A customer of mine called me yesterday. He had purchased a new Beretta SO-5 a few years ago from one of Beretta's Premium dealers. Not long after receiving the gun he noticed that the mid rib was a little loose in the area under the forearm. He was told that it was not a safety issue and not to worry about it.

A week or so ago he sent the gun to a gunsmith at one of Beretta's Gallery's to have a leaf spring replaced. As this Premium Gallery is authorized to provide warranty service he asked them to re-solder the loose mid-rib while it was there.

The gunsmith called back and replied that the gun couldn't be fixed under warranty because, as he advises, the loose mid-rib was caused by a bulge in the barrel. This bulge was measured by the gunsmith to be 1/1000" (.001). He advised that this rendered the gun unsafe, and before he could return the gun to him my customer would be required to sign and return a waiver advising that he acknowledged that the gun was being returned in an unsafe condition and any continued shooting would be done at the customers own risk and Beretta would absolved of any liability in the event of an accident.

They advised the customer that the barrel bulge was most likely caused by shooting a popular brand of imported shells which was known for problems with cocked wads. (This customer has never reloaded a shell in his life).

My primary experience is with wood, and I do not profess any expertise or knowledge on safety issues on barrels. However, having said that, I am struggling to understand how a bulge of .001 renders a gun unsafe, and how this obviously becomes the customers fault because he may have shot factory shells that had a cocked wad.

I also have an extreme dissapointment with Beretta in the level of support they have provided to a customer who spent $20k on a premium gun.

I would appreciate hearing anything the members could contribute.

Thanks,

Hack

Beretta goes to extreme lengths to avoid lawsuits. I would give them $1000 for that unsafe wall hanger.How did the smith measure .001 ??
bill

Beretta goes to extreme lengths to avoid lawsuits. I would give them $1000 for that unsafe wall hanger.How did the smith measure .001 ??
bill

You said that the owner noticed the mid rib was loose not long after he purchased the gun and was told it was not a safety issue. I am wondering who told him that and I would have sent it back to the manufacturer right then........ Also, you said that it was caused by shooting a certain brand of shells that are known to have cocked wads. That part is bull. I have a brand new Remington Gun Club (on display), in my basement that has a cocked wad. I noticed it was cocked during a round of trap when it wouldn't go into my gun because the wad is pushed so badly out the side of the shell. One of the guys I shoot with had a AA with the wad cocked just a few weeks ago and couldn't get it into his gun far enough to get the gun to close. So, any manufacturer can produce a shell that has a cocked wad as far as I am concerned. Plus, I have NEVER had a cocked wad in all the thousands of rounds I have loaded over the past ten years. Just my opinion. Good luck.

i think the question needs to be framed more in the context of a person buying a NEW top of the line Beretta from one of their uatorized dealers shortly afterwards noticing a problem. He was then told (by the same factory authorized dealer?) that it was not a problem and when one of the factory's specialty dealers checks it out he is told that the barrel is bulged/unsafe as well as the rib problem and instead of things being put right he is told to sign a waiver that it it trashed and they can't be held responsible.

He should have immediatley escalated the issue to Beretta headquarters and provided them with details and receipts. This should have been covered by warranty.
I hope he didn't sign the waiver.

From what you say it has now been a "few years" since he paid over $20k for this thing and followed up on this unresolved problem and poor service. I would still try and get some service from Beretta headquarters (in italy). he might try contacting Rich Cole in Maine to get an opinion and see if he would be able to fix it properly (hopefully on warranty) and possibly provide a name/address to contact at Beretta.

The fact that there is a 'bulge' no matter how much or little means that the barrel steel has undergone 'inelastic' deformation as opposed to 'elastic deformation'. Steel can and does undergo elastic deformation and returns to original dimensions with it proerties of tensile strength unchanged.
When steel undergoes inelastic deformation, the tensile strenght decreases and may fail subsequently catastrophically.-Dick

It's not clear if he had shot the gun before or after he noticed the loose rib. If it was after, then it is a clear new gun warranty issue. He should contact Beretta in Italy.
Joe

"Also, you said that it was caused by shooting a certain brand of shells that are known to have cocked wads. "

Jimmy:

I did not say the problem was caused by shooting shells with cocked wads. That was the explanation from the Beretta Gallery gunsmith. I agree that his explanation is "Bull".

