The enclosed link looks to be an extremely comprehensive presentation of what is known about lead impacts to wildlife.
NEWS RELEASE
For immediate release
Feb. 19, 2009
CONTACT
Susan Whaley, public relations coordinator
(208) 362-8274 direct
(208) 860-2641 cell
(208) 362-3716 main
Now available online: Proceedings from conference, ³Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans²
BOISE, Idaho - Research on the effects and risks of lead exposure from spent bullet fragments and shot is now available online.
The documents are proceedings from the conference, ³Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans,² convened May 12-15, 2008, by The Peregrine Fund, Boise State University, Tufts Center for Conservation Medicine, and the US Geological Survey. The conference for the first time brought together professionals in wildlife and human health to share information on the toxic effects of this source of lead contamination.
Conference attendees offered a relatively easy solution: switch to non-lead bullets and shot. Such ammunition is available in most popular calibers and is considered by many hunters to be as good as or better than traditional lead ammunition. Experts said manufacturers will respond to demand, thus solving the problem.
Individual papers may be downloaded at:
http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_confe ... edings.htm <http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_conference/2008PbConf_Proceedings.htm>
An overwhelming weight of evidence presented at the conference shows that:
· Lead is toxic. It sickens and can kill at high levels of exposure, but even near the lowest detectable levels, lead has measurable health effects, including reduced IQ in children and increased risk of death from heart attack and stroke in adults.
· Lead from spent ammunition gets into people who eat game harvested with lead bullets or shot, with clinical effects among subsistence hunters. Effects among recreational hunters have not been adequately studied.
· Lead from spent ammunition gets into a wide variety of wildlife, including doves, swans, eagles, condors, and mammalian scavengers, regularly sickening and killing some.
· Non-lead bullets and shot are available as an alternative to lead for most uses.
The roughly 400 pages of the proceedings consist of more than 60 contributions from scientists and professionals in the fields of wildlife, health, and shooting sports. The conference documented evidence from around the world of:
· Effects of lead poisoning on wildlife that consume lead bullet fragments or lead shot when they forage.
· Lead exposure in people who eat game harvested with lead-based bullets or shot.
· Effects of lead on human health at minute levels that were formerly thought benign and currently are not recognized by many health agencies.
· Lead bullet fragmentation in game meat, extent of contamination of game meat from bullet fragments, and the potential for human exposure to lead from this source.
· Solutions to the problem of lead exposure from bullet fragments in both wildlife and people, with practical examples from Arizona and California where voluntary and legislative measures have been implemented on behalf of the California Condor, and from Germany and Japan on behalf of sea-eagles and human health concerns.
· Exposure to lead from other sources including fishing tackle, paints, and ceramics having significant negative health effects on wildlife and people.
The Peregrine Fund, a conservation group for birds of prey, convened the conference after a decade of research on wild California Condors in the Grand Canyon region of Arizona revealed that lead exposure from spent ammunition is the most important factor impeding the full recovery of the species in the area. The research also suggested that lead from spent ammunition could be a concern to people who eat game harvested with lead bullets or shot shells.
Efforts by the Arizona Game and Fish Department to encourage hunters to voluntarily reduce lead exposure of condors influenced 90% of hunters in the 2008 hunting season to use solid copper bullets as an alternative to lead-based ammunition or remove all remains of their harvest from the landscape. As a result, no condors died from lead poisoning this season.
For the record, this is the same Ben Deeble, biologist with the National Wildlife Federation who has been leading the charge to banish lead shot and bullets in Montana. You might find it edifying to look up his message profile for this bbs.
Rob Harris
For the record, Robert Harris is incorrect, and knows it.
What I posted above is the Proceedings of a conference held last year by the Peregrine Fund. I wasn't at the conference, and haven't read the entire set of over 50 reports yet. But I thought it would be interesting reading for the people here who want to know the state of research on lead impacts to wildlife, and alternatives to reduce lead releases into the environment.
Read the scientific reports and learn something....
Grouse Guy your link doesn't work.
Best,
Mike
No, Robert is not "incorrect".....which is why I asked any interested readers (and believe me, you'd have to be interested)to look up Mr. Deeble's message profile...mine for that matter, too). Covers everything from banning lead to Obama, which isn't too big a spread really. That's all I have to say on the matter, you fellows be the judge of what's going on here.
Robert Harris
Conner, MT
I'm with Robt.Harris and AmarilloMike on this......
Regards,
Hello Gents:
Maybe this link will work better for the copy-and-paste impaired....
http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_conference/2008PbConf_Proceedings.htmAlso, as chummy as schoolyard intimidation and book burning may make some of you feel, perhaps you should read some of the scientific reports rather than just snipe at the messenger?
For those that want to question my bona fides, I've been hunting since I was 10, reload and target shoot around 1000 high power rifle and shotgun rounds a year (mostly lead-based), and have been harvesting 50-150 wild upland birds, waterfowl and big game animals annually for the last 20 years (mostly steel/bismuth/copper ammo). I plan to continue both.
"Evolve or perish" whispered the bird to the dinosaur. The dinosaur should have listened.
Sounds like Grouse guy drank the same koolaid that Will S and OWD did and supports the "community oganizer in chief"
GG your NOT a fellow gun owner and should be treated as such.
I am with Robert Harris on this one NO SALE GG
Study is flawed and poster is too !
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" said Chicken Little to Fox. Fox said "Come over here Chicken Little and I will give you a helmet." Chicken Little shouldn't have listened to Fox.
Also, as chummy as schoolyard intimidation and book burning may make some of you feel, perhaps you should read some of the scientific reports rather than just snipe at the messenger?
How about someone trying to slander and intimidate a tradesman because he publicly disputed a view held by the imtimidator.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post105489And I tried to read them but the link didn’t work. Didn’t see the address below it.
