Good Morning Board. I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. I was in the store yesterday and was tempted by a 28 gauge Beretta O/U. My question is, Is 28 gauge a viable hunting cartridge for birds other than quail? I would hunt grouse with the thing, but I feel that anything a 28 ga. can do a 20 ga. can do better. Is this true? I think the 28 gauge's stongest asset is lightweight and pencil thin frame. AM I out in left field? -IM

You have picked a controversial subject.
No one doubts the worth of the 28 for birds the size of quail, woodcock and doves.
Grouse are bigger birds and some think the 28 is fine for them, others don't. All you can do is try it and see.
I have learned to respect both sides of the argument as it seems unresolvable. Kind of like the "Is the .243 Win, gun enough for deer" question. Marginal and works for some, not for others.

IM: I have read that the 28 and 16 gauges are both more ballistically efficient than the 20 -- that if one of the three is redundant and should never have been introduced, it is the 20. However, the 20 was introduced, is the most firmly entrenched, and will be the last of these to go away. Of course, the smaller the gauge, the less forgiving it is and the better your aim must be. I have shot doves and planted chukars with a 28, and they're certainly a pleasure to carry, but I still see the 28 as sort of a novelty gun. When I'm doing serious hunting for wild birds, I try to give myself a greater advantage by using a 16 or 12. I carried my "new" 20-ga. Model 37 Ithaca on Thanksgiving morning and emptied it at a rooster without ruffling a feather. I know that the problem was 95 percent user error, but you can bet I was also trying to convince myself that I was undergunned! Happy hunting. TT

IM,
I currently don't have a 28g that I'm using to hunt with. I do have a .410 . While the .410 is fully capable of killing cleanly the wild quail I hunt regularly, it has a way of stealing my confidence. So, I don't take it out often. I think it's all about confidence. If TT lacks confidence in his 20g (or any of us, in any gun/gauge) he'll likely have less success with it. My example of this is my 20g guns. I shoot primarily 20g at sporting clays and skeet and haven't taken a shot with a 12g in a long time. When it came time to go to So. Dakota for phez this year, I almost forgot to bring a 12g. First day out, I used a 20g 391 to bag a limit. On all the upland birds I hunt (phez, chukar, quail, dove) the 20g gives me complete confidence, probably because I shoot it all year at sporting clays.

IM, the above is from different experience from mine but I agree with the sentiments. Your message also indicates you're on the right track.

Hi,
I believe the largest guage that handles they way you like it, the better off you will be. I like a light 12 about 6lb 4-8oz with 28" tubes & fit well, my next favorite would be a 16ga about 6lbs with 28" tubes. I think the 28 is a novalty that I would like to have for easier pen raised birds but I really will be better off with a 12 or 16. Now Bill G. has one beatiful A & S 28ga that I lust for.
Jeff G.

I'm with Jeff, the larger gauges instill confidence and help ensure taking game. This is especially apparent to me if the birds are few and far between. I don't have to take lots of birds to have fun, but birds is like money; having lots can't make you happy, but having none can make you unhappy.

The fundamental, real, difference is 1/8oz of shot. 27 pellets of #6. The sparse pattern can be filled up by going to tighter choke, if you can control a slim light gun well enough to center your birds.

You know, I've heard at one time or another that a 410 will do everything a 28 will, a 28 will perform as well as a 20, nobody needs a 16 anymore because of the 20, a 16 is indetectable from a 12 as far as performance, and there's no need for a 10 because of the 3" 12, and better performance ammo in the 10 obsoleted the 8.

By logical construction, a 410 then is adequate for any task including 60 yards honkers.

Sillyness. As an old (and geting older) trap shooter, I can't control a light gun worth a damn. I like to carry a light gun, sure... but when the time comes to actually kill something, a little heft helps. I've settled on a 687L 3" 20. The gun has a 28" barrel set and moves well. Good compromise. It's the lightest I'll use in the field.

Well of course the oft stated "Fact" of the 28 & 16 ga's being somehow Ballistically more effecient is Total, Pure, Unadulterated "BS". This is usually accompanied by the stated reason being they shoot a "Square Load". the author then insults ones intelligence by givig the definition of a Sq Load as being either the equivelent wt of a round ball which fits the bore, or that the length of the shot column in the bore is equal to it's dia. Now it don't take a rocket scientist to divide 16 by 28 & figure the wt of a 28ga round ball is .57oz, or just over 9/16oz, far short of the normal 3/4oz (.75oz) load. Hercules/Alliant supplied us with a chart in their handloaders guide showing nominal column length in the various gauges for 1oz of shot. The 28ga is listed @ 1.21" & it's bore dia is .55", then .55/1.21 = .455oz or just over 7/16oz, even lighter than the round ball definition. A shotgun bbl is a piece of pipe to guide a fist full of shot. The bigger the pipe the more shot it will throw effeciently. All the gauges simply take their place in the line-up. The 28ga is way ahead of a .410,the 20 a little better, the 16 better still & for most purposes the 12 best of all. For normal use the 10 is generally too big, being a specialized gun at one end, as the small bores are on the other end.

