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Posted By: mark Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 12:33 PM
What is the proper color for a Charles Daly damascus barrel?
Posted By: Doug Mann Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 12:49 PM
Mark, to the best of my limited knowledge the hammerless Dalys were done in black & white. At least that's what mine were.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 12:50 PM
Here are some examples Mark; both browned and 'black & white.'
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20948056
I've never seen a Manufacture Extra/Herringbone barrel other than in 'black & white.' Joe Wood's Toncin barrel's gold appearance is the lighting-it is also 'black & white.'



http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20948056
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 01:07 PM
Black and white is correct. Original B/W Daly finishes will fade and slightly brown over time, but this is very different from the vibrant browns found in many traditional British damascus guns for example.

Ken
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 01:30 PM
Ken: I could certainly be wrong, but believe this is original browning
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 02:25 PM
Rev, I would guess the barrel finishes you picture are original, but have faded to brownish over the years as Ken mentions above. The original , well preserved , finishes I have seen on composite barrels were black and white for Daly guns from Lindner. I cannot say for sure how that holds for other Daly sources.
Posted By: eightbore Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 06:20 PM
High condition Daly/Lindner guns I have owned and seen have been as black and white as original Parkers.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 06:28 PM
My Daly, which Revdocdrew shows above, is B&W but the black has turned slightly brownish.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 08:37 PM
The example I have of somewhat high condition has black and white while another has turned to a plum or light brown.

Drew: those initials looks to be "R.S". Can you confirm and what receiver do they belong to?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 09:41 PM
This one? Not sure where I got that Raimey It might be J.B. Patton's

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/09 10:45 PM
I don't see the "832" so I think it to be a different set.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: J.B.Patton Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/12/09 11:41 AM
The barrels numbered 632 belong to a 16g (Charles Daly Fine Damascas Featherweight on rib)

and the barrels with the RS and Lindner marks are from a 10 ga top lever hammer gun.

I believe they are both still all original and if they were black / white when manufactured, they faded to brown many years ago.
best regards,
JBP
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/12/09 11:58 AM
The barrel maker and assembly folk are almost without a doubt the same so the color must have been another option. As always with Germanic longarms, never attempt to apply a universal statement that all examples were a certain configuration.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/12/09 12:42 PM
I agree with Raimey. While almost all of the original Prussian Daly damascus finishes I have seen have been black and white, I am sure there were exceptions. Blanket statements using the words "always" and "never" don't apply to German gunmaking.

Ken
Posted By: John Mann Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 01:33 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
The barrel maker and assembly folk are almost without a doubt the same so the color must have been another option. As always with Germanic longarms, never attempt to apply a universal statement that all examples were a certain configuration.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse



With all due respect to all---I really think that Black and White was the standard and seldom, if ever, was a Lindner gun finished any other way. My source is Georg Schilling, a good friend in Suhl, that knows from his family history and interest in metal colors.
I might also mention that of the 13 Lindner Dalys that I have own/owned, none were otherwise.
Granted that we can tell the difference in an English Brown and White (even after 100 years) and any Black and White that is turning, the original B & W color is there.
Best,
John
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 11:54 AM
I believe mine has original finish - it's B&W fading to a slight brown.



Curl
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 01:13 PM
CptCurl:

Would you give us the initials, if any, on the underside of the tubes?

Mr. Mann:

I invite opposing opinions and different points of view as well as information from any credible source due to the fact that the end product will be of much better quality. I do however, like your use of the term "seldom" as even you might give a nod to a variation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 04:16 PM
I am away from the full data base right now, but from what I have in front of me I can report that the following initials have been reported on Prussian Dalys:

R.S. *
E.E. *
K.S. *
J.W *
L.G (or E.G)
A.B. *
M.S.
L.E.
A.S.


(Please remember that because much of this data has been reported and not personally observed, I cannot vouch for the accuracy. Also remember that due to the nature of the stamping process, some of the stamps are hard to read - what one person reports as "A.S.", may actually be "A.B". I've noted with an asterisk above those initials that have been reported more than once.)

Ken
Posted By: gunner000 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 05:04 PM
Hi, I have a Charles Daly 10 ga with Jones underlever with "RS" initials on the left bbl near the rib and no Linder markings. Also in the frame slot are the initials "AH" or "AR." I can't remember how to post a photo but I posted them here a year ago I believe. The SN is 1092.

I also have a 12 ga toplever gun SN 16000 range that has "AK" or "AR" or "AB" on the left bbl near the rib. It also has a partial "13" stamp on the bottom of the bbl that I take to be the rough bore before finishing. The bottom of the right bbl near the rib has what looks to be a "C" or "G" stamp.
The bbl flats are also stamped with what may be an "RL" or "AL" or "HL"
Erick
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 10:08 PM
Ken, you might add the initials "E. SCH" to your list. They are on my 16 gauge Diamond grade, serial #3624.

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/13/09 11:49 PM
Joe, can you give a date range for the Diamond grade?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/14/09 12:01 AM
Best guess we have is about 1890-1892, just before Germany required proofing.



Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/14/09 03:11 AM
One example I have is about a dozen prior to yours at serial number #3612 with the initials "W.M.".

Ken:

The initials "L.E." must be in error in some fashion as I can't pair that with anyone. I assume it might be difficult, but can you place the initials in chronological order say in 3 groups of pre-1893, pre-WWI and post WWI?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/14/09 10:31 AM
Can someone tell me the significance of the initials?

My Daly is all the way on the back row of my gun safe. It will take some digging to get it out and look for initials. I'll try to do it in the next several days. Damn these gun boxes! Guess I should weed a few out.

Curl
Posted By: John Mann Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/16/09 01:56 AM
ellenbr:
You, in my estimation, are a gentleman and a scholar of inordinate perception.
I am pleased to be on the same BBS with a man of your qualities.
Best regards,
John
Posted By: 775 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/16/09 02:05 AM
Joe Wood.

Speechless.

Best,
Mark
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 12:03 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
CptCurl:

Would you give us the initials, if any, on the underside of the tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


The initials on my Daly are K.S.



Now will somebody enlighten my ignorance of whose initials these might be or what other significance there may be to them?

Thanks,
Curl
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 02:56 PM
CptCurl:

I missed your 1st question on the subject but the initials note the person, or entity, who either drew/formed/finished the tubes or fitted or finished the joined tubes to the action. It appears that the pre-1900, or pre-mechanzied period, initials seem to indicate a craftsman who was somehow connected to a forge or metal working facility. But I think many of the set may have been lost in the gun making event. Helmut Schlegelmilch's maternal grandfather, Gebhard Helmuthhauser a Buchsenmachermeister employed by G.C./Carl Gottleib Haenel, was still working in the early to mid 1920s at an advanced age when Helmut was an apprentice to Haenel. Haenel had some sort of contract with Carl Wilhelm Aydt(target arms designer) and Helmuthhauser was doing most of the work with Herrn Aydt in a seperate room inspecting the final product, as well as firing it, and thus giving his stamp of approval. I really haven't seen much info regarding Gebhard Helmuthhauser and I suspect there were many other craftsmen who were in the same position and are sort of anoymonus.

But getting back to "K.S." it looks to have been for K. Schlegelmilch of H. & K. Schlegelmilch, a late 19th century and early 20th century firm. I don't think I know his first name yet. Like Schiwy, Forester, Geyger, Lindner sourced his components from makers in Suhl and possibly put the finishing touches on the longarm. Or once he had the process going, he would oversee that the finsihed product met his standards, much like Herrn Aydt but at his on shop. Some say the initial search is a rabbit chase and it may very well be. Schilling is a slight possiblity but for now I don't know of a Schilling fella with the first initial of "K.". And I expect to see other marks referencing the Schilling forge when a Schilling tube maker was involved.

Nice image of the lower rib.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: CptCurl Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 03:36 PM
Raimey,

Thanks for the explanation. Interesting stuff, these antiques.

As an aside, I am no Colt collector, but I have heard conversations among those who are in which they wax eloquent over initials stamped on hidden places, etc.

Also, our own "Crossed Chisels" can get excited about initials that appear in various locations on fine English guns.

And of course, the Parker people go on and on about such details!

I suppose the Prussians should have their day in the sun also.

I took that photo, among others, just this morning in response to an inquiry from "across the pond". It now appears my Lindner Daly will soon travel back east as far as England to endear itself to a new owner.

Best,
Curl
Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 10:55 PM
Low resolution pictures, but the only ones I have. I never tried to make out the initials so I'll leave it up to the experts here.



Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 11:11 PM
Utah:

Is it a double rife? Also are the initials "L.P." stamped on the left tube near lower rib just ahead of the flats?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 11:30 PM
Raimey,

It is not my shotgun and I have moved away from the owner in Utah so no additional pictures are available.

It is a .410

Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 11:32 PM
I should restate that. I have additional pictures, but I no longer have access to the gun for more or higher resolution.

Clair Kofoed wrote an article about this gun for SSM and may have some hi-rez pictures of it.
Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/20/09 11:35 PM
This is the last of the pictures that I have of the flats.



Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/21/09 12:06 AM
ah, 10,4mm, 0.410": why didn't I think of that. I assume those are as rare as hens teeth? Looks like ole Richard Schuler and there's a faint stamp of what looks to be Krupp. Is it a post WWI? There still appears to be a set of initials near the rib but I can't make it out for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/21/09 12:29 AM
Raimey,

I don't know much about it. I just asked the right guy if he had any nice Side by Sides in the back. I posted here and Clair followed up.

It was pawned in the mid '50's to the same shop that still owns it. It came in with a busted buttstock so it has been restocked. Story has it that the 'pawn'y' was a Wesson, and related to the Wesson's of S&W. I tried to buy it and was rejected. As I understand, Clair also made an offer and was rejected. I imagine it won't come up on the market any time soon. Or it's been sold already. Hell, I don't know, I moved a long way away.

The owner is well aware of its rarity and value. He told me that for the money it would bring, he has a nice shogun so why sell. He used to shoot skeet with it occassionally. I don't know if he still does.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/23/09 03:28 AM
Originally Posted By: Ken Georgi
I am away from the full data base right now, but from what I have in front of me I can report that the following initials have been reported on Prussian Dalys:

R.S. *
E.E. *
K.S. *
J.W *
L.G (or E.G)
A.B. *
M.S.
L.E.
A.S.


(Please remember that because much of this data has been reported and not personally observed, I cannot vouch for the accuracy. Also remember that due to the nature of the stamping process, some of the stamps are hard to read - what one person reports as "A.S.", may actually be "A.B". I've noted with an asterisk above those initials that have been reported more than once.)

Ken




Here's a work in progress with best guesses for now. Most of the craftsmen have an association with some barrel making aspect or metal working:

R.S. – Robert Schlegelmilch pre-WWI and Richard Schuler or Robert Schilling

E.E. – Emil Eckholdt beginning in 1876, at some point used “EES”- Emil Eckholdt Suhl

K.S. Karl(?) Schlegelmilch, factory owner or something of the like. Some of the klan made bicycles

J.W. – Julius Will of Oskar Will commencing in 1844 with metalworking-
Venuswaffenwerk, Post WWII there was a J. Wilhelm and an O. Wilhelm both which were barrel makers

L.G. – Louis Graner of Zella-Mehlis very little info or connection to metal working
Listed for time period and initials


A.B. – August Blatt was definitely active circa WWI and was in full swing at WWII
Barrel maker who at some point used “ABA” – August Blatt Albrechts

M.S. – Moritz Schilling or Max Schilling(Fabrikant/manufacture in 1907),

L.E. – ????

A.S. – Alfred Schilling(1876-1947) Zella St. Blasii son of Veit Schilling(1839-1898)


W.M. – Wilhelm Moritz of Zella St. Blasii beginning in 1869, a stamp of crossed hammer or tools with a bishop atop with the W & M intergrated is attributed to him

I don’t think the following would apply:
Wilhelm Mauser expired in 1882 and Waffenfabrik Mauser formed in 1884
Waffenwerke Mehlis – Valentin Bader & father Louis Bader

Well, with the early 1890s date of "E.Sch." that might just negate my theory of "Max Sch." for Max Schleenstein and "E.Sch." for Ernst Schleenstein unless there was a father or uncle with the name E. Schleestein during an earlier period. And the only other clan that I know of for now with a similar combination of names would be the Schneider folk of Zella St. Blasii being Eduard Schneider during the 1890s and Max Schneider from the
1920s onward

I'm sure there are some unidentified craftsmen that we may never now their names.
I would also expect to see some of the following:

August Ansorg, pre-WWI to WWII
Wilhelm Richards Jaeger – circa 1910 to WWII
Kelber – Louis or Wilhelm – post WWI
Klett – F.A. or Heinrich Christoph
Reitz & Recknagel(1867) - Someone from this group

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PeteM Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/23/09 11:22 AM
Raimey,

That is a very impressive list. I am glad to see that you posted so that others can help augment or verify it.

Pete
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/23/09 11:28 AM
Raimey,

You've been busy! I should have some time to dig in the database and pull together information on the respective years when Dalys with the initials listed above were produced. My apologies for the delays - work and family life have been a little crazy lately.

One comment on the "E.SCH" initials. Unlike the two letter initial combinations listed above these initials are NOT found just ahead of the barrel flats but rather on the action. The mark can be faint and you have to look carefully into the space beneath lump, but the initials are often found there encased in an oval. My assumption was that this was the mark of the actioner.

More to follow - superior work Raimey,

Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/23/09 01:06 PM
Thanks. I had most of the information with the exception of an actual list of initials for Lindner longarms. Regarding the Schillings & Schlegelmilch klans, recently I was attempting to track what they did. But there were at least two different sets of Schlegelmilchs in the porcelain business in the 1880-1890 period when the bicycle craze began and one was Reinhold Schelgelmilch who used a "R.S." mark on his wares. And then on the weapons side there was Reinhard Schelgelmilch who was a gunsmith in the post WWI-WWII period. So when you look in the listings and directories one generally sees "Fabrikant" or "Fabrikbesitzer"(factory owner) for say Karl Schlegelmilch and Gebhard Schilling for example. Now this puzzle is all time dependent and I fear unless some subcontractor info surfaces, it may indeed be a rabbit chase. At the turn of the 20th Century, everyone knew everyone and why was there a need to exactly chronicle the tasks performed, and by whom, and they just knew that someone 100 years later would not be going over the info with a fine toothed comb.

Ken you are correct on the odd "E.SCH" stamp and I at first thought it to be a post WWI/tube mechanization type stamp. I still lean toward the Schleenstein folk because of their assocation with Krieghoff.

I know that it is a task and possibly a labour of love, but if the initials were arranged or grouped in chronological order it provide another equation for the lot. Also has any tube stamp info been collected on the Golcher/U.S. of A.(or others of Germanic origin) longarms similar to a Lindner?

I would be very suprised if one example didn't have a gothic or script "J" stamp on the tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/23/09 02:47 PM
Raimey and Ken, thanks for the great info.

I have-------

T. Golcher hammer gun , ca.1890, #2403, K.S.---Lindner marks
C. Overbaugh hammer gun, ca. late 1880s, #3744, R.S.--Lindner marks
Daly hammerless, 11,574, dated 8/24, M.S.---- no Lindner marks

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/24/09 12:26 AM
A 1932 Daly example at Cabelas, http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 (3rd colum & 3rd row), with what looks to be the initials of "E.K." which would be for Emil Klett. Then there's the initials "F.A." which is somewhat odd and perplexing as in the 1930s it could be for the following:
Franz Adamy(they might have had plenty of work)
Fritz Albrecht
Franz Amthor(barrel maker)
Fridolin Anschutz(I don't think it was him). And then the letters "Sl" who was probably the tube source. With the "Made in Prussia" stamp, I'm curious if the frame was sourced from old stock.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PeteM Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/24/09 12:47 AM
SL was a trade mark for "Syndicat Liégeois pour la fabrication des armes de guerre" ( Liege Syndicate for the production of arms of war) . It was established in 1884. As the name implies it was not a true company was composed of several makers:
Jules ANCION & Co.
DRESSE, LALOUX & Co.
Auguste FRANCOTTE.
PIRLOT & FRESART

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20syndicat%20liegeois%20gb.htm

Pete
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/24/09 01:27 AM
Thanks Peter. Revdocdrew had brought that to my attention before. I've seen pattern welded tubes with the same stamp. I would have guessed the tubes to have been sourced locally. So is it a 3 cornered deal with Krupp/Syndicat Liégeois pour la fabrication des armes de guerre/Daly contractor/source? Have you seen any other "Sl" tubes with Krupp steel?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PeteM Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/24/09 03:12 PM
Raimey,

I can not recall seeing them.

Pete
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 03:34 PM
Peter:

Now that I am looking for the "Sl" mark it seems to surface quite often. The longarm of question with the "Sl" mark is a double rifle in 7X57mm proved in March of 1925 and is the subject of an article in "DGJ" Spring 2000, Vol. 11, Issue 1, page 144. It is a O/U double rifle with the stamp of O. Geyger's of Berlin. I'm relatively sure it was sourced from Suhl and maybe from one of the Schulers. Others longarms in the article have Boehler tubes and I expect to see Roechling and others. Not to degrade the Liege based "Sl" by any means, but would it have sold as well in Berlin or do you think it was the maker or firearms merchant that made the difference and not the tube type? If "Sl" is not for the Liege conglomerate, there are very, very few German options.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PeteM Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 03:51 PM
Raimey,

I think the sportsman of the day only cared about style/price/name on the gun. I doubt many understood the trade marks any better than sportsman do today.

I believe there was a huge international market in place. Makers sourced tubes, actions, guns from where it made sense and profit at the moment. A 1910 Beretta catalog, in Italian, I own is loaded with WC Scott guns. By the mid 1920's they did not have any WC Scott guns in their catalog. In the early 1930's they had barrels from Belgium and England. By 1939 they only had barrels by Krupp.

The trouble with trade marks is that they were only registered in a specific country for a specific time frame. Everything has to match for them to make sense. I could have suggested that HS was Henri Sauveur & Sons, but time frame did not fit. This is especially true with just initials.

Pete
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 04:02 PM
Thanks PeteM. But without a doubt it is the same mark on all examples and it holds that same position on the tube.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 09:06 PM
Below is a chart that correlates the Prussian Daly barrel initials with the (approximate) dates of manufacture.

Initials Make of Gun Maker Mark Date Range Serial #s
E.W. Daly None circa - 1876 7

L.G or E.G Daly None circa - 1878 105

K.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1880 - 1885 2015, 2370, 2463, 2568

A.B Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1885 - 1890 2706, 3551, 3665

E.E. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1886 2929, 3044

R.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1888 3342

J.W. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1890 - 1892 3646, 3994

J.W. Daly Lindner (HAL) circa 1892 - 1900 264, 439, 676, 766, 792

R.S. Daly Lindner (HAL) circa 1892 - 1915 270, 300, 361, 380, 458, 584, 586, 650, 1092, 1109, 1560, 1586, 1650, 1655, 1730, 2048, 2138, 2158, 2362, 242X, 2437, 2463, 2479

M.S. or S.W. Daly Unknown Aug 1924 11574
[img]http://[/img]



I'll try and clean up the table in a bit - it is a little hard to read in its current format.

Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 09:58 PM
Nice effort Ken. The last one with "M.S." is probably Moritz Schilling and from Schuler. The V.C. Schilling example on another current thread is interesting in that it has the Lindner type forend and from what I can gather had H. Klett(forge/tube maker) and J. Heinrich Schilling being subs. So with that said are there any other indications that the typical forend latch as caught with a sharp eye by Mr. Hallquist on the V.C.S. example was specifically sourced from Schilling? I could very easily be wrong but either H. Schilling was involved with the heirs of V.C. Schilling or V.C. Schilling sourced the longarm from J. Heinrich Schilling. Also was H.A. Lindner the origin of where his stamp of approval would be as well as the contractor/filer/fitter stamp would be?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Phail Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 11:09 PM
Have "C F Schilling St Louis Laminated Steel"-on rib 10 Ga
Jones underlever w/hinged forend. "A.S." underside Left BBL
"AH" in action well. "953" on Right BBL flat and Right action flat. No other markings except name on locks. High Grade
Bernard type BBLS-looks German

Charles Green -Rochester NY (1876-79) "A.S." on Left BBl
no other BBL or action flat markings.Fine Damascus BBLS.
Green patent action

Will have to chech other guns
Daryl and Bob -check your Green's
Reguards
Bill
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/09 11:19 PM
Yeah, I've seen a F. Schilling referenced that you have and have wondered how close of an association there was to Germany.

I'm working on compiling a list for Suhl Gunmakers in 1865(it may have been an event/exhibit in Koln) and have a couple so far:
Meffert
St. G. Rosch
Val. Chr. Schilling
Schuler(no initials or first name but I assume August and
for sure everyone in Suhl in 1865 knew Schuler's first name)
Schmitz & Habermann
Christoph/Christian Sturm - he & his son continued to make revolvers to at least WWI.
Thieme & Schlegelmilch(Louis was directing/working at Spandau)

One I haven't seen before was Octave Thierry of Luttich.

A sort of off the topic question, but does anyone know the first name of Sempert of Sempert & Krieghoff? I think was German and his first name began with an I or a J.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 12:42 AM
McPhail:

Does either of the doubles you mentioned have the wide/Lindner type forend lug? If indeed of German origin the "A.S." would have been for August Schuler.

Frederick Schilling of St. Louis worked with or joined Johann Blickensdorfer in the late 1860s and I think they parted ways in the mid 1870s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Phail Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 01:10 AM
Raimey
The Schilling I have is C F (Charles F). Sellars has him in St Louis 1875-79 then St Paul 1879-1889. This is not Frederick.
This as a Pinned forend like a M/L.
My T Golcher # 1120 has the wide forend lug but no other BBl
marks. The Green has "normal" forend lug.
None of these guns has Linder Marks
Reguards
Bill
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 01:15 AM
McPhail:

If I am not mistaken, Charles Fredrich Schilling of 12 3rd Street, St. Louis was the son of Fredrich Schilling, who looks to have left St. Louis in the mid to late 1870s and headed to Columbus, Ohio.

Any marks on the watertable of the T. Golcher #1120?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Phail Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 11:56 AM
Only water table marks on the T Golcher are "1120"
Reguards
Bill
Posted By: Jon S Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 12:44 PM
Here are some more Lindner Daly data.