Mike
As a writer, I get a lot of press releases. Several months back. I got a press release from the Wildlife Federation saying they had studies that showed how dangerous lead was and how it contaminated meat of game animals. I emailed the sender back and requested the data, the email was never answered. I requested it 3 times.
No matter what your politics are, whether you are truly concerned about the environment or not, I can assure you that these people are more intersted in raising money and keeping their high paying non profit organization jobs than anything else and will say anything. They thrive on misinformation. The studies they cite are outcome based. They are not out to save animals, they are in it for the money and to put shooters, fishermen and hunters out of the field.
If you only have classic Purdeys or your closet is full of AKS semi autos makes no difference to them. They won't rest untill they have milked every dime out of the issue.
Dick Jones
Hello Dick:
I believe you are probably mistaken.
If not, show us either the press release, or the email address of the person with the "wildlife federation" you attempted to contact.
I am not mistaken.
After the third request, I wrote the story I was working on using real studies and deleted the post. I no longer would use the Wildlife Federation as a source and only read their releases for entertainment value.
Who do the authors of your study work for?
Dick
Found it I found an email I had sent to her requesting the study. The email was deleted but the sender was Mary Burnette <burnette@nwf.org> my last request was on OCt 24 2008 I never got a response. Here is my sent message:
A while back, you made an statement about the toxicity to lead. Did you ever get that data I asked about?
Best, Dick
Mary Burnette <burnette@nwf.org>
Gentlemen,I am a devout opponent of the Greenies.Here in Shropshire at a place called Minsterley we have been mining Lead since Roman times.There is no evidence of lower IQ's in this area or an increase of carcenagenic related deaths.In fact Darwin was born and bred less than seven miles away, Houseman wrote his poetry a mile up the hill.We also used to have a lead acid battery main manufacturer and their employees are not dropping like flies.
So once again I plead
SHOW ME THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE not the bullshit for your degree thesis.
Grouse Guy, Hello... Hello.....
Dear Dick:
You have gotten yourself all confused somehow.
I'm not sure what the press release said, because I've never seen it, and you can't find it.
But to my knowledge, NWF has not anytime in the last decade conducted a study on lead toxicity in hunter's diets or wildlife, but many others have.
See 50+ studies at
http://www.peregrinefund.org/Lead_conference/2008PbConf_Proceedings.htmRead them, and report back! Can't wait to hear from you.
Ben
Montana Ben/Grouse Guy
I don't think I'm confused.
You never answered my question about who the guys who compiled your report work for. By the way, who do you work for?
My name is Dick Jones, a sample of my writing can be seen at offtheporchmedia.com
What's your name?
Dick:
My name is at the top of this thread. And we haven't written or compiled a report. You still confused, or maybe on the bottle already tonight?
NWF hasn't issued a press release on lead in the last year, your suggestion you got one from Mary Burnette was characterized as "baloney". But we are about to.
What are you shooting all those ducks with in your stories? Lead? Or are they just stories?
I'm still waiting for your report to us after you read all (some? any?) of the science provided.
Regards,
Ben
Dick:
My name is at the top of this thread. And we haven't written or compiled a report. You still confused?
NWF hasn't issued a press release on lead in the last year, your suggestion you got one from NWF was characterized as "baloney".
What are you shooting all those ducks with in your stories? Lead? Or are they just stories?
I'm still waiting for your report to us after you read all (some? any?) of the science provided.
Regards,
Ben
I poked around a bit with google and the referenced works. This is the only actual raw data I found that applied to my hunting. They shot and killed Blues (quail), Bobwhites, and dove around stock tanks in Southeastern New Mexico in 1985, 1986, and 1987. From the abstract paragraph:
Out of 226 scaled quail they found one with a lead pellet in the gizzard.
Out of 111 Bobwhites they found two with lead pellets in their gizzards.
They found about 5% had lead in their livers of at least 7 parts per million. I don't know the rate at which lead gets to be a problem for quail but it is obviously not a big problem for upland game in the Southwest.
I am not sure what they mean but they state that quail in Southeastern New Mexico have easy access to lead. That may mean that there is a lot of lead in the enviroment. They do mention the gravel at the side of the roads as a possible source of lead. I guess that that source has certainly been diluted in the last twenty years and the elimination of lead from gasoline.
http://www.auburn.edu/cosam/departments/biology/faculty/webpages/best/PDFs/1992aBestEtAl.pdfI will concede that it did surprise that they even found one bird with pellets in it gizzard, much less three. I would have guessed one in a million birds on any given day would have a lead pellet in their gizzard.
Grouse Guy Ben Deeble is a flake. We have been through this before with this guy. He has NO credibility in the State of Montana, is a proven warper of facts to suit his own agenda. It is a waste of keystrokes to debate with him as his comprehension level is earthworm grade. Go away Deeble, no takers here...
I must be drinking, your name is Susan Whaley, public relations coordinator?
"NWF hasn't issued a press release on lead in the last year"
The main subject was not lead but it was alleged in the release. You are ignorant or a liar. Since you refuse to tell us who you work for, you must have some reluctance to lie so I'll assume the former.
If I had been using lead, there would have probably been more ducks.
I can assure you, Susan or Ben, or whoever you are, that this just makes you look silly and you're not fooling anyone.
Here is my most recent story on lead: It's possible that the links may not be current, I ran this story a couple of months ago.
Notice the tactics used by the poser who pretended to be a hunter. Remind you of anyone?
The new Issue for the Anti Hunting Groups, Lead
As if hunters and shooters didn’t have enough targets on their backs, there is a new and dangerous issue looming on the horizon. Recently, there have been press releases coming from animal rights and environmental groups alleging that hunters and shooters are polluting the earth with lead bullets and lead shot and that meat donated through organizations like Hunters for the Hungry is causing a health hazard for those consuming it. As with many extreme movements, California is in the lead.