'zakly!

And what's the crap about Miller only having three stars??

Dave! Help! 2-Piper rates six stars...

Special title is fully in order here... "General of the BBS".

Jonesy,
I put Miller in for 5 stars and it averaged it to 4. Put him in for 5 more and maybe Miller will get the 5 stars he deserves. Miller has always contributed meaninfully to whatever he steps in. LOL. Just kidding, Miller. You have my respect for digging up some pretty obscure things and always looking for the straight scoop on topics.

Improved Modified - I can speak from experience and say that the 28 gauge with 3/4 oz. loads is more than enough gun for even late season ruffed grouse. The trick is to find a barrel / load combination that will deliver a decent pattern out to the range at which you normally shoot. My 687 with the IM choke tube will deliver a deadly pattern with the Remington Express Long Range shells, #6 shot, out to 35 yards. For some reason that same gun shoots patchy patterns with Kent loads in 7 1/2, even though those loads work well in a Franchi auto. With the 28 gauge some work at the patterning board is advisable.

The major advantage of the diminutive gauge is the light, fast handling guns that use the load. I see no advantage to using 28 gauge for game in a gun much over 6 lb. The explosive flush of a ruffed grouse demands a quick response and a lightweight double allows that.

For larger and longer range birds such as sharptail or pheasant my personal view is that a larger shell is warranted, but a good shot with a good load may disagree.

Anton

Thank you for all of your responses-IM

My skeet average is higher with the 28GA than with anything else. I have a membership in a hunting club that plants birds every Saturday. I have been using a 12 GA but plan on using a 28 next time because even with an open choke I tend to tear those up a little. I think that one would be hard pressed to tell the difference if you were shooting a gun that weighed and balanced the same

Ditto every word that 2-piper wrote. Even Bob Brister, in his very good shotgun book, admitted that while he loved the 28 ga., in a quail hunt competition, he would use his full grown Perazzi 12 guage. The "ballistically efficient" and "square load" is about as meaningless as a dude in a gun store, handling maybe the second(or first) shotgun he's ever had in his hands, tell the clerk "it has a rilly good balance"! Or "nice and light", usually followed by a thoughtful look through the bore, like he's going to see something he recognizes in there.
I also agree with IM's own answer to his question.
I do love the 28 gauge. Currently own two of them both SxS. IMO, they are great on doves, not as good as a 12 on western quail but a lot of fun to shoot at clay target games. In direct response to TT's proposal as to which of the gauges(16,20, or 28) is redundant, my vote would go to the 16. It has no place in skeet, is hard to find components for, seldom on sale and every load usable in the 16 can be produced in a 12 ga., with the infinite variety of wads available. Likewise, the 20 can be loaded up, at least to equal the lighter 16 ga. loads.

I strictly limit my 28 gauge to quail and preserve chukar. I killed 4 preserve pheasants with it today though. Great for in close but you limit your options when they get the jump on you. My all around favorite is the 20 gauge, the 16 comes out for pheasant only hunts. The 12 is reserved for waterfowl.

While ruffed grouse are certainly bigger than quail and woodcock, I've never found them particularly difficult to kill, and shots are often quite close. I don't think there's anything wrong with the 28 as a grouse and woodcock gun, unless maybe you're talking late season, and you're experiencing mostly long chances on grouse. But I would not hype it as a pheasant or prairie grouse gun, for sure.

I agree with 2 Pipers comments.

I also will tell you I for years shot my 28 Repro with the commonly available Winchester 'Max' loads with 1oz. shot. I've since read that 1oz. shot in a 28 is a dreadful load.....which surprises me greatly as numerous birds and clays fell stone dead when I pointed the gun their way and pulled the trigger.

With the heavy loads I have reliably killed plenty of critters heavier than a quail, including a couple very solid jackrabbits on the run, a skunk, and a few differen varieties of large birds.

My experience has been about the same as GregSy. I have shot a 28 ga for 30 years(M870 Rem)as well as a good friend of min that I have hunted with a lot.. Wild Quail
and Dove have never failed to fall DEAD,much more so than my 20 ga with the same choke. I dont think it is imagination that within 30 yds it kills like a 12 ga. I shoot 3/4 and 7/8 oz.

