Hi,

I was hoping to see if anyone could share any successful BP load data for goose/duck.

What I am loading for are two Parker 10 Gauge T models I want to take goose and duck hunting next year. To date, I have only been loading BP for upland game and in 12 guage...with great success I may add thank to my friends at Circle Fly.

My questions really surface as to what shot should I consider using in my damascus twist barrels. The load I am considering would be:
1. 4.5 Dram 2F
2. 1.5oz of ?

So should I consider Hevishot or something else? I need the non toxic shot to be compliant for waterfowl and friendly to twist steel/damascus barrels.

Also, has anyone else hunted waterfowl with 10 Ga BP? Curious of any results anyone has experienced.

I think the Heavyshot might be somewhat hard on your barrel without some type of good shot cup.
I will be tying out the new ITX shot in #4 from Ballistic products in my 12ga. I just use a wax wad in the brass cases. They hold a much larger payload due to the thinner case walls.

Here is a pic of how the Bismuth worked in the brass cases.

Pretty much your only options on shot are NiceShot or ITX right at the moment unless you can find some bismuth.

HeavyShot isn't selling their old gun friendly product (Classic Doubles) in anything but loaded shells. The new company that's loading bismuth is doing the same, only loaded ammo.

DLH

1 1/4 oz of #2 bismuth over 4 drams of FFg in brass cases worked well for me in my 1883 Colt 10 ga. on Montana honkers last December.

I think the old colt could take a heavier load, but the recoil of 4 drams was enough for me and it seemed to kill geese as well as the 3 1/2 inch semi-auto guys I was hunting with.

Bismuth loads are always helpful but what would be more helpful would be a source for the shot. That stuff is getting like gold, there's just none available. A friend has resorted to buying old bismuth ammo and cutting it open to get the shot for reloading. He's managed to locate a couple places that had big stocks of 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge stuff they couldn't seem to sell and bought it semi-cheap.

Destry

I used some itx shot on snow geese last week,inferior product for several reasons,I can't recommend it.

I've not used any of it yet but have heard good things. A friend did all his goose shooting here in Michigan with it this past season and said it was fine.

Give us a report, this is the kind of stuff I'm always interested to hear.


DLH

I shoot a Greener 10 bore G-gun that dislikes plastic shotcups,or heavy mylar wraps,but patterns great with card wads.Dave at BPI pressure tested some 2 7/8" loads for me with teflon wraps,(the stuff is abrasive)on calling me with the results he seemed a bit worried that the ends of the Federal cases were all ripped off!Apparently those little belts on the shot grab the case walls,and bring it with!
I got it to shoot(without destroying my cases),by using a double wrap of slick paper .005 thick,and backing off the powder a bit.

The other problem density,itx is about 25% lighter than lead.There are more #2 in an 1 1/4 oz. load than 1 1/2 oz. of bismuth,takes up to much room in the case and does not maintain enough energy at the ranges we shoot snows at.I loaded my right barrel with itx and the left with bismuth,same size shot(#2) and same choke(very full).The result--one snow with the itx,a head shot,and about six with bismuth,I switched to all bismuth for the remainder.

I would like to add I have nothing against BPI,I am glad they supply us with the stuff we need,I just don't care for their shot!Your results may vary.

Very interesting, good to get real field reports on these new products.

I've just broken down and purchased a 10 gauge loader. Will be trying out some various loadings and getting them tested by Armbrust.

The ITX supposedly does the plier crush test about like the other double gun friendly shots. Where did you hear that it was too abrasive to use without cups or wraps?


DLH

Rub a pellet on a piece of steel.I do think it is soft enough,it flattens on my steel pattern plate.

Two seasons ago I made a mess of a goose with my 1880's vintage ten. After taking the advice of some very good folks here I wound up shooting one ounce of #2 bismuth over 4 drams of FF Goex, fiber/card wads and roll crimp. No idea about velocity but it was easy on gun and patterned perfect for decoying greaters.

Best,
Mark

You bet. I have shot ducks and geese with my 1906 Lefever G Grade 10-bore, choked full and fuller. I don't reload, but about 10 years ago I lucked into buying several flats of factory Bismuth 2 7/8 in. 1 1/4 oz. #3s and #5s. A great gun and an effective load. I've also shot turkeys with Gamebore black powder lead shells, with similar effects. Tons of fun. TT

Couple of seasons ago I used the Nice Shot #2 on some honkers with good luck. I have also used the bismuth #2 in the short 10. Since ITX is much cheaper and I have a bunch of 2 7/8" 10ga loaded with bismuth #2 I only loaded the ITX in #4 mainly for ducks. I figured it is about 85% the density of lead shot and a 1 1/4oz load of lead #4 has about the same number of pellets as 1oz of ITX. Therefore, it takes up a lot of room in the case. I was able to use the same low pressure 12 bore 1oz load as I use for clays (with a substition for a wad with more room). It is certainly better than steel shot but the load I was using was pretty much a decoying load. I don't usually take shots over 35-40 yards on ducks anyway. I did use a few of these loads for snow geese over decoys and I was as successful as the guys using steel shot loads. I was shooting much tighter chokes than they were. A tight choked VH 32" Parker. If you hit them they drop...
I have also used the #4 ITX on some honkers out of a 12bore with good luck over decoys and some shots approaching 50 yards. I occassionaly have geese come in while duck hunting and the #4 seemed to work just fine. Dead is dead.