In December 2007, California banned the use of ammunition containing lead in the parts of the state that are in the range of the California Condor (about 20% of the state). The reason given was that condors were dying of lead poisoning though there was no definite evidence that the lead poisoning came from lead from ammunition. The ban includes centerfire rifle and pistol ammunition and 22 rimfire ammunition used in the taking of nongame animals. Starting July 1, the new rules ban the use and possession of bullets containing more than 1 percent lead in condor country. A violation by a hunter is a misdemeanor punishable by up to a $1,000 fine and a year in jail.
Some condors have shown elevated levels of lead, a naturally occurring element found in batteries, light bulbs, paint chips and many other items commonly found in condor nests; incidentally, these lead-based items have never been tested as a possible source of elevated lead levels in condors. This is especially noteworthy when one considers that there is no credible scientific evidence to support the notion that higher lead levels in condors are due to the ingestion of ammunition fragments. Regardless of the fact the law is not based on science, it stands.
In the Midwest, the issue concerned the consumption of venison shot with jacketed lead bullets. In a statement issued December 3rd, after X-ray tests detected lead fragments in venison samples collected from meat processors, the Minnesota Department of Agriculture announced it will now X-ray all deer meat donated to food shelves under the Minnesota Hunter Harvested Venison Donation Program. This will add an additional 25 cents per pound to the processing cost of the donated meat. This new policy was based on a North Dakota study that claimed that 30% of donated meat contained lead fragments and constituted a health hazard.
The National Shooting Sports Foundation was critical of the North Dakota Department of Health when the Department
overreacted to a non-peer reviewed study by a dermatologist who claimed to have collected packages of venison from food banks that contained lead fragments. North Dakota health officials did not conduct their own study, but merely accepted the lead-contaminated meat samples from the dermatologist. The ND Department of Health then ordered all food banks to discard their venison. Serious questions were raised in a subsequent investigative journalism piece published this summer about the scientific validity of the testing of venison samples from the ND food pantries, including concerns regarding the non-random selection of the samples.
According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, it has since come to light that the dermatologist's efforts were not the independent actions of a concerned hunter, as he claimed. It was an orchestrated strategy by the Peregrine Fund -- an organization dedicated to eliminating the use of lead ammunition for hunting. The dermatologist serves on the Fund's Board of Directors.
Now, Minnesota is set to test up to 25,000 pounds of venison intended for food banks in the state, having the meat X-rayed before it is distributed. The decision came when random testing revealed that 5.3 percent of sampled deer meat contained “lead fragments.” The end result is that, in a time when the food donated by hunters is most needed, the cost of processing it has been almost doubled.
Despite there being no scientific evidence to support the hypothesis that lead ammunition is endangering the health of individuals or that lead from hunters bullets has anything to do with the lead found in the California Condor, anti-hunting interest groups are continuing to press state legislatures around the country to support a ban on traditional ammunition. These politically driven groups understand that while an outright ban on hunting would be nearly impossible to achieve, dismantling the culture of hunting one step at a time is a substitute goal. Banning lead ammunition is a first step -- a step that is literally taking the food out of the mouths of the hungry, unnecessarily, to advance a political agenda.
To access the National Shooting Sports Foundations lead information go to nssf.org, click on Member Services and access the Lead Ammunition bar under Fast Facts
To see the National Rifle Association’s position on these issues go to nra.org and click on Top News Stories
Dear Dick:
Three studies poorly refuted by your "writing" fails to impress. I mean, if this is so important to you, couldn't you be a little more thorough?
Maybe not, because you apparently can't even digest this thread.
Maybe I shouldn't ask you to report back to us.... OK, don't.
Last Dollar, you ever been to Montana? I didn't think so.
Cheers,
Ben
Grouse Guy is a hard core B Hussien supporting liberal.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post119756He needs to be outed for what he is; NO friend to hunters or gun owners.
[quote=Dick Jones otp]I must be drinking, your name is Susan Whaley, public relations coordinator? /quote]
Dick, Thanks for the reprint of your article which is a pretty good synopsis of U.S. lead ban developments in the past year or two.
The fellow you are trying to have a discourse with is Ben Deeble, a regional bird biologist with the National Wildlife Federation, based out of Missoula, MT. He is also the past president and active board member of an upland conservation organization called Big Sky Upland Bird Assoc., also out of Missoula. This is the group who directors, at Ben's behest, forwarded a lead phase-out study resolution that Deeble drafted for the Montana Wildlife Federation for action and delivery to our state FWP people. Details of all of this can be read either by using the links Amarillo Mike copied for us in this thread, or by looking at our individual message profiles. Too much to go through again here....yet 'Thanks' to those of you who helped to reveal here what we're dealing with re: this agenda.
Rob Harris
Grouse Guy you obviously have an agenda. The threads you started here recently leave no doubt. By the way, I think it is perfectly acceptable to have an agenda. Could you be a little more specific on what your point is? Do you want Sage Grouse hunters to quit using lead? Do you want deer hunters to quit using lead or do you want Sora Rail hunters to quit using lead (isn't that already done - migratory waterbird)? Do you want Pheasant hunters in Soutwestern Kansas to quit using lead? Do you want Bobwhite hunters in Texas to quit using lead? Or is it Clays clubs? Or is it White Wing hunters in South Texas pass shooting dove?
Or is it all of these?
About half of the domestic water systems in the United States are copper pipe soldered with lead. It is no longer allowed but the law didn't require the old lead soldered systems to be replaced because the blood lead levels were acceptable and the money could be better spent elsewhere.