#1366, Hammergun, crown, "AS"

#3494, Crown, Diamond, "LE"

#1308, HAL, 185, blurred, cannot decypher.

#1866, HAL, Diamond, "RS"

#1440, HAL, 185, "RS"

#1550, HAL, Diamond, "RS" THIS GUN IS MARKED "1" OF A PAIR. ANYONE KNOW THE WHEREABOUTS OF #1551?

Best,
Jon
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 01:33 PM
Bill, Charles Green #690 has only the Dec. 7,1875 , patent mark. This is not a conversion and weighs less than 6# in 12 ga. Locks are British.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 03:53 PM
Interesting article on a H.A. Lindner sourced double possibly finished by E.C. Schmidt of Boston in the current GGCA publication No. 39, Spring 2009 as well as a skewed Greener crossbolt in Lindner #1574.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/26/09 04:13 PM
I've found these craftsmen to be active in Suhl circa 1840:

Funk & Sohne
Jung & Sohne
Sauer & Sohn
Val. Chrst. Schilling - I'm curious if his son was named
Val. Christoph Schilling?
Sturm
Buttner
Kummer
Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch with a steel drop hammer?
Nic. Gruber
Ernst & Georg Gruber
Heinrich Schilling
Heinrich Schilling jun.(Junior?)
Caspar Schilling
Stephan Schilling
Egidius Schilling
Eckhardt
Stephan Greifeldt
Stephan Chrst. Greifeldt
George Greifeldt
Gruber
Samuel Jung
Klett
Kolb
Conr.(?) Schuler
Muller
Schmidt
Gebruder Spangenberg
Bornmuller & Sohne
Keller & Schneider
Wilhelm Zschock
Bachof & Barthels
Ortlepp
Fredrich Zschock
Muller & Dohler

With Agents
Bornmuller, Opitz & Thieme

So Thieme & Schlegelmilch hadn't combined Thieme's marketing capability & Schlegelmilch's forge/hammer. This list also confirms that the makers used the same first names for their decendents due to the fact that one will see the same names in the post 1900 listings. For now this compounds the task of identification.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/07/09 05:28 PM
Initials Make of Gun Maker Mark Date Range Serial #s
E.W. Daly None circa - 1876 7 (E. Werner, more than likely related to Otto A. Werner, a gunmaking company listed up to 1900. The Werner klan had a long established history in gunmaking having approx. 10 folks listed as having some function in the gunmaking trade in the mid 1800s. Georg Gottlieb Werner owned a weapons forge while Jacob Werner was into forging tubes/pipes along with Adam, Gottgetreu, Johann Michael as master gunmakers.)

L.G or E.G Daly None circa - 1878 105(I haven’t found too many variable here but I’m leaning toward the S. August Grüber folk as about 30 years prior to this stamp August was listed as a master tube/pipe maker with a pipe/tube making hammer. Greifeld is a possibility and Greifelt(I realize a slight spelling difference) & Company wasn’t formed by Friedrich Greifelt and Emil Schlegelmilch(also owned Rosch, Steyer & Company probably early on with Stephan Gabriel Rosch, master gunmaker) until 1885. Ernst Grüber is my best guess for the “E.G.” stamp but Eisenwerke Gaggenau of Baden began producing metal wares in 1879 but for now I don’t think the “E.G.” stamp would be for a firm.)

K.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1880 - 1885 2015, 2370, 2463, 2568(I’m still leaning toward a K. (“Karl”) Schlegelmilch of Heinrich & K. Schleglemilch or Heinrich K. Schlegelmilch, gunmaker. Heinrich Schlegelmilch is listed in the mid 1800s as a borer/driller, while Caspar was a master tube/pipe maker and Stephan Christian Schlegelmilch being a master borer/driller. Seeing that the name conjures up gunmaking, the town of Suhl also a symbol of gunmaking and that the Schlegelmilch family could by themselves produce a finished weapons product with Fredrich Wilhelm Schlegelmilch being just one of the master gunmakers; I therefore, assume that the boring/drilling was an integral part of gunmaking or finished tubes were a subset of the boring/drilling trade. Thieme(Adolph) & Schlegelmilch(Ernst was at the helm circa 1900) was probably involved. Schilling is still a possibility but the Ockam’s Razor principle is leading me to Schlegelmilch.)

A.B Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1885 - 1890 2706, 3551, 3665(August Blatt of Albrechts is a strong candidate along with Alex. Barthelmes of Zella-Mehlis, who was probably a decendent of Leopold Barthelmes(ss), a master gunmaker of Zella in the mid 1800s. Emil Barthelmes founded a gunmaking business in Zella in 1854.)

E.E. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1886 2929, 3044(Emil Eckoldt founded his business in 1876 and by circa 1930 Robert Schilling was involved with Emil(probably Junior) and Hugo)

R.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1888 3342(Robert Schlegelmilch? Or Richard Schüler?)

J.W. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1890 - 1892 3646, 3994(Julius Will, younger brother of Oscar Will who had a founding date of 1844 regarding metalworking and circa 1900 was peddling Lindner or Lindner type action doubles under Venuswaffenwerk)

J.W. Daly Lindner (HAL) circa 1892 - 1900 264, 439, 676, 766, 792(same as above)

R.S. Daly Lindner (HAL) circa 1892 - 1915 270, 300, 361, 380, 458, 584, 586, 650, 1092, 1109, 1560, 1586, 1650, 1655, 1730, 2048, 2138, 2158, 2362, 242X, 2437, 2463, 2479(I’m still going to hold with Robert Schlegelmilch)

M.S. or S.W. Daly Unknown Aug 1924 11574(Moritz Schilling???)

#1366, Hammergun, crown, "AS"(Alfred Schilling was born in 1876 so I’m going to assume he was too young. I had earlier thought August Gottlieb Schüler/August Schüler-1850, who was more than likely a relative of Friedrich Wilhelm or Christian Friedrich Schüler who had a manufacturing and fabrication business in 1835. I may have mixed August & Friedrich, but I think I’ve seen it posted that August dates back to 1835 and that is incorrect. Oscar & August Schüler formed a business in 1880 which was merged with or absorbed by August Schüler circa 1900. Oscar Schüler, or his heirs and assigns, looks to have migrated toward Richard Schüler to form a pre-WWI firm. Now on to who I really think the “A.S.” is stamped for: Albert Stobbe who began in 1865 and was operated by the 1930s by his widow Emilie Stobbe and son Rudolf Stobbe(educated guess).)

#3494, Crown, Diamond, "LE"(ah, the “E”s. I’ll guess the first name to be Louis or Ludwig and the last name to possibly be connected to one of the following:
W. Ebert
Richard Eck
Otto Eck
Emil Eckoldt
August Eckstein
Gottlieb Edhardt(maybe a different spelling for Eckholdt???)
Ant. Ehmann
August Endter
Ed. Essiger
Carl Eyring.

And there were the Eckebrecht brothers, Heinrich & Johann, who owned Heinrich Scherping circa 1897.


#1308, HAL, 185, blurred, cannot decypher.

#1866, HAL, Diamond, "RS"(Robert Schlegelmilch)

#1440, HAL, 185, "RS"(Robert Schlegelmilch)

#1550, HAL, Diamond, "RS" THIS GUN IS MARKED "1" OF A PAIR. ANYONE KNOW THE WHEREABOUTS OF #1551?(Robert Schlegelmilch)

I have one in the 3300 range with “W.M.” which was more than likely for Wilhelm Moritz who began in 1869. I can’t remember exactly which maker, but I think he was involved with or purchased one of the gunmaking firms in Suhl.)

On many of the German tubes one will run across the stamp of a Gothic “J”( J), especially on Sauer longarms and I think it to be for the Jäger klan with Johann Georg Jäger having a pipe/tube forge in the mid 1800s and George junior and Valtin begin master borers. Now if could have been the Jung gunmaking folk, but most of them were master gunmakers without an emphasis in pipe/tube making.

But of all the listings I haven’t determined what trade is defined by “Könglich Gewehr-Revisor” (rifle inspector???) and the following had the title:

Gottlieb Bäftlein
Franz Bräutigam
Gottfried Diz(?)el
Ernst Hopfe
Caspar August Gottetreu Klett
Capsar Köhler
Ferdinand Nothnagel
Caspar Schaller
Melchior Schlegelmilch
Johann Friedrich Schneppe
Stephan Triebel

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/08/09 02:15 AM
For any of you folks still following this exercise in futility, from the mid to late 1800s, and possibly earlier, gun makers in the tube trade had the term "Rohr" attached to their function. So a "Rohrschleifer" would be a barrel grinder or emouleur de canons de fusil(French). While a tube finisher would be a "Polirer", a fine borer or finishing borer. The Werner and Wagner folks were big into tube making so the stamp with a last initial of a "W.", other than "J.W.", would more than likely be for either one of the Werner or Wagner klan. From the mid to late 1800s the following had the listing of "Polirer":

Gottfried Wagner
Theodor Wagner
Christian Werner

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/11/09 01:18 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I had earlier thought August Gottlieb Schüler/August Schüler-1850, who was more than likely a relative of Friedrich Wilhelm or Christian Friedrich Schüler who had a manufacturing and fabrication business in 1835. I may have mixed August & Friedrich, but I think I’ve seen it posted that August dates back to 1835 and that is incorrect. Oscar & August Schüler formed a business in 1880 which was merged with or absorbed by August Schüler circa 1900.


Let me attempt to clarify something regarding August Shüler. I’ve re-read info and GGCA Journals containing info on the firm August Shüler and in 1935 there was an advertisment noting that August Schüler had been in business for 100 years. Of course it is not possibly for the same August Schüler that we associate with German longarms to be that person and he took the reins of a company circa 1850 and the name could have been “August Schüler”(or renamed to) as he was the younger brother of Christian Friedrich Schüler who indeed did have a gunmaking business in 1835. Possibly their father or grandfather was named August Schüler and Christian Friedrich’s business was named “August Schüler” or either August Schüler took over the business and renamed it circa 1850.

Gunmakers who made their example to attain the rank of master, knew what it took to make each individual component of the example but probably only made a couple of components himself which were in his area of expertise. Then if he was a top rank maker or maker to a royal court, he might have made a longarm or some of the components. Then knowing what the end product would look like, he then formed either a temporary conglomerate, or perhaps semi-permanent one, of tube makers, frame source, lock makers, stock source, finisher and engraver. I think Ernst Steigleder, W. Forester, O. Geyger, H.A. Lindner, etc. are such examples. So, where would one source the components? Well, Suhl and Zella Saint Blasii, including Mehlis, had formed a protected craftsmen bubble by not having a government arsenal nearby, by converting to sporting arms for the most part and by embracing mechanization; therefore, the area was about the only choice. In Suhl components could be sourced from the lower rung all the way up to the most expensive due to the fact that a broad range of craftsmen were at a GC(general contractor’s)’s disposal. The GC could have been in Suhl or could have been afar. All of the aforementioned craftsmen at one time could have made a sporting piece for anyone in the world but it just was not efficient, practical or cost effective. So these craftsmen migrated from a maker, to a quality control person like Lindner, Aydt and others and possibly on to a firearms merchant having their name roll stamped on the top rib. With all that said is it possible to equate a Lindner longarm grade and initials, i.e., did Lindner source specific craftsmen for specific grades or could all sources produce any grade?

Oh and what happened to Daly's network? Well one of the high cost of WWI was the lost of mastercraftsmen and potential mastercraftsmen, as was the case with H.A. Lindner, who was left with no heirs or assigns. Charles Daly expired in 1899 and the structured weave of the network of craftsmen, general contractor and market fell apart, with WWI also disrupting the conduit of supply and demand. Then the 3rd Reich was able to burst Suhl's protective craftsmen bubble by discontinuing target competitions with true sporting arms and forcing the craftsmen to contribute mainly to the up and coming war effort.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/11/09 01:54 AM
Raimey,

SUPERIOR job on the information in the posts above - very interesting.

Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/12/09 11:07 PM
Ken:

Thanks as I'm just trying to put some info together. The situtaion wasn't any different in England. Take Purdey for example: all the components of their longarm weren't made in-house as they at the very least sourced their locks from Chilton, unless an example is say a post 1980 one.

I will admit that there is one exception as far sourcing weapons from a network of highly skilled craftsmen. That exception is WWII, which leveled the playing field literally. True there may have been some left over stock that wasn't absconded by a passer-by, but for the most part firms had to build the end product from the ground up to and including the bead sight.

The following synopsis is an attempt to add additional info to explain the demise of the coveted Lindner-Daly longarms. I, or any one else, can start a new Charles Daly or S, D & G thread if need be or desired.


April 4th, 1859 four Schoverling brothers, Hans Hermann, Johann Rudolph, Johann Wilhelm and Heindrick August Schoverling, departed Osnabruck, Germany headed to American. Hans Hermann was in the tobacco industry and I think Heindrick was also. There was a Schoverling Tobacco and/or Schoverling Company just prior to Heindrick August Schoverling and Charles Daly crossing paths which resulted in Schoverling & Daly in 1862/5?. They had several addresses but they all seem centered near 302 Broadway and 84 Duane(I believe it was/is an intersection). Charles Daly, who acquired a MA from the College of the City of New York in 1855, was front and center until a fella named Joseph Gales of North Carolina joined their ranks in 1879. Schoverling(Heindrick August), Daly(Charles) and Gales(Joseph) purchased the quarters of John P. Moore & Son’s in 1888, which was at the same time S, D&G offered a drilling by the name of Charles Daly and Manhattan(??) in 32-20, 32-40, 38-55, 40-63 & 45-70, and set up shop in Moore’s quarters. Also at the time they were somewhat global by having an outlet/shop at 65 Weaman, Street, Birmingham, England. Things progressed on at a steady pace and fortunes were made as Charles Daly took delivery of a son named Charles Howard Daly on November, 6th, 1874 in New York. By 1894 I believe he had his PHD from Yale when the joined the firm of S, D&G(Obit. Records of Yale University 1925 may provide insight), 3 years after Heindrick August Schoverling expired while on a trip to Dusseldorf, Germany where at least one of his kids stayed and didn’t make the return trip. So Charles Howard Daly joined at an optimum time and then his father Charles Daly expired on January 11th, 1899(Born October 12, 1839 - there was a justice of attorney named Charles P. Daly who also expired in 1899):

Charles Daly – NY Times – January 14, 1899
“Charles Daly, senior member of the firm of Schoverling, Daly & Gales, died Jan. 11 at his home, in Summit, N.J. He had been at his office in New York until the usual hour, and spent the evening at home with his family. About 11 o’clock at(an) attack of apoplexy proved almost immediately fatal. Mr. Daly began his business career with the old firm of Tuffts & Colley about 1858, and afterward with Messrs. Sargent & Co., and later with Messrs. H. Boker & Co., whom he left in 1865 to join Mr.(Heindrick August) Schoverling. Mr. Daly was one of the incorporators and for many years President of the Marlin Firearms Company of New Haven, Conn. He was one of the organizers of the Hardware Club and took an active interest in its success, and was also a member of the Colonial Club. Mr. Daly was a member of the Presbyterian Church. He had been a widower for some ten years. A son and a daughter survive him – Charles Howard Daly and Mrs. R. Courtney King.”

By 1909 Charles Howard Daly was well established at S, D & G and S, D&G had the following folks:
Joseph Gales of North Carolina – President
Charles Howard Daly – Secretary & Treasurer
Director – Joseph Gales, Charles Howard Daly(Yale Grad), Theodore W. Stake & Frederic J. Wilbur

I found this Wikipedia site after I had composed this and it looks to be valid if there are any folks who question the info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly_firearms . So it looks as if S, D & G faultered at the end of WWI and may have also been a contributing factor to the demise of the Lindner-Daly Doubles & Drillings, etc.

I can't say for sure if Schoverling or Daly had the initial connection in Suhl, but for now I guess Schoverling unless H. Boker was the beginning for Daly.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/18/09 01:09 PM
I can't remember if PeteM, or someone else, sent this to me or if I found it in a quick search but it is a Daly 10 bore from the mid to late 1870s with a metal buttplate and interesting forend lug: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131145171 . But what of interest to me are the initials in the last few pics of "CFW". Usually, but as with German longarms there are always exceptions, 3 initials sometimes denotes the maker and his area/city. But for now and in this case I would attribute the work to one of the Werner boys, specifically Christian Werner. Now there were 2 Christian boys with one being a polisher and I guess his middle name to be Fredrich, the first name of a few of the Werner clan. If someone would post the pic of the initials I would greatly appreciate it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/18/09 05:34 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr

R.S. Daly Lindner (Crown) circa 1888 3342(Robert Schlegelmilch? Or Richard Schüler?)


I hadn't thought of looking thru the U.S. of A. patents so I burned some time this a.m. searching. Robert Schlegelmilch entered or looks to have been involved in several circa 1900. I've seen him listed in Meiningen and the following patents give another location:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=c2pOAAA...cad=0_0#PPA1,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ljcvAAA...cad=0_0#PPA2,M1

Info on Robert usually is connected to machine tools and I think Stephan Heinrich Schlegelmilch early on to have been a tube borer but is found also involved with machine tools. So I would guess Stephan Heinrich & Robert to either be father & son or for Stephan Heinrich to be an older brother. But at any rate the Schlegelmilch klan look to have been on the front end of the mechanization of boring tubes and were very capable of doing. Another set of Schlegelmilch folk were into porcelain and Stephan Heinrich & Robert appear to have developed grinding machines for their specific application which leads me to believe a similar grinding machine was developed or refined to finish gun tubes. And mechanization is about the only way he could have been Lindner's quantity tube source. At least I think he holds a majority in the stamped initials.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/22/09 12:27 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr

So I would guess Stephan Heinrich & Robert to either be father & son or for Stephan Heinrich to be an older brother.


Wrong on all accounts. Robert Schlegelmilch was the son of Ernst Friedrich and Friederike Luise Kessler. August Louis(armour at Spandau & credited with advances on the Gewehr 71/84 changing from 11mm to 8mm), Gottlieb were his brothers along with 3 sisters with one being named Gottlobine, now how would you like that name hung about you? A possbile Kessler connection? See a new Schlegelmilch Büchsenmacher Family thread or something of the like.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/11/09 12:35 AM
Have a gander at Mr. Jones' latest Lindner Daly acquisitions at http://www.bobjonesguns.com/inventory.asp#SHOTGUNS and this one in particular: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4514S . He must have stumbled upon a pile of Lindner Dalys.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/02/09 03:29 AM
Ken:

Have you seen any other Georg Lindner examples with "CFW" on the tubes? -
[img][/img]

from - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139012602

I think I've seen similar initials but for now I guess it to be Christian Friedrich Werner, that is if Friedrich was his middle name. I don't think the last letter "W" represents a city as it was surely sourced from Suhl/Zella Saint Blasii/Mehlis.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 03:23 AM
At the Vintagers(2009) John Allgood of Maryland had at least 4 Lindner Dalys on his table.

10 Bore, pattern welded 30" tubes
1825 Brevette, serial 3485, Crown over Crossed Pistols
initials "A.S." - guess Albert Stobbe(founded 1865)
Game scene engraved on the bottom of the reciever
large forend bump and no proofmarks

#459 with 615 on tubes near forend-lug
with "Crown" over "V" on watertable?
Crossed Pistols over HAL high on the tubes near the forend-lug
Dolls head extension & ejectors
initials "R.S." - guess Robert Schleglemilch
interesting "Made In Prussia" stamp around the hammer screw where there was also "Charles Daly"

#2093 with 1898 near small forend with small forend bump
"Crossed Pistols" over "HAL" on Witten tubes with "R.S." initials
rectangular concealed crossbolt & sideclips on Diamond Quality


#1537 Featherweight with small forend bump
proofmarks & Crossed Pistols over HAL on Krupp tubes
concealed slanted rectangular crossbolt & sideclips
initials "R.S." - guess Richard Schuler
2 Shilling forge stamps on each tube

Approx. how many featherweights were there and when did they arrive on the scene?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 03:53 PM
Interesting 1929 Daly, with Sauer features at auction: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=140276215. Anyone recognize the tube maker's mark? I've emailed for a closer image.

Ken:

Did you get any pics of the Sauer-Daly at the GGCA display?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 05:21 PM
I'm almost positive that is the Poldi mark, there's a sheet somewhere on the site with the image, on the tubes of the all but true auction offering. This would go a long way in revealing that the maker stamped the tube type on there and could easily mix and match or stamp whatever the customer requested. I'll bet since it had "Krupp Steel" on the top rib that either in Germany or over here someone realized that it also need a Krupp steel mark on the underside. With Linder in control, I'll be it wouldn't have occurred.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 06:20 PM
Raimey,

I didn't have my camera with me to photograph the "Sauer-Daly" so I'll see if those turn out. I would still call this gun a "Sauer-barrelled Lindner Daly", but I know what you mean :-). I asked my Dad to snap a few pics - hopefully they turn out.

In regard to the Featherweight Dalys - I've copied a few paragraphs below from an article I did on them for the GGCA pub about 2 years back. The Cliff Notes version is that FW Dalys have always been a source of confusion as they show up when the catalogs show weren't available. A Rosetta Stone of sorts in the form of a hang tag came was found that shed a lot of light on the mystery. In this case the FW gun hang tag listed a Daly model not found in the period caalog.

"Sometimes it only takes one small piece of new information to enable a whole lot of old research to fall into place. That new piece of information came to me recently in the form of a photo of an original factory hang tag attached to a featherweight Prussian Charles Daly hammerless gun. As a bonus, the featherweight Daly in question was an especially beautiful and minty example of a Lindner-made Daly.

Featherweight Dalys have always been a source of frustration in my research of Prussian Charles Daly guns. While there have been almost a dozen featherweight guns recorded in the Prussian Daly database, the 1894 Schoverling, Daly, and Gales (SD&G) catalog is the last catalog that I’ve found that specifically lists a separate featherweight model. There is no mention of a featherweight model in the 1899 SD&G catalog, nor in any of the dozen or so later SD&G catalogs that I own. Yet I have personally handled many featherweight Dalys that were produced well beyond that 1894 catalog date, twenty years later in some instances. In addition to their obvious light weight - 5.5 to 6.25 lbs 12 gauge guns are typical – the featherweight Dalys are identified as “featherweight” guns right on the rib.

