism continues today in the gun biz. CSM still offers "Krupp" barrels at a premium that has no apparet functional value, just a mark on the barrel.

The long run of MIL Specs of the US (AN, NAS, MS, MIL, etc.) created the finest manufacturing system in the history of man. The recent demise of the MIL Specs was purely a economic decision, probably led by the likes of Teddy to fall into line with the EU ISO crap that did nada to advance the US manufacturing, but cost untold sums to implement. A big early step toward a "new world order" IMO.

RWTF, you can keep the rough stock Rolling Rock. It's beer, and there is not much more you can say about it than that. Arnold Palmer is indeed a living legend, not only as a golfer, but a man of many talents and acheivements, including aviation records.

But the Belgians were the only klan capable of making a quality round bar with a nice hole in it at a price-point and that's the key. The had the craftsmen; they had the machinery and they had the market. Baldwin Brothers( http://books.google.com/books?id=9n7PAAA...;q=&f=false ), William Henry Cole & Son(Baltimore Hardware), Henry Keidel & Co(Baltimore Hardware), William Read( http://books.google.com/books?id=igBEAAA...;q=&f=false ), Joseph Giles Riga(possibly directly to Belgium), Perry, Ryer & Company all had the connections which may not have been straight to Belgium but to the Netherlands or Switzerland and then on to Belgium. It was, and still is all about economics.

I had considered ignot importation, and it is still a very, very small option, but consider a gunmaking center churning out 200k, 500k tubes a year, maybe PeteM knows who many tube Liege could turn out a year. If it's pre-WWI, you are importing patternwelded tubes, why turn to another source for fluid steel. Daly would have done it if it was feasible out of Germany and that's why he fought so hard for multiple tube import(actually joined/completed) while the rest of the American contigent fought him and the U.S. of A. was right there in the middle with their had out. "Forged" was the politically correct term of the day, in addition to "rough bored", and when fluid steel tubes began being imported( http://books.google.com/books?id=bfxDAAA...els&f=false ), it had to be proven that the tubes were "forged". William Henry Cole & Son(Baltimore Hardware), Henry Keidel & Co(Baltimore Hardware), Daly, William Read, Joseph Giles Riga, Perry, Ryer & Company( http://books.google.com/books?id=9n7PAAA...els&f=false ) all were businessmen first and maybe a collector of guns 2nd. At the same time Joseph Giles Riga was also doing the same with rifled tubes: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9501E7D91E31E733A25756C1A9609C946897D6CF (select "Full Article") and info on what led up to it - http://books.google.com/books?id=3fcWAQA...els&f=false (I would guess Mauser Krupp steel tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Billings and Spencer Company company, even Canada was importing components: http://books.google.com/books?id=yGlOAAA...;q=&f=false . I can't say he's telling the truth about the state of the tubes but it is possible they were importing American steel because it was less expensive.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

November, 1908.

"(6)We further request that shotguns barrels in single tubes forged rough bored and gun blocks for gunstocks rough hewn, or sawed, or planed on one side, be continued on the free list as at present, because their manufacture or production can not be economically undertaken in this country."

Hunters Arms co., Fulton, N.Y.
Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca N.Y.
Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn.
Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N.Y.
J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass.
N.R. Davis & Son, Assonet, Mass.
Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N.Y.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XW0vAAA...uns&f=false

1908-1908 Hearings

"The importation of forged rough-bored tubes for barrels by the American manufactures for the corresponding years were:
1903, $233,826.66;
1904, $172,691.19;
1905, $216,876;
1906, $260,683.

It will be seen from these figures that we have been barely able to hold our home market aganist the finished product of foreign competition,
and have drawn heavily upon them for our rough tubes or barrels, which do not come into competition to any considerable extent with similar manufacture here,
being produced abroad by low-paid skilled labor of special experience."

http://books.google.com/books?id=kH5JAAA...els&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
Those quotes certainly shed light on the economics of the day. Good stuff. Did you find any information on the depression years and how that might have affected importation vs. home grown?

Thanks Raimey- I know that WRA went from their nickel steel ordnance barrel steels (US Steel in Pittsburgh) to a stainless in the 1920's, a friend has a M12 20 gauge with a stainless barrel, and Dave Riffle details that- but the "backblast" lead WRA to develop their form of 4140 for their Winchester Proof Steel- My guess is that as Remington and Winchester were forming their own barrels out of nickel steel even before 1900, they didn't need to import, as did Parker, etc (who didn't made rifles along with shotguns, regardless of whether doubles or pump/autoloaders) just a guess of course--