A 28ga weighing in at no more than 5¼ lbs, with first bbl skeet or I/C & 2nd bbl mod, shooting 3/4oz of appropiate shot size for the game at hand will cleanly kill a lot more game than most would give it credit for. Reason, most upland game, at least in the East, is shot inside 30 yds. To me this is the ideal 28. For more shot or a heavier weight, I'll take a bigger hole any day. I have 16ga @ 6lb, why carry a 6lb 28ga?? If a 12ga can be loaded down to 7/8oz surely a 16 could handle 3/4oz just fine. But if need be it can handle 1oz, 1 1/8oz or even 1¼oz assuming modern gun capable of SAAMI loads. Older 28's should likely be limited to 5/8oz loads likewise. In proportion to bore a 1oz 28ga is equal to a 1¼oz load in 20ga, 1 7/16oz load in a 16ga or 1 3/4oz in a 12ga. Note that none of these loads are loaded in standard 2 3/4" hulls. The smaller the hole in the bbl the greater seems to be the tendency to "Overload" them.

Miller, I agree on what you are saying in both of your posts. The only thing I want to know is where are you guys finding these 5 1/4 lb. guns? The lightest gun I have is a 20 ga. Beretta sxs 626e, straight stock, 26" barrels and that weighs 6 lbs. 3 ozs. Another Beretta 28 ga. BL4 26" barrels weighs 6 lbs. 4 ozs., and I thought they were light.

Right JDW. 28s can weigh more than 20s built on the same frame due to more barrel wall. The rage now is 20/28 combo sets which makes no sense to me. When would I ever put the heavier barrels on to shoot shells that cost twice as much?

With the price of lead now, several of my casual skeet shooting friends are loading 3/4 in the 20 anyway. Saves wearing out the expensive 28ga hulls...

I know you all know this but, a bird hit with sufficient numbers of leathal sized shot to statistically cover the vitals with shot going of sufficient velocity, doesn't know the difference which gauge barrel it came from.

Sure, to get an equivalently dense pattern with a 28g, the pattern must be smaller diameter than larger gauges with more shot. It boils down to getting the pattern on target. Harder to do as the pattern gets smaller. Has nothing to do with whether or not the gauge is capable of killing. It's all about the shooter's ability no matter the gauge. Large gauges,less difficult to do. Smaller gauges, ever increasingly difficult.

I've reached for small gauges when birds are plentiful and/or conditions assure more bag. When conditions/game are more challenging, I tend to reach for my larger gauge guns. That's the reason I own more than one gauge.

I think it all depends on your skill level. I will use a 28 on quail but nothing larger. One of my friends will use a 28 on chuckers or even larger birds with great sucess. The point being he is a much better shot than I am. If you find your percentage of clean kills remains high, by all means use a 28. They are fun and easy to carry. If it does not work for use then return to the 20 or better. Respect the game. A 28 can still be a blast on clays.

I have shot birds from rail to Canadian Geese with a 28 back in the old days when lead was legal. My first gun was a Winchester Model 12 in 28 gauge. Suspect my father hoped that I would loose interest and he would end up with the 28 for quail. Sorry dad.

After 40 years of shooting the 28 I have found out a few basic truths. Most people who have the strongest reasons to hate or love the 28 are full of BS. It is neither lighting bolts from the Gods or a worthless wounder of game. Used within resonable range it will cleanly kill all the birds any other gauge will.

It does have limits. The later in the year the less effective it becomes. Partly because birds are older, stronger, more heavily feathered and educatated by a long season of hunting and not shot at short ranges, as they were earlier in the year. Late season birds are harder to kill and much harder to trick into getting close to the blind. NO good one ounce load exist for the 28. They end up too slow and pattern too poorly to be effective. You need high quality shot in 28. The better the shell the better the result and no more so than with the 28. 3/4 ounce is about the minimum shot load for hunting so every pellet counts. And last if you lend your hunting partner your 28 he will out shoot you every time.

When discussions turn to gun weight with the 28g and .410, I think it gets down to very personal preference and abilities. Why should someone that cannot shoot a gun well, under say 6 1/4 lbs, but is very much a great shot, be looking for the "advantage" of shooting a 5 3/4 lb 28g? IMO, gauge and "optimum" gun weight (96X shot charge, etc) can be disassociated when going down in gauge to accommodate minimum gun weight/balance for the shooters abilities. The "advantage" of using a smaller gauge comes in the form of the particular hunter's satisfaction with what he is shooting.

Jon,
That last little piece of information is to live by. LOL

"And last if you lend your hunting partner your 28 he will out shoot you every time."

