Here is what I see. A W&S trade gun refinished to a passable standard. I'd say BV2 (for the Beesley name)-OQ2.5 (somewhere between a second and third grade SLE)-CC5 (refinished/restored) = $5,500. The wood finish looks modern, the case colors look modern and the engraving on the bottom is blurred from buffing. The S/N on the barrel loop is Scott/W&S - early to mid 1890's, maybe.
The checkering is very non-English, as well, and the walnut looks suspiciously new, certainly refinished. Pretty but not very authentic. (And I hate fresh colors over worn engraving ...)
The proof marks narrow it down a little farther to between 1896 and 1904. Lagopus.....
If YOU eVER wAnt TO see your BOOKs SenD the gUN
yOur friend
Uh.... What happened to gun number 2?
Yeti, butchering newspapers are we? LOL
The orphaned "Beesley" is in North America and the photos were sent by our
esteemed member Slate.
In my infinite ignorance I already told him I found the colours suspicious.
Thank you all for the feedback. It will prove invaluable to Slate.
JC
Have to disagree with rocketman re the W&S based purely on the F/E loop serial No's . If you look closely you'll see the one on the other side is one number lower ie 39 & 40 these were most probably use nos for the tubes to pay royalty on the Whitworth Wheatsheaf trade mark. I would suggest if its a good Beesley then its worth more than $5500. My 2c
Recolored, probably restocked in America, those holes in the rib could mean the bbls were hotblued.
I would pass. Who know what other problems it has.
OWD
I'll bet that will sell at a gun show for 5,500. Don't think it would be dead weight on the table.
tim
Hi Guys, Well the gun is for sale in Southern Ontario. I had noted a few of the "question mark" condition aspects. You have pointed out additional "issues". I do very much appreciate the knowledge expressed here and the candid critique. Thanks again JayCee for your participation. Slate
I'll bet Thorny would like to wax that one!
Yeti,
I am still rolling on the floor!
Or do some photo opps...proping up a pine tree.
I can hear Lowell's Beesley screaming way over here, "Come on old chap put the Remy away and take me out to hunt and not just for another photo shoot"!!!!
So where is the 'ol Thorn anyways???
A brand new grandson!
Looks like a decent enough gun to me - better SLEs are getting hard to find.
Slate, a call to M.Buller in England may bring more valuable info. 011-44-1494-762370.
Justin
Lowell I bet you like those long barrels on that one.
Lowell
Congratulations on your new grandson!
Steve
Here is what I see. A W&S trade gun refinished to a passable standard. I'd say BV2 (for the Beesley name)-OQ2.5 (somewhere between a second and third grade SLE)-CC5 (refinished/restored) = $5,500. The wood finish looks modern, the case colors look modern and the engraving on the bottom is blurred from buffing. The S/N on the barrel loop is Scott/W&S - early to mid 1890's, maybe.
I've handled the gun on a couple of occasions,..Rocketman is right on the money!
CJ
I don't see this gun as a bought-in gun from Beesley. The production #'s for the year this gun may have been made show 20 guns listed. The next year 14. They may have needed to buy in a gun but I don't see why. Components may have come from Scott.
The #'s on the gun barel do not jive with production #'s for Scott. They're from 16 years earlier.
The legend on the rib misses the date of Beesley occupying that space by 5 years.
I couldn't make out the "From Purdeys" that Beesley engraved on his guns. Is it there?
So what is this gun?
Could be something other than a Scott, but it is a very typical pattern from B'ham, right down to the fern chiseled fences. Mr. Beesley would have made more money buying this gun in and selling it than making it and selling it. I believe he made his Beesley pattern guns in London. Anyone got one of those? Do they have London proofs? Are the proofs on this gun London or B'ham? By the time this gun was made, B'ham makers had figured out how to make this pattern of gun cheaply enough to sell it profitably to the trade, who could resell it more profitably than their own shop's products.
I have no intent to be knocking this gun. But, maker's name aside, it is not a best gun, or even a second best gun. The take-away here is to look past the Brand Value and determine the Original Quality grade of the individual gun. Give the maker's name its Brand Value level due, but don't be blinded by the name.
All the above said, this is still a desirable gun. One would certainly hope so at the $5,500 price I estimated. Had this actually been a Beesley made Beesley pattern gun of OQ1, the estimate would have been $9,000, and had said OQ1 gun been in pristine Current Condition level, BV2-OQ1-CC1 = $30,000.
Nope, I'm not trying to knock anything. I'm trying to show that, above and beyond maker's name's Brand Value, Original Quality grade and Current Condition level have very big influence on how the market values guns.
You know this might be quickly decided if the owner would call Mr.Buller in England,He's got the Beesley order book.
These are London proofs,though that is not definitve proof of where it was made.
By the way,where's the whitworth logo on the barells? They're wheat sheaves or somthing like that.
Even if the gun was made in B'ham,if it was sold by Beesley it is well worth the $5500 if not more.