I have a Super Grade M54 from 1935 in .220 Swift with a 26" stainless barrel- now modified to the early M70 (1936-1941) bolt and safety, and with a Timney trigger, OW- pretty much original- fortunately it was ordered with scope blocks and the receiver was alreadt drilled and tapped, as doing that operation in stainless is an entire different "ball game" than in nickel alloy steel sans chromium etc--

I can somewhat compare the "rough tubes" tarrif of 1908 with a more recent Habitat 4 Humanity set of experiences- about 12 years ago, we "stick built" the spec houses for that program, and we used 2x4 "pre-cuts" imported from Canada-as they were cut from length at the sawmill to aprox. 92 & 5/8" they were considered a manufactured product- they also were jig drilled with a 3/4" wing bit off one end- at 16" up from the floor plate for the Romex to be run in later, and that also made the 2x4's a "manufactured product" and at a way lower tarrif rate- that has all changed--

We always had some rookies on the job- wannabe carpenters, but you gotta learn from somewhere- we had one crew stud in three partition walls and set them in, plumbed and lined perfectly- except they had the Romex holes up at the top plate, and not at the base or floor plate level- Ooops--

Not sure how many here would be interested but there is a good book on the Arms of Krupp.An interesting read on one of the most wealthy familes of the Reich.
You might be a bit suprised how Alfried was a late backer but a strong one to AH (putting a million marks up to get him elected at Gorings insistance,along with others, in the "last election").He also ran 138 concentration camps,including one for babies, and employed SS guards to beat and starve men, women and even children to death.All to keep up production quota's from Albert Speer's orders.
He was of course convicted at Nuremburg.

Not judging anyone who owns guns with the Krupp name, I am "guilty" as well with several in the collection.
Its very long but quite interesting.

http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Krupp-1587-1968-William-Manchester/dp/0316544906

I've found some but A.H. Fox's spooling up to make rifle barrels and the lack of foreign sources during WWI forcing American steel conglomerates to become sources really complicates things along with the impact of WWI. Just like my thought of just trying to learn only about pre-WWI German proofmarks when there's post-WWI, during WWII when Germany expanded their proofhouses, and post WWII.

DaveK:

I still have it on my "to read" list but haven't progressed much.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

An interesting read from 1884(p.82-83), http://books.google.com/books?id=zCdYHug...eel&f=false , that notes that Sir Henry Bessemer was going to patent/allow the use of a patent thru payment for his crucible steel(tiegelsteel??) process in Belgium but Krupp stepped in and swung his big steel bat which resulted in the whole lot going to Krupp of Essen possibly being the origins of the "Fluss Stahl" that we are familiar with. Interesting the fact that 2 Belgian steel craftsmen traveled to Essen to seen employment in what looks to be industrial esponiage but may have been the beginnings of a Krupp-Leige partnership/agreement.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1898 German steel terms to English:
http://books.google.com/books?id=EDU1AAA...;q=&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Interesting Heym Krupp steel tube offerings: http://www.bitsofpieces.com/heym.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just wanted to cross reference the 2 threads:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=228548#Post228548


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20russe/a%20matska%20gb.htm

Interesting set of 3 Ring Krupp tubes by Kilby on F.O. Matska #177. I wonder how Sauer was involved and if that serial number sequence is Kilby's:





Even though the area forward of the flats differs, there looks to be a similar brace of stamps on the tubes.

F.O. Matska thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130190&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Vickers, Sons & Company/Vickers, Sons & Maim/Naylor, Vickers, & Co. were chummy with Krupp post 1900 and were paying royalties for either armament, ammo or both. Alone Krupp couldn't make great advances as they had contractual obligations. But by 1912 they too were in the stainless steel game. So, why not lump the steel type recipes and armament together in one royalty payment?? The reason I mention this is that I suspect that Thomas Kilby & Sons procured steel from one of the Vickers entities/reps and they would pretty much have had one stop shopping: Krupp, Vickers, Whitworth, and possibly others. Armstrong was shackled to both Vickers and Whitworth and may have been the Whitworth link but I'm not sure of the date or time period when it all materialzied - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post177490 .



The reason for all this Vickers conjecture is that there's a stamp forward of the flats that reminds me of either a Vicker's hardness test(but this was 1924 or after) or a Vicker's type trademark. Also, I'm not sure I've seen the English version of the Krupp 3 Ring Gun Barrel Steel. But could Krupp have broken the deal with Sauer and doled out the 3 Ring Steel to Vickers, or some other steel entity that was paying royalties? This might be all for naught as it might be that of Matska.

As a side note I forgot to mention in the 1897-1902 period Bethlehem Steel(of Penn. I think) was also in the mix and all involved paid Krupp $45 per ton of hull armour produced. So the Krupp-Bethlehem connection also.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The Brothers Vickers, Albert & Thomas, in the mid 19th century traveled to German to be educated on the latest and greatest in steel technology advances at Neuweidd on the Rhine, or at least Thomas was a recipent. I think it was a decade earlier that Krupp made the reverse trip for the same.