I'm fond of the 28 gauge and love the 16 gauge for the very reasons Jim Legg lists when he slams the 16 ... because they're both unusual and effective. I guess I'm a contrarian, but as long as most hunters (not those who hang out here) think 12 and 20 gauge Italian autos are the only shotguns worth owning, I'll shoot pheasants with my 5 lb. 15 oz. 16 gauge Lefever and ducks with my Sweet Sixteen A-5 ... and not give a rip that most hunters look at me like I've just pulled a hickory shafted "brassie" out of my golf bag. How can anyone who loves to shoot guns that fire only two shots -- out of two separate barrels, for heavens sake! -- NOT love a relic gauge like the 16? TT

I've posted this before about the 28 ga., but I will reiterate again. I bought a 28 ga. BL4 26" barreles, imp.cyl/mod for my wife to shoot skeet back in 1970. She said my Winchester 101 20 ga. kicked too much for her. She shot it a few times, and then I kind of inherited it. We lived in N.J. at the time and I used it along with my English Setter on public grounds, and to give you a conservative estimate, I killed probably 300 pheasants with that 28 ga. using #7 1/2's and # 9 shot, all reloads with 3/4 oz shot. All the shots were probably no farther than 25 yds., and like Chuck H. said, they didn't know what guage hit them.
As far as shooting skeet, I would say that on the average between the 28 ga, and the 20 ga. there was no difference in the scores.
So what ever most of you think about the 28 ga, unless you shoot one, don't knock it. I still cary a 28 ga. sxs with me after stocked pheasants, and chuckers. Yes, you have to be "right on" but then again who wants to carry a 7 + lb, 12 ga. or a Remington 1100 that weighs 8 lbs. Not me.

Tiny and testing. It works fine if you shoot at game at reasonable ranges.

"Depends on your skill level"...Everybody who owns/shoots a 28 claims to be a good shot or an expert. Funny, every expert I ever met or read about, from Digweed to Delany, used a 12 everytime it was allowed, used a 12 to make their name, and made no appologies about it. Just my observation. I don't own a 28 anymore, (I took one on trade years ago, it was here for maybe 2 weeks) as only a fool with more money than common sense would pay the price for those cartridges asked even at Walmart, when the 12s, 16s and 20s sit next to them for much less. Don't give me any "reloading is cheaper" crap either, not for that gauge it isn't. I guess somebody has to buy the gold plated car name emblems, big, silly polished wheels and tires, and the 28 gauge stuff.
Best,
Ted

"NO good one ounce load exist for the 28. They end up too slow and pattern too poorly to be effective."


I've never patterned my 28 with any load, so you may be right about the patterning. And I've never checked the muzzle velocity, so you may be right on that one, too. But the 'effective' part? As I said earlier, my success rate with the heavy 1 oz. loads would rate 'excellent' on just about anyone's scale. Point, shoot, dead.

I haven't done the math but I'll bet a 1 oz. load in a 28ga. is not much further from 'good' than a 1 oz 20 ga load - and no one is griping about that one.

I think a great deal of dissatisfaction with ANY gun or load comes from lack of familiarity. A guy uses a 12 every year for thousands of rounds, picks up a 28 and misses a bunch - the gauge is no good. A guy shoots 28" barrels for years then picks up a 26" barreled gun and it feels 'funny', so 26" barrels are too short.

If a person shot only a light 24" 28ga. gun with 1 oz. loads, in a year he would swear there was nothing better. Th problem lies not with the gun but the with shooter's noggin 99% of the time.

Don't give me any "reloading is cheaper" crap either, not for that gauge it isn't.
Ted, the primers are the same, the powder is the same, the shot is the same, so that leaves wads, what are we talking here? In the long run it's cheaper, more powder, shot to the shell than a 12 ga.
Yes the 28 ga does cost more off the shelf if that's the way you want to go. If you are only shooting this gun as an inbetween gun, then it's not so bad paying $8.99 a box. What about the waterfowler who buys, $15.00+ a box.

JDW.......is right on. It costs no more to load a 28ga.

Ted......I guess you have met every 28ga. Well I for one don't know you and I also don't claim to be a expert 28ga. shooter. Also not everyone hunt or shoot waterfowl. If you don't own a 28 ga. seems hard to justify its unworthyness! Hell i shoot a 32ga. sxs for local quail and do just fine over points and birds at reasonable distances. But when I travel to Kansas or Oklahoma I take my 28ga. repro. Yes it's a pheasant killer too!
Cheers,

