Have the opertunity to trade for a Purdey. I will be trading my Hussey and some nice cash.
The owner says there is some light pitting in the barrels and would recomend they be honed, should this be of concern? The chokes are more open than i would like for them to be and how will this affect them? Also will this take it out of proof?
All in all both the Hussey and Purdey are from the same vintage, pre WW 1. My Hussey is in great shape with no issues. The Purdey has this one question.
Also It has a red stain finish and I would like that removed and a leather pad installed, can anyone recomend someone?

Why does the guy with the Purdey want to trade?

All things being equal, a Purdey is a more valuable gun - something doesn't seem right. Does the guy need some cash?

Why trade a Hussey for a Purdey, anyway? If your Hussey is an Imperial, it's just as good a gun - maybe better.

Honing the Purdey bbls may take them out of proof. What are the bore measurements on the Purdey? What about the bbl walls? What about the chambers? Be careful about those bbls.

If honing does take the bbls out of proof, you're looking at $1000+ for prepping and then reproofing.

How about trading the Hussey for cash? I may be interested in it. Please drop me a note and tell me more about it.

Thanks

OWD
hfn_03570@yahoo.com

Me thinks you need to have that gun looked over by someone who knows British guns. Bore diameter, wall thickness and extent of pitting will all play into the final answer as the the guns overall condition. opening the bores to remove pitting will add choke, but on a Purdey there is usually not much you can open due to how finely the barrels were originally struck. Bore work by definition takes a gun out of proof. The red stain would be appropriate on that gun, all of my Brit guns with original finish from that period have it.
Steve

"Light pitting" to some might mean a sewer pipe to others.

I'd have it checked out by a knowledgeable person. If you get it cheap enough a few pits might not hurt it as a shooter.....pits just collect powder and plastic residue and keep getting deeper with time. If you got an older gun with say 30 thousands wall thickness and a Pitt that could be 10 thousands of an inch deep you;re not going to have much wall thickness left after honing.

The key is cheap enough remember a sleeved or Teague lined gun is not worth anything like an original Purdey.

And a gun with little or no choke is not worth anything to me as a hunting gun.

The barrels are the heart of any double. Have them looked at and evaluated before you go any further. When you get right down to it, it sounds like you are trading a gun with no issues, that suits you, for one with issues that does not. Chokes, barrels with pitting, stock finish not to your suiting and the need to have a leather recoil pad installed seems like a big list of minor problems. Does putting another grand or two into the gun make it make any sense to buy? If the answer is no then pass. If yes then proceed with caution.

Hussey for Purdey is going to mean more than a grand or two...and from what I've saw Briley is way out of line on most of their prices.

http://www.brileygunvault.com/husseysidebyside12boresidelockejector.aspx

Looks like some sleeve lines on this one.

http://www.brileygunvault.com/hussey12boresidebyside.aspx

OK, I hear you guys, what I am looking at is around 8K boot. Then I have these things to deal with. Need opinions on this trade. My Hussey is in excellent shape. Now the Purdey is very nice but wondering about the pitting issue and what should be done. What if I did nothing, would it get worse?

They might get better once they fill up with plastic and powder residue.

A pit is kinda like a tooth cavity.....it won't get better.

"light pitting" is like "kinda pregnant"

Its pitted or its not,the barrels are the one thing that can't be fixed,stock,internals all can be repaired.A new set of barrels or even sleeving those is a very very big hit.
If you owned a gun that only had "light pitting" would you deal with it if it was just a minor hone before you sold it???

SKB does...

Your Hussey plus $8gs?

Wow - that sounds like a bad deal for you and a great deal for the guy with the Purdey.

What's your Hussey like - sleeved, refinished, or something major like that?


OWD

If you really have a quality grade Hussey in the condition you describe, and were the Purdey in exactly the same condition, then, frankly, you are just trading for a percieved name up grade. You certainly won't have gained 8k in actual increased quality of the gun. I have a Lang and Hussey sidelock that is a best gun in every sense of the word. Just doen't have "Purdey" on the rib. Since the Purdey seems actually to be in lesser condition, I don't believe that I would trade him even for it.

I'm with Joe & OWD on this one. Hussey & Purdey are both considered to be "London Best" guns and even if the condition of both were equal a trade with 8K to boot would not be in your best interest.

Just My Humble Opinion, George

Joe Taylor has it right, as usual.

Happy birthday George

It's easy to say a Hussey is as good as a Purdey...too bad the market doesn't bear this out.

Joe

What are you speaking of?

I guess I am asking are you refering to any certain gun? not trying to stir the pot or anything.

H&H

My Hussey is an Imperial Ejector. Really quite nice a gun but I did not consider it on tier with a Purdey. My gun does have replacement barrels and is choked like I really like. I tried to sell it months ago but never had any intrest.

purdey is just a name and not worth trading for. as with other material objects one gets to certain level of quality and rest is big name premium. is new purdey worth what they cost? nope.

Don't kid yourself a Purdey is more than just a name...are the new ones worth the cost ?....If you can afford one it doesn't really matter.

what happens when to an american peasant when he buys a purdey? what's he going to become: king of england, duke of york,....? i think not.

Purdey is a "Marque Name" but before I would part with a very nice Hussey double, I'd re-read both the late Gene Hill's
"A Shotgunner's Notebook" and his sage advice on British guns and makers, and also words of apparent wisdom (IMO) from John Barsness in his book on Shotgunning- to wit: "Buy the gun that fits you and your shooting style, not by maker's name"- Those dead quail or pheasants won't know the difference. RWTF

maybe the 'dupe' of york...

I can't afford a new or used Purdey but I've saw and handled enough to know there is a diffrence in quality some can see and feel it some can't.

PALUNC, if my memory serves me correctly most English 12 bores are proofed around .729 and at .740 they are considered out of proof. Back boring may remove all the pitting before the Purdey is technically out of proof, and then again it may not.

If you shoot your Hussey very well, I would suggest you hang on to it, or ask the current owner to take care of removing the pitting and measuring the bores to make sure they are still in proof before the sale.

PALUNC,
A call to Purdey and a discussion of what's in the order book may help you make up your mind. You've been given some very good advice here.
Just get that damn Purdey.
Justin

I found my copy of Gene Hill's 1989 book "Shotgunner's Notebook. Page 56- "Guns as Investments" Gene opens with a quote from a 1927 article by my favorite vintage gunwriter and gentleman gunner (not Nash B.- by Capt. Curtis was a close friend of Nash's)-skip to where Gene writes: "But as Capt. Curtis pointed out 30 years ago" and perhaps, like me, you will interpolate this article as being written in 1957-No matter- Gene's words of wisdom make sense to me-Quote: "In the British makers the used gun bargains are just as rare. The famous names are in the $10,000 class and only those who look hard will find one of the many fine but lesser-known makers like Lang, Hussey, Grant or Horsley, to name but a few that are about half the cost of the Purdeys and Bosses but in general their equal in quality and function- The point is that the time for buying investment guns is probably past. But as Captain Curtis pointed out 30 years ago, 'The sportsman should not consider his arms from a cold and mercenary point of view. He does not buy them for profit, but for service, and he should therefore write off a certain amount for service rendered. Nevertheless, a fine weapon will, if wisely disposed of, fetch closer to its purchase price than a cheap gun would, and a really fine one will, if held long enough, frequently bring more"..

I would not be so crass as to tell another man, even one I might know well, how to spend his money, especially on things as important as good side-by-side shotguns, as much as I would not welcome him telling me how to spend my gunning $- BUT, unless you will not live a complete life without a Purdey shotgun, and feel you are getting a fair value in trade for your fine Hussey shotgun- well, you can do the math. I would pay the money to have Jack Rowe examine this Purdey from "stem to stern"- as I too, being of a suspicious nature, as are most surviving Foxes, would question the possible motive of the seller of the Purdey in consideration. For what it is worth, I had Bill Jaqua sell a 12 bore Hammer Purdey that was in the family and came to me-it had Damascus barrels and back then we didn't have the interest and possible expertise in that technology of another era to realize they are shootable, with the right loads and conditions. I wish now that I had kept it, like several Harleys and a few cars I owned in past times, but life is fluid, like a river, and ever changing, and what pulls our heart and purse strings today may not even arouse a blink of an eye tomorrow!!

I'm still blinking...

So what should he do invest in a clapped out Parker ?

What was Capt. Curtis first name?