1886 Steel analysis
Vickers #8568 - 0.219% Carbon, 0.529% Manganese, 0.107% Silicon, 0.031% Sulphur, 0.016% Copper

Messieurs C. Cammell & Company - Open Hearth
Messieurs Firth & Sons - Crucible Steel Type
The Royal Gun Factory - Open Hearth
Messieurs Vickers, Sons & Company - Modified Open Hearth??? using German technology???
Sir J. Whitworth & Company - Open Hearth Compressed Fluid Steel forged by a press

Now these were British steel sources for big guns in the 1880s, but I think the sourcing can be extended to small weapons tube forgers like Joseph Kiffin & Thomas Kilby.

Another side note for Bethlehem Steel Company - by the turn of the 20th Century they supplied Nickel steel barrels to Winchester Repeating Arms & Colt's Patent Fire Arms Company

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For the moment, this is the only thread I could think of to attach the following images of Mike Ford's Emil Kerner combo with "Original Kerner" stamped on the tube. It is made on the Ernst Kerner-Anson action and looks to have been made by Wilhelm Kelber for the most part as his monogram is stamped near the forend hanger as well as on the standing breech, unless it is some type of Kerner monogram. I spent yesterday morning with Mike Ford in Lafeyete, Alabama, where he is ahead of the game on Riverview time(Eastern), sifting thru his collection. Now I for one will freely admit that my photography skills with a cell phone are lacking so here are the images:




"WK" monogram near the forend hanger & near the initials "W.K." I think this same image to be found after the bullet on the Krupp tube steel type stamp.


"WK" monogram on standing breech




Also note the proof date of December 1923 as well as a ledger number. So it appears that Suhl began with a ledger number stamp but abandoned it at some point early on. Here's a thread with Vol423's 16 bore with a similar ledger number:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=233252#Post233252



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From time to time I get inquiries on steel types so getting back on task on the Krupp theme, I've read many references, even Krupp, that give that the patent for the Krupp Stahl NIROSTA(Nitro Stahl - Nichtrostendender) was filed by Krupp on Oktober 17th, 1912. As usual there's a small error of 1 day in that as far as I can tell and there is a Krupp patent for that date but it is centered around a fuse or something of the like. Said error will drive you mad as the search becomes a brute force one. So the truth as it appears is that in 1910 a effort by Krupp to compose this steel was mounted and by Oktober 18th, 1912 a most accomplished metal guy named Benno Strauß(1.30.1873 - 9.27.1944), along with his faithful assistant Eduard Mauer, filed DRP 304126 under the alias/pen name/stage name Clemens Pasel(Pasal/Pascal) and subsequent DRP 304159. At first I thought the a.k.a./stage name might have been to mask the Krupp firm in an attempt to fend off competition as all steel makers were rushing to find the Holy Grail of steels during this time. Then I began to dig for info on Benno Strauß who was a Jew by birth in January 1873 in Fürth to a merchant family, Nathan Strauß & Babette Strauß. The short of it being, during WWI(1917) he converted to Christianity and fumbled an opportunity to escape the oppression experienced by the Jews a few days prior to the start of WWII. In September 1944(Krupp did pay him his pension 9.27.1944) his fate was sealed with an order to proceed to Vorwohle bei Holzminden, where within a few days he expired and speculation is that it was pneumonia. There's more of course and I can post the patents with the composition if any are interested.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, I would definitely like to see its composition.

DRP 304126

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

DRP 304159

Ranges of elements:
15 - 40 Prozent(%) Chrom.
20 - 4 Prozent(Precent) Nickel
1 Prozent(Precent) Carbon

Like about everything else, a quaint search evolves into an encyclopedia. But some sources give that Benno Strauß a.k.a. Clemens Pasel was a chemist at BASF(Carl Bosch von der Badischen Anlin und Soda Fabrik) and Krupp initially expressed interest and then funded an effort for a shipment of NIROSTA V2A circa 1914. Some sources give that Benno Strauß joined Krupp's Physics department in 1899 and was the head of Krupp's chemical laboratory by 1904. A bit difficult to discern but it appears that Benno Strauß's research efforts during 1908 - 1912 were funded by Krupp but it required some expensive synthesis of ammonia at the BASF concern to produce the stainless & acid resistant alloy. Maybe Benno Strauß and assistant Eduard Mauer had a satellite office at the BASF facility until the required ammonia component was derived. But the effort was very expensive and Benno Strauß/Clemens Pasel butted heads with management/the funding leg of Krupp's umbrella.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm guessing there's supposed to be a decimal point in front of these numbers.