I had an unfair experience with a dealer.
I have bought guns that had problems that were not mentioned in the description. I took it as if it was my fault. I did not ask all appropriate questions.
THis time I was lied right in the face. Even when asked all questions of interest for me I was hidden the truth. The gun was misrepresented. It was returned, but it cost me the shipping and the hassle.
I don't make a fuss about misleading as it seems the rule of the day, but this time I paid for it and feel that it is my right and duty to report about this incident.
I don't know how one would protect himself from such a situation.

If you are interested to know who the dealer is, e-mail me at
mudcreeks@yahoo.com

Now days it seems the "new generation" has attitude issues....they think that just because they DON'T mention flaws, descrepencies, it is not their responsibility once a sale takes place, you are supposed to look at minute photo's (100 yard type photo's in poor light) and assess the condition of a piece........I am speaking of internet sales, not face to face of course......the seller's know of the issues with a particular gun, just choose not to mention them.......the only response is to deal with dealers who have multitudes of honest feedback......any barrel has bad apples and some barrels are all rotten.......lot's of folks have never seen the inside of a church and don't believe in a higher authority..!!

email sent

This thread is a copout. If I ever have a serious problem with a vendor, I will not ask someone to email me to find out who he is. I will name him in my initial post for all to see. Don't expect an email from me. I expect you to stand up like a man and accuse the dealer, by name, of bad faith dealing on this thread. Don't give me the "he could take legal action against me" business. If you just state facts, he has no recourse.

Eightbore,

You are right. But even then you wouldn't know who lied, me or him. So that does not serve you any good.
I thought for days if I should post this or not just for the fact that discussing what happened is useless.
THis is only my experience and my opinion about what happened.
I might be wrong and I accept that there could have been dealings going right with this particular dealer.

Take it for whatever it's worth.

Plus one on eightbore's rant. If you are just useing this forum to get an advantage over the dealer in order to get a shipping refund, you're not doing the right thing. If there is a crook dealer out there (imagine that) then share the name...Geo

It is true that this is just one deal and may not be indicative of how the dealer usually operates but it is the one you had with him. You should describe factually what happened and let us decide. Personally, I would believe you and I doubt you are wrong. If another thread on this guy came up then I would never do any business with him. I imagine if you bring his name to our attention there might be others here who have had similar or opposite experiences and we would all benefit. Even the dealer would realize eventually that his reputation is based on his last deal in many cases and may shape up.

If you are not sure of what the situation is, you shouldn't be sharing your experience by email either. A dealer sent me a gun that was not quite right. I contacted him to return it because (as I told him) I did not feel it was ethical to negotiate price with the gun in my hand. He asked what kind of negotiation I would consider had I thought it ethical. I said about a $175 negotiation would be about what I would pursue. He said he would send me a check and appreciated my candor. So, he sent me a bad gun and we reached an agreement. Had we not reached an agreement and he refused to take the gun back, I would feel comfortable discussing the transaction on the internet, naming him in the process. So should you, now that you have mentioned the general negative aspects of the transaction.

I agree with eightbore and George. I just received a gun purchased from a dealer on gunbroker. Asked my questions, made my decision and bought the gun. When the US post office delivered the gun the stock was broken in shipment (a Fox SW 12 ga). I would like to keep the gun as it is very nicely restored, so the seller and I talked it over, he agreed to pay the extra dollars for the stock to be replaced, but this will be a several months fix as it will take 2 months for the PO to cough up the insurance money. My point is if the seller had not done the right/honest thing I would post the facts and his name on every site I could find so some other guy would not get burned.

Mike

Mike--I've read your story several times. What did the dealer do wrong? The stock was broken in transit. If I were that dealer, I'd refund your money in full and deal with the insurance issues and restock the gun. You wanted the gun, even with the broken stock. I'd say the dealer went FAR beyond what would be expected by fronting the money, but in any case--had he chosen to just take the gun back and refund you in full, why would you want to criticize him all over the web/ Am I missing something!

OK,

This is the gun and the dealer:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/940706614/Gun...2X12X_7X57R.htm
I talked with him on the phone and he went over the gun with me asking the questions. The scope was described as perfectly functional. In fact, the mounts would not hold the scope on the gun. The scope had the elevation tourette move on the shaft, the adjustment knobs were stuck. The ocular is moving. The gun had the rifle barrel relined. One of the triggers, while working, had a very hard pull and a lot of creep.
After letting him know that the gun and scope were not what he described he did not return my phone calls, neither did he answered my e-mails. I delt with his secretary in order to return the gun. He refunded the cost of the gun but not the shipping. I feel that I had to pay shipping and insurance for his misleading description, which, in my opinion should have been his expense. It is not a matter of money, but a matter of respect and honor.
I have bought guns in poor condition from other sellers, but they were described as they were and I did not feel taken advantage of.
I have found problems with guns that I bought that were not discussed before the transaction, but other dealers stood behind their word, even if I forgot to ask the right questions or they forgot to fully describe it.
The intention of the topic is to bring awareness on this dealer. It might be malitious and unfair to some, but this is my side of the story. You make whatever you want out of it.
Serban Ionescu

The on-line Ebay seller rating system works well. If I see someone with a rating below about 98%, I stay away. Did the site you bought the gun from have a rating system? Too bad we don't have ratings posted outside storefronts on Main Street.