Title: GUNS AND GUNNING. Introduction by Nash Buckingham.



Paul A. Curtis, author.

The Brand Value of the name Purdey (BV1) has the effect of doubling the value compared to a Hussey (BV3) named gun, Original Quality grade for OQ grade and Current Condition level for CC level. Both the Husey and the Purdey (SLE's both) should be considered OQ1 (best work level). I'm not clear on the CC's as it stands. Bad barrels on the Purdey are a big hit. Poorly done replacement barrels on the Hussey would also be a big hit. Are the replacement barrels by Hussey? Are they best work barrels? Worst case on repair of the Purdey barrels would be Teague lining at about $2500 to make a shooter and $20,000 for new barrels to maintain value. The Teague lining is a big value hit compared to OE barrels.

Wasn't that basically what I said.

Joe-nobody here ever really knows or understands who you are or what your postings mean-But as our Host, Mr. Weber, as do I, believes in the First Amendment (as well as the Second) you can say whatever you want. Captain Paul A. Curtis was about same age as his friend Nash Buckingham, was an Army Ordnance Officer in WW1- rank of Captain when he left the Army Honorably-a noted gun authority who was invited to shoot with European Royalty and American "Upper Crusters" too, he was gunning editor for Field and Stream- he wrote "Guns and Gunning" in 1934-died of natural causes I believe in 1946.

And people understand your posts....

Please say more about why you do not regard the Hussey Imperial as the equal of a Purdey? If the Hussy has the diamond grip and the rest of the "Imperial" traits, that is probably not the conclusion a majority would reach. Barrels are the main value component of a gun; both have issues as presented by you. It would seem the Purdey has slightly more though in that the open chokes and pitting cannot be put right while maintaining the value of the gun.

Thanks For The Birthday Wish Joe! I've seen some ragged out Purdeys and a few magnificant Husseys. To me, the names are about equal in quality, the difference depends on the individual gun: overall condition, engraving & barrel quality.

Just My Humble Opinion.....George

This sounds like a case of prestege to me. I have a Hussey that is real nice that fits me.....But I WANT that Purdey.

It doesn't seem like you're getting a great deal, maybe you should sit back for a few months, chill out, and if you still have to move to get a Purdey, then move forward. But make sure that you're buying for the right reasons.

tim

RWTF, I believe--in Curtis' case--"natural causes" would have to include suicide. I'm pretty sure that's how he died. I'm stretching my memory here, and going back to Evans' "Men Who Shot", which I no longer have.

Yes you are sadly right- just as with Col. Ned Crossman circa 1939 and one of Jack and Eleanor O'Connor's son as well. I lost two close buddies from the 'Nam Era to suicide, also USMC General Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller's only son, a USMC 1st. Lt.- severly wounded and later after re-hab in Bethesda Naval Hospital he O.D.'d on pills- book entitled "Fortunate Son"-

As a Roman Catholic since birth and Baptism, I take that tragic loss of life very seriously, for the Church tells us that no one who takes their own life will enter Heaven. That's what the Church tells us, it also says we can't use Trojans (the latex version, not the economy grade Parker shotguns) when we go hunting poontang. So much for me being a good Catholic. I don't buy that, but as Irish poet John Findley Dunne wrote- "No man is an island--ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"!!

Out of respect for the memory and the high regard in which I hold the late Captain Paul A, Curtis- and his service to our Country in WW1- I ommitted that detail. I hope you will understand my motive in doing so- RWTF

The few Hussey's that I have seen have been extremely well made. My buddy has one that is spectacular. Fit and finish is perfect inside and out. The Purdy would have to be really nice and definitly not have any pitting.

Yup-and the "Beat Goes On"- Joe I don't post here for others to understand me, I post here for two reasons: (1) Mr. Weber says that you and I and every swingin' Dick may-love that First Amendment, don't you? (2) And to give testament almost akin to bowing the knee of fealty to the inventor of this whole Internet gizmo, former Senator and Vice-President and brother 'Nam Veteran Al Gore- who once said something along these lines: "The Internet exists so that complete strangers whose paths in life may never cross may piss each other off in complete anominity"!! And guess what Amigo- he was right, you and I prove that point. Difference is, you always think you are right and I tend to ask questions here-some folks don't like that, tough cookies!! RWTF

one gets some of things by owning a purdey (not the prudy paint brush maker): big well regarded name with loong tradition of making guns (remember manton's 'ole' joe made for colonel hawker?), legendary self-opening action of 1879, quality. what does hussey mean to regular joe? it rhymes with .ussy so maybe new french-made panacea for erectile disfunction?

Now if you had a clapped out hussy that was still purdey then you have something.





Fox were you sent here to drive the rest of us insane ?

With a name like Jagermeister I'd be careful about rhymes.

Over my gun buying career, I have passed up many ragged out Purdeys for between $5000 and $15000. I have also passed up several unmolested, some pristine Purdeys for between $9000 and $45000. I don't think many of the ragged out Purdeys are worth any more today than what they were offered for over the last forty years. The unmolested guns are worth roughly twice to three times the price they were offered for. That is just my opinion about these particular guns, but I remember the good ones like it was yesterday and would not make the same mistake again at the same prices.

Possible so Joe- like "Jake and Elwood"-- I may be "On a mission from God"- the Gun God!! And I would avoid a "Clapped out Hussey" like I would any loose woman with a STD- unless you mean a loose woman who has O.D.'d on "Slow Hand's riffs"- Great Eric Clapton, maybe you shoulda bid on one of his Purdey's-the one with his pal B.B. King playing "Lucille" along with Eric playing "Blackie- his favorite Stratocaster"- love the way them guitar gods name their "axes"-- and Eric's tribute to Robert Johnson with "Crossroads" and Elmore James with "The Sky is Crying" are almost as good as those covers done by legendary Texas guitar slinger surpremo- SRV- none his equal IMO!!

Most guys here have to settle for a hammerless Purdey with less than top condition.
I haven't seen many post starting out with "Purdey's called today."
...but remember, a lesser Purdey is still a lesser Purdey - don't want the chaps to think you've sold the estate to the trust!

Ain't nobody I'd trust with my "estate" today Sir Lowell o'de Thorny Glenns-- Old Michael Millken and Bernie Madoff and the worthless shares of GM common I can use for "bung fodder" today give rhyme and reason to the Regan wisdom of "Trust is OK, maybe, BUT always cut the cards".. A Purdey is a great shotgun, a Purdy is a fine paintbrush, and a Purty Gal is a redneck's dream-- to each his (or hizzen)'s own I guess. I'd like to have that older (pre-1900 mfg.) hammer Purdey 12 with Damascus barrels my late great-GrandFather Seamus took from a crooked prize fight manager (is there any other kind?) in part payment for his winning a bare knuckles match-but NOT have to pay what I had it sold for-limited usage and all that rot, old chappe!!

I would like to say thanks for the advise some of you have given. First I would like to say is that Purdey is not a rag of a gun. It is quite nice for a gun made in 1912. I did not think that the Hussey was such a highly regarded gun. I am not that knowledgable on Hussey's. I had heard of them but mine was the first I had actually seen. Mine is in very nice condition and seems to fit me well and the chokes are as I like.
I was just thinking that swaping up so to speak would be best in the long run. I plan on leaving a few of my guns to my son and grandson and thought a Purdey would be a better investment than a Hussey.
My concern was the pitting. I can see by the comments that it can be a concern.
I talked to the owner who by the way is a well known dealer and he belives the pitting can be removed and still leave 25 thousands wall thickness. He has been upfront with me on everything and I appreciate that. My question still stands, will the Purdey be a good deal at 8K trade difference. The chokes and pitting being the main concern. I await some advice.

Then ask the dealer to have the pitting removed. Why should you take the risk? If he's confident that the bbls will be OK, he shouldn't have a problem doing it.

Then have him measure the walls and bores. If there's 25 thous+ and the gun is still in proof, then go for it.

If not, pass.

BTW: Have the gun inspected by a 'smith who knows British guns.

I've seen countless guns that dealers said were fine turn out to be rats once a knowledgeable, 3rd party looked them over.

OWD

Hussey's are highly regarded by people that can't afford a Purdey...

Is the Purdey on line where we can see it ?

Hojo-

You mean Husseys are denigrated by people who don't know what they're talking about.


