pwm,
It looks like a L.C. Smith No. 3 (grade) American side lock. Yes, it has value especially to the collectors found at LCSmith.org
Elsie's are great guns! Enjoy shooting it!
Very nice. You have a L.C. Smith Quality No. 3 made by Hunter Arms Co., Fulton New York in 1895. I believe there is a faint damascus pattern visible underneath the blueing. Nitro-3 Fluid Steel was first available on No. 3 guns in 1895 however. The top lever has been blued, and was originally case colored, as were the receiver and lockplates.
Beavertail forends were not offered until 1920, so the gun may have been restocked at some point (and I believe it was based on the wood to metal fit of the lockplate.) If you'll look underneath the trigger guard, an original stock would have the serial number stamped into the wood.
You can learn alot more on the L.C. Smith Collectors Association site
http://www.lcsmith.org/Check 'Shotguns', 'FAQ', and 'Photo Trail' on the Home Page.
Please review the 'Disassembly and Reassembly' FAQ and be sure that the hammers are cocked before reattaching the forend.
BTW: unless special ordered, Smith 12g chambers were 2 3/4" from the beginning of production
Any idea how this treasure made it to Germany?
It is a pre 1913 #3 gun and appears to have a Lairds patent single trigger. A great trigger until it goes out of adjustment then a real bear. Use light loads because Smiths were known to split stocks.
bill
thank you, I will move to the forum
In its refinished and restocked condition, it is not of interest to collectors in the U.S., and probably of less interest in Germany.
Great fotos Sir, thanks for sharing. Nice to see gun safety practiced where you live, in the fourth foto frame, the pistol (a 1911 or a clone perhaps) shown next to the writing materials has the slide back in 'open battery', good gun manners indeed. An open gun is a safer gun, however, there is no such thing in my book as a safe gun, that is a responsibility of the owner or those who handle same.
Your Smith, I believe, is a non-ejector Grade 3 12 bore-looks like from the two milled recesses in the water table flats it takes the protruding pins from the early style extractor design- complicated machining, but a smooth functioning design. I prefer pre-1913 Smiths with double triggers, ejectors or extractors, no strong preference there, as I reload AA 12 gauge loads- I have a 12 Grade 2E serial no. 1074 and with the same patent dates on the left side water table flat as your gun, just the serial number on the right flat, an ejector gun so no milled pin recesses. I guess it originally had Damascus barrels, was sent back to Fulton in the late 1920's apparently and a new set of Nitro steel 32" barrels was fitted to same.
Can you detail the barrel markings as I have done on my older Grade 2E and list them here please? So much to learn about older quality doubles, thank you in advance for sharing with us. RWTF
thank you all, RWTF you have very good eyes, its a norinco clone
this gun is part of deal and I dont know if keep it or leave it.
nobody here know anything about it but when I read l.c.smith on the lookplate's something ringing in my ears like doomsday.
of course it have no value on the german market. problem is that the single trigger have some problems which seems to be very common for this design.
I hear different oppinions, some say its restocked and refinish. another voice says the beavertail forend was available in 1920. I understand now that this means it is a orignal forend!this story make sense when another member here say the steel barrel was maybe fitted to the gun in the 1920's.
is it possible that the gun was reworked in fulton in the 20.century? when it was shoot as a pigeon gun it make sense that after 25-30 years a complete rework in Fulton was on the list. question is for me if it make sense to keep this gun and restore it. money put into this project makes only sense if the gun is to sell on the american market later again.
whats is with the original colour case on the action, polished in fulton or bubba work. good idea to make the colour case hardening again?
I have the gun again in my hand in 2 weeks.
pmw, Are the barrels serial numbered to the gun? There were two type of barrels offered then, Good Damascus and Nitro Steel for your grade gun in that year.
If the stock is original, there should be a serial number under the trigger guard in the inletted wood, as stated before.
It looks like a Pachmyer recoil pad and I believe that no recoil pads were offered in 1895, and the White Line Pachmyer is from the late 1940's I believe.
The forend is not correct. It would be a splinter typw with a piece of ebony at the tip and with a black plastic round disc of a dogs head imbedded into the forend.
The Hunter One-Trigger can be a nightmare, try backing out the one screw holding the side locks on by a half turn. If that doesn't work and you still have a problem, take the trigger guard wood screws taken out, lift the trigger guard out of the inletted wood and rotate the trigger guard counter-clockwise to reveal another screw going up to the top tang right behind the safety. Loosen this screw by half-a-turn also and try again.
By the way the Hunter One Trigger was not available until 1904 in catalogs but was put on a few guns in 1901.
The stock would have to be modified to accept the Hunter One Trigger, making it more prone to cracking with the wrong loads.
Unless guns of this age were keep in a closet out of the sun light and not handled, very few have the case-colors left. They turn that nice satin patina like yours. To have it re-cased colored means that the side plates would have to be re-annealed to make them soft again and then case hardened again. Case colors are the by-product of the case hardening process, and in this country only a few can get the L.C. Smith colors. I would leave it alone.
Good luck with it.