Bill: It's less than a "cop-out"--It's a big nothing, nada, zero, zilch; nothing but an anonymous poster hiding his identity while making unspecified accusations of generalized dissatisfaction with an unnamed "dealer." Oh! poo!

As I read it he took a look at a mail-order gun, didn't like it, returned the gun according to some "look-see" arrangement, got his money back, and paid postage (to avoid having to actually leave his home to go shopping). Oh! double-poo! EDM

The rifle barrel being "relined" should have been mentioned in the advertisement...that alone should warrant a "total refund"....maybe even some "pain and suffering".

I recall a thread just last year about a high dollar Purdey SxS that had "hidden sleeved barrels" that the same seller had listed as original....

I wonder if that poster got his shipping refunded ?

Serban is a real guy, I sold him a gun and he was a pleasure to deal with. I have dealt with Steve before with good results too.
Steve

EDM try reading the thread before you rant...

As the rifle bbl in a drilling are generally built to a minimum contour I would for sure be leery of one of the intensity of a 7x57R having been "Relined". That alone would take this gun out of the "Like New" condition he listed. Even if he had honestly not noticed it, he should have refunded shipping Both Ways, after that was brought to his attention. My Opinion

I think it would also be very worthwhile to mention names when a seller does the right thing, when a deal "starts to go wrong." If the dealer gives a prompt refund, or pays to have the broken stock repaired, etc. his name should be mentioned.

As an example, I bought a new turkish SxS at Cabela's earlier this year. It "doubled", firing both barrels with a single trigger pull. They promptly provided a full refund, with no hassle -- and are to be commended. By the way, they also offered to have it repaired, if I wanted to keep it.

Lets give credit where it is due...

JERRY

So, the plot thickens. Here we have a pre-war (70-years-old or older) 12-bore Sauer shotgun with rifle barrel attached, and scope detached, priced at $5,500. One might question what element of the $5,500 price a 4X scope contributes to a relatively expensive collector's item of a shotgun/rifle combo with iron sights? Or what is the chance of buying a similar shotgun/rifle combo at any price anywhere else? Or whether or not a relined rifle barrel on a 70+ year-old shotgun is a plus or minus in the eyes of different beholders? Or whether the subjective issue of trigger pull ("...hard pull, creep...") isn't something that different persons might evaluate differently?

I have only met Steve Barnett in passing at such places as the Vintage Cup, and someday, if and when I get to Mississippi, I'd like to see his shop, which from his ads looks like a place to spend a whole day. Steve is a major Parker dealer and to the extent that I have seen his guns displayed and handled a few, he is a top notch dealer with things of value to sell. But this is the Internet, where everybody gets their say, even Silver, who paraphrased says:

"It might be malicious and unfair to some...[for me]...to bring awareness on this dealer...[as I]...have bought guns in poor condition from other sellers...[and]...this is my side of the story."

So here is the solution to this sort of difference of opinion in the future: TO SAVE POSTAGE, get in your car and drive from Montana to Mississippi (or wherever) to look at an antique $5,500 shotgun/rifle combo next time. You can fiddle with the trigger and see if the removable scope suits you; if the cost to the prior owner to "reline" the rifle barrel did not add value to your way of thinking, then walk away...all that's lost is, maybe, 2,500- to 3,000-miles on your vehicle and 4 or 5 days of your time. Or maybe paying postage to look at someone else's $5,500 antique gun and having the stay-at-home option to say "yes, I'll keep it," or "No, I'd like my money back," ain't such a bad deal after all.

My understanding is that dealers like Steve Barnett with actual stores and national reputations always give a right to return for reason or no reason whatsoever. Silver got his money back. The idea that dealers are to pay a potential buyer's postage, which is incurred solely because the buyer chooses not to shop in person at the seller's store, is just plain silly. And the idea that the detachable scope (not even pictured in the auction listing) translates into a gun "...in poor condition" Oh! Poo!

And having since read the listing and the complaints (no doubt added belatedly due to Eightbore's jab), the complainer is still just "Silver" who tried to buy a $5,500 antique gun over the Internet, wasn't pleased, sent it back and got a full refund of the purchase price. Ordinarily this is the happy end to the mail-order look-see story.