OWD

If the Hussey and the Purdey are of equal current condition, the Purdey should value at twice the Hussey. If you Hussey is worth $8K and the Purdey is worth $16K, then $8K is the correct "boot." If the above doesn't work out, better take another look.

Leave it for a Grandson. I'd almost kick in a few $ to assist that fine decision. I have Corey Ford's "Letter To A Grandson" framed and in my Browning Gun Safe, along with the "A Sportsman's Advice" written back in 1856, possibly by a British gunner- that has the best line on gun safety ever written-- "All the pheasants ever bred, won't repay for one man dead"-- How old is he, if I may ask? I have two now, Jordy is almost 5 and Sean is not a year, and I hope and pray they will have a place to hunt and safely shoot, as did I growing up. Several of my fine guns are already set to go to them by irrevocable trusts, and if they wish to sell them after they reach their majority, hopefully to use the funds to pay for the college education I didn't obtain, all the better.

We are in a strange time of transition, anti-gun and Liberal leaning forces, coupled with unfortunate incidents involving the mis-usage of firearms (Columbine, Virginia College Blacksburgh, etc) and the days of my boyhood (1940's into 1950's era) when you could visit the local sportshop and buy a .22 or a Model 12 and walk down a country road with it (unloaded) to the county dump or a neighbor's field for rabbits are long long gone. I hope fate and fortune gives you the chance to teach your grandson the ways of a true sportsman, gun safety and manners, consideration for the landowner, respect for the game we kill, and also respect for those who don't share our passion- ie: NOT wearing Tee-shirts with red blood exploding prairie dogs in scope cross hairs or driving back home into a suburb with a dead buck deer tied to the top of your SUV-

I take umbrage on this website when others (possibly well meaning at heart) suggest to me here how I should maybe spend my funds, and I would not do that to you. You impress me as a gentleman and your desire to leave a fine double to a deserving Grandson also speaks volumes- Nor would I ask who the dealer with the Purdey might be- that is not "P.C." here, and as I usually buy my double guns from private parties and not dealers or the auction network, I don't have a "feel" for the good dealers, and I am sure there are many. But if I may be forward, I would also wonder what I could sell the Hussey (assuming you wish to) as against what the "dealer" is offering you in trade against the Purdey. You would have to think that either the dealer has a "potential" buyer for the Hussey, and at a profit, or will "low-ball a bit" the trade to "hedge" his position to later sell the Hussey.

Is the Hussey a better "name" than a Purdey, insofar as British made sidelock ejector doubles are concerned? I can't say with any degree of accuracy. But an old bit of Chinese wisdom from Confucius- "To find the true value of an object, ask three different people that are known to have that knowledge, BUT have NO interest in buying it from you". The only British gun man I know of in the USA is Jack Rowe, and I would trust his opinion 100%. The only gun dealer I know and trust is the now retired Bill Jaqua of Findlay, Ohio- his daughter Cam runs the store now, but Bill is still available, and is a honest and upstanding gentleman, who knows Purdey and other fine guns. I would suggest you consider getting his opinion.

My best wishes with your Grandson. In clsoing, with a bit of Grandfatherly pride- the other day I took Jordan with me to visit an area Dairy farm, where I have had hunting/shooting permission for 20 some years, and am "family" to the farmer-(you can't put a price tag onthe value of that)- and Jordy wanted to see the fiberglas Holstein cow in the far front yard- there was a smaller Holstein calf next to it, and in climbing down, unbeknownst to me, he put his foot on the nose and a piece of it broke off- "Grandpaw, I think I busted the little cow" was what he said- "Are you upset about that?"- I told him of course not, and that he did the right thing to tell me, as I never would have known about it if he hadn't. Will he be a better man in years to come because I spend time with him-I pray that will be so- will he sell his inheritance Parker and a few pre-1964 Winchesters and older Colts willed to him and use the $ for a trip to Las Vegas or on "nose candy and hookers' or saw off a Model 12 and use it to rob a 7-11. I'm betting NOT!!

ANYWAYS,Palunc,where is this egregious pit? .025 is not the worst wall thinness in the world but certainly not the best. It may well be the "tip of the iceberg" of the guns shortfalls.

OK, I'll say it. Keep the Hussey.

Is your Hussey marked 2? Just curious.

Keep the Hussey and put $8k on red,or black and it will give you the same odds or better then what your considering.

No one is going to sell a gun with pits that they know they could hone out without a problem.He doesn't want to take the risk and would rather sell it to let someone else do it.

20k (your Hussey that you had for sale here+8k) does not buy a Purdey,it buys a Purdey thats a good gun "but".

Keep the Hussey. The Purdey sounds dodgy.
If the dealer is/was reputable he would have a gunsmith who would put the issues right and the gundealer could then sell the gun (at a higher price) without any issues.
This whole deal stinks.Leave it alone.

There, I think I have made my feelings quite clear.

Very very good advice.
H&H

Here ya go...like I said 1 Purdey equals 2 Husseys.

I'll ask again...is the Purdey visible on-line ?

Saying one Purdey equals two Husseys is like saying one Cadillac equals two Fords. Too many variables in the equation. In the case of this particular Purdey, getting the pits removed with .025 minimum wall thickness is a "maybe" proposition. Put the risk on the seller: remove the pits, measure remaining wall thickness. Then we'll talk.

Yes my gun is the #2 of a pair, serial number 14325. I have a friend who told me that when you get in the 20 K range there should be no problems.
I would like to sell the Hussey and then have a better chance to get a nicer gun.

The value is two Husseys equal one Purdey/H&H/Boss/Woodward. The difference is that if we are speaking of a best work gun, the chances of any given gun having originally been a best work gun are a good deal higher with the Purdey/H&H/boss/Woodward than with the Hussey. The market does not like uncertainty, as you can see from the advice on the barrel pits.

A best work Purdey, BV1-OQ1-CC3(significant use) = $21,000. A gun in this condition can have significant wear to blue/black, case color, and wood finish; it might even have a quality reblack and/or wood refurbishment. However, it will not have any barrel, frame, or lock issues; absolutely no burred screw slots!! A $16,000 Purdey, BV1-OQ1-CC4 = $16,000 should fit to a current condition description of, " heavy use, but no abuse." Occasionally, you will find a Purdey in CC3, or a bit better, but with barrel pits due to a short lapse in cleaning after shooting corrosive priming. Uncertainty about the barrels must be a big value hit.

There was some guy on here who bought, had inspected, and sent back through three or maybe four different Purdeys in his 20K search.He may have found one but I don't recall him posting that he did.I do know every one he had purchased went directly to a gunsmith and every one had some major issues.

I own its pair, no. 14324, marked 1. These guns were sold to Griffin & Howe, where they were separated. My gun has original barrels that were struck by HJ Hussey and are stamped with his initials. Lovely gun.

The first rule of gun trading should be: 1. Never sell a gun that pleases you and you shoot well until you own a gun that pleases you more and you shoot as well or better. If you don't feel comfortable evaluating the Hussey on your own, I would send it off to one of the smiths who have vast Brit gun backgrounds and get an opinion from him as to the quality of the example you have and how he would compare it to a similiar pre-WWI Purdey. If you are concerned about appreciation, consider that as the most highly recognized items leave the market, lesser names of equal (or better) quality will actually appreciate faster.

Hey Man////Got any pics you can post of that nice Hussey Imperial by any chance....let us see the gun you want to trade
I'd think that would help a good bit,,,,it might get high praise from the guys who really know the good stuff.
I saw one at a shoot, & i thought it sublime
Pics of BOTH Guns would be great
Good luck
Franc

It was my impression that H J Hussey was a bean counter, and not a gunsmith. The guns I have seen with the firm name in various manifestations were all of high quality.

here is a rhyme for ya: to play big-shot game one gots to pay for the name......buy quality not the name now that's poor mans game!

#1

i have exact same tile in my basement whoever put it in for you didn't do very good job. it's man-made but it was on sale at home depot or lowe's so i bought it anyway. nice looking gun.

The tile is the surface of a metal-framed table on my deck. Thank you.

I say make a deal and reunite the pair. Which one of you guys has the case? My guess is neither. It would still be nice to reunite them.

Let's avoid a discussion of bathroom tiles and get back to PALUNC's gun.
About your replacement barrels:
Do you know if they were supplied by Hussey,or are sure they were not? Are there any marks on the flats to provide a clue as to who made the barrels?