I agree that it was only refinished to a passable standard because if you look at the pictures closely to many wood to metal gaffs on that Beesley to consider it as original condition gun.
According to Boothroyd, Beesley moved to 2 St James St in 1900. Can't comment on the exact SN, but that certainly fits with the proofmarks, which are without question (because of the MAXIMUM mark) 1896-1904.
Slate, something else to check would be bore diameter/wall thickness. That gun does not show any indication of reproof, which means the bores would have been .729 (or very close) from the maker. If they're .010 greater, that would make them out of proof--although on a British gun that old, one would almost expect some honing/polishing to have taken place. But if they're significantly larger than .729, that might also mean wall thickness is questionable.
Thanks doc, he's my first!
My Beesley is a 1910-15 made gun, and is marked with "Beesley's Patent" on the bottom of the action. It has London proofings.
Prehaps Rocketman could tell us if Hellis guns were brough in from B'ham to be tidied-up eh?
Congratulations Lowell! That's great news. Got some pics?
I thought this Beesley thread would bring you back out! ;-)
Good close ups would be nice....maybe even one with a dead crow.
Looks like a Beesley Best to me. The "fern" chiseled fences, although used on some early Beesley Pat. Purdeys and others, was a Beesley signature for most of his production. The stocks ,however are new to the gun. The wood, comb, checkering, and what I can see of the general shaping are not quite "British". The numbers on the loop are Whitworth tube #s as has been speculated before. Theese #s are on most Whitworth barrels weather chopper lump, or dovetailed from about 1880. The "sheaf of wheat" logo does not appear on many whitworth bbls. The tube #s will be on all except for very early ones. It's too bad the work was not done a bit better, but it looks as if this gun could be saved with a good re-do of the stock etc. as long as the bbls are good.
All the best, Mal
Mal, is there any dating possible with the barrel tube numbers?
This is certainly not a Beesley (Purdey) patent action gun. I'm not positive what the lock pin placement tells us other than that it is not a Beesley or Royal action, and, I don't think a Grant or a Woodward action. I contend that the "fern chisled fences" are common on many brands of guns. Does anyone disagree with that?
I'm also under the impression that Mr. Beesley saved his best work for the Beesley patent self-opening action. I'll continue the research further.
Nice discussion!!
Rocketman,...here is another for you,..notice the similar lock pin placement,...this one is cheaper than the one in question an probably in better shape.... JMHO
CJ
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores...mp;mode=viewGunThey also have a nice pair for 38K
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores...mp;mode=viewGun
Foliate yes, fern(palm frond)no!
Look at Boothroyd for a Beesley best.
To my knowledge, the Beesley/Purdey action was never used on a Beesley gun.
Don says it's a knockoff. Mal says it's a Beesley best. Lowell says Beesley never put his name on a Beesley patent self opener. Someone else says he owns a Beesley that has "Beesley Patent" engraved on it. Oh, that was Lowell. I know which one of the three I trust the most, but what is the real story and how do we tell?
Prop them all against a pine tree and get pictures.
Mr. Beesley sold his spring cocking patent to Mr. Purdey in 1880. He would have had to pay a users fee to Mr. Purdey to use his own action if he were to make a Purdey type gun.[I have seen only 1 Beesley marked gun with a Purdey type action.] He also patented a few other spring cockers like the Lancaster "wrist breaker". The Beesley's patent on the gun in question I believe refers to his ejector, otherwise known as the Southgate, or, if a Holland, the AB.[ two moving parts,not counting the spring, the hammer going overcenter]. I have seen a number of guns with the "fern fences" by makers other than Purdey or Beesley, some on backaction guns from Birmingham. I just noted that most, if not all, Beesley best guns had them. Although known as "the inventor to the trade" Mr Beesley made relatively few guns; I think his serial #s started at 1000.[ Don't have references here]. He was a perfectionist, and his creations rank among the finest.
All the best, Mal
Mal, I think what you're saying is that people who think a Beesley is a $30,000 gun, thinking it is identical to a Beesley style Purdey, may be deluding themselves. But you are also saying that a good Beesley, although not neccesarily a "Beesley style Purdey action" is a good gun. Now how do we tell whether a Beesley is really a Beesley? By the way, you were the "one" I was referring to.
Looks like my idea is not going to work.
Cj I think the 27" cylinder choke barrels really hurt this gun.
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores...mp;mode=viewGun
Perhaps for some unknown reason(hehehe), eightbore is adding his own little spin to this piece.
I agree with C.J.O. that the position of the pins in the lock plates are a strong indication that the action of the gun is by Beesley. Boothroyds book,Sidelocks and Boxlocks, page 55 picture a "Best Beesley sidelock' with identical action.
I'm sure that Mr Beesley, being a very accomplished gunmaker and inventor, had his own design of lockwork made up for him by the Wolverhampton lockmakers. By examining a number of guns we might find a Beesley style of lock.