Query: Had "Silver" driven to a seller's store, would he have demanded his mileage and a per-diem for his time and meals?

Thats pure rubbish EDM. Rubbish. If a potential buyer ask all the right questions (example...Is the gun 100% original? Has the gun been sleeved? Is there any pitting in the barrels? etc.) and buys the gun off of what that dealers answers were and the gun shows up not as described...then that dealer is a LIAR and a CHEAT. Regardless of his refund policies. Nobody likes having there time wasted and money spent when it need not be.

I've sent two guns back to Steve for the same reasons Serban did. NOT AS FREEKIN DESCRIBED. I will not make that mistake again. I can care less what his "national reputation" is to other people, I care about how I was dealed with. He sold me a Fox that he said we restored by Turnbull, I said are you sure, he said YES, 100% positive. I called Turnbull, gave them the serial number and guess what.....They never had that gun in their shop. HUH. Would you not say that is a lie???? The second gun went back because again, I asked if the barrels had ANY pitting in them, his answer was "NO", "they are bright and shiny, like new"....when I picked up the gun, took a look down the barrels, you guessed it..pits running damn near the full length of the tubes...I put the thing back in box and sent it back, that was strike three. Never again.

Serban is one of the good guys, a real stand up fella who feels he got lied to by a "respectable" dealer, and from what I can tell by his story....I believe him and he was right to call him out and warn others.

And the thing about driving to each and every sellers store to check out the merchandise before you buy, GET REAL dude. Is that what you do??? Just not a real practical thing to do for most people, especially people who buy alot of guns throughout the year. Ridiculous, seriously.

Dustin

To EDM and others who think the problem described by Silver is unusual or just sour grapes. Yes, Steve Barnett Fine Guns has a fine reputation. BUT...the price paid is not insignificant and the story is a way of life for many dealers. So here's another story about this same dealer...all can come to their own conclusions.

About 1 1/2yrs ago I ordered a Beretta ASE90 for a client from Barnett Fine Guns based on the description provided on the company web site and phone conversations. The price was similar to Silver's at $5,500. The ASE90 was described as LIGHTLY used, the factory original second trigger group as brand new in the wrapper (never used), and no problems what so ever with the mechanics or cosmetics of the gun. Here is what I received.

This ASE90 was shot so heavily that the hammers showed indentations from the firing pins. Both of the trigger groups were heavily worn (not even close to new or lightly used). The side ribs (both sides as I recall) had separated from the barrels at the breach end and flopped around making a nice dull "thudding" sound with the barrels and forend removed.

Now, does anyone here think this is a reasonable description of a ANIB gun? Do you think Mr. Barnett and his sales manager should have noted the problems in both written description and verbal Q&A? I do.

Bottom line: I phoned to return the gun immediately, as it took only a few minutes to note the problems. Barnett Fine Guns approved the return over the phone without explanation.

Now for Act II: Even after all my efforts at prompt communication and my client paying the out of pocket expenses for shipping to and from Mr. Barnett's place of business....IT TOOK TWO MONTHS TO RECEIVE THE 5K REFUND!!!!

Frankly, credible is a credible does, and this is another instance where reputation and ethical conduct do not match up very well...no excuse for any dealer to live off of someone else's money having provided nothing of value in return.

Now for Act III: the gun reappeared on Barnett's web site immediately on return (months before refund), and the description had not changed by one word...it was still a ANIB ASE90 as far as the dealer was concerned even though all problems were noted and could be seen by a blind man.

Frankly, if others wish to do business with this company and those ethics, that's there affair, but I will not be doing business with him again in this lifetime.

EDM
Sliver asked the seller specific questions about the gun only to learn that the guns actual condition did not support the verbal answers he was given over the phone, in other words he was lied to about various aspects of the guns condition. I don't care to be lied to and I support his position.
Oh poo to you sir!
Steve

EDM
If a "knowledgable dealer" does not see a rifle barrel that has been relined and a scope that is buggered up with mounts that are a mess should you hold him accountable? I can see cutting some fellow who does not know guns from butter missing the items described but not a dealer who knows his butt form a whole in the ground. The dealer, "in the trade", needs to look at what they are selling and be honest in answering questions that are asked. We are not talking about a fifty dollar item here.

Fix what needs to be fixed, or state what are the problems in the listing. Easy to do. Tell the truth when asked. Again, easy to do. When you make a mistake and cause someone to waste time and money in shipping a gun two ways refund the shipping if it is your fault. Not asking him to do this for a gun returned simply because the buyer changed his mind. Seller screwed up by either not answering the questions honestly or by not spotting basic things that we all suspect he could spot very easily if he tried. You would not put up with this from a car dealer. Why should you do it from a gun dealer?