I read some of your stuff on Sage Grouse. I never saw you mention lead shot as a problem. Oil wells, loss of habitat, roads, etc... were what you were hammering on in what I could find.
The fact that game animals have some lead level in their bodies doesn't convince me that lead needs to be eliminated from hunting.
This is akin to the science that had us spend hundreds of billions of dollars to remove perfectly contained asbestos from schools and public building twenty years ago.
I repeat. What is it you recommend we change?
Best,
Mike
I think it best that we just ignore susan or ben or whoever it is. The point is that those who buy into the radical side of arguments like this and still think these people are reasonable should learn something from this.
All who love the outdoors would hardly do anything to harm it. We, as hunters and anglers are the original conservationalists. We started the movement. The emotional, disillusioned individuals who are trying to end hunting, shooting, and fishing are sincere and mean well. They also believe that the end justifies the means and aren't bothered by facts. Many are motivated by the fact that it's easy to seperate emotional people who love animals from their money.
There is hyperbole on both sides, but I will assure you that these groups, Defenders of Wildlife, The Sierra Club, The Audubon Society, The National Wildlife Federation, etc may have been real conservation groups at one time, but they have one agenda now, to stop fishng and hunting.
If you had any doubts before, Montana Ben or Grouse Guy should have answered you questions.
Best, Dick Jones
Hello Mr. Jones, etc:
For those that want to question my bona fides, I've been hunting since I was 10, reload and target shoot around 1000 high power rifle and shotgun rounds a year (mostly lead-based), and have been harvesting 50-150 wild upland birds, waterfowl and big game animals annually for the last 20 years (mostly steel/bismuth/copper ammo). I plan to continue both. Need pictures?
Regards,
Ben
P.S. "Evolve" whispered the bird to the dinosaur. The dinosaur should have listened. Uh oh. I supposed I just started another argument....
"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" said Chicken Little to Fox. Fox said "Come over here Chicken Little and I will give you a helmet." Chicken Little shouldn't have listened to Fox.
Why you repeated yourself went over my head.
Again, what is it that you are trying to get people to change about how they shoot?
Or are you just trolling - baiting the reactionaries and the ignorant rednecks (in your mind)?
Best,
Mike
Mike:
Read the studies, and you'll answer your own question.
Then we'll have something to talk about, or at least debate. Right now I'm boxing with a bunch of blind men. No fun. Really.
Signing off until the first of the many "experts" on this website does their homework....
Ben
Well I am sorry punching us around is no fun for you.
How about the study I linked to. Do you have any comments on it. I didn't read anything that made me feel like changing my hunting protocol, lead shot and all.
Best,
Mike
Deeble you Jerk! have I ever been to Montana? yes, last week in point of fact. Am I comeing back? yes, 7-8th of next month. Have you ever been to reality? I doubt it, you sack of s**t.When did you move to Montana from California? You are really tiresome.......
From a study at Dartmouth:
"Iron overdoses can be severe in human beings, especially children, but its effects within ecosystems can be far more widespread and circuitous. As with humans, iron is essential to most living organisms. Animals, plants, and even bacteria require the metal for proper metabolism. However, when human activities alter the geochemistry within an ecosystem and allow for chemical interactions with iron that would not normally occur in nature, iron quickly becomes an accomplice in many insidious environmental problems."
When lead shot has been successfully banned there will be an effort to do the same with steel shot. Based on the study not only can increases in iron cause "insidious environmental problems" but iron poison is the #1 cause of death by poisoning to children. It occurs when children get adult vitamins but that bit of information will certainly be omitted. It is guaranteed that the average dolt will be easily convinced that if iron kills more children than any other form of poison we should stop firing it from guns.
So why has there been no push to stop its use already? Because most of those that sit idly by while lead is being further restricted wouldn't if they realized that steel is next in line for the chopping block. Instead the same people that are pushing to ban lead will wait until hunters and/or shooters have shot themselves in the foot by letting lead shot be further restricted or banned. Let's not let that happen, and let's certainly not let the Deebles out there shoot us in the back.
I am aware of a couple of situations where non-toxic shot restrictions have been relaxed or repealed. The only federally mandated restriction on lead shot is for waterfowl. Any other restrictions are made at the state level and can be overturned. If your state has additional restrictions on the use of lead I recommend that you get some supportive data and go on the offensive. The only way you will stop the ever expanding agenda of the eco-nazis is to fight back.
Hello Mr. Jones, etc:
For those that want to question my bona fides, I've been hunting since I was 10, reload and target shoot around 1000 high power rifle and shotgun rounds a year (mostly lead-based), and have been harvesting 50-150 wild upland birds, waterfowl and big game animals annually for the last 20 years (mostly steel/bismuth/copper ammo). I plan to continue both. Need pictures?
Regards,
Ben
With "extensive" experience like that, plenty of us would be quite right to question your bona fides.
RG
Might even question his sanity.
Grouse Guy, what is the name of this website? Would you expect, posting on a website called doublegunshop--most of the participants of which shoot classic side by sides through which steel should not be shot--that you would receive a warm welcome when you post about the dangers of lead? Yup, you bet . . . we all want to run out and pay $3 a pop for those costly nontoxic alternatives to steel, just so we can continue to shoot our classic doubles. Makes perfect sense to me.