Most of Beesleys production was best quality. I don't recall seeing a second or third quality by him.
Rocketman, sorry to have overlooked your question. Generally,I have noted higher Whitworth tube numbers on later guns, however, a gunmaker may have tubes dating from the 1880's in stock and not use them until the 1930's; I believe they started numbering the tubes with the introduction of chopper lumps as a way of keeping pairs together. This would account for the absence of numbers on early dovetailed Whitworth barrels.
All the best, Mal
Thanks, Mal. I'm going to get more information on this Beesley issue. I understood that he used his own patent for his best guns. That may well have been bad information. I'll "collect" some "fern" chisled fence guns and see what we find.
In a catalog issued sometime after 1912, Beesley offers four qualities of sidexside guns. Two are boxlocks, and a third is their "Special Quality" sidelock for 75bps. Their "Standard" is their highest quality sidelock at 120bps.
The Bass Pro Beesley does not have the "normal" Beesely fences , but has the fences commonly found on Army Navy, Monk, and many others that had guns made for them by Webley Scott, Hollis Bentley and Playfair etc. Those fences are pictured in the catalogs of both Birmingham makers. From what I can see, the fences pictured on page one of this thread do not match the cataloged best fences, either. The pin placement in the sideplates of the Cataloged Beesley Patent best , do not match either gun pictured with this thread.
Thank you ever so much, DH. Very good information. I spoke with Dig Hadoke about this issue last night. He is of the opinion that this gun was a made as a best. I defer to superiour knowledge and accept that it is OQ1. That said, we would have a BV2-OQ1-CC5 = $9000 if my first estimate of CC5 is correct. That price does not match up with Dig's and CJ0's (remember, CJO had the gun in hand) estimate. So, to match my original estimate, we would have to have BV2-OQ1-CC6.6 = $5,500. From the photos, Dig estimated $7,000 = BV2-OQ1-CC5.8. Note that it is always OK to reverse engineer the price chart from an estimate or price to see what factors the estimate yields and consider whether those factors pass the horse sense test. Thanks one and all for the input. Jay Cee, that is about all I can do from descriptions and photos.
$5500! $7000! Come on, get real.
That gun has been poorly recolored, poorly restocked, hotblued, and the engraving looks buffed.
And that's just what we can tell from the pics.
We do not know if it is proof or its bbl wall thicknesses.
Judging from the quality of work done on it already, I bet it has other issues, too.
I wouldn't spend a dime on it.
OWD
The proof issue would be easy to settle: Measure the chambers and the bores. If the chambers have not been lengthened and the bore diameter is less than .740, it's in proof. Wall thickness doesn't render a gun out of proof, although anything under .020 on a 2 1/2" gun would certainly merit caution on the part of the buyer.
OWD they are doing exactly what has been preached and preached on here...
Don't price a gun on name alone.
That OWD, is called playing the best gun buying game - you either have the means for a top-conditioned gun or not!
...and if not, you have to go down a notch or two in your expectations.
Now to put this into proper order, those Lefevers and LCs you want, if in the same condition as that Beesley that puts you off so much would cost you $800-1500.
Different rules are in play.
although Rocketman's gun value formulas are fascinating. This gun is a dog that no math can save,just like the LCs and such that go for such `short money. junk is junk.
strangely i have seen different beesley at david condons place with 27" tubes and ic/ic barrels. my assumption was tubes were "circumcised", but i didn't look at it closely because i have zero english in me and don't really care for what they made or make. romans had an empire when english were in muuuud huts and italians are better craftsmen anyway.
What j0e said, he has experienced the Purdey/Whodunit gun first hand.
PJ, when hard times come, those Italian guns will be only good for shootin' stray dogs in your backyard.
For hard assets, only English and top-flight American guns will be wanted.
Guys, I have never once said my formula is the price of the gun. I say it is a startiing point to ponder. It will get you into the ball park if the gun is what it looks like or is as described. A skilled photographer can make a gun look better than it is, a skilled wordsmith can make a gun sound better than it is, and dimlights/wax/oil/an uncleaned arrel/ etc. can cover up gun flaws. At least I'm willing to try to get you into the ball park.
Lowell I sold that whodunit gun for $8500 and wish I had'n'dunit..
How much will your cOw'boyd Beesley fetch ?
[img]
[/img]
Lowell is your Beesley shrink'n ?
good, i'm waiting to pounce at that minty 50s vintage Luigi Franchi SLE at local shop. soom, very soon i hope.
it's very valuable gun and quality wise in same bracket as hank atkin and churchill.
there is this one company that makes exceptional o/u gun i wouldn't mind owning
the guy to contact is Michael.Louca@WatsonBrosGunmakers.comlook, i hate to give english credit for anything as they walk this earth much toooo proudly, but this outfit is very good.....one of these days i may order a gun from them. just four guys making great products i hope they survive these harsh economic times.best wishes to them.
Hey my buddy took him on a turkey/racoun hunt...