On hunting with rifles I have gone to a very light rifle that I can shoot extremely well. I feel shot placement is more inportant than the size of the shell.
I am in the market for a 28 bore gun but am not certain about using it on game. I will see how well it shoots clays before I use it on game. If it works well then I will try it on birds, if not I will give it to my daughter.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I may have come across as knocking the 28ga. That was not my intention. It is just another size, smaller than all the common gauges, (.410 is not a gauge). Actually one of my fondest memories is of a 28ga, an old H&R single bbl, wt just over 4lbs. I am, I guess, just somewhat putoff with all the "Myth & Magic" some try to bestow upon it. It works because it is not too dificult to get a killing pattern out of even the standard 3/4oz load out to around 35yds. Due to the spreading of the pattern every time you tack on another 5yds requires either considerable more shot, or a much denser pattern. Nothing magic, just geometry, if you double the size of a pattern it takes 4 times as much shot to give the same density. In the 20-35yd range a 28ga is a great little gun, almost the equal of a lite 20ga load. They can be light, & many find them "Cute". Just to like them should be reason enough justification to own one. I think many simply, after paying a premium for the gun, premium for the shells etc, have to convince themselves some "Magic" which they can't really explain makes it "Superior" to the more common 20ga.

T'is an interesting thread. I shoot lots of 28 at wild game here in NC, mainly doves, woodcock and quail(when they can be found!) Also note that box birds have 2 gauges, 12 and 28. I am a tad old and slow but have not had too much trouble with box birds in 28 using nickel plated #7 in Cheddite hull and Longshot powder from a low gun start. Must admit scores fall off back at the 32-33 yard line. It's a fun gauge, but not a "silver bullet" by any means. It's a good excuse to own more guns! Best, Dr. BILL

TT, I didn't "slam" the 16. I said what I said. The market pretty much backs my opinion up, but it's just my opinion. Millions, well, thousands maybe, of people who hunt only and don't reload, love the 16, especially in the southeast. Nobody is trying to convince anyone else that they shouldn't love their 16, nor should they. That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

Jim: Maybe "slam" was too harsh a word, but it was a pretty darn long list of reasons you think the 16 is redundant for me to have to digest, just when I was all ready to hit the sack. I happen to prefer the 16 over the 20 (but own some of both) and you happen to prefer the 20 over the 16 (but probably own some of both) ... the important thing, as you suggest, is that we both love ice cream, don't we? Ironically, we've turned a question about the 28 into a debate over 20s and 16s, and I'd take either over a 28! You mention reloading as a problem, and many of your issues with the 16 are ammo-related, whether store-bought or home-made. I've only observed the market for about 10 years, but am under the impression that the ammunition situation is at least improving for the 16 gauge. That's good news, if true, because I believe a 16-ga. side-by-side is ideal for upland hunting, and if built right (many aren't), more comfortable and attractive than a 12. Of course, I could say the same about 20s, I suppose ... if I was so inclined. Best to you. TT

I shoot at everything with them,quail,grouse woodcock and on pen raised birds(pheasant)there dead in the air.I think like every thing else it is a matter of what you feed it.3/4 oz Remington are my choice for most stuff,but have shot a pile of birds with 1 oz loads(Nobel)awhile back a friend gave me some nickle plated #4!Gave real meaning to overkill of quail,but worked well on bigger birds like Pheasant,like Harry said "You got to know your limitations"
Hampton

Mike Yardley is currently shooting a pair of Beretta 28-bore o/u guns - predominantly driven pheasants and partridges.

The last time I watched him shoot, he killed five good, driven pheasants for five shots and then sleeved his gun.

Sir Joseph Nickerson famously shot admirably with a trio of Purdey 28-bore over/unders.

This suggests that in the right hands, a 28-bore is a viable tool for killing driven game at normal ranges, but Mike shoots with tight chokes and, when called for, loads of up to an ounce. An ounce is all I ever use in my 12-bores.

I personally do not share the fad for small bores, believing the 12-bore to be the best suited to taking most game and providing more choice and better value in vintage gun buying.

However, if you wish to shoot game at normal ranges with a suitably loaded 28-bore, the evidence suggests that it is a reasonable thing to attempt and since this is a matter of personal choice, why not- and good luck!

The gauge matters very little. An appropriate shot charge through an appropriate choke is what matters. After that, the question is: does a smaller than normal/average/recommended shot charge through a tighter than normal/average/recommended choke(tight enough to produce a lethal number of hits on the target with the reduced number of pellets) make a pattern of a size with which you can be reasonably assured of hitting the target. I assure you that Mike Yardley and Dig Hadoke can be successful with smaller patterns than can most shooters.

Shot charge weight, shot size, choke, and target area are bound at the hip. Ask yourself if you have the skill to ethically shoot at a living target with X/8 oz shot which will allow y% of the aiming error of the normally recommended charge.

Is your daughter a better shooter than you are JAS?

I'm not sure, she has only shot trap two times. At the turkey shoot she put me out twice, but she shot after me. We were in Sweden visiting Relatives in Tjorn in Sept. It was a wonderful experience. Hope to return for a moose hunt with them.
jas
ps. The first time she broke one clay out of 25.