Raptors occasionally die as a result of secondary ingestion of lead. That's obviously of concern to an organization called "The Peregrine Fund". However, what they, you, and everyone else concerned have to remember is this: Unless a wildlife species is endangered or threatened (like the condor, for example), you do not manage the species based on occasional fatalities to individual members of that species. You manage the species based on the overall health of the species. Back when lead was banned for waterfowl, the eagle was one of the "poster birds", because eagles were dying from secondary ingestion of lead from unrecovered waterfowl. Well, the raptor rehabilitators here in Iowa tell me that's still happening--now mostly (or so they think) from unrecovered deer. A dead deer has to look like a pretty decent meal to a hungry bald eagle! However, is the species in trouble because of deaths due to lead ingestion? Au contraire! Bald eagles went from endangered to threatened to delisted. In Iowa, we went from two nesting pairs in the mid-80's to 200 nesting pairs currently. The most recent midwinter bird survey in Iowa counted 3,000 bald eagles. So, while lead may indeed be a problem for individual eagles, the species is not only not hurting as a result, but is in fact thriving.
If something ain't broke, it's not a good idea to try to fix it, because you're very likely to break something else in the process. Steel remains more expensive than lead. The major threat to wildlife, as far as hunting is concerned, comes from crippling. Steel is not as efficient as lead, and it is also more expensive--which means shooters will practice less if lead is banned. (They're likely going to practice less as it is, given the economy. So we want to add an additional expense on top of the economic problems?) So what do we end up doing? Crippling and losing more gamebirds. The raptor people might not mind that. More food for their preferred species, and none of that nasty old lead for them to ingest.
I suspect that Ben doesn't give his name because he's not authorized to speak for NWF. He certainly is not helping them with his ham fisted approach. I would suggest that someone forward this thread over to them. I suspect they wouldn't be to happy with it.
I can see it in California where most of the liberals live and breath fretting over birds and such, until, of course, the plane they're on flying to a hippie convention to outlaw all guns and hunting, sucks one of these giant birds into an engine, then its shoot and kill them all they're nothing but pests, but Montana and Minnesota and South Dakota where the word 'Hunting' is stamped into people's DNA and they're calling for an end to lead bullets and shot!!!
This is terrible absolutely terrible, because if it happens there, in the wide open spaces of Montana and South Dakota, what chance do the rest of us have.
WOW, I checked a few of the papers from that conference. I doubt if any of them would ever get published in a peer reviewed science journal.
For example, here is a paper by Micheal J Kosnett entitled "Health Effects of Low Dose Lead Exposure in Adults and Children, and Preventable Risk Posed by the Consumption of Game Meat Harvested with Lead Ammunition".
Here is a quote from that paper:
"The North Dakota Department of Health, in conjunction with the National Center for Environmental Health of the US CDC, recently conducted a survey of blood lead concentrations among a convenience sample of 740 individuals, 80.8% of whom reported a history of wild game consumption, predominantly venison (Iqbal et al. 2008). Almost all of the subjects were adults, with the exception of 7 subjects between the ages of 2 to 5 years (0.9%), and 12 subjects between the ages of 6 to 14 years (1.6%). The geometric mean blood lead concentration was 1.17 μg/dL (range 0.18 to 9.82 μg/dL), lower than the U S population geometric mean of 1.56 μg/dL for adults 20 years of age and older (CDC 2005a). Eight participants (1.1%) had blood lead concentrations ≥ 5 μg/dL. In multivariate analysis that adjusted for age, sex, race, age of housing, and leadrelated occupations and hobbies, individuals who reported consuming game meat had an increment in blood lead of 0.3 μg/dL (95% C.I. 0.157, 0.443). In like manner, individuals who had consumed game meat within the past month had a covariate-adjusted blood lead concentration that was 0.3 to 0.4 μg/dL higher than those who had last consumed it more than 6 months ago. Based upon the findings of this survey, the North Dakota Department of Health advised that pregnant women and children younger than 6 years of age should not eat venison harvested with lead bullets (NDDH 2008)."
My reading of that extract shows that the people surveyed had blood lead concentrations which were 0.39 μg/dL lower than the general population even though over 80% of them consumed wild game meat. Even the ones who had a wild game meal within the past six months only increased their blood level by 0.3 μg/dL, which still did not bring their levels up to the general population.
This paper also shows a graph of blood lead levels over the past 30 years, it drops from 15 μg/dL to about 1.5 μg/dL which is most likely due to the elimination of leaded gasoline.
I've been rereading the Kosnett article, too. First, it is not a primary scientific investigation. Ie., nothing new is presented therein.
Superficially, at least, it is a retrospective review of selected studies. This brings us to question one: how were studies selected for inclusion? And, what studies containing contradictory evidence were left out. A decent meta-analysis will try to tackle conflicting data and, if justified, admit that no conclusion can be drawn.
The paper suffers from frequent use of generalizations lacking citations. A former business partner was fond of saying "a good many of us feel.....". Of course, she was speaking of herself. This approach ought to be anathema in a review article but, frankly, I see it all too often.
Finally, the agenda-driven bias shows up in a desire to connect dots that are widely separated. What this means is that the individual studies may have validity, but the author has chosen to extapolate significance.
Its an interesting read, though.
Sam
[quote=Grouse Guy]Hello Mr. Jones, etc:
For those that want to question my bona fides, I've been hunting since I was 10, reload and target shoot around 1000 high power rifle and shotgun rounds a year (mostly lead-based), and have been harvesting 50-150 wild upland birds, waterfowl and big game animals annually for the last 20 years (mostly steel/bismuth/copper ammo). I plan to continue both. Need pictures? [quote]
So here we have a guy who passionately proclaims that lead ammo will doom his precious peregrine falcons and cause all the worlds' children to become retarded. Then these retarded children are further doomed to premature death from heart attacks and strokes. Yet he says he is annually flinging around 1000 rounds of this deadly lead poison himself, and will continue to do so. Sounds kind of disingenuous to me... kind of like Al Gore flying around burning up thousands of gallons of jet fuel to promote his carbon caps and global warming lie. The emperor has no clothes. As much as I'd like to ignore these totally transparent agenda driven hippocrites (Grouse Guy and Al Gore), we can't afford to. It's that kind of thinking that allowed Obama to slide into office on a fairly thin 53% to 47% margin, and call it a mandate to change this country from a republic to a socialist state.