I also agree with everyone that said the problem with the loose mid-rib should have been dealt with immediately, but that's not the hand of cards we are playing with.

I also have already advised him to send the gun to Rick Cole and ask him to intercede with Beretta in Italy.

Thanks,

Gary

Dick:

Thanks for that explanation.

Hack

Sounds to me like Beretta is trying to cloud the issue and not pay for an expensive repair. I would love to hear how the gunsmith determined the bulge was .001" Even if it is true, it is not enought to affect the barrel's strength. I hate to hear this kind of BS from a quality manuf. like Beretta. It makes me think the bean counters have gained too much influence in an old and otherwise revered gun maker.

OB

Dear Mr Beretta,
If I get one of your authorised dealers to hone the bores of my SO-5 by two thousands of an inch, because that is what I like, and whilst he is doing that he fixes the loose rib that you were incapable of fixing when you made this expensive piece of crap.Will it be still covered by your factory warranty as obviously the bores will still be in proof.
Yours sincerely,
John Moses Browning

With all due respect, I disagree completely with the statement that "When steel undergoes inelastic deformation, the tensile strenght decreases and may fail subsequently catastrophically."

First, steels that are of low hardness like barrels, can be "cold worked" ("inelastic deformation" or commonly known as plastic deformation) safely and in most cases this enhances hardness and strength, and often increases fatigue strength. Heck, we do plastic deformation of parts specifically to enhance strength properties on airplanes all the time.

Dents as well as bulges are examples of plastic deformation. Both are safely fix by cold forming almost routinely, because barrel steels are very mallable. So mallable in fact, that the manufacturers routinely roll mark barrels, another form of plastic deformation.

So, I believe the notion that a little ol' .001" bulge reduces strength or is dangerous, is not only false in my estimation, but outlandish as well to this engineer.

"So, I believe the notion that a little ol' .001" bulge reduces strength or is dangerous, is not only false in my estimation, but outlandish as well to this engineer."

This Engineer has degrees in Nuclear Engineering, Graduate study and research in Metalurgy from the University of Wisconsin all which can verified by calling the Department Chair of what is now called Engineering Physics, Michael Corradini http://www.engr.wisc.edu/ep/faculty/ . Mike used to work for me.
Rebut my Post about Metalurgy and steel but don't personally attack me as 'outlandish'!
There is nothing incorrect in what I Posted.
Beretta is correct in that "He advised that this rendered the gun unsafe".
Engineers do not deal in 'estimation' and you should be glad that they are trained not to.
You on the other hand are quick to dismiss and quick to personnaly attack what you don't agree with, unfortuneatly a trait that shows up more and more frequently on the Internet.
I really don't care if you don't agree with me but I do care about your attack on myself. If you want to keep things civil, then an apology is in order, if not, then so be it.-Richard Budowle

Dear Sirs,

This is a very interesting interchange of information and as tone and nuances cannot be conveyed adequately while posting I'd be a little more "thick skinned".

Outlandish (as in bizarre or unfamiliar) doesn't sound as needing apologies, but...

Anyway, I am far from being an engineer, but the example of dents and their repair does seem to grant the fact that the barrel's safety won't necessarily suffer from an "outwards dent".

Am I very out of touch here? If I need correcting go ahead, I am humble enough in my ignorance.

JC

JayCee, I agree on all three counts. Can't begin to imagine how a .001 bulge can render a barrel unsafe!! After all what is the difference between a "bulge" and a "dent"? Dents have been routinely removed from barrels many times greater than .001 and used every season with no problems. JMTC

Gentlemen,

I am new here and aside from the fact there is truly a "gold mine" of information here I am a little disapointed with some of the bantering found here. However, in regards to the question at hand will the 0.001" bulge create an unsafe condition - it is very unlikely. This is assuming no other part of the shotgun was compromised when the bulge occured. No one here other than the owner has personally seen the gun, right ? As previously mentioned the so called bulge is a result of the steel stress exceeding the yield point of the steel (plastic range) resulting in permanent deformation. However, this will not necessarily result in weakening of the barrels or we have many weakened barrels due to dents that have seen regular service for many years. Has anybody ever tried to accurately measure 0.001" repeatedly? Unless you are very experienced and careful with your measuring technique you could very easily exceed 0.001" in measurement error. All else being OK the barrels will be fine.