GJZ & PALUNC: One of you ought to sell the other your gun thereby reuniting the pair along with their original double case (someone else may have that). What year were your guns made? Griffin & Howe or Atkin, Grant & Lang (who bought Harrison & Hussey's goodwill in 1930) might be able to give more information on this unique pair (I wonder if there was a No. 3?)

Best Regards, George

Well I do not claim to be an expert on English guns. The picture of the Hussey looks just like mine.All I know the barrel flats have Birmingham proof marks and fron what I can see they are from the 30's or 40's maybe later.
Now the maker's name is on the rib and real crisp, the barrel bands are real sharp as well. I would say my gun was made about 1914 as it has Hussey's last address on rib.Oh mine does have a leather pad, would be interested if the #1 gun does as well.It has the same finish as #1. I work at UNC Chapel Hill, bought it from Mid South. I was told a professor from UNC had owned the gun.
All I want to do is trade up to a little bit nicer gun. Mine is in excellent shape as is the 31 gun.

Interesting. My gun also has a leather-covered pad and I happen to have a single-gun case, with an earlier HJ Hussey label, that was owned by H. Max Scheibel of Durham. He was a professor of medicine at UNC.
Does your gun have sleeved barrels? I was at the Southern SxS in April and ran into a fella who sold both guns to Griffin & Howe. Also, there should be an escutcheon on your gun that holds a portrait, complete with improper Latin, yes?

I had mine at the southern shoot as I am a memebr there.I had the letters buffed off the gold oval. Well I am finding out more about my Hussey. I would love to see a picture of the case and label. I had FEI make me an oak and leather case and got my label from Galazan. Its a paper label.
I still would like to sell mine and put the money into something else. I am sure it is a nice gun. When I got mine it had a lot of cast off and tight chokes. I had Mike Orlen bend the stock back to 3/16 cast off and open the right barrel to 10 thousands.
It is now 10 and 25 or 30 thousands, I have been told both by two different people.Mine has the red finish like yours. A very nice gun. But I want something else.
mikep@fac.unc.edu

No. 1 also had too much cast off and I had it straightened a bit. Choked 3 and 19 thou. Here you go:

PALUNC, Your gun looks like that and you want to trade it for a better one????
Where are you going to find a better double than the one you already have?....Your not.

"Joseph Lang married the daughter of James Purdey, and by 1853 had moved to 22 Cockspur St. However, in 1895 James Lang, the son of Joseph Lang, had become Lang & Hussey Ltd., Mr. H J Hussey having been the 'late assistant manager' of Holland & Holland Ltd. In addition to moving to new premises the name of the firm was to be changed to Lang & Hussey Ltd and the combined firms were to be under the personal supervision of Mr H J Hussey."
Quite a history for quite a gun!!!

Mike,
can you put up a picture of your gun?
Are the barrels sleeved like GZJ asked?

I agree if it looks like GJZ's and you have it set up to fit you I don't think your going to get any better.I was reading you back posts did you trade a couple Parker Repro's for it?If so even thou they have gone up you still made a nice trade.

No they are not sleeved. I am not even sure they are replacement. I had a friend who said they were because of the Birmingham Proof marks.
I wonder if the case came with the #1 gun? I find it hard to find a Hussey leather label.
I can e-mail pictures of my Hussey but do not know how to post pictures here. Anyway mine looks just like that one.

The barrels on No.1 are 28'', London-proofed and numbered to the gun.

Our man just doesn't want a gun whipped-up by the trade - and no, the various forms of Hussey does not equal a Purdey.
Much like Wm. Evans I should think.
...but know this, your Hussey gun would be excepted at some uppity shoot, I hear some showed-up with W&C Scotts and got away with it!

PALUNC

Is the name and address engraved in the top rib of your barrels? I have a Hussey Imperial serial numbered 14213 which would be slightly earlier than your gun. "H. J. Hussey, Ltd., 81 New Bond Street, London" is engraved on the center of the top rib. I'm guessing that may not be the case on replaced barrels.

tim

"accepted" LG not "excepted"

If #1 has London proof and 2 has Birmingham ones perhaps barrels have been replaced.

To post pictures Mike,and you should learn how if you want to sell a gun (or meet loose women )on the internet.
Its easy;
1st- Join a webhost site I use http://www.hunt101.com/index.php

2nd- upload your pictures-just like emailing them.

3rd- use the 3rd box from left,"enter image" in top of the reply box here,cut and paste the IMG link under the picture on the web-host site.
Thats it !

The rib is marked 88 Jermyn Street. If barrels were repaced then they either laid the old rib back on and re-cut the barrel bands.
What would be a fair value on my gun?
I would be interested to hear how GJZ came by the #1 gun. Seems he knows a lot about the previous owner. I wonder if all this was done recently or many years ago? I would think G&H would not break a pair.
Overall condition of my #2 is extremly nice.

I found No.1 on Steven Cobb's table a few years ago while at the UP SxS Classic. While at the Southern, an acquaintance mentioned that he had owned a pair of Husseys and determined that my gun was part of that pair. He mentioned that No.2 did not have original barrels, though I don't recall whether he said sleeved or replaced. He lives near Raleigh and sold the guns to G&H. My gun's rib has the Jermyn Street address and like your gun, I suspect, has a remarkably pretty diamond grip.

OK lets put this thing to bed. First I would say thanks to all the comments. I have read them all and given some thought to everyone.
Second, thanks to GCZ for the information about the story of the Hussey's. I still think there is more to tell and I have a few more questions.
Now, I have decided not to go after the Purdey with the pitted barrels even though I respect the dealer and his opinion and even though they may be cleaned out and still be at 25 thous.I will look else where for another gun.I still beleive that in the 20K range there should be no issues to deal with.
Now to the people who would like to see #1 and #2 re-united, I want to sell and the other guy does not want to buy.It would be great to re-unite the two but such is the case for a lot of other pairs.
I will probablly post my Hussey on Gunbroker since I have some knowledge of how to post pictures there. I would still like to hear from GJZ on what value he may think mine may be worth. I have listened and watched this site many times before and have gotten some good advice from it.Thanks.
mikep@fac.unc.edu

You may have already said, but how long are your barrels? Does your gun have the diamond grip? What length of pull? If these are all good, then the only discount on your gun arises due to replacement or sleeved barrels. Is the gun in proof?

Thanks, yes it has 28" barels just like the #1 gun. 14 3/4" LOP and yes it has the diamond grip.
Barrels are in proof for 2 1/2" shells. I had the gun checked out by several people at the Southern Side By Side Shoot, William Larkin and Moore, Atkin Grant and Lang all looked at the gun. No one found any issues.

Here's two Husseys

http://www.brileygunvault.com/sidebysides.aspx

They are both priced about $8500. I can't speak for their condition....but in my observations Briley isn't known for being under priced on their used guns....quite the opposite.

Important to note that both are sleeved.

Here is another one,he doesn't give them away either.

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/listing/1919

So, PALUNC it's still very possible that you do not have replacement barrels at all. Check the proof marks for an idea of date of proofing and if you want send a pict of the flats to the Birmingham proof house where their historian will be happy to read the marks for you.
It would be strange but not totally out of the question for two guns in a pair to have been proofed at different places.

True. It could be nothing more than a simple precautionary re-proof. Usually simple to tell from photos of the barrel flats and water table. Seems to me this whole discussion hinges on the answer. It's worth substantially more with original barrels in sound condition than with sleeved or replacement barrels by someone other than the original maker.

PALUNC

Should you wish, I would be glad to assist in posting pics of your gun on this board. Seems like there is an interest in trying to help figure out if the barrels are original. May affect the price in a positive way for you if they are. Feel free to e-mail them to : timberflint AT yahoo.com if that is something you would like to have posted.

Good luck in your quest.

tim

After the experence I had with Woodcock Hill I don't even waste my time looking at their website.

HJ,
I usually don't look either,to high in his prices,but the lack of "comps" led me there.Just wanted to add a high to say the low
"ask" of the two from Brileys.
I agree with 400 nitro,the key factor in price is going to be those barrels.

Hey, i listed my gun today on Gunbroker. Its number 131019036. Wish me luck.

You're going to need it.