And Grouse Guy keeps coming back here with his lies. He gets refuted and thoroughly exposed for who and what he is. He goes away for a while, and then when he thinks we've all become stupid, he returns. Apparently he thinks having brain damage makes him an expert on it's causes. It's a sad case.
This is a great time to be alive, intensions have been made clear. We're seeing the evil we've feared now in the light of day. Look the beast in the eyes, and save your lead for the revolution.
Need pictures? So here we have a guy who passionately proclaims that lead ammo will doom his precious peregrine falcons and cause all the worlds' children to become retarded. Then these retarded children are further doomed to premature death from heart attacks and strokes. Yet he says he is annually flinging around 1000 rounds of this deadly lead poison himself, and will continue to do so. Sounds kind of disingenuous to me... As much as I'd like to ignore these totally transparent agenda driven hippocrites (Grouse Guy and Al Gore), we can't afford to. And Grouse Guy keeps coming back here with his lies. He gets refuted and thoroughly exposed for who and what he is. He goes away for a while, and then when he thinks we've all become stupid, he returns. Apparently he thinks having brain damage makes him an expert on it's causes. It's a sad case.
'Thanks' Keith....and that is exactly 'why' I called him up prior to an organized shoot to ask what type of shot he'd be shooting that day. (To understand that, please read his post on Page 2 of the Tungsten Shot News thread). Truth is, he did not answer me, but the President of Big Sky Upland Bird Assoc, the shoot's head organizer, did upon being asked- who told me the morning of the Shoot that Deeble would in fact, be using lead. I asked because, I too, thought it hypocritical to be harping to this board & BSUBA members on giving up lead, and then still be using it himself.
(Again from Pg. 2 Tungsten Shot News) A smidgeon of truth here from Deeble is that he did squad immediately in front of me, as he stated - which is why I was able to notice him 'throwing in the towel' after shooting only four or five stations- so, we should allow that he didn't spew out as much lead that day as he could have, and Kudos to Ben in that instance. Actually, there are a few members of this board who can post to confirm all of this, as they were at the same BSUBA shoot last fall.
(ref. Pg. 2 Tungsten thread) And while we are clearing the air, Benjamin knows full well I did not take out a loan against my home to purchase his Wm. Cashmore..... but he could possibly know that I took out an $800 personal loan through my C.U. to add to my cash on hand to meet your $3900 price tag. Okay, Okay, so I liked the gun....
Are you fellas are starting to see that Mr. Deeble is about as 'trustworthy' as the new administration he voted for.....you know re: "full transparency", "no lobbyists in the admin", "no earmarks", etc., etc. You would think he was using their 'playbook'.....
If you doubt this, just check out the links to Mr. Deeble's past posts to this bbs. which 'Amarillo Mike' justifiably listed earlier in this thread. This is all I'm going to say on either of these two threads, as one cannot outlast Ben Deeble when it comes to quibbling.
In closing, it pains me to admit this, but I'm starting to agree with Lowell on this one, .....almost time to 'lock and load'.
Respectfully,
Rob Harris
Conner, MT
[quote=keith]
For those that want to question my bona fides, I've been hunting since I was 10, reload and target shoot around 1000 high power rifle and shotgun rounds a year (mostly lead-based), and have been harvesting 50-150 wild upland birds, waterfowl and big game animals annually for the last 20 years (mostly steel/bismuth/copper ammo). I plan to continue both. Need pictures?
So here we have a guy who passionately proclaims that lead ammo will doom his precious peregrine falcons and cause all the worlds' children to become retarded. Then these retarded children are further doomed to premature death from heart attacks and strokes. Yet he says he is annually flinging around 1000 rounds of this deadly lead poison himself, and will continue to do so. Sounds kind of disingenuous to me... kind of like Al Gore flying around burning up thousands of gallons of jet fuel to promote his carbon caps and global warming lie. The emperor has no clothes. As much as I'd like to ignore these totally transparent agenda driven hippocrites (Grouse Guy and Al Gore), we can't afford to. It's that kind of thinking that allowed Obama to slide into office on a fairly thin 53% to 47% margin, and call it a mandate to change this country from a republic to a socialist state.
And Grouse Guy keeps coming back here with his lies. He gets refuted and thoroughly exposed for who and what he is. He goes away for a while, and then when he thinks we've all become stupid, he returns. Apparently he thinks having brain damage makes him an expert on it's causes. It's a sad case.
EXACTLY CORRECT Keith....This rude GG must be from California.....Berkley is full of liberal false science weirdo's....next he will want to stop the wind generators in Montana so the sparrows can nest without danger........he should do another false science study on that.........or how about the missle silo's around Lewistown....study that.....Study Obama's lack of knowledge and experience and do a paper.....
IMPEACH OBAMA SOON..!
Best...
Hello Double Gun folks:
I'm about to leave my computer for a bit, and want to do so with a couple thoughts and observations.
- Whether you perceive it as such or not, I've tried to give you a gift, a link to over 50 of the state-of-the-art studies on lead as related to wildlife and public health. This is the science that may impact you, your collection, and your sport. You need to understand both its depth and limitations.
- The use of lead is going to be around in many forms for a long time. But read the tea leaves from across the world, across the nation, and of your own experiences from the last couple years and decades... discharge of lead into the public's wildlife, water and lands will become more limited and more expensive, no matter where you live or what government you elect.
- Personally, I would like to be shooting my own great-grandfather's Parker forever. I hope to be able to shoot lead shot at targets on private ranges for as long as it is affordable, and with non-toxic shot at game for as long as hunting seasons exist. To the latter, I purchased as many Bismuth cartridges as I could afford last week for just a little over $1ea. in my door.