By my estimate, the subject of this article – Charles Daly #965 - was produced circa 1902. However, neither the 1902 nor 1903 SD&G catalogs featured a specific featherweight model. Both catalogs list the model 118 (the lowest Daly offering at the time) and the model 135 (the next step up). The model 118 is a boxlock non-ejector hammerless SxS that features a dollshead extension, while the model 135 is basically identical to the model 118 except for a hair more engraving and a crossbolt extension instead of the dollshead. These models retailed for $125 and $140 respectively in 1902. Charles Daly #965 appears to be a model 135 except for the “featherweight” designation.

According to period SD&G catalogs, 12 gauge hammerless guns with 26” barrels were available in weights ranging from 5.75 – 6.75 lbs at this time. I had not been able to find a specific listing or mention of a featherweight model or featherweight option in catalogs of this Daly’s era. So the question has remained - Were the featherweight Dalys of this period a separate model (or models) or was the featherweight designation merely an option for an existing model?

The answer to that question appears on the top of the original hang tag. Charles Daly #965 is a model 125! And a superior specimen at that! So it appears that featherweight guns were actually considered different models by SD&G during this time frame. Why they were not included in the catalog advertisements (at least the catalogs that I own) as separate models is still a mystery however. I’m not willing to suggest that was always the case with the featherweight guns, but at this time, it appears that the featherweight guns were in fact separate models."


Unfortunately there are not enough FW Dalys in the database to say much about their respective rarity.

Specific FW models are NOT listed in the circa-1885 SD&G catalog. The are, however, listed in both the 1892 and 1894 SD&G catalogs, but not listed in 1895 or in the later catalogs I own. That all said there are several known Daly FW guns (marked as such, not just lightweight guns) recorded 15+ years later than the last catalog listing.

Ken
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 06:26 PM
Raimey,

A late reply to your earlier post -

There are no other Prussian Dalys in the database with the initials "CFW" recorded.

Best regards,

Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 07:22 PM
Ken:

Maybe a consensus between us might shed some light. On all the other examples I would agree but this example has the set of 4 cavemen in addition to the intertwined "SS" for Sauer & Sohn and other than Jim Cate noting otherwise, I would say it was fully made at the Sauer plant. I think the number of cavemen was a fore-runner of the large and small Sauer crowns of quality & shooting performace. Depending on the date, HAL may have used a set of tubes off a Sauer completed gun so I invite your reasoning and note that the "HAL" was probably added as a control mark or something of the sort. Thanks for the effort and info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 08:47 PM
Raimey:

I think the key on this gun is the Sauer rib/barrel patent. I've noted another highest-grade Daly produced in the same time frame with the patent. The patent provides for a unique method of attaching the rib to the barrels via dovetails (very strong I'm sure but overkill IMO and likely expensive to manufacture). This patent is very prominently located on both sides of the barrels and indicated the patent registration in Germany, England, and America.

The Sauer patent was in effect at the time this Daly was produced and therefore anyone wanting this patent would have to have Sauer provide the tubes or pay some type of royalty. Given the prominent patent location advetising its use, it is something Sauer obviously was very proud of. Anecdotally, I have not seen many guns of any make with this patent so the patent never got much traction. Looking at the patent, I would guess that the cost to produce it would be high, but again the strength of the attachment would not be in question.

My thought is that the tubes for the gun were provide by Sauer, but Lindner was involved in the finishing. I base this on a couple of points - 1) presence of HAL marks on both barrels, 2) serial number sequence for the "second' serial number ahead of the barrel flats; this fits with other Lindner production, 3) stylistic elements of the gun are consistent with other Lindner (only) marked guns, 4) the only items that are not consistent with other Lindner Dalys are on the barrels to include the rib inscription. The rib inscription on this gun was only "Diamond Quality" instead of the expected, "Charles Daly Extra Fine Damascus Barrels Diamond Quality".

Again, I'm kind of scratching my head on this one and invite comments.

For the rest of the board, this gun in question is Cahrles Daly model 375 circa-1898 that clearly displayed both the Lindner and Sauer marks.

Best regards,
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/28/09 10:59 PM
For those with Mr. Cate's Sauer longarm book see page 246 for serial #681, with 900 toward the forend lug on the underside of the right tube, which has the same marks.

Ken:

I really enjoy the exchange of ideas and it makes me research more diligently.

Well, let me amend my comment surrounding the quad caveman stamp. I've seen a pair, a threesum, and at max 4 and there is a reason. At the Vintagers(2009) I asked Mr. Apel(GGCA) why there were multiple Schilling or "K" in a square(Krupp stamps) on tubes and he indicated that it was just 1 stamp with 2 images. So the 4 caveman would be a single stamp of 4 caveman images. Also I revisited the keyboard lashing I received from Mr. Cate in asking about the multi-caveman stamp being quality and he adamantly(?) stated that it wasn't a quality mark but noted the approval of the craftsmen at the Sauer plant and noted completion of the weapon at the Sauer plant. In a general sense, if that doesn't define quality, then I'm at a loss as to what does. I've pulled the tubes on an early Sauer-Daly hammer drilling and it does have the quad caveman stamp as well as 2 small crowns on the forend lug and the large and small crowns on the watertable. So the quad caveman isn't a precursor to the large and small crowns. But it has, just has to have something to do with quality/quality control as Manhattan Arms examples are the only other examples I have seen until the 2009 Vintagers, where I smoked over a Heinrich Scherping built by Sauer with utilizing the Facil Princeps(thanks to the observant eye of Steven Meyer) and that patent was stamped on the sides of the tubes similar to the Daly in question. The Heinrich Scherping also had the quad caveman stamp. There's no doubt in my mind that Sauer made the Heinrich Scherping and with the Scherping and Manhattan examples, all evidence is pointing to the fact that the probability is very high that Sauer completed some Lindner stamped Daly examples. If a Linder Daly can be located with the large and small Sauer crowns, then it had to be completed at the Sauer plant due to the fact that extra effort and expense was exhausted in patterning for what I think was the small crown, but the difference between the 2 crowns is a demon into itself. All in all, I'm really looking at the bigger picture of the possible sourcing of the makers in Suhl.

The "Sauer-Daly"'s tubes each have a bore parallel single caveman stamp, an intertwined "SS" perpendicular to the bore direction and a quad caveman stamp perpendicular to the bore on the underside of the left tube. These are all in addition to the required proofmarks. I'll search from my Manhattan and if anyone has a Manhattan example, I'd like to ask that you post pics of the area on the tubes just ahead of the flats.

What might the serial number have been?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/29/09 12:48 AM
Well, upon review(we may need instant play review) and comparing to Cate's Sauer book, I'm going to have to give Steven only partial credit on the Heinrich Scherping by Sauer(may shift some to Ken), as the America patent number was 505006 which is the same as the Daly: http://www.google.com/patents?id=pf1JAAA...;q=&f=false , and in my mind all but confirms that Sauer made the Daly in question and #681 in Sauer's book.

This also begs the question are the initials "R.S." Rudolf Sauer?????

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/29/09 09:43 AM
Raimey,

No question there were very strong links between Sauer and SD&G and Lindner. I guess I hesitate to declare this a wholly made Sauer gun on a couple of points.

SD&G sold Sauer guns along side its "own" Charles Daly guns for may years. Of the dozen or so brands of guns sold by SD&G, Sauers were usually second in the catalog order right behind the Dalys. Every Daly drilling I have ever seen been made by Sauer and prominently marked as having been made by Sauer (no attempt to was made to disguise the fact.) And Sauer did, in fact, briefly make a Daly gun, the model 80. In the catalog information, SD&G states that due to the volume of orders they had gone to the company that produces its drillings to manufacture the model 80. The forgings for the Lindner - Daly actions almost assuredly came from Sauer. So there were lots of close links between the three entities.

I guess I'll flip the question around the other way - i.e,. if the gun was made entirely by Sauer, here are the questions I am having a hard time explaining. If the gun was made entirely by Sauer, why are the Lindner marks there at all? Why is the gun not marked like the other Sauer Dalys (drillings, model 80) showing Sauer as the maker on the barrels? Daly was certainly not trying to hide the maker of its guns. Why is the serial numbering sequence of the second number near the forend consistent with Lindner production to SD&G and other makers/retailers? Why is it that the Sauer marks have only been noted (other than the drillings and model 80) on Daly guns bearing the 505006 patent?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to noodle this one through. No question Sauer was heavily involved in making this gun, but I hesitate to give Sauer all the credit on this one. It is definitely an interesting puzzle.

Best regards,
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/29/09 11:25 AM
Ken:

As I stated earlier, if we can arrive at some sort of consensus, then we can look in that direction. I truely believe in quid pro quo and there's nothing argumentative about this thread. For the advancement of the collection of info on Lindner Daly guns, if you don't agree, say so & why.

The presence of the "HAL" marks don't bother me that much but the serial number and number near the forend lug do. I didn't look there on the Heinrich Scherping, but didn't know too. I think a lot of the questions that arise here force us to look in a different direction or look at a series of marks differently. In 1897 Heinrich Scherping sold his business to the brothers Heinrich Eckebrecht & Johann Eckebrecht and they both expired with a year in the very late 1930s. Were they masters, I can't say. Heinrich Scherping expired just prior to WWI and met the requirement that a firm have a master, so Heinrich was at the least one of the masters at the firm when the Sauer-Facil Princeps was made. From looking at several other Heinrich Scherping, Hannover examples, he sourced heavily from Sauer and offered a Rigby style forend latch, which is typically seen on Vienna examples, on all but a few of his models. I doubt very seriously that Heinrich Scherping put much effort into the Facile Princeps longarm. It had "Krupp Spezial Lauf Stahl" tubes and in 1894 Krupp offered 4 steel types thru Krupp. So the Heinrich Scherping was made between 1894 and 1912, which I consider to be during the same time of the Daly in question. Jeff Stephens guesses that circa 1900 that the technique was abandonded, http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...=30&fpart=3 .

What did I learn? Well I need to take better notes and without a doubt take a image saving device. It's akin to going to the Vintagers and thinking you'll remember all the German guns there. Also all marks need to be noted and scrutinized.

On the Daly of question, considering the "HAL" marks and serial number, what is the minimum effort Lindner would have performed on the example? Or conversely, what effort by Sauer is noted by their marks? The only Sauer mark missing is a caveman perpendicular to the bore direction in the position of the Crossed Pistols over HAL, unless I've missed one.

So would you go as far as to say that Lindner finished this one in Sauer's shop???? About the only way to gain knowledge is to make a reasonable premise, research along that line and when data proves a very low probablilty, acknowledge that it isn't a possiblity, heading in yet another direction.

From this Vintagers, GGCA get-together, examples and such, I've learned that I've just scratched the surface and don't know nothing. We've a long row to hoe. Also the name Rudolf Sauer and initials "R.S." are pressing on my mind. But Sauer had a forge or something of the like in Steinsfeld, which I think to be close to Meiningen, where they had a satellite office, which is where Robert Schlegelmilch performed his art. But I don't know when the forge came online, but was active post WWI.

We could probably do this by email as you, I and possibly a handful of other hardcore Daly fanatics may be the only ones reading this verbiage.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted By: eightbore Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/29/09 02:28 PM
Raimey, your conclusion about the readership of these Lindner threads is incorrect. When Owleye was participating, I started printing these threads, hoping that I could be there when some of these mysteries were solved. I haven't been as diligent at the "print" button since Ken took over the database because I assumed he would publish more than he has. Don't bury all this research in emails, please. I didn't participate in the research done by Ken and others at the Vintagers, but I did stand with my hands in my pockets and my ears open while those more versed than I discussed what we are discussing today. Please stay on this forum and don't go to the email function to discuss this interesting stuff. Bill Murphy
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/29/09 10:06 PM
Raimey,

I always appreciate your insight. Trying to figure out the delineation of work on this gun is tough. Obviously the barrels are totally Sauer made. It is very likely other work was done by Sauer also (in addition to providing the original rough forging), but I'm not sure how much or on which pieces. Sauer was obviously capable of producing top quality work. But I am stuck in the original question "loop" of why are Lindner's marks on the gun? Sauer produced Charles Daly drillings and the model 80 did not bear Lindner marks. If Sauer was commissioned to make a high-grade Daly shotgun I would not expect to see Lindner's marks at all.

Was Lindner merely the "quality control" man in the production of this gun (one side of the spectrum of possibilities)? Or did Lindner make the gun and happened to decide to use the latest, highest strength barrel/rib arrangement which came exclusively from Sauer? I'm guesing the truth is somewhere in between, but I'm struggling with where?

Eightbore,

I also wish I have had more published to date. Work, family, and life conspire against my best intentions. That said, I have done 5 or 6 articles from the German Gun Collectors Journal, and I have a few more in the works. I have had a long article in the hopper for the DGJ for quite awhile, but everytime I think it might be closer to publishing, new discoveries are made which bring me back to square one - like the gun in question.

Ken
Posted By: m-4 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/29/09 11:37 PM
Raimey,Ken,Eightbore,
I agree please don't bury this discussion into private e-mails, I for one am guilty in that I have done so myself with Raimey when I first saw this thread as I was intrigued with his knowledge & research capabilities. I have been collecting & researching Heinrich Scherping guns for sometime now and in what I am learning from you guy's amazes me & to see the ties to Sauer as with the Daly's, it opens the eyes as to how many smaller makers were out there producing fantastic firearms without trying to reinvent the wheel. Makes sense that a smaller maker would source the raw components that he did not have the capability to make from one of the best of the larger firms, then bring them into their shop & tweak & embellish to fit their customers desires & retail their own finished product that differed from others. I wish I had more knowledge to share on the subject but feel like a rookie, but I do have quite few examples of Heinrich Scherpings guns and am certainly willing to add anything I can in learning more on the Suhl trade of the time.

Best Regards
Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/30/09 12:03 AM
Eightbore:

Thanks for reading and calling my hand. It isn't that a more sanitatized verision wouldn't be posted, but I tend to think that folks might get a bit distracted when lengthy diatribes on abstract thoughts are posted. And everyone I've had the pleasure of meeting or had email contact with seem to ask for more. So with that said, I'll tell you what I think.

Jesse Thompson, or another authority on German target arms, interviewed Helmut Schlegelmilch, whose grandfather was Gebhard Helmuthhauser(I think his mark to be a star over H), both which worked at G.C. Haenel. Buchsenmacher Helmuthhauser told an account of Herrn Aydt having a set aside room where he personally inspected as well as tested every Haenel Aydt action German target arm they produced. I assume that he had some sort of stamp of approval. I think this not to have been odd, but the norm for contractors. Heirs and assigns give that the high cost of patent renewal forced Herrn Aydt to let the patent expire after 20 years in 1904. Herrn Aydt insisted that each example be composed of the highest grade steel since other similar, inferior, cheaper ones were possibly made of cast.

I've read and heard of a special room at the Sauer facility where the highest of grade guns were inspected and finished. Consider that Heinrich August Linder had about 1/2 dozen journeymen at his basement shop. Using the Bohemians as a benchmark, and I realize they are not German but are still craftsmen on par with the Germans, such a shop would turn out maybe 2 dozen and possibly 3 dozen longarms per year. With economics in mind, which is directly equated to time, now consider as per the 1907 catalogue, and let's digress back 7 or so years for effect, the stated fact is that it takes 6 months to complete a Model 500. So lets say that a Model 275 takes 3 months to complete. Continuing along the same lines, let us say that the Model 135 and Model 118 take a month to complete. If anyone has real number please feel free to correct me. I'm not positive of the yearly production numbers, but let's say over a year Heinrich Lindner gets an order for 3 Model 500s(you could insert Model 375), 5 Model 275s and 2 dozen Model 135s and 118s together. From 1880 to WWI was the peak of order and production. So how is Heinrich August Lindner going to fill these orders? Well, let us say he spent 2/3rds of his time in his basement shop supervising the completion of the Model 135/118s(could easily include the Model 225s) from components and 1/3 of his time in a special room at the Sauer plant as a quality control fella and apparently performed the task of fitting the tubes to the action in the ongoing process. It's just pure conjecture, but I think it is a start.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/30/09 12:28 AM
Fellas:

I failed to add the question of why in 1914/1915 did Sauer purportedly produce a top quality promotion gun for S, D&G as serial #167317? I think the answer is that Ernst Lindner was drafted and either Heinrich August Lindner embraced the possiblity of the loss of his son, who fell in fierce fighting against the Brits at the site of the Bellewaarde Spur Attack on June 16th, 1915 or he lost interest at Ernst's death. Ernst Lindner was born on July 6th, 1883 and should have been a master by the time of the 1907 S,D&G catalogue. If Heinrich August Lindner waited until the loss of Ernst, how could Sauer have produced a masterpiece so quickly, i.e., they were doing it already with Heinrich August Lindner assistance as a quality control specialist.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/30/09 12:54 AM
Raimey,

Good point on the production numbers. I have thought about the Lindner production numbers quite a bit as they are an integral part of working through the Daly serial number sequence. While I am sure it varied considerably during the 40+ years Lindner produced or helped produce guns, a production figure of 100 guns/year is decent working number.

While Lindner had a shop of only 6 or so men, he likely used a number outworkers for some parts/tasks as was the norm for the Suhl trade. This bit makes the production calculus tougher.

Best regards,
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/30/09 01:27 AM
"Production Calculus", you may have coined a new term and I'm fond of it. True he did source components and tasks but I don't think he strayed far from his relative network and Sauer. Sources give he was termed as a "rucksack gunsmith", which was a bit demeaning but I'm sure they were jealous of his connections. Forget not that during the same period, the Bohemians sourced the Belgians for components and really weren't even able to approach the 100 longarm examples per year.

I will say that I have read from several sources that he really didn't make any guns, but I don't think that to be the case.

Any yearly production numbers for the 1890 decade as well as the early 1900s?

Today, I have wrestled with the serial number and stamped number near the forend lug. Sometimes it's 200+, more or less, and sometimes it is -200, more or less. It must have something to do with payment; to whom I can't say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/30/09 02:08 AM
There was a question at the GGCA get-together at the Vintagers(2009) raised by Mr. Mann as to a stamp of a "S" in a star on the butt of the stock of a Lindner Daly he had worked upon. For now, I guess it to be Christoph Lebrecht Schilling with a lesser probability of Friedrich Schlegelmilch, both which were master stockers from the mid 1800s on. If anyone else has such a stamp or a different one from a Daly, we'd be pleased as punch if you'd post it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/01/09 03:48 AM
Here's a Georg Lindner 10 bore double for Charles Daly #47 listed at Cabelas, http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 :


There looks to be a set of initials next to the "154", but I can't say. The form was there before Heinrich August Lindner added his mark, including the forend bump. So was Georg Lindner and his 1/2 dozen craftsmen making all of Charles Daly's gun inhouse; I doubt it. Where ever Georg Lindner was sourcing, Heinrich August Lindner contiued the tradition. I'm still unsure where Georg Lindner was an apprentice.

Sauer Daly as listed by Cabelas, http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 :


I'm curious if the DRGM around the cocking indicator is from the 1890s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/02/09 01:42 PM
Cabelas did send some pics of the underside of the tubes but I don't think they are worth posting.

1889 - Outing, Vol. 13 Daly Advert.(page xxx): http://books.google.com/books?id=1BugAAA...;q=&f=false



Recreation - 1906

“Messrs. Schoverling, Daly & Gales write to us as follows: “Charles Daly hammerless shotguns are a high-grade hand-made gun and are made in our Suhl factory, where Daly guns exclusively have been made for the past thirty-five years. Sauer hammerless shotguns, Sauer-Mauser rifles, Charles Daly three-barrel hammer and hammerless guns and combined shot and rifle are all made in the Factory of Messrs. J.P. Sauer & Son, Suhl, Germany. The Daly three-barrel shotgun and rifle has always been made by them under contract for Charles Daly, in later years has borne the name of both concerns.”
(The last sentence is interesting)


The following quotes are out of a 1907 S,D&G catalogue:

"Charles Daly Guns have the genuine Anson & Deely System action, Charles Daly pattern, which means that the frame is one inch longer than the regular Anson & Deeley frame, making the leverage greater; this, with the fine fitting accounts for Daly Guns seldom shaking loose."

"Charles Daly Diamond Quality Guns. Grades 500, 375, 325, 275, 225 Are made by artisans who have for years worked exclusively on "Diamond Quality." As it takes from six months to a year to finish one of these guns, it can be readily seen what great care is taken in their production."

"Sauer Hammerless Guns Are made with Anson & Deeley system locks, but with an inch longer frame, which makes the leverage greater. The lock parts are highly finished and the fitting is simply perfect."(Mr. Cate notes on page 283 of his text: "Note: It was about 1902 or early 1903 when Sauer introduced a true Anson & Deeley hammerless action." Where Daly was offering an Anson & Deeley verions(1" longer frame????) in 1889( http://books.google.com/books?id=lLzQAAA...889&f=false with Daly advert on page xxx )????

I've read it before but it didn't really sink in, but I'm sure S,D&G invested pretty heavily into Heinrich August Lindner's venture and this is the shop that they refer to as "our Suhl Factory." There's another reference regarding the boring of their tubes being at the same factory and the advert uses terms that one would see in a Sauer Advert.

1902 Recreation - http://books.google.com/books?id=lPAXAAA...;q=&f=false

"Barrels of Krupp Genuine Fluid Steel. Barrels equal to or better than used in many guns costing 3 times as much. Bored on the same system that has made the Daly Gun renowned for its wonderful shooting qualities."


Apparently the Diamond Quality reached all the way down to the Model 225 and early on the Lindner's could have made these in their own shop from sourced components or finished them in their own shop. But if production numbers were near 100 longarms per year, and seeing who connected S,D&G and Sauer were, it only seems fit that Heinrich August Lindner had to spend some time at the Sauer plant. In my mind all the quality references in the S,D&G adverts points solely to the ability of Heinrich August Lindner. Also I'm curious if the "Charles Daly Pattern" was a joint venture of Georg/Heinrich August Lindner and Charles Daly?

Anyone guess the country of origin of the Charles Daly "Extra Close and Hard Shooting guaranteed for 12.00 extra" in this 1874 advert: http://books.google.com/books?id=8DwZAAA...;q=&f=false ???