For 12 bore I would shoot factory bismuth and TM if the gun and bores are stout. I have done so with an early parker #2 frame GH with no issues. For the short 10 you can order factory loaded nice shot from RST.

Gunnerman books has a 10ga short 10 loading manual that uses IMR 7625 exclusively. It is a great powder until it gets down into the single digits. One of the parker guys uses it in Alaska into the negative temps on clays. I usually load my hunting loads with smokeless because, after a long day of hunting all I want to do is eat a hearty meal, have a few drinks and socialize...not clean the bores of a shotgun.

Sorry, I just remembered you were asking about black powder. 4 drams seems like a lot of powder. Cripe, when I shoot 12ga 2 1/2 drams under 1oz of shot at sporting clays I am sore for two weeks. It has been awhile since I shot black powder 10's. I do not currently have a BP hammer gun in working order. But, if memory serves me that BP kicks a lot more than my low pressure smokeless. Well, I just pulled out an old table and you need a little more powder for the short 10 BP loads, Light: 4drams to 1oz shot, Normal: 4 drams to 1.25oz shot and heavy: 4 1/2drams to 1.5oz of shot. I was thinking some guys ran 5 drams for some really heavy loads. here is the link: http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

Some of the old books talked about what loads they were using for specific critters. Seems like there was a lot of good information in one of Leffingwells books.

Reloaders Specialties is supposed to have a soft non toxic shot out for this fall. L.P. Brezny wrote an article in the last wildfowl rag. I went to the website but they had no information yet. I did not call to ask any questions. It may be a winner.

For that heavy load of 4.5 drams BP and 1.5 oz shot I would want a pretty heavy gun for that load. It may be just the load for an 11.8 lb parker lifter 10ga I have been working on...!!

Good luck and shoot straight,
Kurt

P.S. See ya this weekend Market Hunter

Guys that was a great amount of data..wow! Thanks for all the great input.

Kurt, per your last comment, I have a heavy Parker hammer that I want to use for duck/goose so the loads above would be find.

Yes, BP seems to kick alot more but for me, thats half of the fun.

Thanks all for your input...again great information here for the small community of folks that like to use these great pieces of history.

BP will kick more for the same load. You're pushing a bunch more weight down the barrel in the form of blackpowder crud.

Blackpower skeet is great fun.

My hats off to you guys that shoot 1 and 1 1/4 ounces of #2 at geese. At any kind of range, the pattern density is so low that you really must be fine shots to be centering them every time.

Out of my hammer gun I shoot 1 3/8 or 1 5/8 ounce loads when I can get them. I've got some black powder bismuth loads that are backed up with 5 drams of black powder and that seems about right for real goose shooting.

How many shells do you really shoot at geese anyway? On a good day with an early or late season 8-10 bird limit, if you're any kind of gunner, you're going to shoot maybe 20 shells? What's a little blue on the shoulder when you've had a day like that?

Give the birds some respect, bring out the big guns and the big shells. If you want to shoot 1 ounce loads why don't you just borrow a nice 20 gauge from your ladyfriends.

Big Birds should equal Big Guns & Big Shells

If you want to shoot a 10 gauge, shoot 10 gauge shells. If you want to shoot 20 gauge loads then break out the women's guns.


Destry

Oddly enough, I like to shoot 1 1/4 oz 4 dram loads in my 10ga.

Mostly because that was the load my gun was designed for.



Notice: 'Charge 4 Drms 1 1/4 Shot'

10 gauge loads for game shooting, not a true fowling load.

That being said, 1 1/4 ounce for decoying ducks is dandy, even for big mallards and canvasback. The larger races of geese need more medicine dammit.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it no matter what anybody says. *sticks out lower lip*

Destry

W W Greener, 9th edition pagr 400;
"The most generally useful type of 10-bore is that of 8½ lbs to 9½ lbs in weight & using as the standard charge 4 drams powder with 1½ to 1 3/4 oz of #4 (US#5) or larger size of shot".
Greener was of the opinion the old 10ga load using 5drams of powder behind only 1¼oz was a load totally out of proportion & that any advantage the 10 possesed over the 12 was obtained only if the shot charge exceeded 1¼oz. I tend to agree.

That is what the 8ga's are for.

You are getting me laughing again MarketHunter....
yea......the big guns were made large payloads...agreed. They are probably most effective with the heavy loads also. For the short 10 I have been loading 1 1/8oz of Bismuth #2 which probably has about the same number of pellets of somewhere between 1 1/4 to 1 3/8oz of #2 lead. I am not going to cut one open and count the pelletts. The Velocity is around 1200-1250.

