Sold to me as a Guild gun. It weighs 4lbs 11 oz. At least 90% case color, 14"LOP, modern dimensions on stock drop, 25" barrels with .05 in both barrels, has been shortened, I assume an inch. I don't know much about markings on Belgian guns but I could not walk away from this one. Looks like an inexpensive gun. Comments would be appreciated.

IF that is an underlined 'c', it would be a 1964 gun

I believe it is an underlined c. Thanks. I never would have guessed it is that new. There is an LL in a circle that you cannot quite see in the picture just behind the forend hanger. I assume that is who made the barrels.

The gun was proofed in 1964. The controller of proof was Clement Laenen.

LL is Leon Leclercq:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leclercq%20leon%20gb.htm

For more Belgian proof and trade marks:
http://damascus-barrels.com/bp.html

Pete

Thank you, Pete. I have most of it figured out. This is fascinating.

In the bottom right of the water table picture is F.D.C with an arrow running through it, feathers on the left side. There are several FDC's but none with an arrow on your list. Any idea who made the gun?

FDC is most likely François Dumoulin. But that is a best guess. Figuring out who did what is always a puzzle.

Nice little gun by the way. I picked up a 28ga hammer gun made about 15 years earlier. Learned to appreciate the 28ga!

Pete

Thanks. You see so few 28g. and this is probably the first hammer gun in 28 I have seen that is affordable so I grabbed it. It is very "cute" and with the 14" LOP was not made for a kid. I picked it up yesterday and have not shot it. It is snowy and icy here today so it will have to wait until tomorrow at best.

It is marked 2865 in a circle. I assume it means 28g. 2 1/2" chambers. I measure 2 5/8" but it is even harder to measure such a narrow bore because it is harder to see. I have been struggling whether to lengthen the forcing cones or shoot my 2 3/4 loads and ignore the difference. I do this is 12 gauge but there is a lot less room for error here and I don't make low pressure loads in the 28 gauge and I imagine that low pressure is a relative term when it comes to such a small gauge.

Because it is such a light gun (4lbs 11 oz) and I have heard that kick is increased when the hull is longer than the chamber (although I see no logical reason it should make any difference) should I be concerned with stresing the stock?

That is a fascinating little gun! Imagine someone making a mid 19th century gun in modern times with modern steel. Do the proofs marks give you any pressure limit? It is not as if there were a group of re-enactors demanding a gun like this one. I still wonder why--- Looks like you'll be having fun with that one. David

RST offers 2-1/2 inch 28 gauge shells with 5/8 ounce of shot in a number of shot sizes. Not cheap, but no more than a box of factory Winchester AA 28s. The lighter than normal load would probably reduce the strain on the stock as well. Check out the options at http://www.rstshells.com/shells.htm

Note that 65mm = 2.559" or nominally 2 9/16" (2.5625"). The British have called their guns 2½" for years, but according to both Greener & Burrard I believe except for some very early ones they have generally had chambers of from 2 9/16" to 2 5/8".

Milt,
I like it - A modern back-action 28, sized for grandkids!

I'd measure the barrels w/ a metric (centimeter) scale before I assumed they were cut.

The first thing I did was call Mike Orlen from the road when I purchased it to see if he could extend the forcing cones in a 28g. He said no problem. When I got home I measured the chambers and came up with 2 5/8" so I decided 2 3/4" shells in a modern steel gun should work fine. Thanks to the members here being able to date it as a 1963 gun. I would have guessed more like 1910 or 1920 without their help. After all, it is a back action hammer gun as Yeti points out. So I saved the cost of extending the forcing cones (and the risk of cutting inside the barrels and changing the wall thickness) and the RST shells are great but will cost more than the gun after a few cases.

I had to run up to the local skeet range near here to drop something off and the sun came out so I shot a round of skeet with it using shells I had loaded a couple of years ago. I shot it really well which was a surprise for a sub 5 pound gun. The only misses were with the left barrel. The trigger pull was long with a very hard pull, so hard that I was literally pulling the gun when I pulled the second trigger. It also did not fire a couple of times in that barrel and I pulled the hammer back again and it fired on the second drop of the hammer each time. I guess when I have a little time I will pull off that lock and see what I can do with it. If I can't fix it off it goes to Dewey Vicknair for adjustment.

When I saw the gun at the gun shop I was thinking about my Grandson in a couple of years and maybe the kid in me was coming out a bit too. It was so light and cute. I measured a 14" LOP to a case colored steel butt plate so it was not designed for a kid. The spray on finish on the stock that is peeling a bit hides some fiddleback that I saw the next day when it was on my desk and the sunlight was shining directly on it. I guess they used a semisolid stain on it before spraying on the finish.