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Posted By: reb87 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/02/09 02:57 PM
My WM Schaefer barrels and my Lindner Daly







Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/02/09 03:03 PM
Reb87:

Thanks for the post. Interesting stamp of "HAL 352". There's little doubt in my mind that Henirch August Lindner fitted the tubes to the action on this one. Also your post may give some insight into that additional number seen on Lindner Daly doubles, if the "352" isn't the serial number. Are the initials "A.S." on the opposite side on both sets of tubes?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/02/09 10:34 PM
Here's the pics of the Cabela's Sauer Model 8(not Model 1 Daly?) Daly #133766 which I guess to be circa 1912:



There looks to be the initials of a script "L.L." under the left tube near the serail number and "295 C".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PeteM Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/02/09 11:35 PM
Leon Leclercq used LL. However, I never recall seeing script being used.

Pete
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/04/09 02:35 AM
For now I can only think of Ludwig Langebarthel, but I think him to be long expired by 1912, but I guess there's still a chance.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/05/09 12:38 AM
Reb 87, the similaity of engraving on our two Lindner made guns is incredible, yet there are subtle differences. I do believe the engraver cut these guns freehand. Notice a little bit of the gold wash remains on the engraving near the hinge pin. The serial number on mine is 3624.



Posted By: reb87 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/05/09 01:40 AM
Joe,
Could you show a pic of your stock? Ive always thought mine was restocked because the checkering on the grip didnt match the quality of the rest of the gun. I never really liked the big game on the bottom either, birds would be better but the guns are stunning.



Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 10/05/09 02:11 AM
This is the only one I have loaded right now. It does seem strange that yours does not have drop points behind the side panels or the horn grip cap that all of the ones I've seen have.








Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/18/09 05:17 AM
If you believe the text on the top rib here, http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4510S , not only did Charles Daly make Damascus tubes in his Suhl factory, but also Krupp steel tubes. I'm curious though how many Lindner Daly's have the "Charles Daly Krupp Fluid Steel" stamp?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/10/10 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr

1902 Recreation - http://books.google.com/books?id=lPAXAAA...;q=&f=false

"Barrels of Krupp Genuine Fluid Steel. Barrels equal to or better than used in many guns costing 3 times as much. Bored on the same system that has made the Daly Gun renowned for its wonderful shooting qualities."
I would guess that the tubes were made in the Sauer plant but wonder if they were exposed to the same craftsmanship and shooting performace as the Sauer's with the "Large & Small Crowns"?

On another note, Heinrich A. Lindner's son Ernst Lindner was born on July 6th, 1883 and fell in fierce fighting opposite the Brits on June 16th, 1915. He entered the apprentice program and should have received his master's brief circa 1906. In 1904 Heinrich Lindner is noting as expanding the business and I can't say if it was regarding structure, machinery or both. I guess he was expanding in anticipation of his son becoming a master and the potential of another master inhouse. I can begin to see a small portion of the devistation due to the realization of loss of an heir in the gunsmith line, but not the loss of a son.
In the 1903-1904 period does anyone have info as far as changes in Charles Daly models, offerings, etc?? Any note of "E.L." marks on the 1906-pre-WWI examples?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/17/10 12:57 AM
Some may tire of the continual supposition of the Lindner Daly marks as well as the why behind the Lindner-Daly doubles, but it appears that Heinrich Lindner's business expansion of 1903/1904, Ernst Lindner attaining the rank of master 1906/1907(guess due to age only) and the 1907 edition of the Schoverling, Daly & Gales catalogue are more than coincidence. Also some of the verbiage included in the catalogue is self lauding, but I think that a close examination of what is said may give insight as to what happened in the Lindner & Sauer shops.

from page 5: "Charles Daly Guns have the genuine Anson & Deeley System action, Charles Daly pattern, which means that the frame is one inch longer that the regular Anson & Deeley frame, making the leverage greater;"

from page 17: "Sauer Hammerless Guns are made with Anson & Deeley system locks, but with an inch longer frame, which makes the leverage greater. The lock parts are highly finished and the fitting is simply perfect."

I'm positive it's been covered before about the frame length but to me this seems to closely tie Lindner & Sauer, who addressed mechanization circa 1882 and by 1907 was pretty much fully dependent on electricity.

Also from page 17 on Sauer Hammerless Guns: "The boring is done on the most modern system adn the shooting guaranteed. And thanks to Geno it has been confirmed that the "Large & Small Crowns" denoted craftsmanship & shooting performance.

From page 7: "The engraving is done by our finest artisans, by hand only; sometimes months are devoted to engraving the actions, while the other parts are being finished in the different departments of the factory. Every gun is tested over and over again until it shoots perfectly, which accounts for the good reports we are constantly receiving of the shooting qualities of Charles Daly Guns."

The "Regent Diamond" had "a crown of gold worked in the action, the inside lock work finely finished and inspected with the greatest cares". I'm curious how the early "Crowns" found on the underside of the tubes with the "Cross Pistols" compared with the "Crown" on the underside of the "Regent Diamond" and if the "Crown" was to denote the mark of quality. Also considering the "Crown" over a backwards "E"B found on the underside of a set of tubes


and if of German origin along with the Sauer "Large & Small Crowns", would the mark of Lindner be a quality control mark as well as highest craftsmanship and shooting performance?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: John Mann Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/17/10 02:07 AM
I have never doubted that Lindner's actions were of Sauer origin.
I do think that that one inch longer action was a Lindner invention and Sauer complied. It was later, unless corrected, that Sauer added it to their product line. It seems to me elemental that it was strictly Lindner, as no other makers had it, at Lindner's time.
I have stated, in print, that Lindner was responsible for qualifying guns that went to Daly after Lindner retired and for a short time after.
When Hans and I began our research, few workmen from Lindner's time, in the gun business, were alive. But, we did have the opportunity to talk with a few. They, to a man, agreed that Lindner was a gentleman held in deep respect in Suhl. His home/workshop (see the pic in the DGJ) attests to his success.
I have thought long and hard about this man. He was an obsession for me for several years.
I have concluded that he was the consummate business man, taking every opportunity to advance his opinion, in product, on what was a superior and beautiful sporting shotgun. I have also concluded that he was imminently capable of producing that final product. Either under his own marque or that of Sauer.
Please pardon this intrusion on a serious academic thread. Passion dictates, on occasion. Plus, I am an old man !!LOL
Best regards,
John
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/17/10 02:21 AM
Mr. Mann:

Your comments are most welcome as with Hans having left us and possibly the craftsmen you mention, you are our source of parol evidence and I hope that you continue to interject vital clues. Had it not been for yourself and Hans, we would know little of the Lindner craftsmen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: John Mann Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/17/10 04:03 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Mr. Mann:

Your comments are most welcome as with Hans having left us and possibly the craftsmen you mention, you are our source of parol evidence and I hope that you continue to interject vital clues. Had it not been for yourself and Hans, we would know little of the Lindner craftsmen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey


I am humbled by your comments.
Hans, my dear friend and consummate student of German guns, was my inspiration. This is evidenced by my encouraging his publishing his outstanding books, both available and some to be so. My tact was toward the men that produced the guns that we treasure today.
As a devotee of great works of art, I have included this man, HA Lindner as one of the masters of his discipline.
There is art and there is art.
Visual and otherwise.
His work is art of a usuable sort.
Great useful art.
I stand in awe.

Best regards,
John

rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/17/10 05:49 PM
John, break in on any subject any time! You are one of the very few that I read and re-read and make notes. I just wish we'd hear from you much more frequently. Remember, those things you might consider to be insignificant could easily be very important and revealing to many of us. Thanks for everything you've contributed!

Joe
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 02/19/10 02:55 AM
Daly # 3354 with A&D Bre. # 1537 - I wonder at what point in time some decided to de-face the "ELG" in a oval; in the U.S. of A.???

http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=38405&sale



I'd really like to see ahead of the flats on the 1968? year tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 02/19/10 03:54 AM
Chalres Daly(Lindner) #1680 10 bore with Witten tubes which looks to have passed thru the Sauer plant:



Greifeldt #28736 in 32 bore that wears a "D" that looks to have been applied by the same craftsman as above on the Lindner.





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 02/19/10 12:15 PM
Sort of an aside, but it appears that Charles Daly is defunct once again as of the end of January.

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?p=321214

Even Wikipedia is on the ball:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly_firearms

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 02/20/10 09:05 PM
9/1924 proofed Daly



M.S. – Moritz Schilling or Max Schilling(Fabrikant/manufacture in Zella Saint Blasii 1907) but I'd put my money on Mortiz Schilling who along with Albert & Walter Schilling owned what stock and/or machinery of Valentin Christoph Schilling that Heinrich Krieghoff didn't purchase in 1904.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/09/10 02:24 PM
Knowing Heindrick August Schoverling arrived in the U.S. of A. in the late 1850s as a merchant and considering trial testimony, I knew Heindrdick August Schoverling(he & Daly worked at Hermann Boker in the 1860s) was betting/trading on the side with respect to Schoverling, Daly & Gales(N.C. - bicylces). Heindrick August Schoverling & Sophia Augusta "Gussie" Heitmann were married on Oct. 8, 1868 and Albert August Schoverling possibly was born in the mid to late 1870s. In June of 1898 during the Spanish-American War he entered(was pressed into service) or was drafted?? and only stayed until November of the same year. Heindrick August Schoverling died on the 29th of March, 1891 and it is difficult to determine whose heirs and assigns were in control of Schoverling, Daly & Gales after Daly's death in 1899. But the years of 1903 to 1906 look to have been a very busy period for H.A. Lindner, Sauer & Schoverling, Daly & Gales(Charles H. Daly, Joseph Gales & Theodore W. Stake were principals circa 1904) with the decendents of Heindrick August Schoverling being no different as circa 1904 Schovering & Welles was formed with Albert August Schoverling, Frederick W. Schoverling & Henry S. Welles as the prinicipals at 2 Murray Street, NY. Schoverling and Welles were agents for Muller & Company, J.B. Ranger & Sons of Belgium, Franz Jaeger of Germany as well as others. During this time Albert A.(August?) Schoverling seems to have been very active in competition and also being a memeber at the Palisade Gun Club of Edgewater, N.J. I typed all this seeing I ran across a drilling example with the "Schoverling & Welles" name on it.



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=158796067

I'm attempting to acquire some info/pics but it may sale soon.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/11/10 12:29 AM
O.K., who purchased it???


I think I may have cracked the code on the "K.S." initial on the Lindner Daly tubes. At first I had guessed it to be a craftsman such as Karl Schlegelmilch, although I cannot say such a person existed. The Schlegelmilch folk seemed to be everywhere with Emil Schlegelmilch being a partner/principal in Greifeldt. Getting back to the "K.S." I now think it was Karl Streng of Goldlauter and after 1900 up till WWI was listed in Suhl but the area may have included Goldlauter. I also think Karl Streng to be the son, or grandson, of Heinrich Streng who in the mid 1800s was listed as a "Rohrverschrauber" and I'm not really sure of the translation. Peter Weiß(1892-1872?? probably of the Goldlauter Weißs) passed thru the shop of Karl Streng & Company in the early 1900s as an apprentice and went on in 1923 to be the proofmaster at the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse. It seems that Lindner, both Georg & H.A., sourced the master craftsmen in small communities surrounding Suhl. I still hold that the "R.S." to be for Robert Schlegelmilch but if Heinrich Streng had another decendent with the 1st initial of "R.", he could have easily been sourced by the Lindners.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/12/10 03:13 PM

R.S. – Robert Schlegelmilch until 1923 and the possibility of Richard Schüler thereafter

E.E. – Emil Eckholdt beginning in 1876, at some point used “EES”- Emil Eckholdt Suhl

K.S. - Karl Streng & Company of Goldlauter

Suhler Waffenfabrik Schlegelmilch & Metzner existed until 1901 and then Suhler Waffenfabrik Robert Schlegelmilch was formed and existed until 1923. Seeing Robert Schlegelmilch examples in the 1912-1923 period suggest that he was active during this period and Daly doubles with proof dates in 1924 just might be his work. He did source the tube making to the Kelber boys as did many others during this period mainly due to economics. Post 1923 the possibility exists that the "R.S." initials could easily be for Richard Schüler seeing there is documentation that links Schoverling, Daly & Gales with Richard Schüler.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/05/10 10:20 PM


This is a H. Scherping but the dual serial number on the watertable is common with a few other firearms merchant's example.

I'm looking for some H.A. Lindner Daly's with a serial number in the same range and in the same location. There is an example in Mr. Cate's book in the same range like #681.



Pete's Geyger from this thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104031&page=1



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/05/10 10:40 PM
A. A. Schoverling was manager of the Mullerite Gun Club in Newark, N.J. in 1905
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1905/VOL_44_NO_22/SL4422016.pdf
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/06/10 01:59 AM
Yeah, Drew I'm sure Albert August Schoverling was quite the man about town being a Schoverling heir.

I forgot to note that Charles Daly #681 in Mr. Cate's book has "HAL" over "Crossed Pistols" on the flats as well as 2 intertwined "S"s possibly with a "u" in the center one each tube and 4 stacked "Cavemen" with a "Staff" and a lone "Caveman" with a "Staff" on the left tube. Sort of hints that Sauer & Lindner were working closely together?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/18/10 11:49 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
A 1932 Daly example at Cabelas, http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653 (3rd colum & 3rd row), with what looks to be the initials of "E.K." which would be for Emil Klett. Then there's the initials "F.A." which is somewhat odd and perplexing as in the 1930s it could be for the following:
Franz Adamy(they might have had plenty of work)
Fritz Albrecht
Franz Amthor(barrel maker)
Fridolin Anschutz(I don't think it was him). And then the letters "Sl" who was probably the tube source. With the "Made in Prussia" stamp, I'm curious if the frame was sourced from old stock.


O.K. you 2 Daly fans who are still following this thread, after just a lovely gathering w/ Mr. Wes. Fink of Dayton, viewing 3 beautiful Daly O/Us, I think "F.A." is to be for Franz Adamy, brother of Albert Adamy, and that the serial number range of 26,XXX is that of Gebrüder Adamy and not that of Richard Schüler. And here's why: I'm away from my notes for a bit but Mr. Fink dug up a NRA publication that noted that Sloan's Sporting Goods purchased S, D, & G in the late 1920s and Gebrüder Adamy made guns for Sloan's Sporting Goods or Sloan's Sporting Goods of Conn. sourced Gebrüder Adamy for some of their examples. The above quoted example and those of Mr. Finks are separated by as few as 20 examples apart and not more than say 500. So we have 3 guns made in the 1931-1932 time period in the 26,000 - 266xx range all with "F.A." either on the left side of the lower tube or on the left side of the barrel flats. Mr. Fink has a most interesting/confusing Regent Diamond Pigeon gun that doesn't have a "F.A." stamp but is within say 50 examples of 1 of the 3 aforementioned "F.A." stamped Daly's so by default, even though I didn't see a "F.A." stamp I still contend that by default that it passed under the watchfull eye of the Boys Adamy before heading to Daly and that Gebrüder Adamy was a major player, possibly along with Richard Schüler who might have been next inline in the early 1930s, in the production of Daly examples. Anyone have any Gebrüder Adamy examples with "F.A." or "A.A." on the tubes or have a handle on the Gebrüder Adamy serial number range?

And if memory serves me correct, I think there were several "Sauer Dalys" with a "F.A." stamp on the barrel flats. So did Sauer also sub some of their non-production work to the Boys Adamy? I'm beginning to think that about everyone in Suhl potentially could have put a hammer or a file stroke on about any example sourced from Suhl.

"E.K." is present on all, I think, and could be for Emil Klett or Erich Kelber. A tough call for now but the gothic "J" at the end of the stamp "Krupp Lauf Stahl" may narrow the field of families. Wilhelm Kelber's mark is on at least 1.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rae
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/19/10 02:26 AM
"As a side note, the Klett clan began making weapons in the latter part of the 16th Century and have had grinding wheels/machines and boring devices ever since. I don't know how many branches are on the Klett family tree, but Helmut Klett, an apprentice at the Adamy establishment prior to WWII, is purported to have been the last Klett gunmaker in Suhl before departing after WWII." from here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post148539

So there was a relationship between the Adamy klan and the Klett klan. I wonder if one married the other's sister?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/19/10 02:53 AM
Ken:
Changing horses a bit, how many Daly single traps you've noted wear the "Crown" over "B" proofmark?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/19/10 03:10 AM
Here's a bolt gun at Bertram's noting Sloans as sole agents for Gebrüder Adamy: http://bertramandco.com/Mauser3006.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/19/10 11:26 AM
Here is a Chris. Funk peddled O/U at Bob Jones suggested to be a pigeon O/U: http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details.asp?id=C4515S . Has anyone handled this one? Is the rib typical of a pigeon gun? Any idea on the single trigger maker? Was a safety also typical?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/19/10 07:39 PM
Ken:
Have you logged this "cased" Lindner Daly #645 at Julia's Auction in 2008, which looks to have the initials "R.S.": http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=35530&sale=252 ?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/20/10 03:19 PM
It may be that Richard Schüler was sourced for some Dalys post WWI but an 1935 article in celebration of the 100 year mark for the history of Gewehrfabrik August Schüler seems a bit larger than like and may have been more or self lauding and advertising than anything else touting their vast machine shop. August Schüler was founded by Friedrich Schüler in 1835 with his younger brother August Schüler taking the reins in 1850. I guess that the name August may have been their grandfather's name, possibly father's name. August Schüler, CEO in 1850, had 2 sons Friedrich and Oskar Schüler both worked in the family business until 1913 when apparently there was some bad blood with a departure by Oskar Schüler. Friedrich Schüler had a son who was named Richard and it is he who had sourcing ties to Daly and it may have been thru a fella by the name of Robert Fahner. He joined a firm in 1928 and I guess it to have been the August Schüler firm. A cat named Frederick W. Hollender of New York( http://books.google.com/books?id=x2jZAAA...p;q&f=false ? - right side 7th from bottom ) seems to have been pen pals with Richard Schüler in the early 1930s. Hollender was the owner of some firm but I can't say he was attached to Charles Daly, which post WWI was owned by Henry Modell(I assume he was the son of Morris Modell): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modell's (copy & paste). Now I know that some of you aren't fond of Wikipedia but it is a location to start. Henry Modell sold the Charles Daly name/business to Sloan's Sporting Goods of 88 Chambers Street, NY. Like a cat, curiousity has just about got the best of me and I may just order the 1930s Sloan's gun catalogue at "Sporting Collectables": http://www.sportingcollectibles.com/MNOphotos/m32200sloans1930scat.jpg . In early 1930s correspondence between Richard Schüler and businessman Fredrik W. Hollender Hollender notes that "Daly Inc. Alias Sloans Sporting Goods co. 88 Chambre St, aus?" which I think means that by 1930 Daly was also known as Sloan's Sporting Goods at least by the 1930s. So it may be that Schüler was sourced from post WWI to the mid to late 1920s and then it may be that Sloan's Sporting Goods/aka Charles Daly continued with their sourcing lines which would have been to Gebrüder Adamy, with the examples slated for the U.S. of A. passing under the ever watchful eye of either Albert or Franz Adamy. Wilhelm Heym was also in New York in the early 1930s peddling 12 very nice example he brought with him in late 1931. I think this was an effort to establish sourcing lines and it may be that during this trip he courted G&H? So it appears the peddling on this side of the pond was as complex as the manufacture of weapons in the Suhl and Zella-Mehlis region.

Richard Schüler & Robert Schlegelmilch of course have the same initials and I think Robert Schlegelmilch, or the firm Robert Schlegelmilch, to have been active up to circa 1924.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/20/10 03:51 PM
Raimey, such good work. Thanks
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/21/10 01:03 AM
Thanks Mr. Hallquist. I wish we had a few more Daly examples similar to yours from the 1920s and more from the early 1930s. I assume they will surface over time.

The plot thickens and I for the time I think this Fredrick W. Hollender to be the pen pal of Richard Schüler and possibly an importer of guns. The following NY Times article states that Carl Tielenius was a beer importer and purchased the beer importing Frederick W. Hollender & Co. firm circa 1910. Maybe Hollender was just an importer and would start a business and then sell it. Then he would go back to being an importer of something else. I wonder if Carl Tielenius was an importer of beer & guns from Germany. Who knows for now.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=990CE2D7103AE633A2575BC0A9609C946396D6CF

http://books.google.com/books?id=2W07AAA...ius&f=false

Frederick/Fredrik W. Hollender was from Germany and had 2 sons in the German Army: Brno & Frederick. The paragraph is just above "Safe in Stockholm" on the left side: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A0CE2DF1638E633A2575AC0A96E9C946596D6CF . So it was a much more Germanic connection than one might think and that was why the letters were always in German.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/21/10 04:19 AM
Raimey,

Here is a teaser - a Daly O/U from early 1930s. I also have a Diamond Quality 20 side by side from the same era. I've been told both are likely Schuler made, but have never seen any real evidence of that. What should I look for? Additional photos will probably be slow coming as I will be away for several days.

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/21/10 12:06 PM
Terry:
A teaser it is as well as a nice addition to the overall Daly puzzle. It looks akin to the O/U at Bob Jones that has Chrs. Funk's name roll stamped on it. The arcaded fences are somewhat similar along with the 1/2 pipe side frame reinforcement. Even though the following diagram is a combo, I think the action is the same with the exception that yours doesn't have the deep forward lug that sticks thru the floorplate. The Schüler boys seemed to cotton to larger lugs and dogs with the front/forward portion of the cocking levers usually larger and dipping lower.

[quote=ellenbr]

from a Robert Schüler thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post184804

What I'd look for:

1st, is there a serial number on the left side of the watertable and on the lower tube?

Are the strikers bushsed as well as disk set? Are there any initals on the left side of the lower tube near the lugs and as well as any on the right side of the lower tube near the forend lug?

Is the "Nitro" stamp present on the tubes under the wood and is it block or script?

Is "Prussian"/"Germany" on the left side of the watertable as well as on the wood behind the pistol grip cap?

Krupp steel tubes and if so, what is the stamp past the "bullet" after "Krupp Lauf Stahl" a Gothic "J" or a script "W" in () - (W)? There should be a Kelber forge mark on both of the tubes.