The above posts at least to me are a catalogue of reasons why anyone should think once,twice or three times before buying a gun from a dealer or anyone unknown to them for that matter on the Internet. It would be in everyones interest for the owner of this site to pin this thread to serve as a future warning. In the few instances I've bought a firearm on line I've been singularly unimpressed or outright disappointed with what I've received so I've quit buying this way.
Jim

EDM,

To answer your questions.
I buy guns because they are beautiful. I also buy guns to shoot them. I think the combination of beauty and function is unsurpassed in certain guns.
I bought the gun as a package, the gun with the scope. If the scope is not functional it serves nothing of what it is supposed to do. To have a new scope fitted to the fast release mounts is not quite cheap. I think Champlin Arms quotes somewhere in the $800 and up for the job. I even ordered rifle ammo to try the accuracy of the rifle barrel, but did not try it as it was clear from the start that it wouldn't work.
As of traveling to see the gun, that would be ideal but impractical for obvious reasons. As I said, it is not that I had to pay shipping, that's a small detail.
I asked once a DG Forum listed dealer to e-mail me pictures of a gun he has on his site and he said that if I am ready to buy a 5K gun I should be ready to pay shipping both ways if I did not like it, because he wasn't the kind that works with pictures. If we are to do this with all guns that we see listed, we would end up spending a lot more before we'd like what is sent to us. Obviously, I did not deal with him. If I happen to be in his store one day I would certainly enjoy looking at his guns. Sending pictures is standard procedure these days and it would only help selling an item as long as there is nothing to hide. I think that the internet is a great tool to buy and sell as long as we can count on each other's honesty and common sense.

To me, the definition of a functional scope is one that can be mounted solidly on a gun and be adjusted for POI in a repetitive way. I am certain that my definition is not far from yours. My mistake was that I took this for granted and did not ask Mr. Barnett about his own definition of a functional scope.

I would never think to expect a refund of my shipping cost to return the gun. Misrepresention, bad photos or whatever, you take your chances on an internet gun sale. If the seller promptly refunds what you paid him, I'd be satisfied. If I simply changed my mind (like if my beloved found me out and insisted)and I undertook to return the gun, I'd expect to pay shipping both ways...Geo

Bill Davis, I was not criticizing the dealer, but, he has not fronted any money, I did that when I paid him in full for the gun. His offer of a full refund was only after the receipt of the insurance proceeds, not upon my return of the gun. The dealer has been extremely helpful in resolving this, but, it is not fully resolved and will not be until the PO pays the full insurance claim and the gun is restocked to my satisfaction. I fully expect this to happen but until it does I'm out my money, time and effort.

Mike

Geo,

You are right. I asked for the shipping cost refund only once. I received no response. I did not find it worth spending any more of my time arguing.
I started the topic because I felt offended being lied straight out and I felt it was worth putting it out so that others would know of my experience.
With that said, one can read whatever one thinks out of my topic. I will put it to rest, now.

TWO THREADS ON HERE TELL OF THE SAME EXPERIENCE WITH BARNETT AND HIS "FINE" GUNS......THAT SHOULD SAY IT "ALL".....THE GUY LIES, PERIOD....HE WOULD PROBABLY DO THE SAME IN HIS STORE.....

The only dealer I've bought a gun from that refunded shipping costs was Monty Whitley....after he recieved the gun back he agreed with what I said about it.

He didn't accuse me of anything like some dealers will do and he promptly refunded all my costs.

I seem to remember that one. I think that hombre got his money back, but after it's return I seem to recall there was no change in gun description when it was put back in sale rack.

Gents, I just became aware of this thread started by SLIVER.

I am SILVERS and I also post here often.

Some of you are interchanging the two webnames. Please be aware there are two of us here with very similar names but we are different people. Thanks. Frank Silvers

I have had two dealers that I believe were dishonest. One about ten years ago and the other 3-4 years ago. I would not been bashful about their names. One is out of business and the other
seems to finally have stopped advertising on Auction Arms.
I think the name is important to help others miss the aggravations.

The outright lies to Sliver's direct questions would be unacceptable to me. Sure he got his money back, but he is still out shipping and insurance because of intentional lies. It won't happen of course, but he should actually be entitled to a refund for ALL costs.
Just my honest opinion.
Curtis

I have bought more guns over the internet than I should have. Many were on auction site but a few were from dealers. Most were about what I expected. A few were far from the described gun. About half of them were better than described. If I was unhappy I sent them back if the problem was too great.

Some problems are worse than others. Like the Sterlingworth with which shrunk from the expected 12 to a better than expected 16 in shipping. When I called the seller he said he did not know it was a 16 but that was my tough luck. He had an "iron tight" no return policy. I did not bother to tell him that I figured the gun was worth more in a 16 gauge. Let him figure he screwed me, I kept the gun.