You are most welcome, and thanks for your kind remark on my visual acuity- still 20/20 uncorrected and as I am right handed, also a right dominant eye. Great news for a die-hard shooter like myself. I have no idea how you would sell that fine but not 100% original Smith in Germany, but if you come back to the States and wish to sell it, please advise me. What is the barrel length and barrel steel grade markings? I prefer double triggered pre-1913 Smiths and only 12 gauge. Why? I shoot 12's better than any other gauge, and only reload for 12. Also, Smith always chambered their 12 gauge guns in the std. 2.75",(except the 3" Long Range version that came out in the mid 1920's I believe) whereas some Fox, Parker and other US mfg. 12 gauge guns had shorter chambers back in that era. 16's are OK, but the early Smiths in 16 gauge had 2.5" chambers for quite some time, ditto the 20 gauge.
Also, simple economics- there were way more 12 gauge Smiths made, especially the better finished pre-1913 series, than the 16 and 20 gauges, hence greater possible supply to meet the ever growing demand. I believe I saw a 12 2E or 3E that had been restocked, also with Hunter One Trigger, in recent Action Arms Auction Site. Also, perhaps others advised you of this, but if you let the hammers down on a Smith when you store it, ALWAYS make sure you re-open the gun to recock the hammers before you dis-assemble it for cleaning, etc. RWTF
thanks
the story of this gun is something confuse
1. number shows the gun was made in 1895
2. the trigger wasnt available before 1901
3. the steel barrel was available but is maybe a replacment from the 1920 years
4. the stock isnt original but nobody can tell me if the beavertail forend looks like a original forend later replaced from fulton
what I read about the single trigger isnt amusing, a gunmaker's hour cost here 60 euro +.
I think he need the first hour to understand how the trigger works. have the gun again in my hands in two weeks und will look for the things you note + barrel length, chamber length etc.
here are two pics I dont use before because of quality, maybe it helps.
Sorry, I should have added "non original forend" to my comment that the gun has been restocked. Neither were replaced at Fulton. Have you determined that the barrels are fluid steel as opposed to blued over Damascus? Either way, the gun would have no collector value here. Any attempt at a restoration would exceed the value of the gun before it was 20% complete. Nice gun but with little cash value.
pwm, those barrels look original to the gun with the correct stampings. If they are Nitro Steel, they will be stamped as such about 2" (5 cm) past the barrels watertable (flats).
For Fulton to replace the original two triggers for a Hunter One-Trigger would cost $25.00 and in a 1948 Repair Price List the cost was $45.00 for all guns. So it wasn't uncommon for guns to be sent back to Fulton for this work.
Also as eightbore stated, I doubt that Fulton did the stock or beavertail. Whomever did it, looks like a nice job and also as stated the gun is not a collector gun but still is a good shooter.
Over here a collector gun must be all original and have nothing done to it, even if the condition is not 100%.
Thanks for the added fotos pwm. The view of the barrel lug and the protruding pins, plus the Grade stamp- 3 and the serial number are helpful. If this Smith has Nitro steel barrels, that is the original specification for a Grade 3. They were also available in a Chain Damascus. In aprox 1907 (from a reprint catalog) this fine Smith with double triggers and extractors sold at $100.00- $15.00 more for auto ejectors, and an additional $25 if you ordered the Hunter One Trigger. The lug view, plus the earlier fotos, shows to my amateur eyes at least, the earlier Syracuse NY mfg. style of extractor. I have read that there may have been some overlap or confusion in accurately tracking down early serial numbers for Smiths, no doubt due to the hand written records, tags, ledgers used back then. If your Smith has at least 28" Nitro Proof barrels, even though it has been restocked, and I can test fire it if you are back in the USA, I may be interested in buying it, assuming you wish to sell it. The engraving and the sculpting on the locks and frame of the early Smiths, also the Syracuse Dan LeFevers, is first rate in my book. You have a fine gun, and it may not be original, but if you like it, and can shoot it comfortably and kill your birds cleanly with it, I would keep it. RWTF-- Guten Tag mein Fruend!!
RWTF please send an email to pwm.larsboettcher$gmx.net
replace the $ with an @
PWM- aka Herr Boettcher- Ich tue diese Pfosteneile!!PS- besides the Norinco copy of the great John Browning 1911-A-1 pistol (I carried one while in the Service as a TO weapon) I also noticed the partial views of two men sitting on the table, more of the legs and lower body, and the boots- with the heavy terrain tread design, also the Rucks on the table and other gear (no ALICE packs though) makes me wonder if the two men partially shown are Military or were formerly in a branch of the Military? Just curious. PS added 12/Mar- I took your asking price in euros to Chase- at current exchange rate that is a fairly favourable price, and were it original (perpetual virgin et al) it would be very favourable indeed. And a wire transfer of funds from US $ to DeutcheBank is only $20 US- what stops me from going ahead is the unknowns here- I have the old time habit of only buying a gun I can physically examine, and possible test fire. If we went through the international network and complied with the FFL rules here in the States, it would be almost impossible to set up the usual 3 day inspection/return for refund that ALL legitimate gun dealers offer their customers. Also, all my double, whether ejector or extractor gun, have two triggers and I would tread lightly with a Hunter One Trigger until I had friend Buck Hamlin check it out- all extra $ and time-Is there a chance, with your military pal Herr HauptFeldwebel that you could see it there in Germany to perhaps an American at one of the many Military bases? MY C.O. at Quantico loved Smith and LeFever guns, collected them and hunted with them, there might be a Bird Col. over there with deep pockets that would like to own that sweet old Elsie of yours. Might be worth looking into, and I hope you get that fine Mauser BA rifle you want. Prost!!