Hard for me to imagine that .001 inch bulge would have even caused the rib solder to turn loose. I was under the impression that soft solder jobs were much more elastic than that. I have been removing a bulge midway up a set of 30" Utica Fox ejector barrels. This bulge was much, much more than .001", though my memory fails me as to the exact amount right now. Anyway, when the bulge was nearly removed all the way around the barrel except for between the ribs, which required maybe two hours of peening with a specially filed brass punch while a bore plug was inside, one rib finally popped loose at the site. This is no great problem. I will have the ribs removed, after which I will finish removing the rest of the bulge between the ribs, then I will have the ribs relaid and the barrels reblued. I will then shoot the barrels as I do my other Foxes.

I have found that steel, as well as other metals, will work harden. Have no idea whether or not this strengthens the area, but it darn sure gets harder. I am not surprised at Beretta's response, however.

As a student we conducted tensile tests on steel specimens. The purpose of one test was to demonstrate that the yield point of steel can increased by reversal of stress. The experiment showed that if a steel specimen is stressed to the yield point and the load is removed and then a load is reapplied the yield strength increases.At the same time elongation is slightly reduced but the ultimate strength is not changed.You can demonstrate this phenomenon by taking a paper clip and bending it back and forth. You will note that it gets progressively stiffer to bend the clip untill it finally fractures. This is the point when yield and ultimate strength are one and the same.It follows that the elongation is zero at fracture.
My understanding of the British rules of proof is that barrels submitted for proof that are rejected due to small bulge, may be repaired by hammering down the bulge. After reboring these barrels may be submitted for reproof. Provided they pass proof,they are approved for use by the gun maker.

I think you are all a little right, and all a bit wrong too. .001 inch isn't at all dangerous. I'll bet that there is more variation in barrel diameter over the length of the barrel than that. I'm sure that Beretta is as lawsuit-shy as any other company in this litigious society and would naturally advise not to shoot the gun. Mild gun barrel steel will work harden and that is not a good thing in barrel steel. Taken to extreme, work-hardened steel in a single spot on a barrel wall is a recipe for catastrop failure if subjected to sufficient pressure. Non-hardened steel barrel walls would probably just bulge. But in my opinion the cold work to take out .001 isn't going to increase the hardness of the spot to such a degree that there is any risk to anyone.

I think that this is now getting off topic.I do not wish to read about people falling out over THEIR personal opinions.
I believe my tongue in cheek John Moses letter gets to the point of the original query.
Get in touch with Beretta and get them to sort it pronto.
It is very obvious to me that this gun had quality issues before it was released from the factory, and the factory rep who gave his opinion and cause of the bulge needs to be retrained or perhaps even trained.There are Gunsmiths and Gunsalesmen.I don't deal with salesmen.

Best you don't deal with 'smiths either Salopian - you run the risk of a shoddy job, or never seeing your gun again.
When a gun of mine goes on the blink, I get rid of it.
I learned my lesson with a 'smith chasing a barrel dent - looked like a sewer-pipe when he was done.

I would like to thank everyone for their time and comments (and please continue to do so if so inclined).

I think we all pretty much agree that Beretta USA is trying to dodge their responsibility in this matter. If a safety issue does exist, it exists because of a barrel failure, not because of normal usage by the customer.

Thanks Again,

Hack

I have an update on this issue which is really dissapointing. My customer received the waiver letter from Beretta. In it he was advised that he had six months in which to sign the waiver, and they would keep the gun until the waiver was signed or until the six month period had passed. At the end of six months if he had not signed the waiver, the firearm would be destroyed. (Surely they mean just the barrel, but at this point who knows).

Hack

That's the main reason this Board is so good.
I'm tired of reading books and magazine articles with expressions like, this shotgun is, 'Second to none' or 'better then most', which tells you absolutely nothing.
We had a high grade Rizzini up not to long ago with a point of impact problem with it's barrels now a high grade Beretta with bulge and a loose rib.
Now that's information we can use!!