If I called a dealer and asked specific questions I expect honest answers. Should a dealer deliberately lie I consider it fraud by deception.

My policy is that when I sell a gun, I sell it based on the described condition. I do my best to accurately describe the gun in detail. I encourage potential buyers to call me and ask me all the questions they want while I have the gun in my hands. I will do wall thickness measurements , whatever on the phone iwth them. I will weigh triggers etc. I will do all I can to give them the best idea of what the gun is because photos dont always do justice.

If the cusotmer agrees to buy it I give them 3 day return privilege, no questions asked; with one caveat: if they want to return it because they justy dont like it, doesnt fit them , whatever then they pay return shiping and I do not refund their initial shipping either. IF during their conversation about returning it, they indicate that there is something afoul that I missed, then I take it back and if i find the issue they stated I will refund their initial shipping.

I had a customer buy a Fox 16 through online auction from me. He asked loads of questions, I answered all of them. He bid and won the gun. He called me after getting the gun and said he didnt want it. I asked why because I want to know if I missed something. He said he didnt like the feel of the grip! I told him the grip was thicker than normal since it was restocked and indicated in the auction. He then said it didnt have an automatic safety. the push rod had been removed when it was restocked , I never thought to even look at that and he never asked. I asked if it was as described. He said yes it was just like I said it was both on the phone an din the auction description. I give 3 day inspection. I told him to send it back. It doesnt pay to try and tell the guy he owns it because its just as he asked and just as described. I refunded his money less the initial shipping. He turned around and went through his credit card company and filed a claim for the shipping charges that I didnt refund. I contested it and sent all of the documentation including the auction which showed the terms and conditions of sale and the terms and conditions of the Auction site. Needless to say I got charged back the amount of the initial shipping and ins.

I think I treated him very fairly and gave him a full refund on the price of the gun. of course the whole thing took longer that the relist policy of the auction site so I was also out the commission the site charged.

We all make honest mistakes on ocassion. I have found that for the one or two guns returned over the past 15 years that it is far cheaper to just take it back and give the money back regardless of what they say than to risk a reputation built over the years.

I could tell a story of a gun that was damaged in shipment and I didnt want it because it was damaged. I couldnt get a refund because "he didnt have the money". Then while we were trying to hash it out, he bought three guns on Gunbroker in the next month for more than the cost of the gun I bought. So much for not having the money to refund.

I have dealt with Steve Barnett in the past and have always had excellent experiences. I would buy from him again.

I would prefer not to get involved or give any input to this post, if you gentlemen don't mind. But, I WOULD like to file this away under "HORROR STORIES" as a reminder to myself that I am glad I NEVER buy guns over the internet and never will buy one without without seeing it first hand. So, thank you all for all the useful information. Now if you don't mind, I'd like to go and pat myself on the back for my accomplishments. Good day!!

Jon:
I have bought and sold many guns on GunBroker without any problems. I have had more issues in the packing method, than in the gun or discription of same........if a gun is listed with crummy photos, no close ups, dark rooms and limited ten word discriptions, I let someone else take the chance..no matter what the gun or value.

Received a bolt Anschutz once with the bolt sticking out of the box...exciting, eh.

Most sellers with good feedback and a history on the site, are honest.

PA24
Some people are idiots when it comes to shipping. I bought a PW hydraulic unit for a shooting buddy and the seller shipped it without draining the fluid out of it. A pint plus of oil sure makes a mess. Seller said it was UPS's fault as he drew arrows pointing to the top side and they should not have laid the box of its side or top. Lucky they delivered the box at all.

One seller shipped a gun to me in a box without any placing packing material of any type at all and wrote on the box do not bend, fold or mutilate. Gun was a project gun and arrived in about the same shape it was shipped in by shear dumb luck.

One of the best shippers is Brian of Afghanistan. Well packed and great dealer to work with.

Jon:
ya, that's like shipping a "loaded" gun.....real smart...of course, it wasn't their fault...ha !!

KY Jon,
Thanks for the endorsement. Unfortunately my shop is closed until I get back.

As far as shipping goes, having boxes made to my specs is not very expensive. I get them for long guns and for double guns and they come with sleeves and everything. Makes my job a whole lot easier and protects the gun.

My shipping peeves are mostly with guys who ship double guns not knocked down. that long 2 pc stock type gun assembly is always more prone to damage when shipped assembled. I tell them that if they ship in a long gun case to break it down.

I had a well know dealer ship me a German double rifle in a cheap plastic case inside a huge box with no other cushion. He shipped the gun assembled. It arrived with the stock broken through the wrist.

I think folks know Srebro is Slavic while Silver is.... Jewish?