I would very much to have the barrel issue resolved. I took some pictures some time ago and they did not turn out to well. I posted the best one even though they were kind of dark. Did not get any of the barrel flats. Maybe I will get some this week and maybe you guys can tell me.
I had a guy who is pretty knowledgable at my club look at the gun and he was the one that said they were new barrels. I conversed trough GCZ and he said they were not original but his was, and he knew that from conversations from previous owner i beleive. I have a book that shows proof marks and from what I can see they were made after 1930. But I am not an expert and I may miss something. So look at the posting and tell me if I am to high priced for an English Best.

I would very much to have the barrel issue resolved. I took some pictures some time ago and they did not turn out to well. I posted the best one even though they were kind of dark. Did not get any of the barrel flats. Maybe I will get some this week and maybe you guys can tell me.
I had a guy who is pretty knowledgable at my club look at the gun and he was the one that said they were new barrels. I conversed trough GCZ and he said they were not original but his was, and he knew that from conversations from previous owner i beleive. I have a book that shows proof marks and from what I can see they were made after 1930. But I am not an expert and I may miss something. So look at the posting and tell me if I am to high priced for an English Best.

Mike,
I have no clue if it will sell at that price or not,it only takes one buyer and certainly do wish you luck.Two things I really do think would help is more pictures,especially of the barrels and the flats-I am not good at taking them either but you need more then one to sell that gun IMO.
The second is more info,weight,barrel wall thickness,rib inscription.

Good luck I hope it sells for ya and you find your Purdey.

I suggest consigning it with Kirby Hoyt http://www.vintagedoubles.com/consignments.php he can measure the barrels and read the proofs.

A potential buyer might trust him better than he will you.

Well I understand in today's economy that its going to be a tough sell. There is absolutly nothing wrong with the gun. It has been gone over by lots of people. Good wall thickness and no problems what so ever. In fact Atkin Grant and Lang was willing to take it on trade.
I would keep the case and reduce the price 1K. At 10,500 thats not bad for a Best gun.

Oh, one more thing, I ahve been offered a lot less for a lot more.

Just because it is so easy to do.

Put some more pics up at Gunbroker and we can cross post them. Maybe some of the barrel flats would be useful. Use the macro setting on your camera. Take a bunch of pics (the film is free) and pick the best ones.

PALUNC:

Nowhere near enough data to say. Look, a best H. J. Hussey is a very high quality gun by any standard. If the gun is in high condition with original barrels that have simply been reproved in Birmingham, then it's a desirable best gun and that price could easily be in the ball park. In otherwise same condition but with Birmingham made replacement barrels, it's strictly a shooter and that price likely more than twice what it's worth.

Attempting to sell such a gun or, worse, buying one, without such basic data definitely puts the plow in front of the horse.

A little better look at the gun.

I'd try letting Kirby Hoyt sell it for you.

You really think you're going to find someone on here or Gun Broker that would send some unknown person over 10 grand for a picture of a gun ?....

Your 3 day return policy might be like another old mans on here...."Oh well".

The vague description in your add makes it like buying a $10,000 box of Cracker Jacks and hoping you get a good surprise...

He's going to regret this down the road a London best sidelock for a fraction of the price.

HJ,
how about this way?

Mike,
as several have posted,and I will suggest,

I order to monitize your investment and sell the gun,you need to present the product-the Hussey better.Would you buy the Purdey with just what is presented?The price,any price is not whats going to prevent selling it,lack of info with especially about barrels and good pictures are.

More and better pictures.Learn to put them on here-its not hard,let me know where your stumpted-happy to help you.

More information-"barrel thickness is good" is not information.

Look at how a gun like yours are listed with the major dealers and the information/pictures they provide to use as a template.

If not then consider using a consigment service of a reputable dealer and pay him the 15%

Honestly, the ad should be convincing a buyer to pick this gun instead of the Purdey...

The price needs to be a lot lower.

This one is $6950 and the guy (George L?) can't sell it.

http://mylandco.com/index.php?pageid=99&listingid=730


He's tried to auction it off a couple of times with no luck.

Husseys are great guns, but guys buy names and the top names command the top dollars. That's just how it is.

If people just bought quality, American stuff would be dirt cheap.


OWD

You ought to know George just likes to show off all his guns....besides it's sleeved.

Read the ad, HoJo.

It's a 2-bbl set.

Yes - the original bbls are sleeved.

But there is another set, 27", added at a later date. These bbls were made Atkin, Grant & Lang. They own the rights to the Hussey name (that's why the new bbls have the Hussey name on them). So basically that gun has new bbls by the maker.

OWD

Yes jOe and I believe that the ad says that it is sleeved. In all the times that I have watched your posts I have yet to hear you say anything positive about any one else's gun. Is it just petty jealousy or rather some inborn negative trait that you've had since childbirth?

My Hussey is a great gun at a great price sleeved or not. It is a London Best and comes with solid provenance. I got a bargain when I bought it & am passing the bargain on to someone who's smart enough to recognize it.

Best Regards, George

OK I admit I could have done a little bit better job at the description. I am and try to be an honest person. I had the wall thickness wrote down at my house and can not find it. I need to re-measure the barrels.
As of the price, I have seen several English Best guns in much worse condition. Maybe I am not aware where Hussey falls in line with Atkins, Grants, Langs and so on. I know it is not a top of the line gun. Maybe some Hussey owners would like to chime in.
I would like to consign the gun as well. Every dealer I showed the gun to and discussed trading was willing to take the gun and allow me my asking price. That tells me that the gun must be worth the asking price. I also got very good comments on the case, even though I realize it is not a vintage case.
Let me pose this question, is new barrels by another shop worth more on a gun with sleeved barrels? So the order would be, original barrels, new barrels by another maker and then sleeved barrels?

Let me pose this question, is new barrels by another shop worth more on a gun with sleeved barrels? So the order would be, original barrels, new barrels by another maker and then sleeved barrels?

more like......Original barrels, new barrels by original maker, or the maker that currently owns the gunmakers name, barrels by another maker, sleeved barrels. really depends on the quaity of the sleeve job and if the original maker did the sleeve job.

As posted elsewhere, there are some horrible sleeve jobs out there.

JMO of course

H&H

George L.
You need to tone down the flash on your camera, it makes look like you have nickle plated the action on the Hussey. Does it have any cc left?

I missed the other barrels....looking again I see the action is polished maybe that's why the pictures shine ?



In other words you got it for a song and you want one of us to dance.

Here another H.J. Hussey Imperial on the market:

http://www.matchedpairs.com/display_single.php?GID=225&ID=5


Matched Pairs had several of them. I think they were all in the £5500-£7000 range.

http://www.matchedpairs.com/display_single.php?GID=222&ID=5

http://www.matchedpairs.com/display_single.php?GID=278&ID=5


This Harrison & Hussey is not what I would call a Best, but it's pretty close. Harrison & Hussey was a later incarnation on H.J. Hussey. This Hussey was H.J.'s son:

http://www.matchedpairs.com/display_single.php?GID=314&ID=5


This is an Ogden, Smith & Hussey, the final version of the Hussey line. This was H.J.'s son again:

http://www.fieldsportltd.com/gunroom/gun_view.php?gunId=504

A dealer in Colorado had a real nice one a year or two back. It was all original, 90% overall, cased, all the goodies. He wanted $12gs for it and it sold.

Nice guns. But they just don't bring the big bucks.

OWD

NO, joe, IN OTHER WORDS I GOT IT AT A GOOD PRICE AND AM PASSING THAT GOOD PRICE ALONG. I HAVE A STANDARD MARK-UP ON ALL THE GUNS THAT I SELL AND, SO, IF I GET A GOOD DEAL MY BUYER GETS A GOOD DEAL. I DO MY BEST NOT TO OVERPAY ON ANY GUN THAT I BUY, WHETHER IT'S FOR MY PERSONAL COLLECTION OR NOT. I PRESENTLY HAVE A 311 FOR YOUR COLLECTION IF YOU WANT IT. BTW, I DON'T DANCE, BUT I DO SING.

BEST REGARDS, GEoRGE

PM: My grandaughter does my posting & pictures. I'll let her know about the flash. The Hussey does have a little faded CC on the action.

Best Regards, George

Palunc:
Here is a thought if you want to sell the gun any time soon. Look at the U.P. Classic Side by Side site for what dealers are attending. I think Atkin, Grant & Lang may be going to the show. I know other reputable dealers are. Have them take the gun up there on consignment. It will get good exposure with folks that have the wallets to write the check.

Pick one with a good smith so they can also resolve the barrel issue for you. That way even if it does not sell you will know exactly what you have and you can have an informed conversation with a buyer.