The engraving really doesn't look like that of Fritz Heimbeck and I'd center a search around the oak leaves in the game scene.

What is rolled stamped on the right side of the top tube?

I could easily be wrong, but I don't think Gebrüder Adamy applied much effort to this example. And I'm not really sure that Richard Schüler performed a whole lot of work on the examples he was sourced for and that his "facility" was like all the rest in that he outsourced much of the work and the families of the same craftsmen who performed a specific task early-on on the Dalys are still contributing the effort. By the 1930s I'd guess that Richard Schüler's son Hans Schüler would have be an intergral part.

I forgot to note that there were others Suhl firms which used the advertising stamp "Sole U.S. Agents Sloans Sportings..." with one being Abesser & Merkel which was a partnership of Paul Abesser(I don't know of a F. Abesser yet) and Ernst Merkel, who received his master's sheepskin on August 14, 1929. I think it was a short lived venture in the 1920s and possibly 1930s which is the same time period we are concerned with for now.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/21/10 02:25 PM
Although there may be additional info, for the moment I can't find where German-American Frederick W. Hollender(Sole U.S. Importer), previous beer importer, of 245 Canal Street, New York had any strong ties to Charles Daly. But there are August Schüler O/U examples built on the Schüler Herkules action, which is noted in Patent 1105574 or 1.03.1930, with Charles Daly's name atop the rib. I think this patent more than likely was some modification to the Schüler Herkules as an August Schüler/Fred'k W. Hollender(Sole U.S. Importer) advert notes that a Model 6(Herkules O/U) won the world record in 1922 in breaking 199 or 200. Now on these unique actions, I'd say that Richard Schüler or his son Han Schüler contributed a large effort. O/U doubles were in vogue and common in the 1920s and 1930s.
I wouldn't omit Gebrüder Rempt/Remo from the equation as they had a comparable O/U action and they seem to be lurking in the shadows making components and longarms for the trade.

So today here's what I say about post WWI SxS & O/U Dalys: just because it an example has "Charles Daly" stamped atop the rib or engraved in gold on the sides of the frame doesn't mean that Richard Schüler made it. The example could have been sourcd from any of the aforementioned craftsmen and others, but I would first consider the owners of Charles Daly, or the name, and their original sourcing lines.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/22/10 01:50 AM
I knew I had seen another Daly SxS in the 26k range and I finally found in on page 14 of GGCA publication #26(Summer 2005 Volume 8, No.2). So Daly #2616x(SxS) would be #5 of those offered by Charles Daly with a serial number in the 26k range and wearing a proof date of 1931-1932. Mr. Fink had asked me which craftsman used the "M. Sch." stamp as his 20 bore O/U with a serial number of 266xx(O/U) has the stamp on the lower tube. Diamond Daly #2616x(SxS) in GGCA No. 26 also has the "M. Sch." stamp on the under side of the left tube. For now I guess that to be for Max Schleenstein who crossed paths with Heinrich Krieghoff while Heinrich was an apprentice and some sources indicate that Heinrich Krieghoff hired Max Schleenstein as his first employee. How was Max Schleenstein of Krieghoff sourced for effort on a couple of Dalys, I can't say. Maybe he was moonlighting? But the initials of "F.A." can also be found on the left flat on Daly Diamond #2616x(SxS) near the extractor and I want to think that is the mark of Franz Adamy. The same initals are found on Mr. Fink's 20 bore sideplated O/U Charles Daly dated December, 1932. So the craftsman "F.A." could easily offer both a SxS or O/U. Both Charles Dalys have a "W" inside a set of parans-(W) after the "bullet" on the "Krupp Lauf Stahl" stamp. Mr. Finks wears "Prussia" on the watertable while the Diamond Daly SxS has "Made in Prussia" on the right side of the watertable. Are the other possibilities for "M. Sch."? Yes and Moritz Schilling might fit the bill but there were also other stamps like "M.S.". Everyone thoroughly confused by now?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/08/10 11:41 PM


"Rifleman" February 1969. Anyone own this Daly or know the owner?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: eightbore Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/18/10 08:36 PM
Raimey, I had the "1930" Sloan catalog in my hands yesterday. A friend just received it from Pat. It includes the Model 37 Ithaca and other very late thirties items. My guess is that it is actually a 1937 to 1939 catalog.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/10 12:57 AM
Thanks eightbore for the contribution of effort to the cause. Do you recall any listing for German makers like Abesser(Paul) & Merkel(Ernst)? They appear to have been in business in the 1920s and early 1930s and had Sloan's listed as being "sole agents". One Abesser & Merkel drilling I've seen had ejectors on all tubes. Ernest Merkel attained the rank of master on August 14th, 1929. Speculation is that he was from the line of Friedrich Ernst Ferdinand Merkel. Paul Abesser must have been a master in order to found the firm.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/10 04:04 PM

#22100?


A little too much flash

Although I don't think the Charles Daly Regent Diamond Drilling was made by Lindner, it is a pretty nice example at GA # 919324477 . Thanks to Mr. Hallquist for his every watchful eye. I think Gebrüder Adamy made it. Schüler might be next in line as a possible source. But the more I read the less likely I think Schüler was the actual manufacture post WWI. He may have been the wholesaler, but he would have procured, or fab-ed, the components and then subed the work out to craftsmen who performed specific tasks. Some of the craftsmen would have been involved from the get-to.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/10 08:33 PM
Here's some info from a 1927 "Forest & Stream" advert: Gebr. Adamy Over- Under Shot Gun, $165; Three Barrel Adamy, $148.50. Also have in stock Trap Gun and Field Gun with single triggers; bargains. Sloans Sporting Goods Co.."

Evidently everything was on-sale.


Current production Drilling; Vierlings are also an option.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/22/10 01:13 AM
Many may tire of this infinite thread, but hopefully one day we'll have most of the Daly/Lindner/Sauer story. It seems that J.P. Sauer changed "sole agents" quite often as in 1892 Wiebusch & Hilger, Limited of 84 & 86 Chambers Street, New York were "sole agents": http://books.google.com/books?id=AEM9AAA...uhl&f=false .

As usual in searching for something else, I stumbled across the following info but haven't found the full document. Albeit a bit of opinion, I think it gives insight to the overall picture of the Daly/Lindner/Sauer relationship and should have been quite accurate seeing it was penned in the mid 1940s. The gist being the following:

Charles Daly had an idea, and apparently an accurate one, of what the American sportsman would hold in esteem and cherish. He travelled to England to procure a concern to build his American idea of a sporting scattergun. None of the British concerns would give him the time of day with respect to his idea of a longarm for the sportsman of the U.S. of A. So for some reason, and I speculate it was August Schoverling, he turned to Germany where he found a relatively unknown craftsman by the name of Lindner(I assumed the name was used loosely referring to Georg and later H.A.). I think it is here that the retailer/wholesaler/component source/craftsman model needs to be addressed. Lindner was the wholesaler and served as quality control before the examples were shipped to Schoverling, Daly & Gales. Lindner sourced the components and had craftsman to perform specific tasks and I think they continued to continue the same after the death of Lindner's son in 1915 with another wholesaler at the helm possibly with Lindner having a partial role. Conjecture from the mid 1940s has it that Lindner finished the upper rung models while the run of the mill Dalys were more or less completed at the Sauer facility and inspected by Lindner. Where the cut-off was, I can't say for now, maybe the 275 or 375?

Charles Daly's son, along with Gales, continued the business and it appears that both expired by 1925. It was then in 1927 or 1928 that Schoverling, Daly & Gales was sold to Davega Sporing Goods, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davega_Stores (I know some of you don't cotton to Wikipedia), while the Daly trademark was sold to Sloan's Sporting Goods at about the same time.

Then it looks like Davega Sporting Goods faltered in the early 1960s(1963) and Modell Sporting Goods absorbed them. Maybe that's the Modell Sporting Goods connection.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/22/10 11:38 PM
I've read several places including a Charles Daly site that in 1919(one source gave 1910 but may have been a typo) that Henry Modell purchased S,D&G but most give that the successor to S,D&D was I. & S.D. Davega, which was founded in either 1878 or 1879. And in 1927 or 1928 Sloan's Sporting Goods purchased the trademark/tradename Charles Daly so any longarm post say 1928 with Charles Daly on it would have passed thru Sloan's Sporting Good's books.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/11/10 02:49 PM
Re: Raimey's June 21 respone to my photo posting:
Paul Dever visited a week or so ago, and found some of the info requested marked on the barrels. Proof date is 8/25. "M Sch." is stamped on the lower barrel. Serial is 14912
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/11/10 03:06 PM
Terry, thanks for the effort and to whomever the initials "M.Sch." belong, he was quite busy post WWI up until the mid 1930s. 15k examples over 10 years at first sounds a bit much for production during the difficult post WWI period, but I guess it is possible. For now I don't think Schüler made it but it is possible he could have been the wholesaler who sourced the components and sub-ed the work. S,D&G's name and business was diced up and sold during this period and I'd continue to look toward Sloan's Sporting Goods and Adamy for the sourcing & work.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/05/11 01:13 PM
Griffin & Howe has an interesting Otto Bock SxS offering that looks Linder-eske(?):
http://www.griffinhowe.com/sgmoreinfo.cfm (select "Used Shotguns" & go to the Os.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/18/11 01:53 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr

Charles Daly's son, along with Gales, continued the business and it appears that both expired by 1925. It was then in 1927 or 1928 that Schoverling, Daly & Gales was sold to Davega Sporing Goods, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davega_Stores (I know some of you don't cotton to Wikipedia), while the Daly trademark was sold to Sloan's Sporting Goods at about the same time.

Then it looks like Davega Sporting Goods faltered in the early 1960s(1963) and Modell Sporting Goods absorbed them. Maybe that's the Modell Sporting Goods connection.


Ok, still sorting the chaff but it appears that in 1926 the Knickerbocker Talking Machine Company, owned/ran/governed by Abram Davega, son if I. Davega, absorbed Schovering, Daly & Gales and the result was Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales and a reprint is available at Cornell Publications:
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=415 The venture must have been short lived.

Also wanted to cross reference the Joseph Jakob thread:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=235883&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/11 03:07 AM
All right, here's what my Magic 8 Ball says. But before that let me recap a bit. Schoverling & Daly was founded in either 1862 or most give 1865. In 1868 Friedrich Wiebusch was listed as a silent or special partner and he expired in 1893, 2 years after August Schoverling. I'm fairly confident that Friedrich Wiebusch was founding partner in Wiebusch & Hilger(Hilger & Co. founded in 1848??) which arrived on the scene around 1876 and continued till say 1928. After Friedrich Wiebusch expired, Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig were at the helm and were mainly blade peddlers. In 1892, about the time they were listed as the sole Sauer agents, they were in a tiff with the U.S. of A. over bowie knives, which they considered to be sidearms but the government didn't see it that way & they lost. The seem to have drug in some Belgian arms also and all appears to have left port at Antwerp. Getting back on track, in 1869/1870 Schoverling & Daly advertised as being an agent of William Powell & Sons and the scattergun in the advert looks to have the lifter action but the verbiage is as follows:
"4 systems - Lever Under Guard Double Grip, Side Snap, Top Snap Double Bolt & New Triple Fastening" and I am pleased to see
B. Jacob of Selma, Alabama as an agent. I think it was in 1871 or 1877 as I've gotten my dates crossed but surely in the 1870s, SD&G had a satellite office at No. 65 Weaman Street, Birmingham and that seems to be the address of Tolley. Schoverling & Daly were involved in several import/retail houses and just like the tale that Charles Daly spun on the stand in the early 1890s(A. Schovering possibly would have been in the hot seat but he was on holiday in Germany where he expired) it seems that components were being imported as follows as all along with others were listed as agents of Schoverling & Daly:
Tubes to William R. Schaefer was located 61 Elm Street, Boston, Massachusetts;
Locks & Traps to Thomas L. Golcher 116 West Girard Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania(Joseph Jakob was also in Philly);
& Stocks/wood to Schoverling & Daly in New York. This would explain how all those similar components landed up on American assembled sporting weapons from the period. Now the possibility exists there were other import houses but these were Schoverling & Daly agents in the cities where the imports arrived. Schoverling & Daly advertised the "Daly Gun" as an import gun but then when the import tariffs were imposed the "Daly Gun" was a homegrown sporting weapon. Then in 1879 bicycle peddler Joseph Gales was added to the management.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/11 12:53 PM
Raimey, I would wonder if C E Overbaugh of 265 and 267 Broadway, NYC, might also have been an agent. Their catalog ca. 1886 appears similar to S D and G. I have their double barrel hammer gun which is also a Lindner import.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/11 01:45 PM
Mr. Hallquist, it is possible. Let me see if he was an agent.(I see an E.S. Phelps of Rochester, NY but no C.E. Overbaugh in the early to mid 1870s)
Heindrick August Schoverling was a partner, senior member more than likely, of at least one if not all of the import/retail houses/concerns until 1888 at the age of 48 when he was diagnosed with heart disease. From the remainder of his life he tooled around Europe until a cold turned to pneumonia in Dsseldorf on the Rhine. Earlier in 1859 he began his journey as he departed Osnabrck, Hannover and immigrated to NY where he secured empolyment at Hermann Boker & Company, the same firm where Charles Daly was an employee. By the early 1860 he was head of the firearms department and in 1865 he & Daly left Hermann Boker & Company to hang out a single shingle bearing the name Schoverling & Daly. I don't think he had a stake in Hermann Boker & Company. According to testimony they operated their own import/retail house in the 1880s. Can you tell me if C.E. Overbaugh offered a Body Action/A&D in 1886? All these Scott Action hammergun types and Lindner Body Action/A&D types could have easily permeated the U.S. of A. gun making network from the 3 import nodes. Me thinks it was 1883 when the import laws began to put a crimp on their business? - http://www.archive.org/stream/usimportdutiesun00unitrich#page/132/mode/2up

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/11 02:28 PM
By 1885 Charles E. Overbaugh was next door neighbours to Schoverling, Daly & Gales and had to be an agent as in the early 1880s Schoverling, Daly & Gales were handling Henri Pieper's wares and this 1885 Charles E. Overbaugh gives many of the items Schoverling, Daly & Gales were peddling, especially the "Charles Daly Gun": http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=544

DGS C.E. Overbaugh thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...d0ddaf743c433a0

The tube knitter with initials "LE" seems common on early Charles Daly sporting weapons as well as those of C.E. Overbaugh. I had assumed(assumption is the antithesis of exactitude) that maybe some else was keeping a talley of all the Lindner like tube knitter initials on U.S. of A. maker's scatterguns but I may need to browse thru this thread and fetch them all out.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
Rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/19/11 02:48 PM
Raimey, I see the Winchester Model 1887 in the catalog, so it is around that date. Also the catalog says that Overbaugh has all of the Sharps long rang actions that are left , as Sharps has gone out of business.

The catalog offers the Harrington and Richardson A and D guns in 5 grades. Maybe somewhat odd as H and R quit making the guns possibly a couple of years before.

Daly hammerless A and D guns are offered in 5 grades from $110-$225 , the latter Diamond quality. The guns sport cocking indicators.

Daly hammer guns are offered with the Scott action and Deeley and Edge forend latch. Extension rib and slight engraving on Model 401 for $70. Model 402 same as 401, but with Purdey double bolt at $80. Model 403 same as 402 but with 3 pin lock and more engraving at $90. Model 404 same as 403, but with Cluny Damascus , fine engravin, at $120. Model 405 , Diamond Quality, with Bernard or Turkish first quality barrels, exquisite engraving at $200.

Also offered was a Daly three barrel gun peninsula locks, rib extension, at $75.

I note the catalog has pictured the Baker Model of Ithaca Gun Co. hammer gun. This model was changed in 1888, as I recall, so catalog date of 1887-88 is my best guess.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 12:01 AM
Yes, those are the same descriptions in the 1870/1871 Schoverling & Daly advert. The 3 pin configuration is the breaking point from lower run to upper rung. The following image of the Golcher with U.S. of A. Patent #95998:


is the same as image in the hammergun in the 1871 Schoverling & Daly advert.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=c31LAAA...869&f=false

And here's what I guess: Daly was sourcing components or parts kits from W&C Scott of Birmingham until late 1870 or 1871 when he established his "factory" in Suhl, which was just having Georg Lindner to subcontract the work using components sourced from W&C Scott. Prior to that he may have been having the work performed by American craftsmen like Golcher & Overbaugh but the marks on those pre-1870/1871, or lack thereof, may answer the question of effort sourcing. Or, he may have been having William & Charles Scott manufacture his wares. Joe Wood may have a Daly Gun that is the missing link.

Mr. Hallquist's Daly gun is an early one and probably pre-1874, or when H.A. Lindner commenced applying his quality control mark.





Possibly Albert Stobbe(founded 1865) if "A.S."





Possibly a forerunning to the Lindner-Daly wide forend hanger.

Then there's the George Golcher & other Golchers in the mix:







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 12:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist

The catalog offers the Harrington and Richardson A and D guns in 5 grades. Maybe somewhat odd as H and R quit making the guns possibly a couple of years before.


From what I've read the Gilbert H. Harrington & William A. Richardson Body Actions/A&Ds were manufactured from 1880 till 1887 when they patented some type of safety hammerless scattergun. Then in January of 1888 they reorganized into the Harrington & Richardson Arms Company and may have ceased manufacture then.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 03:15 AM
Mr. Hallquist's Charles E. Overbaugh & Company NY but I can't see the serial number:







T. Golcher on top?



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116218&page=1

Joe Wood's latest acquisition with serial number 15251:



A little pic heavy so more below.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 03:23 AM
More image of Joe's prize and his W&C Scott below:
















W&C Scott from 1870

The serial number of 1525x, Birmingham preliminary proofs and "STUB" stamps hints at a Birmingham origin and William & Charles Scott. Some may say ah, Charles Daly could have sourced the components from from Sauer and yes Sauer peddled sporting weapons from (1862)1865-1872 time period with examples like Onion & Wheelock percussion also having Sauer's name on them. But Sauer as we know it was organized till early 1873. So Schoveling & Daly, H.A. Lindner & Sauer all really began to grow their roots in the early 1870s. Daly may have been the reason, possibly thru contacts of Hermann Boker and/or August Schoverling, for the cash infusion and subsequent expansion during this period. I think W&C Scott may be responsible for the "bump" on the forend???

Understanding Charles Daly & the gun trade, I'm going to speculate that brothers Golcher, Jakob, Overbaugh, etc. were agents or associates in Schoverling & Daly. After establishing his "factory" in Suhl, which was more like an infusion of funds, he had the Lindners to facilitate effort sourcing on the orders with either homegrown or imported components and had their name roll stamped or engraved on the sporting weapon that they were going to peddle. Take George Fisher for example. He was a porter in the firm and may have attained a higher rank at some point. But after he expired, Charles Daly had guns made with his name roll stamped on the top rib. I think the same for Wiebusch & Hilger( Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig ). Very little effort was applied on this side of the pond with the names atop being pretty much firearms merchants.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 04:02 PM
Raimey, thanks for all the pics. You can E.P. Taylor, 72 E. Madison St., Chicago, to the list of Daly shotgun sellers. This is from an April 28, 1877, ad.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 09:26 PM
Thanks & I'll add him. More images of tunes' Charles Daly with the Golcher lifter, which only differs by a couple hundred in the serial number vs. Joe Wood's:

Joe's Lock above

Looks to be almost identical locks=same lockmaker???








Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/20/11 10:21 PM
Joe Wood's W&C Scott and Charles Daly:









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/21/11 05:04 PM
I've glanced thru some of the threads and found these hammer doubles:

Charles Daly 10 Bore 162
Charles Daly 10 bore 601 has CFW initials
Charles Daly 10 bore 796 with Jones Underlever was made in late 1871 or in 1872
C.F. Schilling St. Louis 953 with AS on left tube with AH in Action well
Charles Daly 10 bore 1033 has wide forend latch Deeley & Edge but not Lindner marks
Charles Daly 1092 with RS on tube and AR in action well
Thomas L. Golcher 1120 2 barrel set(No. 134?) - McPhail
Charles Daly 20 bore 125x possibly with English preliminary
Charles Daly 1366 has AS
Charles Green Rochester NY has AS
Charles Daly 10 bore 1569 has KS and no Lindner marks
Thomas Golcher 1662 no initials but H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas Golcher 1741 has RS and H.A. Lindner stamps
Charles Daly 10 bore 1846 has H.A. Lindner's stamps
Charles Daly 10 bore 2015 has KS & H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas L. Golcher - 212x with H.A. Lindner stamps
George W. Golcher 2187 no initials but H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas Golcher 2403 has KS and H.A. Lindner stamps
Joseph Jakob 2962 has H.A. Lindner stamps A&D Brevete #1152
Joseph Jakob 3246 has H.A. Lindner stamps
Joseph Jakob 3241? in calibre 40-82
Charles Overbaugh 3474 has RS and H.A. Lindner stamps


Any others? Dr. McPhail any more info on the Charles Green? Jon S. any additional info on 1366 like bore size and forend latch type?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: reb87 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/22/11 12:13 AM
My WM Schaefer and Sons. Ill have to pull the lock later


Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/24/11 02:48 PM
Thanks for the effort.