The booklet that Gunnerman books sells has some short 10 loads with SR7625 that go up to 1 1/2oz but the pressures are getting up to 7980 and 9620 psi....which is a little higher that I like to push the old guns. I might be comfortable with the 7890psi out of a stout gun but the velocity is at 1145f/s..which may be just fine for such a heavy load. There is a 1 3/8oz load that is at 7600psi and 1200fps that may be just the ticket....I may have to try that one with some ITX #2 or #4 and it may just fill the SP10 wad.....I dropped off a gun a local gun smith and he had a few bags of SP10 wads collecting dust. He sold me 6 bags for $15 including a bag of versalite 10ga that I have never seen before.

Kurt

Kurt,

Was good to see you over the weekend, wish we'd have had a chance to visit more.

DLH

Anyone know how these loads are on Condor..?






Cheers
Tinker

Them condors don't eat too good, they're about like labrador duck.

DLH

Could just tart that meat up with spicy teriyaki and make some jerky.

Think spicy teriyaki condor jerky would sell well at the gun show..?






Tinker

Only to hunters in California who wish they were extinct.

DLH

...Or anyone from anywhere who's interested in hunting with vintage guns and rifles in the affected area and doesn't want to push copper solids through their rifles or (anything but lead) through their guns...


Bet it wouldn't take long to sell out!




Cheers
Tinker

Actually, condor is reported to taste like a cross between spotted owl and bald eagle, by those who've had the privilege of dining on all three.

Perfect.
Thanks for the note.


Spicy Teriyaki it is then.





Cheers
Tinker

I couldn't agree more.
...last time I saw ya you setting in the chair with your head back and trying to catch flies in your mouth...must have been a rough night...LOL

Thanks for letting me leave the gun on your table.

It had been a hard night.

Up at 7am, worked the day job, drove to the gun show and set up about 5pm, left there at 7pm, worked the night job till 4am.

Figured if I went to bed I'd never get back up again.

Drank coffee at the diner till 6am, home for a shower and back to the gunshow when you saw me napping in my chair that afternoon.

Had to work again that night, wash, rinse, repeat.....

Finally saw the pillows about 7pm on Sunday for the first time since 7am Friday.

I'm getting too old for this shit.


DLH

P.S. Of course I steelhead fished all day today in the rain after working last night so I guess I'm still able. Caught two nice ones!!!!

ITX shot is malleable but unfortunately can be quite abrasive, and must be loaded with adequate bore protection:

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Retro+Waterfowlers+Delight

This is quite a disappointment, especially in the muzzleloading community. This leaves just Nice Shot/EcoTungsten at the moment, for those who wish to avoid plastic, AFIK.

Regards,
Joel

I'm betting he caught some...

There is a gentleman on the Shotgunworld board making and selling bismuth shot:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=158840
He believes that the only patents still in effect pertain to casting technologies for making the larger shot, which he is not using.

Regards,
Joel

I've traded some messages with him, his asking price is $21 a pound.


DLH

In case you are interested, there is a group purchase being organized on that board that is at the $16/lb stage now and very close to 200lbs, where it goes to $15/lb.

Joel

Who's he going to get to load it for him ?

I sent him a request. Here is his reply.



If you need his email address, let me know.

Pete

Guys,

Any update on the group buy on the bismuth?

Guys,

I just revisited this post and again want to thank all of you for your thoughts on this topic.

I bought #2 nice shot and loaded over 4 drams of FFg with overshot fiber wads..etc...

I will be shooting an 1878 Parker 10 gauge hammergun. Will report back any success.



Thanks again.

Low velocity, "long range" loads are also an option when "lead equivalent" weight shot is used. I don't have Gough Thomas's data in front of me but I do remember, for example, that he recommended 3 drams of black powder for 1 1/2 ounces of shot. From what I can tell, such loads generate about 1000 f.p.s., give or take. Thomas also recommended British #4s but Don Zutz made a bit more sense to me when he recommended a minimum of Americam #4s for long-range ducks and #3s and #2s for geese. In guns that are compatible with them these loads, using lead shot, were real killers and I suspect that they could be the same with "heavy" non-toxic shot.

Thomas wrote that these loads were originally intended to enable shooters of "game guns" to shoot waterfowl. Some of the older examples of these loads went as slowly as 800- to 850 f.p.s. .

I thought I would post a few pics from my waterfowl hunt last Friday / Saturday with my dad and a few friends. While it's been extreemly cold here in the mid-Atlantic during the last month or so, last weekend was not so bad (high 20s low 30s AM). The birds have really been great. Last weekend we finished by 0830 (goose). Anyway, I decided to wrap up my year with my Parker 10ga hammer gun which I have yet to take to the field. With the advise from other forum users, I loaded, #2 niceshot over BP with Circle Fly wads. It was a real hoot to see and experience the old Parker flawlessly, belch two huge clouds of black smoke with every toll. Overall, the gun performed well on both days and allowed me to limit out.

I have to say hunting with SxS again is a real blast and the BP added much enjoyment to the day.

In my 10 ga Parker Hammergun, I load 4 1/4 dr 2 F and 1 3/8 Bismuth(by volume). Works great.I made a miracle 70 yd kill on a Duck with it.

Screw the Feds. Just use lead shot.