Folks here are for the most part only trying to help. There may be a buyer lurking on this site but you are not giving them enough information/pictures to even peak their interest.

Chicago Mike

Let me ask again: is the gun currently in proof?

the bottom line is you need 30k+usd to get good no issues second-hand purdey of good vintage. this item was designed and made for people who had/have everything else including but not limited to : villa in aspen, clearwater, luxury apt. on upper east side,...., rolls royce, jet,.... . money is simply no object. good luck.

Yes the gun should be still in proof. I will try to take some better pictures this week and if I could e-mail them to someone to post that would be great.
I still beleive for the Hussey at 11K that is not a bad deal. I have seen guns in worse shape at higher prices.

So have I - and worth it with original barrels in good condition and in proof. An otherwise nice London best with replacement barrels by an unknown Birmingham maker just isn't a good example of a nice London best anymore. It's kinda like an otherwise perfect '65 Rolls Silver Cloud III with a Chevy 350 in it. It may be gorgeous, run great and be reliable, but it'll never be concours, nor will it ever be worth anywhere near concours price.



Then why post a question as to it's value? You're the owner of the gun, but you don't know for sure that it's still in proof, let alone if the barrels are original or not. Since you "beleive" that "so and so said" trumps a well - informed buyer, then perhaps you should sell it to "so and so".

400m When I purchased te gun the dealer told me it had no issues with the barrelas, and I asked. Now I can hear you laughing but this is a well known dealer and I would trust him. Like I said, I had several dealers look at the gun at the Southern Side by Side shoot and they all inspected the gun from one end to the other. I will name a few again for your viewing pleasure, Atkin Grant and Lang, William Larkin and Moore, Vintage Doubles. If there had been an issue or some doubt I think they would have brought it up. In fact all were willing to take in in trade. So why would they take a pig in a poke if there was any questions?
Now I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable person about "proof". If you can tell me how to tell if it is then I will look and let you guys know.
All I know is the gun has been gone over a lot in the last couple of months and wall thickness was checked and re-checked and no problems were found.

"So and so said" again. Sure, that's a perfectly relevant point when you're trying to sell it to AGL, WLM, or Vintage Doubles, and when you do, you should damn sure remind them of what they said. It's totally irrelevant when you're trying to sell it to someone else (Gunbroker.com), or when you post a question on this board asking what it is worth.



Again, irrelevant. Seriously PALUNC, if you believe that to be true, then the relevant question is why are you not trying to sell it to one of those three instead of to the general public via Gunbroker? If you wish to sell it yourself and get max value out of it, you've got to be able to answer the kind of questions that have been asked here in response to your query. "So and so said" won't even get you out of the gate with a well-informed buyer. If you bought this gun without knowing the answers to those questions...no I wouldn't laugh. Quite the opposite. I have experience with those you mentioned, plus many more. It is EASY to get bit, even when everyone is honest. With all of them, caveat emptor. With better quality British doubles of this age, you need personal expertise, and if you don't have it, you need help from someone who does other than the seller. It's obvious you don't have that expertise. That's not an insult, just an honest observation. Lots of folks don't, and you'd be surprised at how many well-known sellers in the trade don't have it either. This is a good place to get educated feed-back. Most of us that have responded are trying to help you, but you seem resistant to providing the data we need to do so. To start, you need to get the barrels measured and post the dimensions here. Then...



...yeah, the proof marks are crucial here, and that method usually doesn't work. You're clearly not familiar enough with them to adequately describe what's there. The only sure way is photos of the water table and barrel flats, and they need to be crisp enough to make out the marks.

The Birmingham re-proof (or new proof if the barrels are a replacement) will be easy to interpret and are usually easy to date precisely, as Birmingham instituted a date code in 1921 that ran until the Battle of Britain in 1940, and was restarted again in 1950. Given your characterizations of the comments on the proof marks you've received so far, I have to wonder about the expertise of those who have previously looked at them.

PALUNC:

Out of curiosity, is there a mark consisting of a crown over the letter "R" on the barrel flats?

I will get the information this week and maybe we can get this answered. It is marked 2 1/2" and so it still is. That tells me that no one has monkeeded with lengthening the chambers.
I did go to a friend at the club who purchases guns in England and deals with them on a regular basis. The gun passed his inspection. So to answer why do I just sell to one of the dealers? You know very well they do not pay the price an individual will pay.
So let me ask again, is Hussey that low on the pole that 11K is to much to ask for? Is the replacement barrels bringing it down? What you rather have, original barrels at 25 thousands or new replacement barrels at 28 or 29? Is Birrmingham quality that low?
Whoever did the barrels did a super job, they put the rib back on and engraved the barrel bands precise.
Lets wait and see what I can see on the barrel flats. And yes I guess I am half doing things, I had the measurements wrote down somewhere and need to find them, seems I have misplaced them. When I get all the answers I will add more info on the posting.
And I do appreciate all the advice you guys have given me. The discussions have been interesting to say the least.

It is the combination of the two, Hussey's status as a maker and the fact that it has been rebarreled. In answer to your question regarding wall thickness, I personally would prefer the original barrels at .025" wall. I just bought a Holland Royal built in the 20's and it measures at .025" and the proof marks and letter show that is how it left the factory. I like your Hussey, but do feel that your asking price is a bit steep considering they are not original barrels. The Hussey Imperial Mark Renoylds had last year was in very high original condition as another poster mentioned and was priced around 12K...and very properly priced in my mind.
Steve

Precisely, and that means you've got to step into the dealer's role.



No, but it depends on the gun. Dave K posted the link to this one....

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/listing/1919

...and some thought the price too high at $13,500. I dunno, but I don't think I agree. I chew the fat with the previous owner/Managing Director of Atkin Grant & Lang, who is still active in the trade, fairly often. For a high, original condition Hussey Imperial, he gets more than that. The gun SKB mentioned in his post above doesn't sound out of line to me either.



That question is a bit premature, since we don't know for sure yet if the barrels are a replacement or not. However, as I said before, the answer is yes.

Take another look at this H. J. Hussey that OWD posted a link to earlier in this string:

http://mylandco.com/index.php?pageid=99&listingid=730

Attractive gun with two sets of barrels. New set of barrels proved in London, date coded 1980, with maker's name and 61 Pall Mall, St. James's address. Grant & Lang (which became Atkin Grant & Lang in 1960) succeeded to the remnants of the Hussey business in 1930. AGL was at 61 Pall Mall 1976-1980. So, new barrels by the maker in 1980. Also has original barrels, now sleeved, re-proved London, also date coded 1980, so the original barrels were probably sleeved by the maker at the same time the new barrels were made. Asking $6,950. I don't claim to know, but OWD posted that it's been for sale for quite a while. Strikes me as a fair price. If an otherwise nice vintage British gun doesn't have original barrels in sound condition, new barrels by the maker are the best you can hope for.

IF yours turns out to have replacement barrels, since we know that it has Brum marks on the flats, they obviously can't be by the maker, meaning it would likely be worth even less.



The market says original barrels, hands down.

Have we established that a Hussey is supposed to be wearing London proofs...who made these guns for Hussey ?

I believe that the owner of the #1 gun stated that his gun is London proofed. They could very well have originally been made in Birmingham and proofed in London, kinda hard to say.
Steve

While we got both guns here...why couldn't we see proofs on each gun ?

HJ also made guns and struck the barrels on my piece and left his initials. Ken Duglan and I were talking about this at the Southern and agreed that nobody but Hussey would have stamped the barrels ''HJH.''

H.J. Hussey is consistently mentioned with the likes of Joseph Lang & Sons and was heavily involved with James Lang, possibly a Lang built gun giving you a London Heritage??

PALUNC, To get a definitive read on the proof marks e-mail a picture of them to Mr.CW Harding at info@gunproof.com. Mr Harding is the historian at the Birmingham proof house and has been happy to help out vintage gun owners in need.
If you are having difficulty getting a good pict take the barrels to a window and with your camera set on macro and held in one hand use the other hand to turn the barrels till the reflection in the metal is gone,or at least doesn't obscure the marks. It's easier than it sounds and has worked for me.

PALUNC, To get a definitive read on the proof marks e-mail a picture of them to Mr.CW Harding at info@gunproof.com. Mr Harding is the historian at the Birmingham proof house and has been happy to help out vintage gun owners in need.
If you are having difficulty getting a good pict take the barrels to a window and with your camera set on macro and held in one hand use the other hand to turn the barrels till the reflection in the metal is gone,or at least doesn't obscure the marks. It's easier than it sounds and has worked for me.