I was chasing The Daly Gun and veered off on a William Richard Schaefer tangent and thought Dr. McPhail might have some input. In 1853 William R. Schaefer hung out his gunmaking shingle in Boston at 11 Dock Square(House?). Interesting that this is also where Fred. G. Doell hailed from while William Richard Schaefer was at No. 61 Elm Street. In 1858 his is still at the same location, 11 Dock Square, as before per the Boston Directory. By 1868 he had partnered with J. Fredrick Werner to advertise as W.R. Schaefer & J. Fred. Werner Boston. It must have been somewhat short lived as in 1871 his address is No. 61 Elm Street, Boston where he advertises as being adept to re-boring scatterguns, which was a very new topic at the time. Even though a Schoverling, Daly & Gales catalogue? gives that the rights to the Ballard rifle were purchase by Schoverling & Daly in 1876, it appears that the acquistion was actually in 1873 and this may be what paired Schoverling & Daly with William R. Schaefer, who was listed as a Schoverling & Daly agent in 1877. William R. Schaefer was a superb shot and offered an Improved Ballard Rifle in 1876/1877 while advertising as "guns bored to shoot close and hard." W. R. Schaefer donated prize money for shooting events and in 1878/1879 donated a Daly Gun for an event. The 6 1/2 P.G. Ballard Rifle with Rigby pattern tube in 38-50 arrived on the scene about 1880 and I'm curious if W.R. Schaefer was involved. The organization of W. R. Schaefer & Son occurred in the 1881/1882 time period when J.R.F. Schaefer came aboard. In the next few years another son, Richard F. Schaefer, joined their ranks and the looks to have reflected it in advertising as W.R. Schaefer & Sons. Richard F. Schaefer, Dick as he was known, like his father was quite the shot and by age 17 could put on quite the exhibition of glass ball shooting at the Raymond Sportsman's Club in Melford, Massachusetts But this too was short lived and by 1890 there was a divorce with Richard F. Schaefer leaving William R. Schaefer & J.R.F. Schaefer at the helm. From here, Richard F. Schaefer's life doesn't appear to be a smooth one as he bounced around from city to city and on July 21st of 1909 was a clerk at a hotel in Norway, Me.(Maine?) he committed sucide abandoning a wife & son. I can't say if they were still a family unit or not but it would seem that William R. Schaefer would have taken in his daugher-in-law & grandson. Another interesting tid-bit is that just a few days later on July 23rd,1909, Fred. G. Doell also expired after a long bout with poor health. William R. Schaefer may have been a cock fighter or really liked chicken as in a 1900 advert, he promotes the wares of the Cyphers Incubator Company. Probably just the latter as he was peddling dunghills and/or showing dunghills. He may still have been active in 1917.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/24/11 11:10 PM
I forgot an item or 2 but I wanted to expand on the adverts of "guns bored to shoot close and hard." One item was that it appears that Wililam R. Schaefer rented his business space at No. 61 Elm Street, Boston and there was an incident on February 19th, 1893 at 9 past 6 o'clock in the evening that a careless match was tossed into some packing material and the fire brigade was called out. The owner was given as R.E. Denman.

Regarding choke boring, a one sided tale by Joseph W. Long in 1879 has that Fred Kimble was responsible for the advancement of choke boring. I think the topic has been discussed here, possibly ad nauseum, so all this may be spilt milk. But in the 1869-1870 hunting season, Fred Kimble and hunting partner Joseph W. Long decide to source heavier 12 bore muzzleloaders from Oliver P. Secor of Peoria, Illinois. Oilver P. Secor was born circa 1816 in New York and more than likely learned the gun trade there also. But since Mr. Joseph W. Long was from Boston he opted to have Mr. Joseph Tonks build his muzzleloader so somewhat of a contest arose for the sporting weapons with the better pattern, with both patterns to be forwarded via the post. But Joseph Tonks refused and convinced Joseph W. Long to have a breechloader built. A short while later, Joseph W. Long notes that he souced both Messieurs "Tonks and W. R. Schaefer" for choke bored scatterguns.

Fred Kimble's account of the origins of choke boring are a bit different and involved his practicing with musket barrels for choke boring. Evidently he had conveyed the technique to Oliver P. Secor as well as J.L. Johnson, who was some what physically challenged from choke boring so Fred Kimble would execute the pattern effort after the boring. In Iowa, choke boring was attributed to Mr. W. Ehrman, who along with a George R. Conrad travelled to Young America, Illinois in 1872 on an invitation by Fred Kimble, I assume, to watch gunsmith J.L. Johnson at work. A short time later an agent or sales rep. of Schovering & Daly was in his shop watching the exercise and noted that it was an exercise in futility so W. Ehrman suggest the jug choke. Folklore has it that the technology was transferred to The Daly Gun factory where W. Ehrman's method became a staple. Somewhere around 1882 or 1883 Mr. W. Ehrman's heath really began to deteriorate due to the choke boring, but he was purported to be one of the best.

So either of these tales could have been the conduit for the transfer or technology of choke boring from the Mid-West to Daly's "factory" in Suhl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/11 02:40 PM
A snippet from an 1881/1882 Schovering, Daly & Gales advert noting they are the agents for H. Piper in the U.S. of A. & Canada.

A public trial of sorts/contest was held in Cleve, Prussia in August of 1881 as a competition for pattern density & penetration test at 30, 45 & 60 yards using #2, #4, #6 and #8 size shot. Among the judges/jury were Kliumm and Keyssler/Keysaler as Royal Inspectors of Forests and Heise as an Inspector of Powder at Kln. The new Diana Pieper sporting weapons achieved excellent marks at the top followed by an H. Roedel of Prague sourced from Pieper, W.W. Greener in 3rd place followed by N. Bodson Liege and C. Bartles Wiesbaden. H. Roedel's Piper example actually performed better at 45 yards than did H. Pieper's Diana and sources give he was in Prague from around 1870 to 1881. Interesting that a Heuse-Lemoine was in 13th place.

Thread on the 1881 H. Pieper Model Diana:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220155&page=1


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/09/11 12:45 PM
Charles Daly 10 bore hammergun in the 157xx serial number range:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245703601










Then encircled PB is the same as that of Joe Wood's latest acquisition and in the same location. But the stamp on Joe Wood's appears to have a couple of efforts.



I'll wager a bet that the Golchers, etc., that are in the 15xxxx range are all from a single source and were completed for the most part, maybe less embellishment, in Suhl, maybe in Georg Lindner's shop, and then forwarded on to the respective firearms merchant in the U.S. of A. At this point I don't think the encircled PB to represent a German mechanic. Anyone know of a subcontractor to W&C Scott with the initials of PB? Or if Joel P. Brandon of London was a tube knitter or was somehow paired with W&C Scott? Any other guess on a British tube knitter with the initials PB?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Phail Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/09/11 09:59 PM
Raimey,just got back from vacation so behind on this tread. Great info on Schaefer-many Hammer Schaefers engraved by Nimscke
Latter one's made on Barrelled Actions-have one with Belgian action. Much detailed info @ choke trials in " American Wildfowl
Shooting" by J W Long (1879)-discusses Kimble,Tonks Secor and Schaefer guns and their paterns
You have listed Green and Schilling Guns I have. Also Thomas L
Goulcher hammer two BBL set 12/10 #1120 on action and BBl flats
no Linder Markings but Linder gun. You have pictures of these guns on the CD-you are welcome to post if you like.
Thanks for your post
Bill
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/09/11 11:09 PM
Thanks Dr. McPhail. Were you at a Pine pruning symposium by chance? I'll try to get the images up tonight. Who has examples by Secor?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Phail Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/09/11 11:28 PM
Raimey-took that course a long time ago-now taking pole growing-
more money in poles. Thre is a Secor on the CD-11 ga Single M/l
original American Case-Mint Gun
Reguards
Bill
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/10/11 02:36 AM
I meant to add this sometime back but I'm going to post it before I forget. Schoverling, Daly & Gales searched for the best and brightest to help drive their firm. They advertised in Harvard & Yale publications and seemed to draw from those pools.

William Herbert Crawford passed the Harvard entrance exam a year early and was very active in athletics. Against the wishes of his family he left Harvard during his Sophomore year to join Schoverlnig, Daly & Gales where he remained until 1884, when he moved on to real-estate.

For now I can't say where William Sherer, Jr. was educated, but he learned from the best as he was an apprentice to Alonzo Alford, who is considered as a pioneer in the New York gun trade. In the early 1880s, William Sherer, Jr. joined the Schoverling, Daly & Gales firm and remained there till 1889 when he became an employee of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, where he remained for some 23 years. He was the Far East(Eastern portion of the world reached by ship) salesman.

Alonzo Alford was born on January 28th, 1837 to Ammi and Clarissa G. White Alford in Brooklyn, New York. Having 20 years, he began with A.G. Strong a Burlington hardware merchant. In 1863 he moved to New York and found employment at Merwin & Bray, which later became Merwin, Hulbert & Company. Somehow he migrated to the Ballard Rifle Manufacturing Company attaining the rank of treasure as well as manager. About the same time he was a founder in Alford, Berkele & Clapp which was a New York agent from Eliphalet Remington & Sons. In 1871 he held the position of general manager at the Eliphalet Remington & Sons New York warerooms. In 1878/1879 Eliphalet Remington & Sons experienced some sort of turmoil and Alonzo Alford purchased some part, maybe just the NY branch, which he owned for 2 years before selling it back. In 1881 he resigned and purchased a large interest in a Massachusetts tool and knife manufacture with New York warerooms, which in 1883 was incorporated as the Alford & Berkele Company.

I realize that neither of brothers Alford worked for Schovering, Daly & Gales, but bear with me as the relationships put the gun trade into perspective. Alonzo Alford's borther Albert Gallatin Alford was born on October 14th, 1847. Evidently one of their parents, or both, died while he was yet a boy. Bootstrapping himself thru a stint with the U.S. of A. Engineer Corps, he became the manager of Eliphalet Remington & Sons Chicago retail outlet and then the Baltimore wearroom from 1874 to 1883, when he founded the A.G. Alford Sporting Goods Company. And remember the Samuel Norris(Eliphalet Remington agent)-Mauser debacle.

Back to Schoverling, Daly & Gales and much later in 1899 after Charles Daly's death, on November 25th, 1899 Schoverling, Daly & Gales was incorporated by Jospeh Gales of Elizabeth, New Jersey, Ella Daly King of East Orange, New Jersey and Theodore William Stake of New York City. William Theodore Stake was born in 1861 in NY City but educated in London and then Canada. He was vice president in 1915 and VP, secretary & director in 1918 after Joseph Gales' expiring on June 3rd, 1916(born April 29th, 1847). Some concern, maybe S,D&G offered a scattergun with the tradename T.W. Stake.

Frederic J. Wilbur was a director in 1914.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/23/11 07:07 PM
A hammer scattergun wearing #15810 made it to my door yesterday. It has "Charles Daly Fine Damascus Barrels" on the top rib. No Daly on the locks or anywhere else. 71cm tubes with initials "SA" near the forend hanger and an interesting brace of Sauer-esk Ss along with the early Imperial Eagle found on early Sauers. As it has been said there doesn't appear to be a limit to the number of variations of the Daly peddled guns. I haven't weighed it yet but it seems to be pretty heavy so I fancy a round with it Friday when duck season opens. I engaged it with some Boat-tail Grackles this a.m.







Also interesting is a plug where there appears to have been a swivel just forward of the oval. But I don't see any sign of one being removed from the tubeset so I wonder if there was another set of tubes.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/23/11 10:00 PM
Raimey, here's a picture of my Daly's lock, #15,251 with the Birmingham proofs. What'cha think about the similarity? And the barrels were finished in a deep brown.





If W.&C. Scott had anything to do with the manufacture of this Daly the serial number, 15,251 fits nicely with the table published by Crawford. He indicates about 1871. The style of your gun and mine certainly seems to be in that period. Adding to that, mine has British proofs and the barrels were finished brown. All parts, including the buttplate, carry the same number and appear to have been struck with the same die stamps.



Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/24/11 02:34 AM
Same here on the location of the serial numbers, or last 3 digits. The date seems a bit early for Daly but then again if it was purchased in the white, or from components, it would have taken some time to travel. And it was in 1873 that Sauer has it's sporting weapons origins. I think it was in the early 1870s that Charles Daly went to the Brits but they didn't gee-haw as the Brits didn't want to hear what Daly wanted them to make and Daly didn't like what the Brits wanted to sell. So it is entirely possibly that he decided to acquire the components and travel to Suhl to have the sporting longarms finished to his desires/specifications. In hindsight, he knew exactly what he was doing. It will just take time to piece together what that was. I'm curious how many Daly examples are in the 15k range and if he had a contract with a Birmingham firm for tubes with his name atop.

Fast forward to 1907 and Schoverling, Daly & Gales look to have British patent #22946 for a single selective trigger with W. Fairweather as their agent. I couldn't conjure the patent so I was wondering if anyone else had seen it or if there were any Daly's with the single selective trigger?

And another 1903 tid-bit of info. I think it was in 1902 that John Browning went to Belgium to get FN to build the Auto5. By Fall of 1903 S,D&D had ordered 10k copies and sold them by Fall of 1904. I'd say that's a pretty stout Charles Daly-FN connection/relationship.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: eightbore Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/24/11 03:11 PM
Raimey, for your information, the 1662 Golcher on your list is a 16 gauge, and the 1741 Golcher is a 10 gauge.
Posted By: R. Glenz Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/25/11 02:08 PM
Raimey,for your list,I have a 10 bore C.F.Schilling,St.Louis.It's nearly a twin to Dr. McPhails,643 on the action flat and other metal parts,A.S. on right tube,no other marks.

All The Best,
Ric
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/25/11 02:43 PM
eightbore, so noted and thanks for the info.

Ric, thanks for the effort and what might the tubeset length be. I would say that Charles Daly sourced the longarm in white from Georg Lindner who in turned sourced Albert Stobbe, who hung out his shingle in 1865. He had a son named Rudolf Stobbe, which adds to the complexity of the RS initials.

What I can't make sense of is how Henry Modell factors into the equation. I don't even think the owners of the defunct Charles Daly info page even know the true story. Hungarian immigrant Morris Modell entered the U.S. of A. in the early 1880s and by 1889 had his own clothing cart, which he quickly turned into an actual business with a true address. He peddled items to servicemen on leave and actually is purported to have outfitted Roosevelt & his contingent in the Spanish-American war. During WWI Morris' son Henry(1 of 7) was drafted, and I've seen his draft card somewhere, and when he returned sometime between 1917 & 1919 he inherited the firm and looks to have incorporated it as Henry Modell Company, Inc. He became president in 1920. The concern seems strongly centered around clothing & surplus and not sporting arms, but it is possible. I think the sporting goods aspect was added when they acquired the Davega concern.

I don't think Charles Howard Daly was truly at the helm until after Joseph Gales death, and then he more than likely was just a director and secretary. It seems that Theodore W. Stake was still in control. But it is possible in the 1917-1919 period that Henry Modell injected cash into the concern but it appears he had his hands full in taking surplus WWI military items and turning them into useful civilian wares as the country was headed toward a depression. After Charles Howard Daly's demise in 1924, negotiations with the Davega concern added Schoverling, Daly & Gales under their umbrella resulting in March of 1927 in the name Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales, possibly less the Charles Daly trademark name which went to Sloan's Department stores a year later. I'm not sure if the Charles Daly trademark was separated from Schoverling, Daly & Gales prior to the purchase by Davega or not. In 1963 Henry Modell purchased the bankrupt Davega concern. It would seem that post 1928 that a sporting arm wearing the Charles Daly trademark name would have passed thru Sloan's Department stores.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: R. Glenz Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/25/11 04:12 PM
Thank you Raimey,i find this intersting,the barrel length is 30 and 3/16 inches.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/26/11 01:15 PM
Hum, that would be something like 76.7cm so I wonder if a little had been shaved off or if at that time the Belgian/British tube makers rolled them to that length?

Joe & I have had a side-bar going and he has discovered that the rib on his Daly in the 15k range is brazed rather than soldered.

As pure, unadulterated conjecture, I think when Charles Daly went to England having a contract on X number of scatterguns, let's say 100 just for numbers sake. I think he had 3 options in mind: source the longarms from the Brits, source components and/or longarms in the white and have them completed in the U.S. of A. or since labour was cheaper, source them as above and utilize European craftsmen. So when he and the Brits didn't gee-haw he picked up his toys and took them to Suhl where Georg Lindner said sure, tell or show us what you desire and we'll make it so. It probably took a couple of renditions but one rolled out to Charles Daly's specifications. After they exhausted the original supply of longarms in the white then they began sourcing from the continent.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: R. Glenz Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/27/11 02:20 AM
Well,it's pretty light for a 10 bore(7lbs.11oz.),maybe 30" was spec and the maker made darn sure! Pure speculation on my part,but the muzzle looks original.

Best,Ric
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/29/11 03:30 AM


I'm curious what the "Monte Carlo Cross Bolt" might be and if it is 2 separate terms? Note the 1897 cable address: Owlish.

Davega Sporting Goods purchased Schoverling, Daly & Gales in November of 1926 and it appears that Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales hit the rocks by 1928 and sunk never to rise again.

I don't have all the S,D&G catalogues but it appears that from 1918 onward that Charles Daly guns or "Daly Guns" don't appear in the adverts. So give an explanation that H.A. Lindner had closed his shop but it may be that the trademark Charles Daly & Schoverling, Daly and Gales were divorced at this time and it may have been Sloan's Sporting Goods had purchased the trademark name but Charles Daly, inc and the Daly trademark don't seem to surface till 1927. Others speculate that Sloan's Sporting Goods acquired the name from Davega Sporting Goods but it appears to be earlier. Anyone have the S,D&G catalogues from 1918 till 1926 to comment if a Daly sporting arm, Regent, Sextuple, etc. was offered?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/04/11 02:19 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ia9QAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA31&lpg=RA4-PA31&dq=anson+%26+deeley+brevete&source=bl&ots=4KB63G6uz5&sig=UpNIH_BIOgm3HG1AEIyl4-ipUR8&hl=en&ei=z4DbTvzPBYLBtgfKmIXtAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q&f=false
(copy & paste for some reason)

Marc, is this the original A&D patent filed in France or is it the improvement?

http://books.google.com/books?id=43gAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=anson+%26+deeley+brevete&source=bl&ots=4SkcSGqlda&sig=GOoGT0TZlz5A3yL7_nbog6nMfmE&hl=en&ei=z4DbTvzPBYLBtgfKmIXtAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/08/11 02:46 PM
Interesting Nov. 1912 Forest & Stream Schoverling, Daly & Gales used sporting weapon advert(704-707):
http://books.google.com/books?id=nUkcAQA...gun&f=false
Anyone own one of the listed serial numbers?

Gives a new & used price comparison for the time. Also of note is the Manhattan offerings. I wonder if pre 1900 or pre 1891 if Sauer had churned out most of the examples and then lower cost thru mechanization lead S,D & G to Liege. I just haven't seen enough Manhattan's with Belgian touchmarks to say.

Last I am curious if this Charles Daly featherweight is post WWI, a special order or thru another source other than H.A. Lindner:
http://www.merzantique.com/item.php?id=5202_0_2_0

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/09/11 02:53 PM
All right I have realized the sourced of the 1919 Henry Modell acquisition of S,D&H info and it was the NRA. Mr. Wes Fink of Daytona, Florida had given me the reference at one time but I can't seem to find it. I have performed somewhat of an extensive search and I just don't think that to be the case. Now around this time Henry Modell as a director on the board for the Smaller Businesses of New York, or something like that, & they dolled out cash and it may have been here that some cash was injected into the stumbling S,D&G. But until Theodore W. Stake is out of the picture, along with his sidekick Charles Howard Daly, I don't see it happening. Anyone know of the NRA reference and their source?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/09/11 03:25 PM
Raimey, I don't find Charles Daly guns in SD%G Catalogs of 1919 and 1918. Do Daly guns appear in later VL%A or VL&D catalogs ?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/09/11 03:50 PM
Just in searching and not having the catalgoues in hand, I haven't seen Charles Daly guns in the 1918, 1921 or 1923 but the name reappears in the 1926 and subsequent Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales of 1927. Many times the Charles Daly name is associated with the SBT Sextuple offerings. Also there appears to be a gun catagloue and a gun parts catalogue but in each year it could have been one or the other. Thanks for any effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Cary Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/09/11 06:04 PM
Raimey- I viewed that gun (or it's twinn) in Vegas last year. I didn't pull the forearm to look for HAL's halmark but Leroy showed it to me when I was pestering him about Lindners. What a beautiful gun.

Call Leroy's shop and ask them to check for the marks. They're great people but they're Winchester experts. You may have to coach them on recognising whether or not it's a Lindner. By the way, I've bought from Leroy in the past and could not pick a better dealer. Wouldn't hesitate to buy from him again.

What do you think of the price?
Posted By: eightbore Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/09/11 09:51 PM
Raimey, I have a beautiful 1921 SD&G catalog that has no Charles Daly guns in it. I wonder if they had another catalog that included their "fine guns"?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/09/11 10:13 PM
No, I think it is as I have surmised that the tradename Charles Daly & the company Schoverling, Daly & Gales split, and they may have split in the 1916-1919 period. But odd that Charles Daly SBT appear in the 1926 version just before Davega acquires S,D&G in November 1926 I think.

Cary thanks for the direction and on price, I've pondered it for a time and still am a bit perplexed. It seems to take me aback as do the Luftwaffa Sauer Drillings at 25k U.S. of A., in pristine condition of course

Thanks for all the assistance, fellas.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/10/11 02:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
Raimey, I don't find Charles Daly guns in SD%G Catalogs of 1919 and 1918. Do Daly guns appear in later VL%A or VL&D catalogs ?


I had a similar question but mine was more centered around the offerings of Sloan's Department store. Something's amiss. In 1919/1920 The Henry Modell Company was peddling surplus government underware & taking GI tents and making shirts/pants, something of the like. They were in the garment business. I've read several consumer letters where Theodore W. Stake answers in 1918-1920 that S,D&G has the stock, they can obtain an order, etc. and that in 1919 they are going to keep their prices at pre-1918 levels. Translating this Polish version says that Sloan's purchased it in 1919: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Daly . Could be a typo and I don't think anyone knows the rest of the story just yet. But I will tell/restate this. Post 1919 - the Brothers Adamy seem to be the source for upper rung offerings thru Sloan's and I'm fairly confident that they were heavily relied on for their superb talent, which is even evident today. I'd purge the boys Schler from list of possibilities as they seem to be fluff and just trying to get a foot in the door. Once again the maker seems to be an unsung craftsman.

Thanks to a very obliging member I have now seen a 1926 proofed SBT with both an RS and HAL over crossed sidearms. Sure one could say that it was leftover stock regarding H.A. Lindner & RS, which I think with high probability to be Robert Schlegelmilch of Meiningen. As Ken notes S,D&G finally and rigidly re-established ties to Germany in 1924 after WWI. It was about that same year that Robert Schlegelmilch closed his business. I would say that there was a supply of tubes and with Lindner's control mark at least 1 last sporting arm was completed under his every watchful eye. I'll try to get some images posted.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/11/11 03:20 PM
Lindner SBT 15xxx proofed in very late 1926. I am curious if any sporting arms from 1926 on had Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales? Of course there isn't a safety. Charles Daly is on the sides of frame(correction). So I wonder if that means anything regarding the possible/purported divergence of the Charles Daly trademark & Schoverling, Daly & Gales.