- Entrepreneurs need to recognize the opportunities ahead as the markets shift both by consumer preference, product price point, and by restrictions. There was a great article circulating a few years ago about Aborigines in the swamps of northern Australia who had gotten some bismuth ore and were pouring their own shot using a simple smelter/nipple/shot table set-up. They live on the resulting geese killed with colonial-era doubles. If they can get 'er done, why can't Americans (individuals, clubs, or businesses)?
- Government and shooting facilities can play a positive role in the transition. Gunners should demand one-for-one ammo swaps (non-toxic for toxic) whenever any of their home stockpiles are restricted in use. In my personal opinion, if a gun range prohibits the use of lead, they should trade you for a non-toxic alternative, or you should take your business elsewhere.
- pay attention to the chatter amongst the professional associations, not just the organizations whether on the left or right of the spectrum that want you to "fight" something by giving them money. Observe the trends, and start working towards lasting new solutions.
Finally, to the few of you near and far who have threatened me with "lock and load" type intimations of bodily harm from your firearms, it is really stupid to do that in writing. I feel both the 1st and 2nd amendments can work in harmony. The law is clear on these issues.
Just the mere thought of lead must have effected your brain cells because I never saw where anyone threatened you with bodily harm.
I wish that the discussion would have less passion and that the members of the board would use the internet to review more information.Lead is not of itself a big deal;however, it has been used for many thousands of years. Even pottery that used lead based pigments has been proved to be toxic.So what? Do not forget that all will die at some time after they are concieved.
Silver and Gold make a man bold,but a little lead will make him dead" --The Sheriff (Gran'pappy's Pistol -1956)
'
If this moron comes back, I swear I'm going to shoot a perigrine falcon (with lead shot) and eat it. Why is he away from his computer... perhaps out walking the Montana roadsides, picking up lead wheelweights?
Diane and I plan on attending the MWF dinner in Helena Mt. on the 18th of next month. One of our great Generals said "Ride to the sound of the guns". If Deeble is at the banquet, I'll look him up. Wont be hard to find him, "Walk to the smell of the BS", When last I was in Australia, most of the Abo's we saw were shooting 870's.Where does this guy get this stuff? I wish I had saved some of the emails he sent me, when last he was on this rave........A real nutcase
I wish that the discussion would have less passion and that the members of the board would use the internet to review more information.
I know I vowed to bow out, but I think as gun owners, Will, we suffer from not having enough "passion".....at least where it counts. Here's some more information to review: A supposed seventy million 'legal' gun owners in this country, and a mere four million of them shelling out anything to fight for their cause (6 %). Probably even fewer actually contact their elected representatives when the hot button issues come up.
No wonder Deeble exudes confidence in his last post for ramming this issue down our collective throats. Sad, really.
Rob
I did a Google search and turned up this:
ABSTRACT
Necropsy of a 7-yr-resident peregrine falcon (Falco peregrinis) from Baltimore showed a Pseudomonas infection involving the pharynx as the immediate cause of death. Concentrations of lead in liver and kidney measured 0.74 and 1.40 ppm, respectively. A survey of lead exposure was performed on 40 urban rock doves (Columbia livia). Thirteen additional rock doves were collected from sites removed from lead contamination and served as controls. The mean concentration of lead in the blood of the urban rock doves was 0.96 ppm (range 0.29-17.0 ppm) compared to 0.05 ppm (0.01-0.07 ppm) for control birds. Ninety-eight percent (39/40) of the urban rock doves had elevated concentrations of lead in their blood, while 27% (11/40) had sublethal concentrations. None of the control birds had increased concentrations of lead in their blood. Concentrations of lead in liver and kidney of 13 urban rock doves were 3.48 ppm and 9.53 ppm, respectively, compared to concentrations of 0.43 ppm and 0.50 ppm for four control rock doves. From these data a mean total concentration of lead per rock dove was calculated at 4.60 ppm for urban birds and 0.33 ppm for control birds.
http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/2/238If I read it correctly the urban dove had many multiples more lead concentration in their bodies than the rural doves. It would seem to me that Grouse Guy's efforts would have more effect on Peregrine conservation if he talked to the urban gangs about switching from lead bullets to steel or copper. Is there an urban gang BBS?
Or do they do a lot of upland hunting in Baltimore?
Best,
Mike
Mike, that's really interesting, good stuff. Keep up the good work. Daryl
Good stuff indeed. Somebody maybe needs to train those doves not to eat lead paint chips???
Thanks.
And who is to say the lead levels in the rural dove come from them picking up spent bird shot - lots of other sources.
It reminds me of the "lead in the venison" study. The urban people were more lead polluted than the rural vension eaters.
Best,
Mike
Here is something - Peregrine Falcons have been delisted in California:
Friends,
It is with great pleasure that I announce that Gary Alten’s petition to delist the peregrine in CA was unanimously approved today at the Commission meeting. A Fish and Game representative presented the petition. Glenn Stewart, Gary’s Aunt, the Director of the CA rifle and pistol club, and myself, provided testimony. The vote was a heartfelt vote, and the Commissioners requested that the CHC plaque honoring Gary be displayed and projected on the overhead monitors during the vote. I have documented this historic event and will provide a further update later.
Congratulations to all is in order.