There was a Lang & Hussey for a short time but that ended when Hussey was found to have swiped cash in the sale of several guns. These Husseys were built just before WWI, well after the Lang connection. Hussey, according to Masters, built guns that were popular with live bird shooters. He was the real thing.

HJ Hussey made his own guns, or at least he oversaw their making. He wasn't just engraving his name on something out of Birmingham.

The bbls on PAULUNC guns could be by Atkin, Grant, & Lang. They may have rebarreled the gun and had the work done in Birmingham, especially if the work was done in the '60s or '70s.

If they did do the work, then the replacement bbls would be considered as coming from the maker. AG&L owns the rights to Hussey.

This is the gun M W Reynolds had:

http://www.mwreynolds.com/HTML/shotHussey.html

$13,500 was a fair price. I wish I had had it at the time.

Is the gun worth more? Perhaps, but not much.

These guys can't get $16,500 for this one, and it's just as nice:

http://www.fieldsportltd.com/gunroom/gun_view.php?gunId=504


OWD

What does that matter, Lang could still be building his guns even long after they parted ways. Hussey sure didn't learn the 'Trade' at H&H, being that they purchased their guns from W&C Scott or W&C Scott & Sons, prior to building a 'Factory' in what 1895.

Ah, no. Jeez, where do people get this stuff?

400 NXP-

Than edify.

Show us what you got.

OWD

I'm all eArz....

GCZ, exactlly where are HJH stamped on your barrels? I find it amazing that you had number one at the Southern and I was walking around with number two. I also showed AG&L my gun as well since I was looking at a Purdey and an Atkin at their booth.
As for my add I did expect people to contact me for further information via e-mail.

Fieldsport LTD, unlike George L, must not have gotten a good deal but they are passing it on!

On both barrels, underside, just ahead of the flats. I was in the middle of the big tent along with a display of guns and barrel wall measuring tools. I hear that your gun also has an articulated front trigger.

Joe,

Will you have your Hussey at the UP shoot?

tim

Sure will. Right under The Gin Room canopy.

16 pages & 9 days later, and we still don't see a picture of the barrel flats & proof marks? That, it seems to me, would put a lot of this issue to bed...

I have also offered to help him,as I have with others learn the pic posting,its not hard.If this old poolman can figure it out I an sure Mike can

here is a link Joe Wood did which is very good;
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...ge=1#Post148935

No.1

OK I tried but can't seem to get a picture good enough. I can fax someone a drawing of what I saw on the flats but in the mean time I will try to describe.
On the barrel flats,
729, a crown over letters BNP, 12 inside a turned square,
2 1/2", 3 tons per squire inch.
Just ahead of the flats is what appears to be an H with a crown over it.Also on one side is a X with the letters P/I with a crown on oppisite side of the X.
Now on the reciever it is stamped BNP, it also has a slash with a crown on top.
Sorry I am not an expert with a digital camera. If I can figure out what to do then I will take some photos. My barrel flats does not have the same as #1, I do not recall a screw in the front lug.And does not have a number on the rear lug. So what can you make of it from my description?

There seems to be some here that may think I am trying to pull the wool over someone. I know some things about English guns but I am not an expert with all the technical stuff. I said from the begining that I was told by someone that they were replacement barrels. I never misrepresented that fact. If anything I have exposed my ignorance to some things. Now like I have said I have showed this gun to some major dealers who are known to sell English guns, they looked the gun over and deemed it fit and was willing to take it on trade.
With that said I would think they would think the gun was worth the 10K I was asking for it.

I will try this weekend when I can take it outside and try to get a better picture so you guys will trust me again.

It's not about distrust; it's about education. Your gun was rebarreled in 1964 and they saved the rib to keep the gun looking nice. It's a practice that did not raise objections like it would today. The barrels were struck as close as possible to the originals but I know your gun is heavier than mine. The checkering also was freshened by an ex-Purdey man about a decade ago. I've also learned that the guns were not sold to G&H as a pair. Mine went to them and some years later your gun was sold to Mid-South. Why your gun needed replacement barrels is a mystery but I'd guess it had something to do with an accident or a clumsy header. You own a very nice gun.

Your guesstimate of the date was way wrong. These are standard Birmingham marks for the 1954 rules of proof (executive date 2/1/55). Crown over BNP is the new Birmingham definitive proof mark; .729", 12 in a diamond, 2 1/2", and 3 tons per (square)" are bore, chamber, chamber length and service pressure.



It's a crown over the interlaced letters BP. Birmingham provisional proof. Indicates that these barrels originated in Birmingham.



It isn't an X, it's a pair of crossed swords. This is the date code. The letter "P" will be in the 9 o'clock angle, the "1" in the 6 o'clock angle (identity of the proof inspector conducting proof). What you're having trouble with is in the 3 o'clock angle. Can't be a crown. I think it has to be letter "B", since there's no other letter that can accompany letter P that was used with this style of date code. "PB" is the date code for 1964.



Yeah, the definitive proof mark was stamped there since the inspector's view mark previously placed there was eliminated under the 1954 rules. You didn't mention London's view mark (Crown over "V") from the original London proof that would be stamped on either side of the water table. They should be there, along with Birmingham's definitive proof mark.

The Crown over "R" reproof mark is not used when new barrels are proved on a previously proven gun. Since it seems to be absent, the barrels are definitely a replacement.

Hint: Lang was a Webley O&O long before and long after this gun was made. That should make it obvious why the suggestion is laughable.

What's a "Webley O&O"?


OWD

OK,I have more info, on the barrels ahead of the flats I had said there was a H with a crown, that turns out to be a BP with a crown.
I looked in Diggory Hadoke's book, which is an excellent book and identified the symbols as Birmingham proof marks between 1954 and 1989.
So I would say these are replacement barrels and are faily current. So how does that affect my asking price? I have two questions though,
Why didn't they chamber it for 2 3/4"? If they were made after 1950 I would assume that they would have done that.
Also would Atkin Grant and Lang been involved and were they incorperated with them at that time?

This is all speculative without the pictures but,

1. The owner controlled what was done to the gun as witness the articulated front trigger. This means that he chose to have the gun barrels done in a manner that fitted his use of the gun and probably to keep the pair reasonably matched. That would explain the 2.5 inch chambers although so would the guns being used in the UK.

2. You have been told the gun was rebarreled in 1964 and I have no reason to doubt the owner of the #1 gun who has apparently done his research.

3. Value is still up in the air as we don't know what might have been done to alter the gun since 1964. One big question is whether or not the gun is in proof--that is, do the current bore measurements and condition match the marks from 1964?

4. It is highly unlikely that the current Atkin, Grant & Lang establishment were involved but that community in the UK is small enough that personnel may well know who did the work.

BV3-OQ1-CC1 = $20,000 Pristine = top one gun of one hundred like guns
BV3-OQ1-CC2 = $14,000 Limited use - slight finish wear, little shooting
BV3-OQ1-CC3 = $10,500 Significent use
BV3-OQ1-CC4 = $ 8,000 Heavy use, but no abuse
BV3-OQ1-CC5 = $ 6,000 Minor repairs needed or restoration accomplished

The above is market research on values. Price is the number between buyer and seller. Value is the common ground starting point for a price negotiation. You are pricing at CC3 condition and the "buyers' point of view," as above, is being expressed more toward the CC4 to CC5 range. This says that the uncertainty about the barrels is causing a value hit. With the new information, we may be able to refine the value of the gun with "replacement barrels by maker." Shooter value alone won't support the above values. So, you must add in some collector/pride of ownership value. The new barrels could give a slight boost to shooter value, but will cause a hit to collector value.

Do you think I may be able to trade even on a Sterlingworth?

12g, not a 16.

Ha!

Nah, just kidding. Your Hussey is nice.

Two 12g Sterlingworths.

OWD

I bet Lowell will trade ya....

So far we are discussing a pre-war gun with new barrels in 1964 almost certainly not by the maker. At that date, I would not be surprised if the barrels simply had the original rib relayed as that was more or less the custom for various reasons.

All that is important, but not as important as current condition including proof status.