There's that little demonic "k" in a rhombus that along with the Sl stamp that plagues me for now.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 02/02/12 02:27 AM
Griffin & Howe has a Belgian T.(Theodore) W. Stake in their offerings:

http://www.griffinhowe.com/usedgun-sg.cfm



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/25/12 09:25 PM










How about this Lindner Daly trap that Hyatt's recently had on one of the auction sites?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/25/12 09:29 PM
Ok, who purchased this 24 bore Lindner-Daly as lot 1190A at Julia's recent March auction: http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_320.asp?pageREQ=1









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/25/12 09:53 PM
Raimey , I agree with your hypothesis on the "left over" guns. The war did not stop production of guns destined for America from Germany at the exact moment all guns were complete and ready for shipment. Many must have been partially done and then finished after the war. We see this in British guns, too. A Beesely I had was started in 1911 and completed over 10 years later. I think I remember seeing those Daly Trap Guns offered in the teens, then the offerings stopped. Later, in the mid 20s, as I recall without looking things up, the same trap gun models reappear, Sextuples and others.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/31/12 02:01 AM
Thanks Mr. Hallquist for the insight thru comparison. I would guess the "left-overs" to be in the same serial number sequence then when the models resurface an odd sequence, or series of sequences, appears because SD&G/Schler(??)/whoever had to develop new sourcing lines. With Joseph Gales expiring near June 1916, little of the original merry band of firearms merchants, probably on both sides of the pond, exists so I guess sourcing to be along any lines possible.

Joe:
From adverts, the Daly Suhl gun factory was established in 1871 so very easily Charles Daly could have lugged a sack full of Scott assemblies or components to the Suhl factory to be finished. Ken probably has a better idea, but it would seem the Charles Daly A&D boxlocks with upper and lower scears arrive on the scene circa 1885.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 03/31/12 01:52 PM
In the early 1880s we see Daly advertising guns with rebounding hammers on the Scott action.

We also, at this time, see SD&G ads that disparage Schilling made guns and deny that Daly uses them. I think it is commonly accepted, though, that Schilling made drillings for Daly at sometime during their histories. Early 1900 ads, in fact, show Daly bragging about their association with Schilling.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 04/04/12 11:50 AM
Does the Stub variety of pattern welded tubes have it origins at Westley Richards?


Joe's Daly hammergun 15xxx with Stub



From Modern Gunnery 1906 page 26 by Henry Sharp:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40464507/Modern-Sporting-Gunnery-1906-From-www-jgokey-com

I was trying to find a pattern welded tube with the WR stamp.




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PeteM Re: Daly Damascus color? - 04/04/12 12:33 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Does the Stub variety of pattern welded tubes have it origins at Westley Richards?..


Nope, Greener was doing it much earlier, 1835.

http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Image_Barrels_2.html

Pete
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 04/04/12 01:11 PM
Thanks Peter. The pattern welded tube naming convention is most perplexing and seems to evolve over time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/05/12 01:42 PM

Schovering, Daly & Gales $1000 U.S. of A. offering.

Info suggests that in 1907 the $1000 U.S. of A. or 4200 Mark double arrived on the scene. The 12 bore had 81cm heavily choked tubes of 3 Ringe Krupp Weapons Grade Steel and weighed 3.460 kg. It was stated that the intercepting scear, Sicherheitsfangstangen?, is that of Sauer as well that Schoverling, Daly & Gales was sourcing Sauer for these examples, which rivaled or exceeded anything peddled on the planet, touting that the German craftsmanship equaled that of any other mechanic.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/22/12 12:10 PM
Schoverling, Daly & Gales adverts from 1905/1906 Recreation publication pushing Sauer's wares. Schoverling & Daly both have passed but the future looks bright as H.A. Lindner makes an expansion while his son Ernst Lindner(July 6th 1883 - June 16th 1915) should be wrapping up his efforts on his master gunsmith endeavour. But this Pullman sporting weapons train would be come to a screeching halt in 10 short years.






I think Daly's Combined Shot and Rifle examples to be few and far between?


Not the tube diameters are given.


My memory could have failed me but I don't recall seeing many hammerless Daly 3 Barrel sporting weapons?


But one could purchase an American version from the Three Barrel Gun Company for $65+.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/23/12 01:02 AM
Like I stated above, I can't recall seeing a Charles Daly hammerless 3 barrel gun nor it being a catalogue offering till 1907? Info suggests that it was offered in 1900(as early as 1892??) with Models 107 & 108. I don't see a cocking lever like the Sauer models so it is a boxlock?





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/23/12 02:26 AM
Several pages back I posted that Wiebusch & Hilger were sole agents for Sauer in 1892 while they were located at 84 & 86 Chambers Street, the same location of Shoverling, Daly & Gales in 1887. So it would appear that Schoverling, Daly & Gales moved to 302 Broadway in 1888 or very early 1889. Wiebusch & Hilger were importers and I wonder if they played a part or were under the large Schoverling, Daly & Gales umbrella???


1887 Schoverling, Daly & Gales advert at 84 & 86 Chambers Street noting the Charles Daly Hammerless as well as the Manhattan


1892 Wiebusch & Hilger advert at 84 & 86 Chambers Street


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ed good Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/23/12 01:01 PM
wonderful thread...you guys need to write a book!
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/23/12 01:47 PM
Definitely something needs to be penned on SD&G but there are still some holes in the chronology. For those following along, a March 19th notice gives that in April 1898 SD&D temporarily moved from 302 Broadway to 325 Broadway for the construction of a new facility at 302 Broadway. Then next year Charles Daly expires and the heirs and assigns regroup by incorporating and there was some controversy surrounding that.



Then bio info appears on T.W. Stake and his involvement.


T.W. Stake listing with 1900 bio info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/24/12 04:00 AM
Ah, ha - from page 15 I found the info I had forgotten:

"In 1868 Friedrich Wiebusch was listed as a silent or special partner and he expired in 1893, 2 years after August Schoverling. I'm fairly confident that Friedrich Wiebusch was founding partner in Wiebusch & Hilger(Hilger & Co. founded in 1848??) which arrived on the scene around 1876 and continued till say 1928. After Friedrich Wiebusch expired, Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig were at the helm and were mainly blade peddlers. In 1892, about the time they were listed as the sole Sauer agents, they were in a tiff with the U.S. of A. over bowie knives, which they considered to be sidearms but the government didn't see it that way & they lost. The seem to have drug in some Belgian arms also and all appears to have left port at Antwerp."

So, I really need to sort thru the chaff and condense the clutter.

Even if SD&G were founded earlier than 1865, the War of Northern Aggression was in full swing so they could have been peddling but few would have know about it.


Recreation 1905 advert
Interesting to see the founding date of the Suhl factory.




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/30/12 09:00 PM
Jumping forward a bit to 1914 and cross referencing a Sauer triggerplate thread:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=283246#Post283246


July 1914 Advert for New Sauer Model 0

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/01/12 02:09 AM

1914 Advert which seems to give similar weight to the Sauer as well as the Daly gun.


I think this is a 1911 advert but from the early 1900s to WWI S,D&G sales must have increased so that H.A. Lindner couldn't keep pace and Charles Daly turned to Sauer to fill the void. By the start of WWI, it is said that there were no less than 300 hammerless scatterguns & bolt guns(I assume some were Dalys or Daly guns but who knows) on hand to handle and drool over. So it is very possible that S,D&G were looking for a lower priced hammerless Sauer gun and set the wheels in motion for the Sauer No. 0 but acquiring parts kits from Liege and then peddling the final product and that is how the odd Sauer triggerplate actions landed on these shores. Anyone know of a copy of their 300 +/- page catalogue?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/01/12 02:45 AM

1908 S,D&G Advert

Finally found a T.W. Stake(Theodore William Stake - one of original 1899 incorporators) shotgun advert.


1908 Advert also.

S,D&G also assisted their clients in selling their retail outlets?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/10/12 01:58 AM
At the same time, 1911/1912, H.A. Lindner was advertising in country, also for single and double barrel sporting weapons: H.A. Lindner, Suhl



Also at the same time(late 1911/1912) he filed for a lockup design for breech-loaders( Verschlu fr Kipplaufgewehre) under D.R.G.M. Gebrauchsmuster geschtzt #555768.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/10/12 02:08 AM
Raimey, can you tell us what the lock up design 555768 looked like ?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/10/12 02:13 AM
Mr. Hallquist:
I was hoping that you or someone-else had an example. I really struggled to retrieve that tid-bit of info. For now and to me it seems that both S,D&G & Lindner were trying to broaden their client base and they may have been on different tangents. Everything seemed to really be opening up and it was about to come to a screeching halt.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/10/12 03:46 AM
I would assume it was for the single trap and H.A. Lindner was trying to peddle some to the Germans. Mr. Wes Fink is to send me some images of one of his singles and I'm going to wad back thru the Daly Trap Guns looking for a clue.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/10/12 04:34 AM
Maybe the Sextuple lock ?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/10/12 12:30 PM
Mr. Hallquist, I believe we are on the same page, maybe not the correct page but the same page.


1914 S,D&G Daly Trap Gun Advert

I do suspect that D.R.G.M.(Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster) 555768 of H.A. Lindner of Suhl was centered around the Charles Daly Sextuple. D.R.G.M.s were of the utility variety and holding the position of intended use or registered design but did not offer any patent protection. I believe it was referred to as a kleines Reichspatent or small Imperial or petty patent but the intent was as a poor man's protection on intent or design. I believe it was Sauerfan, http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post257385 , that put me on the straight & narrow on this and the use of the D.R.G.M. commenced on October 1st, 1891 and continued to say 1952 when it changed to D.B.G.M. I've read that it offered 10 years of intent or design protection but it appears it was valid for a 3 year period, of which could be extended for an additional 3 or 6 year period, which would approach the 10 year range. D.R.P.s were very expensive to file during this time and the associated cost in Germany was probably 2 to 3 times the cost of those in England. So with all that said, H.A. Lindner's registered use or design 555768 and Daly's adverts of the Sextuple originate approximately at the same time, or within a couple years of one another all point to H.A. Lindner as the culprit. I was hoping someone else had some insight.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/11/12 01:13 PM
Mr. Hallquist, it is with great pleasure that I inform the small merry band of followers that Lindner Daly Sextuple #2458 wears DRGM 555768. Thanks to the grand efforts of Mr. Fink we will shortly have some images. So unequivocally or without reservation H.A. Lindner is the designer of the Sextuple lockup.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/11/12 01:52 PM

DRMS(DRGM) 555768 on the standing breech of Lindner Daly Sextuple #2458. The G looks more like a S but it might just be my eyes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/11/12 02:04 PM
Ken Georgi & Vincent Tomaselli have an article on Mr. Wes Fink's S,D&G SBT as well as a 1912 advert in GGCA publication No. 37(Fall 2008) at pages 8-12. If indeed the S,D&G SBT was manufactured from 1912 - 1916 there were very few of the examples and for the 1st 3 year period I would garner a guess that almost all were sourced from H.A. Lindner.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/11/12 02:23 PM

Marks on Lindner Daly SBT with 555768 including Schilling forge marks, H.A. Lindner's quality control mark and initials RS.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/11/12 04:14 PM
It is D.R.M.S. & a 1st guess is Deutsches Reich Musterschutz which I don't know to exist and I would define it as a registered trademark or design protection, with emphasis here on the later. Any D.R.M.S. experts around?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/14/12 01:54 AM
In order to have protection under the German law seeing that a Gebrauchsmuster - utility model filed in German protects the technology in the country of establishment, a non-residence of Germany would have to acquire a resident respresentative. The Gebrauchsmuster, or model of utility, protects only the 1st applicant. A new arrangement or new configuration for a practical application has full protection as a Gebrauchsmuster. For now I don't think the acronym matters whether D.R.G.M. or D.R.M.S( Deutschen Reichs Gebrauchsmuster Schutz ). The filing fee was 15 Marks and warranted protection for the 1st 3 years. An extension of 3 additional years would cost you an additional 60 marks. The extension of the Gebrauchsmuster was advertised just like the initial but it was in a column noting the payment of 60 Marks. Post WWI the fees grew to 60 Marks for the application and 150 Marks for the 3 year extension. Fine for infringement could be up to 5000 Marks. If for some reason your Gebrauchsmuster was rejected, 1/2 of the application/filing fee was returned(this may have been post 1913??).

The following conditions had to be met:


An Application;

The title wherein the model is to be registered;

A statement of the new arrangement or configuration which was to be protected;

A receipt for 15 Marks paid to the Patent Office, or a guarantee that it will arrive at the same instance as the application;

The name, profession and residence of applicant or representative;

Signature of filling applicant noting profession & address;

A picture or facsimile of model either on bristol or cardboard no less than 33cm x 21cm, with a max of 33cm in one direction and a maximum dimension of 50cm X 50cm;

A power of attorney for applicant if a resident representative has been engaged;

All instruments to be filed in duplicate and having dimensions no less than 33cm X 21cm

A D.R.P. on the other hand had a filing fee of 20 Marks, a 30 Mark charge for the 1st year; a 50 Mark charge for the 2nd year and an additional 50 marks, or 50 mark increase/year, for each additional year to 15 years.

Some sort of new patent laws were drafted circa 1913, with each of the 1st 5 years having a 50 Mark/year fee and the additional extensions were a progressive 50 Mark/year increase with a max charge of 3500 Marks, which would have been 5280 Marks prior to the new law.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/04/12 12:22 AM
Ken, I hope you stop by on this never ending thread(I hope there are still a few hardcore enthusiasts), but I ran across a 1909 S,D&G advert for a single barrel Daly. Is there a difference between the SBT and the Single Barrel Daly and can you reveal the source for the 1912 date. I've committed your 2008 GGCA article in volume #37 at page 10 to memory and I cannot find an earlier date than 1912 for a SBD(Single Barrel Daly).


1909 Advert


1909 Advert

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=291216#Post291216

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/20/13 01:57 PM
Schoverling, Daly & Gales at the end of their run, probably in the mid to late 1920s, possibly 1927, partnered with Akt. - Ges. Lignose Berlin-Suhl for their Modell Simplex or Modell Nr. 723.

http://www.soldusa.com/rainworx/detail.asp?id=20981&pic=2#img

"This is a gun imported by Schoverling Daly & Gales from Ges. Lignose, Berlin, Germany. The rib is stamped Schoverling Daly & Gales, New York. The barrels are stamped on both sides of the rib AKT. Ges. Lignose, Berlin-Suhl." - Serial Nr. 10036.








Advert lifted from Martin's post here:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=180578
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/28/13 08:55 PM
Interersting sideplated Charles Daly, & price, on this listing:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=327289129


It has Krupp 3 Ringe Weapons Grade Steel tubes but it was proofed, and more than likely completed, by in Zella-Mehlis. Can't really see the date but it looks like 1932 or 1933. With this example I'm curious how many sideplated Charles Daly boxlocks there were?


Can't really read the rib but I'm curious if the term Regent is in there?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/28/13 09:03 PM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=327314044

This listing for a Charles Daly - Sauer is also curious as there appears to be not one mark pointing toward Sauer. It has a Krupp tubeset knitted by M. Sch. if I read it correctly. It fits in the odd 26k serialization found on some post WWI Dalys. I would guess Adamy & I'm curious if Max Schleestien was one of Gebrder Adamy subcontractors?






It experienced proof in April 1930 and has Sl tubes which may point to Belgian sourcing.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/28/13 11:00 PM
Raimey,

In regard to the first Daly you provided a link to above - i.e., the "sideplated Daly Regent" - I have never seen a Daly of this type ever offered or advertised.

To my knowledge SD&G never marked their regent diamond quality guns in this manner and the level of embelishment of this gun is totally inconsistent with any regent diamond quality Daly gun I have ever seen.

It is a nice gun, but not at the standard or style of Daly regent diamond quality gun. To be honest, my first reaction was that the "Regent Daly" marking on the rib was spurious and intended to dupe the uninformed. While the final, post-SD&G production of "Prussian Dalys" did expand to include several manufactures, I would be totally shocked to find out that this gun was really a Daly. Seems kind of odd that the only Daly marking on the gun is some crude scratching on the rib.

Best reagrds,
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/28/13 11:06 PM
Thanks Ken for chiming in & I thought the same but after starring at it for some time I think it reflects the situation of S,D&G or Charles Daly at the time. I sincerely believe that they sourced the mechanics of Zella-Mehlis for this example. For now I do not think it to be a fake. Any idea of the proof date of the last Prussian Daly?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/29/13 12:04 AM



It wears the export type stamp and also has a Purdey nose lockup that is sometimes seen on sidelocks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/29/13 02:15 AM
The last Prussian Daly I have recorded was made in 1933. So the demise of the Prussian Daly and this gun's production date is an interesting coincidence But the serial number and mechanicals of this gun are very different than that gun. This gun is like no other Prussian Daly I have seen. Again, at a minimum, I would have expected to see the Daly name engraved on the sides of the action. Heck, they didn't even spell out "Charles Daly" or "Regent Diamond Quality" on the rib - just "Regent Daly". To top it off the, the "Regent Daly" inscription doesn't fit into the space allocated. There have been other Daly regent diamond fakes noted which is why I am skeptical of this gun.

But again, who knows what the company owners were willing to slap the Daly name onto during the final months of the company. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/29/13 12:56 PM
Ken:
I also concur that the name scribing is a bit primitive but with the images it is quite difficult to read and the price is a little on the high side for a purchase for close inspection. And, I'm not positive if the date is 1932, 1933, some year? So yes, the addition of the Daly name could be spurious. It appears to be an export sporting weapon but the mechanics did go the extra effort to have it experience the Nitro proof. Not sure how many post WWI Dalys wear the Nitro proof stamp. In 1933 I don't think that the Charles Daly name & S,D&G were one in the same or owned by the same concern, so what outfitter would have been peddling it? The components resemble some of the wares of upper rung Waffenhndlers that look to have sourced a Belgian gesteck and had it completed in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis. How heavy was the sourcing of the Belgians by the Charles Daly owner at this time?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/31/13 02:40 PM
A Russian collector friend obtain permission of use on these Ernst Steigleder Berlin Lindner sourced Diamant Orlow double with an additional set of rifled tubes by Louis Kelber some time later. Some may object, by in my opinion this paring of Lindner-R.S. - Robert Schlegelmilch and Louis Kelber tubesets is about as good as it gets unless there's a 3rd set by Jean Falla.














2 grams of powder over 27 grams of lead shot


Schilling forge marks along with H.A. Lindner's control stamps


Initials L.K. on a rifled tubeset and note the serial number. For some reason unknown for now Ernst Steigleder changed to serial number 111,000 circa 1904/1905.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/13 12:36 AM

Interesting to see that Wittener Stahlrhren-Werke was founded in 1896 by absorbing or as a reorganization of Rhrenfabrik von Alvermann, Cordes & Trottmann. The owner was von Khaynach of Stting. Telegraph address was Rhrenwerk, Witten. In 1905 it mergered with the Rhrenwalzwerke in Gelsenkirchen. An expansion in 1911 lead to a satellite facility in Glasgow that was supposed to be online in 1914 followed by a merger with the Mannesmannrhren-Werke, which commenced in 1917 to fully absorb the concern and the deal was finalized in 1918. Info is spotty after WWI under the Mannesmann umbrella.

Ken:
What is the earliest Charles Daly/H.A. Lindner example wearing Wittener Excelsior steel? For now I would guess the trademark was filed between 1896 & 1901 but much closer to 1896.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/11/13 12:42 AM
Mannesmann AG

"This firm was created in 1908 to act as a holding company for the various metallurgical interests of the Mannesman family and the patents it held relating to the production of seamless steel and steel-alloy tubes. In the years before the Great War it grew to be a major integrated steel production and trading concern, with subsidiary companies operating in Great Britain, Russia, Italy and Bohemia, most of which were confiscated by the victorious allies following the conclusion of hostilities.

Nevertheless the firm was able to rebuild and expand in the postwar era, with its increasing demand for seamless tubes for marine, aviation and industrial uses. The firm also diversified its interests backward into basic steel production and forward into mechanical engineering, both through founding of new facilities and through the acquisition of existing firms. In 1924 it acquired Monheimer Ketten und Metallwaren Industrie and in 1926 the machine works of the Gebruder Meer, while in 1929 it opened a new integrated steel works at Duisburg.

In 1932 it acquired the Dsseldorfer Rhren und Eisenwalzwerke from the Vereinigte Stahlwerke and integrated its activities with the rest of the Mannesman enterprise. In 1934 it took a quarter-share interest in the Magdeburg machine works of Richard Wolf, and in 1936 obtained a one-third share interest in the Treuenbrietzen metal fabrication firm in exchange for a large loan for that firms expansion. The Stahlwerke Harkort-Eicken was merged into the firm in 1938."

Closed June 30th, 1972.

Some info I stumbled across. For those Italian aficionados note that Mannesman-Witten had a facility in Italy.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/12/13 01:10 AM
May be after a Red Herring here. Difficult to track Gustahlwerke Witten as another concern either had or was using the term Excelsior. But Gustahlwerke Witten was active in 1937 to 1941 and seems they had or were developing a Edelstahl or stainless steel.


Ruhrstahl - Witten





Ruhrstahl - Stahlguss

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/25/13 12:28 PM
Looking at OWD's recent post I noticed the following Charles Daly Gun-H.A. Lindner and I wondered how many had the side frame reinforcement?






Daly #3615

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/27/13 06:32 PM
I noticed the same gun in the recent Little John auction. This is the first Lindner Daly I have seen with this style of action reinforcement. It is interesting, but I can't say I care for the aesthetic.

The first Daly I have noted with Wittener steel barrels is Serial #1130 which puts it circa 1901. Please note though that many of the entries in the database do not list the barrel composition. Witten barrels could show up several hundred guns earlier. This is just the first one I noted with this serial number. Krupp steel is found as early as Daly #705, circa 1896/7.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/27/13 08:07 PM
Ken, if originally it had a additional set of rifled tubes you might look at it in a different light? The current owner has found me so I hope to receive new info and new images.