One more time, as to the math. (.615/.550)²=1.25. Thus proportionate to bore dia a 1oz 28ga load is ballistically similar to a 1¼oz 20ga load. With longer shot charges efficient wadding becomes increasingly important to keep shot deformation at a minimum. 1¼oz loads in 20ga are put up in 3" cases. The 28ga standard was cut from 2 7/8" to 2 3/4" some yrs back, so to the best of my knowledge attempts of loading 1oz 28ga loads are all done in 2 3/4" cases. Space for good wadding becomes very limited. From a "Practical" standpoint unless your desire is for a gun of around 5¼-5½lbs, firing a 3/4oz charge, "All" advantage lays with the 20ga.
If, on the other hand, anyone enjoys walking the coverts with their 8½lb skeet 28, & handload it with only 5/8oz & it serves their purpose & they enjoy it, then walk tall & proud, it's no one elses concern. You wil though never convince me it is actually a "Better" set-up.

I'm currently infatuated with 20ga guns. Although I can see why some would find the 28ga attractive, I just don't see a practical advantage in going down from 20ga. It seems to me that there are many times fewer 28ga vintage guns than 20ga and even the 20ga guns are much rarer than 12 or 16ga. I can buy cheap ammo for my 20ga modern load capable guns. I do have some .410's when a steep challenge is what I want, so I'm just not all that keen on the 28g for those reasons.

I dunno chuck....I have personally never needed much reason to buy any gun! You wouldn't limit yourself to brunettes and blondes if a nice redhead showed up would ya?:)

You are Welcome JAS

You are Welcome JAS

I live in Gothenborg, it's near.

Chuck,
20 makes a hell of a lot of sense, and always has. The 28 makes lots of sense, too-for the gun builders that charge more for a gun in this gauge, ammunition makers, retailers, etc, you get my point.
I think a lot of 20s actually are too light, and would be better suited at 28 gauge at that weight, say, less than 6 lbs. M. McIntosh spelled out that his 28 was to weigh 6 lbs when he bought it, and a lot of 20s don't weigh that. I think that is where Gene Hill's famous (but, foolish) "20s are bitey" comment came from. Had he tried a heavier 20 ga. gun, lighter loads, or both, it may have made him a believer in the gauge, too.

You can find 12, 16 and 20 at my house of all different types, save autoloaders (for heathens). Using a 16 on real, wild pheasants last Friday, I had a big, tough old bird that took a centered hit of English 5s from my 16, which broke both wings, and penetrated both sides of his heart. He still ran like hell, and my little English Setter spent enough time and energy in pursuit that, when it was over, she laid down with the bird pinned under one paw in the corn and panted, unable to retrieve the bird to me (it was warm). Use enough gun. For late season wild pheasants, (reading this board I am begining to think real, wild pheasants are endangered, with all the talk of pen raised birds, which, is NOT hunting, not even close, which is what the original question was, I think) I don't think that gun is a 28.
Maybe grouse. Maybe woodcock. If you like spending more money, for less.
Best,
Ted

Improved modified, you have heard a lot of, I don't know what you would call it. Seems that half have shot a 28 ga. and the other half belittles it. I see you are from Utah, you still have wild birds there, so if it were up to me and I wanted a 28 ga. I would get one with 28" barels, imp.cyl/full. I don't know if you were thinking choke tubes or not. Like I said I killed a lot of pheasants, yes they were pen-raised, and yes they are slower getting up, but I still got them, and didn't use any high velocity loads, skeet loads, 7 1/2's and 9's. Wouldn't do the same with chuckers and wild pheasants, I would go to 6's. Did the same with wild quail and woodcock. Never hunted grouse much. So if you read the posts with people that have owned and shot one, you can get an idea of how they, like me, really love them. Still have that BL4 28 ga, and a imported 28 ga. sxs. Bought the imported 28 ga. in 1980 for my son going hunting on our club for him to shoot, and I still use the sxs 28 for most of my hunting for stocked birds. Wild pheasants here are non-exsistant.

I'm finding out I'm no expert shooter. Big surprise! The 20ga provides all the challenge I need most times, even with little quail. To me, it's all about getting the pattern on the bird. I seem to have sufficient difficulty, on these quick little quail and the difficult cover, with a 1 oz 12g or a 7/8 oz 20ga.

I'm not particularly sensitive (my wife says regularly) ... to recoil. Most of the 20ga guns are light enough for me to comfortably carry all day and heavy enough for me to shoot well ... well maybe just acceptably.

No question the 20 is more versatile than the 28, and the 12 more versatile than the 20--and that you can find 12's that don't weigh much over 6# if you look hard. (A friend with a Red Label 28 thought his gun was light; we put it on a scale, then my Army & Navy 12 with 28" barrels. One of us won by an ounce, but I can't remember which.)