Bill FerrierA Falconer posted this.
http://www.rebeccakoconnor.com/operationdesertdove/?p=222Best,
Mike
This is kind of a warm/fuzzy post by a birdwatcher:
Maybe birders, including myself, should think of all birds as being equal. However, I’ve been conditioned to like Peregrine Falcons more than Rock Doves. Humans, including myself, practically drove the Peregrine to extinction with poisons like DDT. Thanks to Rachel Carson, who woke us up with her book Silent Spring, we discovered the danger of poisoning our environment. Sadly, we still haven’t learned to stop poisoning altogether. However, we did
reduce some of the worst threats before the Peregrine, Bald Eagle, White-faced Ibis, and many other species went extinct. Now Peregrine Falcons, along with many other species, are making a comeback. There is a much higher probability that humans can survive if our earth co-inhabitants are healthy. We should all remember why the miners of the past took canaries into the mine with them. http://www.wasatchaudubon.org/ft_rockdove.htmBest,
Mike
As I mentioned before, once these organizations choose a pet species, all other species become irrelevant. At Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, the darling species is the piping plover. These birds are incredibly stupid, nesting on open beach between dunes and tide line. The beach is covered with seagulls to eat the eggs, storms destroy the nests, and the biggest threat of all is competing piping plover pairs that kill any unattended chicks.
The major point of interest on the island, the Cape itself, was closed last year, all summer, because of them. Piping Plovers are not even an endangered species, they are listed as threatened yet the park service has spent untold hundreds of thousands of dollars on an average fledgling hatch of 5 or 6 birds per year on the entire island. Reasonable estimates run as high as one million dollars per chick. The park service trapped over 400 raccoons, opossums, foxes, and other mammals, killed most, and removed some to protect these 5 or 6 fledglings of a species that’s not even endangered.
If you’re wondering why this happened, it was because the The Southern Environmental Law Center, Defenders of Wildlife and the Audubon Society sued the park service saying that people being on the beach hindered the process. The beach was closed not only to fishing, surfing, and driving to fishing locations; it was closed to walking on the beach. The birds had one of the ten most popular beaches in the world to themselves for the entire summer. As you can imagine, the financial damage to the island was considerable.
Many of the folks on the island who had sympathies towards these groups have lost them now, but it was too late. Be very cautious who you support in these days. They may not be your friends.
Can anyone recommend a good low pressure load for peregrine falcons? Lead shot, of course. I hear they taste a lot like spotted owl.
This would be funny if the morons who run our Fish and Wildlife service in Washington hadn't just moved forward on implementing a lead ban for all department lands starting in 2011. This is for small and upland game only, apparently I can still go out and shoot a brick of 22 ammo at my old car batteries. Rob
Fishnfowler,
Where did you get that information? I've heard nothing of it.
Best, Dick
Dick,
Check the Washington Fish and Wildlife web site. They haven't adopted the proposal yet, but the public comment period ended last week. I have been in touch with the NRA, my state legislators, and the F&W and it looks like it is a done deal. Starting in 2010 no lead shot for small/upland game at any pheasant release site, and in 2011 no lead for any department lands. I have some serious shooting to do in the next year to burn up my lead. Rob
Sorry, I wrote a story on the Washington State issue, I misunderstood and thought you meant Washington, DC. I really am usless un the mornings these days.
They are taking it away from us in little peices. Thats why I get so upset when guys who only shoot doubles say they see nothing wrong with outlawing some other kind of gun.
The NRA is far from perfect, but it's the best thing we have. I stay away from any outdoor organization that won't ally with NRA. Duplicity is the name of the game these days.
Best, Dick
I hear they're trying to do someting like that in Wyoming & Montana. Stopping oil & gas leases from developement over some stupid bird. They say a few coal bed methane plants in that worthless BLM land out back of knowhere, just a bunch of sage brush, building a few roads, fences, truck terminal will upset the little birdies spring courtship and nesting. Dumping a bit of salty water in the creek might lose a few fish. Tell me, what's more important, a few dumb birds and fish, or JOBS?
There is plenty of them birds in all the other parts, why pick on the valuable resources? That land is finally worth something and they want to put it aside, save it for birds! How dumb is that? There must be plenty of them where there isn't any gas, don't you think?
And some dumb-ass throw-back food gatherer types are trying to stop sound economic growth in these trying times, stopping natural resource development in the face of $4 a gallon gas, Idiots!
All this over some stupid plains chicken, sage hens, brush grouse or some such.
Can you believe it!??!
Dick, I appreciate your vigilance.
Skip
Skip,
I chcked out your site. really nice. Did you ever read The Unnatural Enemy Vance Bourjaily wrote it I belleve.
Dick
"The Unnatural Enemy" is a very underappreciated "outdoor" book. Vance Bourjaily wrote it, I believe, while he was teaching at the Writers Worshop at the University of Iowa. His son, Phil, is a gun columnist for Field & Stream.
If I remember right his dogs name was Moon. I read it in high school and that's stuck with me all these years.
Come to think if it, that's why it's so important to make sure kids get a positive outdoor experience in their formative years. Simple things can create a dream in a young person and change their life.
There's a serious debate in Canada's industrial, government and public circles about natural resource development, focussing mostly on Alberta's tar sands, acknowledged environmental nightmare but until meltdown Canada's economic engine on which US energy is dependent.
Losing 500 ducks at a crack from alighting in one of those leaching ponds and uneasiness about health effects from what's draining into the great Athabasca and tributaries is being measured seriously against jobs by the oil and gas industry and the public at large.
It seems a consensus is growing in Alberta and throughout the country that this is a good time for stocktaking about sustainability and limits of growth, of what society is prepared to sacrifice to the graven images of cars. Except for empathy for the workers, most people hereabouts would vote for fishes and birds over GM.
Skip,
I chcked out your site. really nice. Did you ever read The Unnatural Enemy Vance Bourjaily wrote it I belleve.
Dick
Dick, there must be something about that book. I have never read it but it has been recommended to me about as much as any other book I can think of. I just ordered a copy from Amazon.
Skip