Me thinks, in the future, I will ask first, if seller will pay shipping, if his assessment of the guns condition is "Grossly" flawed, and if he won't, then I'll take my business elsewhere. I have bought many guns online with some nice surprises and some not so nice, but the good ones far outweigh the bad ones, and I definitely won't stop. The good far outweighs the bad, and I have been able to correct all problems that I have encountered. The truth is though, if I had been told the truth to begin with, I might not have gone with the deal...I am not inclined to send guns back, ever, but this thinking has cost me a lot of work and time. I think gun dealers have a natural tendency to try to get over on the GDP, [generally dumb public], and they can't help themselves...kind of like used car salesmen.

There's one dealer that is good member on this forum, that I bought a English Hammer Double from, before I became a member here, that told me the gun had a good solid stock with no cracks. When I got it in, it had a recessed hole, with a wood screw, just behind the tang, going from top to bottom of the POW grip, that actually held the break together, because there was no glue of any kind in the crack, and without the screw, the stock would have been in 2 pieces. I also looked at all the pics of it on his web site, and surprise, surprise, not one showed that portion of the stock. In summary, after much work, it is now one of my favorites, and I am so glad I didn't send it back, but it is something I should have been told about. I consider suppression of known flaws is outright lying, regardless of his lie of telling me the stock was solid with no cracks.

I am very happy with the gun now, and consider it his loss...it came out beautiful, and I basically enjoyed the time I spent on the restoration.

binko

Dear Serban,

My experience is that the standard is 3 day inspection and return for the purchase price minus shipping.

Phil

I understand the standard, Phil, but that precludes an outright lie. If the flaw is plainly visible and hidden from the buyer by the seller, than I don't think the buyer should pay for the return. The only reason the gun got shipped, to begin with, is the sellers deceitfulness, so he should pay the cost of ALL shipping.

binko

Amen...

Well, I think we've discussed this before, but the long and short of it is you won't be getting a refund on shipping. It's the price you pay for doing business long distance. Morally, he does owe you a refund, and maybe you could sue him for a refund and win it, but it's not worth the outlay.

But, look at it this way - assuming the facts you have stated are true, he's exposed himself to you as a liar and worse even a person with lousy gun knowledge. So you are out a hundred bucks - he's out his dignity. I'd rather be in your shoes than his.

I think there's probably something to this whole Karma thing - maybe someday he'll be rolled into the OR in desperate need of kidney transplant. The delivery driver bringing the kidney will be so caught up in an angry phone call with the dealer's secretary trying to get a refund for a lied-about gun that he'll
accidentally leave the kidney on the dash of his minivan.....

EDM.....his user name is sliver!
I think Mr. Barnett wouldn't have a business in Mississippi if it wasn't for on line sales. So being truthful with good pictures is to his advantage. Obviously he chose not to be!

There appears to be at least 7 folks who had good transactions with Stevie. Just look under 16ga guns at 16ga.com.

Steve is as easy to deal with as any dealer you will find. If there's ever a problem with a gun etc. Steve would be the first to make right.
I've bought many guns from Mr. Barnett over the years and he's been nothing short of a true professional.

I've stayed out of this because I generally don't post an opinion on something that's so prone to individual intrepretation where I don't have some first hand knowledge. However I think it's fair to ask the following:

How do you,or anyone reading this thread, reconcile the apparent wide variance in this sellers description of the gun that started this thread with the sellers reputation as a "True Professional"?
Jim

Sorry, italiansxs, anyone spending five grand or more for such a gun should know a redone, hard used gun when he sees a picture of one. No intelligent purchaser of a drilling in that price range should have even given that gun a second look. We are in a business similar to old cars. We should know what we are buying. Anyone who asks me for advice on buying a gun will get good advice. The buyer should have asked for advice. This experience probably cost him a hundred bucks in shipping. It could have cost him $5500 plus shipping and the time it takes to get rid of a bad gun. I think he got away easy and should be thankful. There are thousands of guns for sale out there that are not bargains. We are supposed to know which ones they are.

If I'm understanding this, he DID ask about flaws and was lied to. Or am I missing something?

No Greg, your not missing anything. You as a matter o' fact are getting what eightbore is obviously missing here, the "point".

Eightbore ASSumes that because Serban got lied to...it was Serbans fault the gun turned out to be a turd, regardless of how many "right" questions Serban asked, and how many times the seller lied in return. Pictures dont tell the whole story, you cant go off pictures alone, thats why we ask the "right" questions.....if a customer gets lied to....How is that customers fault???? I guess we have to ASSume that Eightbore got the "memmo" and is wayyyyy smarter than everyone else here.

When I related my experience with the ASE90 from Barnett, does anyone really think that the web pictures would have allowed me to see it was worn out, especially if no pictures showing problems areas were available for viewing?