And you can indeed find 20's that are lighter than many 28's. I think Guerini has an OU out that's under 5 1/2; Franchi 20ga OU's tend to be in that range as well. Which puts them lighter than my Parker Repro 28 by a few ounces, although my Repro 28 is half a pound lighter than my quite light Army & Navy 12, and when in the grouse woods with lots of one hand carry situations, I'd just as soon save that half pound.

The 28 is definitely a gauge where reloading pays off, big time, because as pointed out above, primers cost the same for all gauges; you use less powder and shot (which is the same price, no matter what size hull you put it in), and there's almost no difference in wad price at the club where I buy them. In other words, I can reload 28's for pretty much the same cost I can reload 12's. (Hulls are somewhat more expensive, buying them either once fired or shooting up factory shells, but that's pretty much offset by the savings in powder and shot.) And I'm not shooting enough factory shells to make anyone rich, that's for sure! So why not a 28? I mean, so what if the gauge is a little odd? So are guns that open via a sliding breech rather than a toplever!

Come on guys, we don't need a logical reason to own a gun do we? If so, my wife will be all over my gun cabinet, sending various beauties to the nearest gun store for resale.
I LOVE the 28 ga! In fact, just bought another one. I own 2 each, 12, 20 and 28 ga shotguns. Do I need that many? Don't ask my wife!
We buy/shoot guns that we like. Period.
Is the 20 more versatile than the 28? YES! So what?
Buy it if you like it and shoot it at appropriate birds (quail, woodcock, dove, etc.) and enjoy it!
That's my opinion.
MERRY CHRISTMAS, everyone!

Ray, you obviously need a 16--for no logical reason.:)

"We buy/shoot guns that we like. Period."
Ray;
My point exactly. That should be reason enough for most guns, unless one is just totally inapprropriate for the job at hand, (wouldn't take a .22LR elephant hunting, regardless how well I liked it).
Guess what made this post so long was my comments on the "Ballistic Advantages" of 16 & 28 ga's. One writer for a major publication (Not Larry) made a big popint about shotguns being "Superior" if their shot load equaled the weight of their round ball. He then correctly showeed how to find this wt by dividing 16 by the gauge & got 1.33oz for 12ga, 1oz for 16, .8oz for 20ga & .57oz for the 28ga. He then stated this showed the only available loads that exactly matched were the 1oz 16ga & 3/4oz 28ga loads. I just get irate that someone "Selling" me stories thinks I'm so ignorant I don't know that .75 & .57 are "Not" equal.
I had no intention to actually belittle the gauge itself, Only some of the totally ignorant stuff which has been written about it by some trying to "Justify" owning one.
Seems to "Just Like IT" is not good enough for some, they have to make it sound "Superior".
Agree with Larry, "You" need to show us you "Like" the 16ga, terrible hole in your battery there.

I'm a meat-and-potatoes middle-roader: 12-16-20 gauges. Guns of smaller gauges at both ends of my spectrum are effective in better hands and beauties to behold but they don't work for me. A properly fitting 16ga 0 frame comes close to the ultimate for me.

.410s for rail; 28s for woodcock; 20s for dove; 16s for grouse; 12s for everything else including leopard at close range. KBM

When I had a gun made by Grulla (working with Terry Wieland), I went with a 12 gauge on a 20-gauge frame. It's just slightly over 6 pounds with 29-inch barrels.

Not for heavy loads, of course, but it's delightful.

At some point I want to get a 28. No practical reason . . . thank goodness! Isn't it great that we can get guns "just because"??

After watching a friend take his share of South Dakota pheasants with a 20 ga O/U, I decided to start shooting one after years with 12's. The 20 was a little more challenging, of course, and it made me shoot better. I really enjoyed it and now shoot 20's on everything except waterfowl. The next year the same fella went out with a 28 and did well on pheasants--he's a good shot.

I wondered if I should try a 28, so I started looking. I found the Beretta Silver Pigeon S Combo O/U, a light weight gun with both 20 and 28 ga barrels and each with its own forearm (Sportsman's Warehouse). My wife "gave" it to me for Christmas three years ago. She only paid $400 for it! (I paid the rest :-) ).

I have enjoyed shooting both guages, but clean kills are important to me. I shoot the 28 at sporting clays enough to know it is definitely more difficult to hit with and has a shorter range because of a less dense pattern. On something as large and fast as a grouse--especially a sage grouse here in Utah--I would use no less than a 20.

But I would definitely buy a 28. It will make you a better shot with whatever else you choose to shoot and is adequate for small birds like dove, quail, etc.