Might have been a pigeon gun with the straight-hand stock?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/28/13 01:07 PM

Curious as to the repair and if it left Germany or was sent back?


JW initials




For you Drew.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/01/13 01:39 PM


Miller & Val. Greiss Nr. 19262
2,2 Gr. Sch. P. over 35,5 Gr. Bl.


Anyone else think this examples has any Lindner like characteristics?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/02/13 02:32 AM
Interesting gun . .

Lindner-like dtails -

- "Steel eyes" in the forend indicating ejectors
- Sculpting of the fences (pre-side clip era)
- Reinforcement/bolster of the side of the action
- Pin/screw placement
- "Frog eye" cocking indicators

NON Linder-like details

- Flat/straight action back (only the earliest Lindner hammerless guns had non-arcaded actions)
- Engraving pattern to include the barrel engraving
- Blueing of the action screw below the barrels

Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/27/13 10:36 PM








Charles Daly #1918 with initials HB on the underside of the 80cm pattern welded tube. It is at Cabelas, Wichita.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/28/13 01:15 PM








Charles Daly - Lindner Nr. 970 with tubeset Nr. 1210 with initials R.S. & Script L on tubes above HAL over crossed pistols & square crossbolt.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=342180#Post342180
thread

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/28/13 01:17 PM

Enlarged image of R.S. initials


Enlarged image of script L

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/28/13 01:44 PM
Raimey: the Daly at the Wichita Cabela's is the first I've seen with Damascus-Twist barrels. Any idea as to grade?
Thanks for keeping this interesting thread going, and have a very blessed 2014.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/28/13 01:53 PM
Dr. Hause, a belated Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours. Um, not sure at all on the hammergun Daly being a bit more home-grown than the previous versions with patterned welded tubes wearing Birmingham touchmarks. Interesting that the tubes did measure an integer cm(80cm) & not an English integer. I was not able to capture any images so I just took an image of an image to post on the thread.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Library/Wichita-Gun-Library%7C/pc/103792680/c/112378680/Charles-Daly-SxS-in-12-Ga/1666840.uts?destination=%2Fbrowse.cmd%3FcategoryId%3D112378680%26WTz_l%3DSBC%253BSAcat104791680%253Bcat103792680

Copy & Paste(Go-to) or use:
Reference #: 2720656

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/28/13 02:18 PM

Image of a close-up image.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/29/13 02:06 PM
Drew:
From memory, the forend latch was a Deeley & Edge type. Was it Remington that had the Deeley & Edge authorization in the mid to late 1870s??? My guess the guide to the grades would be to define the action type and go from there, more than likely being under the Schoverling & Daly banner(remember both worked for Bker and me thinks there's an interesting story there that either developed or aided in their sourcing modell) or shortly thereafter.

Side Snap Action $100 - $110

Top Snap Action, Double Bolt $130 - $175

Pistol Grip Stocks(extra) $ 10

Extra Close and Hard Shooting guaranteed for 12.00 extra

1874 Advert

If it wasn't acquired directly from S,D&G, a wild brace of guesses would be that the outlets were either Henry C. Squires of 178 Broadway, New York or Sears, Roebuck & Co. Interesting that in the mid 1890 Sears was peddling the Dalys and notes the offerings being "Improved 1894 Model". I do not see any Daly offerings in the 1900 version.

The Charles Daly Nr. 250-Diamond(Sears - No. 818) retailed at $250 U.S. of A. but Sears listed it as $189.50

Charles Daly Nr. 150(Sears No. 819) listed at $129

Charles Daly Nr. 120-Featherweight(Sears No. 821) listed at $102.64.

As a sidenote, I stumbled across a fella Memphis, Tn., who retailed Charles Daly variants & I wonder if he relieved or added choke:

Frank Schuman of 412 Main Street, Memphis immigrated from Germany in 1856 and was noted as having knowledge of "choke, boring of guns". He peddled a Schuman breech loader as well as Charles Daly.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/14/14 12:48 PM

Charles Daly 10 bore with missing front trigger - Ken61
















Or I can wait until you have it in hand?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ed good Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/14/14 01:03 PM
wonderful thread.

somebody needs to write a book!
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/14/14 01:14 PM
Your request is noted and is a re-occurring theme.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/14/14 04:28 PM
Raimey,

Thanks for posting the pictures. As soon as I get it I'll attempt to post some pictures of the action and barrel flats. I'll try to do it via my Android pad.

As I see it, the pin pattern appears to be the same as that of an early Lindner gun posted earlier in this thread.

Your last question was cut off in the post. Is there any info I can provide you, or do you have any thoughts about the gun you'd like to share before I receive it? Right now all the info I have is what was on the listing.
Regards
Ken
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 01:14 AM
Here's the action flats.



The serial #707 is on the receiver, forend, and barrels. The barrel flats have the initials "PB" within an oval, as well as the serial number. There is also "15" stamped near the serial number on the barrels. About an inch from the flats each barrel is stamped with a small number or letter "0" and the number "11". There also appears to be a small Prussian Eagle on the action flats, it's near the right action face, but it's hard to see in the picture. That's all the markings I can find. Am I right in thinking that this could be one of Georg's guns?

Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 02:37 AM
Charles Daly purchased a gesteck or parts kit from Birmingham & had a team assemble and complete it in Suhl. Somewhere in this thread there is an image of an encircled PB on a flat.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 03:11 AM
Thanks,

I found it. Sooo, this is one of the 15000 range serial number guns that had British parts but was finished by Georg in Suhl. The action is similar to the Golcher gun pics earlier in the thread as well as the W.C. Scott. How would you categorize this gun? Birmingham-sourced Suhl-finished?
Regards
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 12:03 PM
I'd really like to see the marks. Can you take a large diameter magnifier & snap an image thru that in white light? Nah, not really Birmingham sourced as one unit unless it wears a contingent of Birmingham marks. I'd say the tubes were knitted and that component along with the frame was/were in a very blocky rudimentary state. The bulk of fine fitting, profiling, polishing and detail work was performed by a small talented pool of Suhl mechanics with which Charles Daly had a loose association. It wasn't until the mid 1870s that Charles Daly truly defined his primary sourcing, which was thru H.A. Lindner. I suspect that during the early years in the interim period that not only was H.A. Lindner learning his craft, but in Lindner Charles Daly was cultivating exactly the aesthetics required for the American market. It was a pairing that just would not have succeeded without all the principal players. And S,D&G benefited greatly in the monetary realm.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 12:33 PM
Charles Daly 10 bore hammergun in the 157xx serial number range:










Then encircled PB is the same as that of Joe Wood's latest acquisition and in the same location. But the stamp on Joe Wood's appears to have a couple of efforts.



Just pulled some images from many pages back.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 01:45 PM
Mine, 15,251 you refer to, has every single part stamped with the number, even including the steel buttplate! What really puzzles me is the laminated barrels carry the Birmingham provisional proof only and the ribs are brazed on!
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 09:30 PM
Here's the barrel flats. Whew, I think I'm finally getting this picture posting process down.



Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 11:39 PM
Not far off from the other serialization to some of the others so completed in 1871/1872? I believe I see an 11 bore stamp & possibly some remnants of some British marks.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/25/14 11:43 PM


What's the contraption on the fore lug?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 12:31 AM
Here are some close-ups:











The Damascus pattern appears to be a 3-iron Crolle type, but it's hard to make out. I'm in the process of refinishing several other barrel sets, so I'll put this set into the queue as well. It'll be Black & White, unless you or someone else can make the case for Brown & White instead. This is getting more interesting...
Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 12:56 AM
Ah, it is just the way the fore lug was filed. Any chance of an up-close of the Imperial Eagle?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 12:58 AM
Also if you pull the locks, post a few images of the lockwork.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 01:06 AM
Sure, I'll do all of it. Tomorrow I'm going to switch to a camera for the pics rather than my pad, so hopefully I will be able to provide clearer pics. I was editing my previous post when you posted yours, I added that I was going to start refinishing the barrels, Black & White appearing to be the correct choice.
Regards
Ken
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 05:29 PM
Here's a pic of what I think is a Prussian Eagle. To me, it appears that the Eagle's head is turned and pointing to the right, but possibly not, as the Prussian Eagle's head points left. It reminds me of a much later Ulm proofmark, but again the Eagle's head is pointing left on that mark. There's always the possibility that this is just my imagination. I shot it through my shop magnifier, it's still not as distinct as with the naked eye. I'll post pics of the locks as soon as I remove them, I've got to grind a screwdriver first.



Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 05:40 PM
Still can't see it but does it resemble:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 05:41 PM
It's possible. What does that mark represent?
Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 05:46 PM
There's maybe 2 or 3 possible origins for pre-1893. One being from the Imperial Armouries as it is seen on bolt guns & the other is that early on it is seen on Sauer's wares. So it would be interesting if there is an Imperial Eagle on the flats of a Charles Daly completed with a British parts kit. It may have been some sort of material test at Sauer prior to the 1893 rules.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 06:48 PM
I just looked at the mark with my USB microscope. It does appear to be the same mark. I can't post a pic yet, my computer recognizes my microscope as a webcam, so it's in video format. If I can figure out how to take a picture with it I'll post it.

Since the gun's serial number probably places it in 1870-1872 range, is it reasonable to think the Georg bought the British parts kit and had it finished by Sauer? Or, was it possible Daly arranged it without any Lindner involvement?
Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 08:09 PM
I'd say the latter as Georg Lindner shouldn't have had any need to source Britain less for tubes. Charles Daly is the key and it is possible he is using these Scott components as a litmus test to determine who he wants to run "his factory in Suhl". Not sure how he picked his mechanics, but I'm sure there was some process. Either Lindner may have played more a role of quality control and sourcing all the effort along family lines. I don't think there's an adequate number of Sauer marks to say a lot went on with Sauer with this piece but some effort may have occurred there. But there was a very close working relationship with the Lindners and J.P. Sauer.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 08:30 PM


Other Sauer marks would need to accompany it like the Wildmann, large and small crowns, lowercase script g, etc.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 08:35 PM
That make's sense. Here's the pic from the microscope. It's upside-down. It took a while to figure out how to get the microscope to work.



Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 08:42 PM


Above is the full contingent of Sauer process marks I would expect to see.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 08:45 PM






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 11:34 PM
Here's two more images of a different very faint mark. I can't tell what it is.





Thanks
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 07/26/14 11:58 PM
Maybe put some chalk or graphite on it if you have not already. I can tell very little.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/22/14 10:41 AM
We are 100 years removed from the start of WWI and we are in the 99th year since Schoverling, Daly & Gales began its downward spiral commencing with the death of H.A. Lindner's son Ernst Lindner in July of 1915. In 1899 Schoverling, Daly & Gales completed an expansion which engaged at least 2 lifts/elevators, steam heat & light from their own power-plant and/or generator. They spent some time in 1888 at a temporary location at 325 Broadway Street, NY but moved back to the corner of 302 - 304 Broadway Street & 84 Duane Street occupying some portion of J. Everdell's Old Establishment at 302 Broadway, founded in 1840 & W.J. Syms & Brothers Weapons outlet at 300 broadway, New York City, possibly also founded circa 1840. So by the turn of the 20th Century Schoverling, Daly & Gales was occupying the oldest sporting weapons headquarters in New York, U.S. of A advertising as: "The fitting is equal to a Purdey, Grant of any gun. They will stand nitro powders and be as sound after twenty years' use as when the first shot was fired."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/22/14 01:00 PM
In a few days I'll be posting pics of the barrels of my Daly I referred to earlier in the thread. The barrels have been through six rusting cycles and are ready for the intermediate etch. I'll then rust another three or four cycles, then perform the final etch and the logwood soak. I should be posting pics around or before next weekend.

I also just picked up another early Daly with the same action. This one has significant stock issues, I'll post some "before" pics once I receive it.

Raimey, do you happen to know what process was used to color the steel buttplate?

Regards
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/22/14 09:57 PM
Is it case colour hardened? If so, probably the old method of taking each finished component & putting it thru the process along with animal hides, hooves, urine: all the stuff of which jello is composed? Nah, I don't have any idea yet. Is there an image on this thread?

Daly Gun Nr. 27:






A.S. on crossbar


Encircled PB

I'm beginning to lean toward the possibility that the Scott serialized versions pre-date the Daly serialized. But still it would put Nr. 27 in the early to mid 1870s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/22/14 10:32 PM
Too, I wonder if the difference between the tubeset number & the serial number notes the quantity made before sequential serialization? Also, did the sequential serialization commence with H.A. Lindner in 1874? Or did H.A. Lindner carry forward a sequence that commenced prior to his hanging of his gunmaking shingle? If the above is indeed Nr. 27, and with the absence of Crown over Crossed Pistols, I'd say the latter.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/23/14 02:33 AM
I can't tell if it was colored or not. It's got to be one of the three processes, Blacked/Blued, Color Hardened, or Nitre Blued.

I was hoping someone would know, I understand that Winchester color hardened some of their buttplates, I'd like to know if it was used on shotguns. my Remington 1889 has a steel buttplate, but all color is gone on it as well.

Regards
Ken
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/23/14 11:41 AM
Ken:
I'd look toward the Scott sporting weapons of the time. Did they have butt-plates? If so, how did they prepare them externally. It is possible that the butt-plate was in the Gesteck/parts kit Daly purchased from Scott.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 11:01 AM
Hermann Boker & Co. also imported/peddled Rail for short tracks and ran a Steel department. Their source was Funke & Elbers / Westphalian Wagon Company / Steelworks of Hagan or forges of Hagan Grnthal. F.A. Boker, Carl F. Boker(younger brother of Hermann Boker) & he is the steel magnet, Albert H. Funke, Hermann Funke and Hermann Funke, Jr. all were in upper management of the Hermann Boker & Co., which was dissolved in 1899. I am all but convinced that at least one Boker married a Funke or vice versa. But if Boker had those connections, just ponder what parts of the world were not within Schoverling, Daly & Gale's reach.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 02:35 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Ken:
I'd look toward the Scott sporting weapons of the time. Did they have butt-plates? If so, how did they prepare them externally. It is possible that the butt-plate was in the Gesteck/parts kit Daly purchased from Scott.
rse


Raimey, remember my Daly #15,251 has the serial number stamped on the steel buttplate, and all other parts, including the locks. The only exception is it is hand engraved on the tang of the trigger guard.

Incidentally, since the same serial number is stamped on the flat of the barrels wouldn't that indicate the barrels were stitched together by Scott? If so, Daly must have been really experimenting by having Scott braze the ribs on mine rather than solder them. Do any of the other 15,000 series have brazed ribs?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 04:43 PM
I do Joe, but I think Ken's was made later than yours and did not have Scott's serial number sequence. What's the exterior/surface of the steel buttplate on it & your similar Scott?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 06:24 PM
The buttplate is very old and seemingly original nickel plated as is the triggerguard and triggerplate. Engraving underneath is still very sharp and clean which leads me to believe original.

Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 07:17 PM
Raimey & Joe,

That's a new wrinkle. So, four possible methods to color the buttplate, now that plating is added. Joe, how is your other Daly buttplate colored? Can you tell?
Regards
Ken
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 07:48 PM
Ken, not sure I understand the question. It is nickel plated. Sorry I do not have a current photo and its not available for photo right now.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/24/14 07:53 PM
Don't you have a similar Scott Joe?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/25/14 04:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Joe Wood
Ken, not sure I understand the question. It is nickel plated. Sorry I do not have a current photo and its not available for photo right now.


I mean your Scott, which has a similar action to your Daly. As my Daly also is the Scott action, I'm trying to determine how they originally colored the steel buttplates.

Regards
Ken
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Daly Damascus color? - 08/25/14 05:11 AM
My Scott has a horn buttplate so no help there. It is from 1870.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/23/14 08:10 PM




Upper trigger ignites right tube & lower trigger ignites left tube. Anyone hazard a guess as to the designer?

Sauer sourced Charles Daly Nr. 106532

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/23/14 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Upper trigger ignites right tube & lower trigger ignites left tube. Anyone hazard a guess as to the designer?


Gotta be Rube Goldberg...Geo
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/24/14 03:56 AM
I wonder if this is S,D&G's 1907 British patent #22946 for a single selective trigger with W. Fairweather as their agent? Anyone have the patent or has seen a S,D&G single trigger?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/25/14 01:38 PM


H.A. Linder Gewehrfabrik DRP Nr. 277253 of 1912 - Approved 1914




Schoverling, Daly & Gales Single Trigger Patent British No. 22946 of 1907 - filed by Wallace Fairweather, C.E., 65-66 Chancery Lane, London, W.C., and 62 Saint Vincent Street, Glasgow, Chartered Patent Agent

I'm at a loss as to why the image is blue but neither is our culprit.

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/25/14 03:50 PM
Three observations. Since the trigger is still on the gun it must work or it would have been replaced long ago with a system which did work well. I wonder how easy that trigger is to operate in hunting conditions. And last I suspect it was devilishly complicated to make and fit.

Another invention which while technically sound just never took off. It is a very cleaver design attempt but with my fat fingers one which might work better on the skeet field than under hunting conditions. Wish it were mine though.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/25/14 08:03 PM
I believe it is still up for bid. So if you'll hold your hand high & long you might be the lucky new owner.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 09/25/14 08:11 PM
Have at it:

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.a...By-J.-P.-Sauer#

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 11/17/14 12:02 AM

Daly Gun #1981 - 12 bore with Crown over Crossed Pistols & initials HB

Dropped in Cabelas Witicha, Kansas Friday & the Charles Daly double Nr. 1981 was still there. Little rough shape & a little loose.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Jon S Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/15/14 08:19 PM
Raimey,

#1366 is a Charles Daly Lindner marked(crown/pistols) 10 ga. 32" Damascus hammergun. Game scene engraved. Signature Lindner wide forearm lug. The barrels are marked "AS". Weighs 9-95.

#2024 is Charles Daly Lindner marked(crown/pistols) 10 ga. 32" Damascus, modestly engraved (no critters) hammergun. Lindner wide forearm lug. Barrels are marked "RS". Weighs 8-13

#470 is a Charles Daly 10 GA. Damascus hammergun. No wide forearm lug. NO Lindner marks, no barrel flat marks, but on the barrels in the space between the floorplate through-lug and the hinge there is a "R" under what appears to be a crown. Next to that is a mark the looks like a "7" overprinted with a "2". If I knew what to do I would send photos. Kids will be here next week so I will send pics then. The pin configuration on the locks looks just like #15251. Seems to be a very high condition high quality gun, but, I think not a Lindner made gun Weighs 9-11

#1105 (second serial number set) circa about 1901 is a Charles Daly 12ga Diamond quality hammergun. It is marked HAL/pistols with 28" Whitten steel barrels. They are marked "RS". The action is secured with a Jones underlever. It has a straight (English) stock with no cast although the trigger are set up for a lefty. Everything about this gun is correct. The only other underlever Dalys I have seen are the famous 8 bore and 4 bore duo that have sold several tines for big bucks. Those gun were built a few years apart and this gun was built during that gap. It weighs 7-11

That's all the Daly hammerguns I can talk about. I can do a little better on hammerless.

I'll be glad to send pictures when the technology troops arrive.
Merry Christmas,
Jon






Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/15/14 11:35 PM
Many thanks Jon. I'd fancy seeing any & all images you might capture. The Daly Gun Nr. 470 sounds interesting & like a wildcard.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/24/16 02:38 AM
















http://www.gunbroker.com/item/566740488

Anyone think the above Otto Bock Berlin Nr. 9159 is Lindner-esk?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/22/18 10:03 PM
I've heard of a Charles Daly Nr. 10078 - 20 Bore - 28" tubes purported to have been manufactured by HWZ - Hermann Weibrauch Zella - Mehlis at the recent Beinfeld / Antique Arms Show this past weekend. Asking price was North of $40K U.S. of A.

Case is stamped "Martin J. Alger, Jr. Pelham, New York", so Alger might be the or one of the case makers.

Anyone have any images of the marks?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Dan S. W. Re: Daly Damascus color? - 01/22/18 10:12 PM
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2018/...%20-%200416.pdf

Odd. Apparently one of my childhood homes was a few blocks from Mr. Alger's residence in Pelham. Not exactly a hub of gunmaking in the 1990's.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 05/08/19 01:20 AM
Looks like George Reeb, whom I believe to be the good friend of Bob Jones, is selling his collection? Or maybe his heirs & assigns:


https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=100989925


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 06/23/19 03:01 PM
Interesting 1930 reprint @ Galazan:

http://connecticutshotgun.co/charles-daly-inc-1930-gun-catalog-reprint/

http://connecticutshotgun.co/charles-daly-label/

I wonder if on the trade label @ the bottom that they misspelled Suhl(Shul)?

Lots of trade labels too.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/13/20 01:10 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I've read several places including a Charles Daly site that in 1919(one source gave 1910 but may have been a typo) that Henry Modell purchased S,D&G but most give that the successor to S,D&D was I. & S.D. Davega, which was founded in either 1878 or 1879. And in 1927 or 1928 Sloan's Sporting Goods purchased the trademark/tradename Charles Daly so any longarm post say 1928 with Charles Daly on it would have passed thru Sloan's Sporting Good's books.



https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/12/12/business/retailers-restaurants-bankrupt-2020/index.html

Anyone see where Modell's Sporting Goods(since 1889) faltered earlier this year & sought protection? I believe this to be the same Modells

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: canvasback Re: Daly Damascus color? - 12/13/20 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
I've read several places including a Charles Daly site that in 1919(one source gave 1910 but may have been a typo) that Henry Modell purchased S,D&G but most give that the successor to S,D&D was I. & S.D. Davega, which was founded in either 1878 or 1879. And in 1927 or 1928 Sloan's Sporting Goods purchased the trademark/tradename Charles Daly so any longarm post say 1928 with Charles Daly on it would have passed thru Sloan's Sporting Good's books.





https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/12/12/business/retailers-restaurants-bankrupt-2020/index.html

Anyone see where Modell's Sporting Goods(since 1889) faltered earlier this year & sought protection? I believe this to be the same Modells

Cheers,

Raimey
rse



You are correct Raimey. The recent Modells and the Henry Modell store circa 1900 is the same organization. Just some corporate name changes over the years. My time in the sporting goods industry brought me close to these guys. They liked their history.
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