If a buyer is splitting hairs about a 10% finish issue then I side with the dealer. But to avoid problems, especially serious problems with a gun's condition and mechanics, we all must rely on the ethics of the seller to give honest answers to questions asked. There should be no surprises when the gun is finally in hand...period.

To our good fortune, about a week after returning SB's broken down "new" ASE90, a private seller from Texas listed another as New In The Box. Well guess what...IT REALLY WAS NEW!!! and exactly as advertised. Plus it was $500 less than Barnett's junker

There are plenty of honest people out there, and there's just no excuse for a false sales pitch or fraudulent dealing, especially if a dealer has a reputation to protect. When a dealer takes short cuts and provides bad information (and service) he's doing more harm than good. And when a dealer (in this case SB) puts the same ASE90 back up for sale a second time with no mention of the problems he's been made aware of, it says volumes about his character. To paraphrase a wise old man... fool me once, shame on me...fool me twice...ain't gonna happen because there will be no second chance.

Those 7 you mention, probably never had to send a falsified gun back and wait a couple months ++ for their money....so they were happy campers......or they just like flaws and surprises....??

Oh! I guess I'm beginning to understand this gun dealing business. I really like this 2004 Ferrari 360 Modena Spyder and it looks like a smokin deal:

Look at this beauty:


Hmmm: Maybe I should ask for more information:

I'll say this, I have talked to Steve Barnett in the past year, and he was real cordial, and informative, and a pleasure to talk to...even invited me up there to see the place. I have been trying to find a good, reasonable excuse to make the 600 mile round trip, and possibly buy a gun from him. Although his prices are too high for me, at least I could have made a reasonable offer on a sxs that caught my eye. I think now, that I have found a good, reasonable excuse to stay home!

binko

Binko,
In spite of my comments regarding fair dealing practices, you must realize there is a big difference between being told what you want to hear over the phone...and actually having a gun in hand as a dealer describes its virtues. I expect that a face-to-face with Mr. Barnett would be very educational...plus handling the guns will give you immediate feedback as to "puffery" or "honesty" in their description and price. The Internet leaves you hoping that a dealer on the phone will "do the right thing"...which may be difficult for any dealer if it's not to their advantage. Face to face is best.

There's another dealer just 135 miles due west of SB on Hwy 82, in Mississippi also, that I am sure that just about everyone here knows about, and I have bought many guns from him, that's Thad Scott. I find his prices a lot more palatable than SB's, but I understand he has fallen on bad health...can anyone enlighten me on his situation?

binko

I had a good experience with Steve this year. Picked up a Walter Locke .410 Hammer gun. IMHO the more "full time" of a dealer you're dealing with the more of a hit and miss chance that you will have. They have to move the product through to eat. Also the slower the refund, they want to float that cash.

tim

What also turned me off is the fact that, SB wouldn't acknowledge the buyer. He didn't deal man to man but left it up to his secretary(or whoever). Didn't return phone or email? Thats just wrong!

That's my issue, too - the fact that he 'vanished'.

I bet he really "vanished' when he got caught trying to sell that seamlessly sleeved Purdey for original.

When I called Steve about possible issues with my gun, I got him very easily. But my gun had no flaws.

Three most recent experiences and why i'd rather rely on the hourly guy:

Am on the lower East coast and bought a pair of best English shotguns from a West coast dealer with a storeroom and internet presence. I'll never make it out there to see the firearms in person. Good price and a new discount that I jumped on. Three phone calls between myself and the partner/owner before I committed to purchase them. On two of the phone calls he broke the shotguns down and talked me through them, my asking every question i've heard or read or thought about. I was lied to about their condition; there was a bulge in a barrel, appeared to be a rib loose, and there was one non-firing trigger. Wall thicknesses were over-stated. And the original case was missing its original crystal oil bottle upon my receiving the shipment. I called back after receiving the guns and case and advised him of the issues; he said return them for a refund. That's nice, but it would cost me $300 in lost $$ for the shipping both ways. Ultimately I kept them and he gave me $100 check for the lost oil bottle. i won't buy from him again.

Telephonically talked over a nice pre-war commercial German mauser sporter rifle with a known midwest/West dealer, with a storeroom and internet presence. Good price. I'll never make it out there to see the firearm in person. Three phone calls with the owner, one phone call in which he pulled the action and barrel from the wood as per my request; i asked specifically about any cracking or chipping or migrating cracks etc in the interior of the stock and as well outside on top behind the action - was told none. When i got the rifle, the back top of the pistol grip right behind the action had an obvious near-chipout in a horshoe-like shape. So that was a lie. I called him about it and his only reply was that all Mausers of vintage have these cracks or what have you at the rear, so send it back if i'm not happy. I didn't, I chose to keep it. When i later broke the gun down completely, what did I find? yes, inside the stock there was through and through cracking of the wood in those inner channels. i won't buy from him again.