CB3 in Utah

I certainly wouldn't kick a 28 out of my gun cabinet as a dedicated quail gun, but my 16 is so much fun to shoot and is so effective on everything short of big waterfowl that I just can't justify it. When I can afford to buy another gun just for the fun of it, maybe then.

Well, after the day I had in the field on Saturday, I think I could have used a BB gun and done well. Of all days to have left my .410 at home, this wasn't the right day. Luck was on my side and I would have gladly used a 28ga instead of the 20ga I had with me.

Mid September, Northern Wisconsin, lots and lots of leaves. Grouse Opener. Woodcock probably not here just yet. Tight working spaniel. Grouse flushing in your face, leaves there almost as fast.
"Close" shooting! Pull the barrel hard to the front of the bird picking leaves in front of its beak as your target, if you can still see it.
A featherweight 28 ga-heaven!
You may not get any more birds, but with the temperature above 70, your 28 ga will still make hunting a pleasure. Plus, if you constantly remember to shoot in front of the bird where you only see leaves, your dog may reward you with something warm. Otherwise, give me a 20 or a 16 for later season.

First of September, North Central Washington, Grouse opener. Temps in the 70's and lot's of up and down and through the brush. The new 870 Wingmaster is light as a feather and a delight to carry. Coming up on what looks to be a great covert the first bird flushes faster than I can act. Though there is always another close behind the gun comes up to shoulder just the same. The second one drops like a rock. Nice full featherd male, hardly looks touched, yet dead as a proverbial door nail. No other opportunities that day. After hanging in shade for a day it dressed out for the table and several No. 7 1/2 pellets had pierced it's spine. The breasts were untouched. Yup, I think I'm gonna like 28 bore for grouse.
Now to find a double... [img]http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/Album...186/t_=82420186[/img]

Some of these topics are a bit humorous to see being rehashed again and again. Like what is the ultimate shot size? This and the Model 21 topic only come down to personal preference. No more.For anyone that doesn't believe that 28 gauge is a viable option on most game birds, tells me more about their own abilities, or lack of experience with the gauge. If not for the cost of shells, the 28 would be far more used than it is currently. The 28 has killed numerous wild pheasant, chukar, turkeys, ducks and many coyotes for me, it will do the same for any of you. IF you shoot straight.

The 'gauntlet' has been thrown down!

This is of course applicable to any gauge. If both are equally choked the differense is "NOT" in pattern diameter, but pattern density. Within it's patttern density limit thus a 28 is no harder to hit with than any other gauge. Where the difference comes in is when shooting at longer ranges requires a tighter choke than would normally be used for the larger gauge. Comparing 1oz with 3/4oz "All" other things being equal the 1oz load has about a 15% range advantage over the 3/4oz load or about that % more open choke. Thus it might take a mod 28ga to "reach out" equally to an I/C 20ga. Not really enough to seperate the "Elite" & fantastic shooters from the "Slobs". What turns so many off is those who try to turn their choice of a gun into some kind of Great Status symble for "Themselves" & make themselves appear so much greater than the "Average Bear".
As to the 21, it's another double, some like it, some don't. "All" of us who don't "Are Not" jealous of those who do. I actually do like my Lefever better & have no secret desire for a 21. But again the attitude of many 21 owners turn me off far more than the gun itself.

I'm not interested in throwing down the gauntlet.
In every arena "snobbery" rises its head. This is why Starbucks coffee does so well.
I am getting older but still enjoy climbing the mountain for chukars. A light gun works well for me, open shots and relatively close shots not through underbrush.
If someone else likes to use a 20, 16, 12, more power to them. In the same way that I enjoy seeing Setter, GWP, Pointers, Brits in the field. Without having to mention that my dog is better than yours or you shouldn't use that Lab here, it should be a pointer. As a boy I shot many grouse with an 870 12 gauge, I choose not to anymore. If someone else does, more power to them.

I thought Starbucks did really well 'cause it had so much caffeine.

Easy Fred, I was just funnin.

You can say what you want about me, my wife, kids, line of work. But don't go near my dogs or my choice of gauge!!

So what I was gonna say about your dog's pattern size and your gauge being ugly, is off limits? Personally, I think my dog's pattern size is a bit larger than I'd prefer.

Didn't mean to get all frothed up! My apologies to all. In the Great Basin we prefer a dog with a larger pattern size, just turn up the beeper collar.

Funny thing about the Great Basin. The Salt Lake Olympic Committee mistranslated it into French. Instead of saying," Salt Lake is nestleled on the the edge of the Great Basin, I came out, "Salt Lake is nestled on the edge of the Big Toilet." Which depending on which way the wind blows off of the Great Salt Lake, is an entirely true statement. P.S. I passed on the 28g. that started this whole thing.