Hey maybe I have not been in tune. All this talk about "is it still in proof", how can you tell? What I know is it measured at 729, and had like 27 and 28 wall thickness. Is there someting I am missing? From what I can see there is no alterations.
As to year of being built I think it was dated around 1914. So when did Atkin Grant and Lang take ownership of Hussey.
And it is an Imperial Ejector.

In 1964, yes, Hussey was still a part of the collection of businesses that Grant & Lang succeeded to over the years (Grant & Lang succeeded to the Hussey business in 1930). AGL ceased to trade in 1980 and the names were sold off. When Cyril Adams bought Atkin Grant & Lang in the early '80s, it's my understanding that he bought only those names, as he did not want Lancaster, Watson Brothers, etc. I may be remembering wrong, but I don't think he ever owned the rights to the Hussey name. Cyril sold AGL to the current owner, Ken Duglan, in the late '90s.

I don't think AGL had anything to do with these barrels.

PALUNC, when the barrels of a nice London best are finally worn out or irreparably damaged, the owner is in a very tough spot. Let me give you an example.

A good friend had a nice Holland .500/.465 double rifle. It blew up. Stock, action and fore-end were fine, but the barrels toast. To preserve the most value, you have it rebarreled by the maker. Holland wanted 18,000 GBP, $35,000 at the time. He could have had it done by other makers in London or Birmingham, folks capable of a very high standard of work, for half that and had a lovely, superb shooter - that would have been worth only slightly more than the cost of the new barrels.

It's been that way for living memory. The barrels are either by the maker or not. It has a big impact on value, and the trade knows it. That's why top, West End London makers can get full rate card plus for such work on best guns of their own make. No free lunches - you either pay for the maker's work, or save a lot of money and take the value hit on the nose. Your guy decided that he only wanted to pay for a nice shooter that fit his needs back in '64, and that's what it remains today - a really beautiful shooter. A gun like this...why not just keep it and use it that way?



Be realistic. Say you priced it at $6,950. I would direct any friends looking for one to George L.'s Hussey instead, and why not? It has more recent replacement barrels by the maker, plus the original barrels sleeved by the maker, asking $6,950. I think you get the idea.

For the record, I doubt anyone here that actually knows British guns thought that you were trying to be anything but honest. Unfortunately, I think the circumstances have pulled you along the learning curve in a way that was unexpected and, perhaps, less than pleasant. Don't let it bother you. Sincerely, best of luck with your sale. It's a beautiful gun.

Nitro that's what I've been trying to tell him for a week now; keep it, its a beautiful gun and a great, well balanced shooter!!!

400 nitro-"For the record, I doubt anyone here that actually knows British guns thought that you were trying to be anything but honest. Unfortunately, I think the circumstances have pulled you along the learning curve in a way that was unexpected and, perhaps, less than pleasant. Don't let it bother you. Sincerely, best of luck with your sale. It's a beautiful gun."



Lots of good advice on here but by far the best was 400 nitro last post,perfect !
Mike,you have a really nice Hussey,it now fits you and you know a great deal about it.If I where you I would keep the Hussey,your not going to get enought out of it,mostly due to the barrels,to make it a financial "foundation" for a Purdey.

If you still want a Purdey put a little more money and buy one,one without pits in barrels or other warts that will take the value you down when you go to sell it.

I have never seen the Hussey Imperial model without the "Imperial" name on it. Do I understand the gun in question does not have that name ?

Mmmmmm --- I hope I didn't somehow offend you. There is a lot of research in these numbers.

You have a very nice gun. Unfortunately, it may not value or price as you hoped; sorry for that. If you continue to dabble in Brit guns and this is the worst thing that ever happens to you, well, you will have done very well, indeed. There are a lot of folks who have spent a lot more to get a lot less.

A Stirlingworth, you say? NOooooooo, several maybe, unless, of course, it was an absolute pristine, tricked out prize.

Your gun can hold its head up in any shooting crowd. Period!! It is likely to last for several more generations, with minor, periodic repairs. If, however, you need a BV1 name gun to be satisfied, then start a war chest right now. Plan on $20,000. Never take your eyes off the goal and buy no more guns until you have sufficient money in the war chest to buy what you want. By the time you have sufficient money saved, you will probably be able to truly decide if the Hussey is a keeper or can fill the last leg towards a BV1 gun. Many people find that the quest is the most fun.

Good luck with this thing.

I'm not sure $20k buys much of a BV1 gun these days. . .

At that price it will be well worn and re-done, most likely. You won't get a nice crisp Purdey.

You might do well to set your war chest higher.

Curl

I did a search,the guy "kdross" was the one a year ago who was trying to find a nice Purdey for around 20k and bought and sent back,after inspection from gunsmith a few of them.Here is a link to one he asked about;
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...=true#Post88989

You can look through his past posts and see the problems with he guns he found in that range.He has not posted in while so no clue if he ever found one.

I suspect 30k might find one without issues but its going to take some looking,then again that half the fun,no?

The best investment at this time is in books and lots of them. Start with Akehurst and don't stop till you are past Thomas. There is a world of info. out there you need to know before you can responsibly spend 20k or more.

The best investment at this time is in books and lots of them. Start with Akehurst and don't stop till you are past Thomas. There is a world of info. out there you need to know before you can responsibly spend 20k or more.

$20K will buy you a "significantly used" Purdey/H&H/Boss/Woodward. "Slightly used" is $30K. A $20K BV1 gun may have a few small warts, but is reasonably economically fixable. The catch is that you have to buy a gun worth $20K, and not every gun priced at $20K is a $20K gun.

Great thread! I can only wish now that I had had as much education as is available for free in this thread before I purchased my first British shotgun. It would have saved me some significant bucks..........probably enough to have bought a couple more very nice guns over the years. Thanks guys!

PS I'm still not sure that the original poster understands exactly what "in proof" means. No put down intended but it is very important to have that concept well in mind.

By the way, the guy looking for the Purdey for $20,000 had a bunch of guns sent to him.

They all came from top dealers and every seller assured him that these Purdeys were in great shape.

Upon inspection, they all had major issues.

Buyer beware.

OWD

The gunning world isn't what it use to be - your Hussey might be the best gun on a odd day on the moors. Those sports are now shooting Spanish knock-offs and Brownings(yuck)!
The gents with Purdeys and such are in old folks homes with drool-cups and wearing pads.

And their Purdy's bedside at the ready!

I watched a very nice Purdey Live Pigeon 12 leave Charlton Hall Auctions unsold last December with a high bid of $18,000. I believe that Dig & I agreed that the gun had no issues.

Best Regards, George

A bit of reading (Birmingham Proof House site is good) will help explain "proof" and "in proof" better than one post but here goes:

A gun is in proof if its chambers are, its bore is no more than a few thousandths different from, and it gauge is as indicated by the information given in the proof marks on the barrel flats.

The chambers should measure 2.5 inches based on what you have described but not been able to show in a picture.

Look at GJZ's photo to get an idea, confirm what you see on yours, etc. (Like his 12 over a "c" in the diamond explains the gauge at proofing.)

Opening up chokes will also take a gun out of proof as I read the provisions.

If done in the UK, sleeved barrels are so marked at the time of proof.

This gives you an idea why evaluating proof and current condition is important.

Having a gunsmith schooled in English bests look at your gun, take the appropriate measurements and give them to you would be a tremendous help in selling your piece. For example, such a professional would have been able to tell you that the barrels were replacements.

That isn't a bad site to read. Probably the best coverage for British proof of shotguns is in the back of Brown's "British Gunmakers, Volume II". It's important to understand each mark, but that barely gets you started. When there is an issue, you won't catch the easy ones. What's most important to understand is how the collection of marks is used as a system, and what changed each time new rules of proof were promulgated. I've never really found a reference work that does that well. It takes practice. Make note of the proof marks on every English gun you pick up, and see if you understand them without the book, then check. I've never found a dealer that was really expert on them.

Once you get the hang of it, you'll understand that sometimes marks that are missing tell you what you need to know better than the marks that are there. With this Hussey, the question was re-proof of original barrels, or new proof of new barrels. The Re-proof Mark was absent, which rules out re-proof of original barrels.

British proof is actually pretty simple, but if you need a book, you need help, and it's important to understand the marks on the gun before you buy.

I concur on Brown's book. Dig H. touches on the topic as well. Time spent with someone schooled in this would be invaluable at a gun show or shop to point out the nuances you mention. It's all in the proof information and any deviations once the bores are determined to be sound.