Last experience and only two weeks ago, major auction house (Rock Island Auction) ~ a pre-war mauser bolt action with a less than adequate photograph pictured on line. The college-age kid on the phone who called me back a day later with the condition report honestly answered every question i had, gun in hand, even to detail the degree of pitting on the detachable scope, its slight haziness, too and every minutia one could think of about the wood and metal. The rifle when received was in exactly or even better condition than described.

I've had similar experiences in the past wrt owner/employees and to me it seems that far better when purchasing something sight unseen is to catch an hourly employee on the phone to walk/talk you through a firearm because they seem to have less invested in it and seem to be more open and honest.

binko, I understand that Thad Scott has Lou Garrets disease. He basically liquidated his stock about one year ago. He is still in business, however, he only has about twenty guns in stock. I believe he was a mentor to SB. His gun dicriptions & photos were very limited for a reason. I bought & traded many guns with him over the years. Never with SB. Thad would never volunteer any information. In the past, I have traded guns to Thad Scott that ended up with SB at significantly higher prices. I believe that the number one priority with either one of these dealers is to sell guns. When you buy old guns, its a crap shoot. Thad was always willing to take anything back on trade at the price you paid, and I believe that gave him the edge over a lot of dealers. It kept me coming back.

Regards,

Max

Some here think that getting taken for shipping costs is the price you pay for dealing in the internet, that buyers on our level should either know better or take a road trip to see the gun in hand.

Two points come to mind. Buyers such as EDM and eightbore are more well known to sellers such as the one that are the reason for this thread. I submit that the seller in question might take a request for an accurate description differently if it came from EDM or eightbore than if it came from Recoil Rob or Sliver. A reputable dealer treats all customers well.

The second point addresses those that say we shouldn't be buying guns over the internet. Face it, this is the future, it's here and for some is the only choice. If it's not wise for us to buy over the internet why then is it acceptable for so-called reputable dealers to sell over it? They all have a web presence and while I would be careful about buying from individuals shouldn't one be as comfortable buying from a well known dealer over the web as in his shop? I agree there should be some personable responsibility but we're all not experts here, that's why we rely on reputable dealers.

In Slivers case, it just wasn't an oversight, at the least it was sloppy salesmanship.

Unknown stranger like Silver is good type to dump less desirable guns on. Billie and Eddie will always get the better ones. Life is not fair, and if Herr Silver grew up in socialist state he would have realized this by 5th grade, but in this society of "equality" they feed you this BS in high school.

Well, at least we don't have to worry about them getting bailed out by the government, we, [that's us gullible, gun buyers], have been bailing them out thru the years, buying their junk, after being lied to, with them just hoping that we decide to keep it anyway, and all the while knowing that they aren't going to be out a cent on the deal, even if we decide to send it back, cause we are paying both ways. I resent being put in this position, but it is the price I pay for having this addiction...Welcome to a true, un-talked about, addiction, and guess who are the unmentioned "Drug Dealers"! All agree, say, "YEAH"

binko

binko

Well, some hombre has to get less desirable stuff so it might as well be unknown stranger and not well known dude or a repeat customer. The fact that stranger is stuck paying delivery/return costs for something he would not have bought if he was given accurate assessment truly sucks!

I imagine Steve Barnett is wishing this thread would die out. I dont think it should as dealer ethics or extreme lacks of same are of interest to the members of this board. It lets us know who to avoid. What is perhaps sad is it has helped convince people like me to avoid purchasing through online dealers many of whom are in fact honest, but how do you know. If I cant see it in person, I aint buying. In this day, events like The Vintage Cup are of more value than ever because it seems more of our dealer are lacking in values.

I've only bought about six guns via internet sites. Maybe I've just been lucky, but by sticking with sellers who provided many good sized pictures and detailed descriptions, and who also would promptly answer any additional questions I had, I have done OK. One seller of an I Grade Lefever had pictures so large and clear that I don't think I could have seen more by holding it in my hands at a shop. In fact, that gun was actually better than I thought. That said, if I ever do have a bad experience after due diligence on my part, I WILL certainly out that dealer here and I don't care who thinks it ungentlemanly. I really feel that is a service we can and should provide to each other here to lessen the chance it will happen to us or others. I do realize one mans' subjective comments are not necessarily gospel, but a collective positive or negative rating will help us decide to take a chance or steer clear. Short, curt comments like, "Pete Podunk is a Crook" are not helpful. Be specific. If I say a gun has 80% case color and you think I'm a liar because in your opinion it has 79%, say that so that the rest of us can decide if I'm a liar or you are nit-picking. I really do hate it though, when someone here gets burned, describes the burn in great detail, cannot resolve the problem, and then refuses to let us know who the unscrupulous dealer is.