Using my Stan Baker bore gauge (the one with the three little balls on it) I measure the right barrel as .555 and the left at .553" with cylinder choke. When the dealer measured it with me he used one of the bore gauges that you turn a knob and three or four fingers expand more like a micrometer. I watched him and he came up with .05 choke in both barrels but only the last quarter to half inch so I figured there was an inch or so missing, besides the barrels do not touch at the muzzle. My gauge may not be able to pick up the small change because the balls are ready to slip out of the bore when you get that close to the end. I don't think the dealer was trying to pull something over on me since I have purchased from him before and I was watching him do it. The tag on the gun said .04 choke in both barrels. It also said $900 but after checking the consignment gun over with me he said I could have it for $600. Out the door it went.

The barrels are 24 15/16" long exactly.

I presume you realy mean .005" & .004" on those chokes .04"-.05" would be tight indeed in a 28ga.

The barrel stamps indicate a bore of 14.0 mm = .5512" and a choke to 13.9 = .5472"

2-piper,
You are correct. I was having my morning coffee and was not quite revved up yet. Thanks.

Revdocdrew,
Now I am really confused. When you subract those two numbers you get .004 which is what the dealer measured in both barrels. Only the right barrels is marked that way. The other just says 14.0 mm. Remeasuring as careful as I can I come up with .555 and .554 still with cylinder choke. The dealer had .004 for both chokes on the tag and measured .005 on both in front of me. He seemed to think they were only 1/4" to 1/2" long and seemed to agree the barrels may have been cut. My three ball Stan Baker gauge may not pick it up if it is only 1/4 inch long but that does not make sense to me either. Huh?

Well, I pulled out the vernier caliper which has an electronic readout although it was a somewhat inexpensive one. I read .554 at the right muzzle and between .552 vertically and .556 horizontally in the left muzzle which is apparently slightly out of round.

The thinnest part of the barrels are about half way down the barrels and I calculate .0275" thick which seems pretty good for such a light gun.

I am pretty good at measuring but I may be over my head here without the best equipement nor the most experience at it. Could the measurements be a coincidence between the bore gauge and the vernier caliper? I think I should bring the barrels next time I am at Dewey Vicknair's place or at the next show where that guy sells that caliper that goes 7 inches or so into the bore and have him measure it. Here in my amateur shop it looks like cylinder/cylinder to me.

Even if it is cyl & cyl, it will do fine on close birds.

There should be an additional marking -- the barrel weight. It should look something like 1K123. That is the barrel weight in kilograms. It was done at the proof house after it passed proof. It is the Belgian method to let you know if the barrels have been tinkered with. So all you need is a scale...

I was thinking about that chamber marking of 65mm. I seem to recall that the 28ga is not legal for hunting in Belgium. One of the reasons you do not see many.

My guess on the left trigger is that it just needs a good cleaning. Perhaps some light stoning.

For the price you paid, you got a little gem.

Pete

It is for the 2 1/2" cartridge and is nitro proof. It's a light little gun so do go spoiling it with those heavy American loads. The standard load for this gun/cartridge combination is 9/16th. ounce. In very good condition and in 28 bore is a premium. It should be a delight to use with the proper ammo. Lagopus.....

If it was intended for 2 3/4" cartridges it would be marked 70mm instead of 65mm. Most British and Belgian 28 bores are made to shoot the light loads which is part of the joy of using a light gun. It will perform better with the light stuff and not put an undue strain on it. Lagopus.....

I know it is a little gem. Just trying to learn. It is part of the process no matter what I buy and I find this fascinating. I am collecting for two or three years and I have so much to learn. It is a bit overwhelming at times.

My scale measures .98kg and the barrel says 1Kg110 so converting I come up with approximately 4.6 ounces missing. That seems like a lot on a 28g. gun that has barrels that weigh a bit over 2 lbs. Maybe it had 28" barrels and there is 3" missing?

I would start to guess at 65cm for the length. For another exercise in mathematics you could find the center of each tube at the breech and measure the distance between the centers. Then find the center of the tubes at the muzzle and measure that distance. Then with the length along the top rib and with the diameter of each tube at the muzzle as well as inside wall thickness, project the inside of each tube until they intersect using similar triangles. This is all based on the thought that the tubes are concentric. I have no idea if it will work.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Is there a source for loading data for light loads? IMR, Hodgdon and Winchester all start at 3/4 oz. The lowest pressure is around 10,000psi at 1150fps.

Holy crap....whaaa...

happy holidays,
tim