Richard,
I appologize if I've offended you. I've re-read my post several times and while I can't see an attack on you in there, I can see where you might be offended by my use of the word "...outlandish'.

Still, I am very surprised by the Beretta assessment of 'unsafe' for .001". That's only .0005" per wall of the tube. That might be undetectable by eye when sighting down the barrel's o.d.. It's possible that the decimal place may have been transposed. Then I'd be more inclined to agree or be sympathetic to Beretta's assessment even with only a .010" bulge. But such an assessment by Beretta on a .001" bulge is still off the scale in conservatism to me. Structual parts are cold formed from similar condition materials all the time. I would defy Beretta to find tensile data for such a small amount of plastic deformation to support their decision or even get adverse tensile data that reliably shows up after such a small deformation. Furthermore, I would defy Beretta to sign such a waiver and if they failed to return my gun and destroyed it, they would find themselves in court. To force anyone to sign away rights in a waiver or anything else before returning their own property shouldn't be tolerated. At this point, I'd contact the attorney general for the state in which the gun was sent and seek their assistance in resolving this.

It is amazing - some of the stories that we are told by manufacturers. Several years ago I sold a beautiful Fabio Zanotti
double model 625 (Aberchrombie and Fitch) to a friend of time who was moving to London for a couple of years.
He took it to Purdey for some reason to have it checked out. They
removed the Silver name plate in the bottom of the stock and put one in crossways , then told him the gun was not safe to shoot because the barrels were "Riveled" and they needed to rebarrel it.
I told him to bring it back please and I would refund his money.
When I took it to a knowledgeable double gunsmith, he examined it and laughed and said the only problem with the gun was that
it had not been made in England.
.

They start to threatening you with destroying your gun? I believe it is time for an attorney to be involved.

This really sounds outlandish!

If the owner doesn't sign the waiver they destroy HIS gun? Come on, they must be joking. An attorney should be able to bring Beretta back to their senses.

JC

I once used the NY AG online site to file a complaint against a Brooklyn camera dealer that was unscrupulous. They seemed to take it seriously. If Beretta is in NY, I'll bet they'll jump on going after a biz for a big ticket item like a high end shotgun.

I have had Ford and GM both threaten to destroy cars they made, that I bought from them and took back, for service under warranty. Happens all the time.

If Beretta thinks that they can both destroy the gun and not replace it they will find out what a decent lawyer can do to them. Even a half baked lawyer would love to get that case. I would tell them that they have two choices either return the gun, exactly as is and right now, or replace the barrels at their expense. Failure to do one or the other will result in immediate legal action. We are not talking about a $30.00 item here. You buy a high dollar gun you expect high dollar service.

I think I'd be inclined to let them destroy the gun and then sue them in Small Claims Court for full replacement value plus costs, especially if the waiver/warning was not sent by registered mail. Probably much cheaper and easier than fighting with them and then paying someone else to repair the rib.

In regard to Beretta not returning the gun it is your property and if they don't return it it is theft.



In an almost identical situation a lawyer friend of mind bought a brand new Weatherby/SKB 20 gauge Side by Side. The screw-in chokes were defective. He sent the gun back to Weatherby. They claim he caused the problem by shooting the gun with the chokes loose. They also demanded he release them from liability if he shot the gun and if not they wouldn't return it to him. He is as anal retentive as they come and was insulted by that. He wrote them a letter telling them to either send a check or send the gun back. He got a full refund. Now admittedly the Weatherby was still in warranty. The gun was his property and they had to return it regardless of the warranty issues and regardless of waiver of liability release if he demanded it.

If you would like I will give you his name and address. Seems like all he would have to do is change a few words in the word document and send it to Beretta.

Best,

Mike

I understood that Beretta said it was because of one brand that had cocked shells and not you, HackCW.

That is correct. It was Beretta's opinion that a certain brand of imported shells might have caused the problem.

Hack

An advantage of using the state's AG office is that it is a free service and the AG may very well prosecute or sue Beretta. The downside is it's free and you are at the whim of the AG office to decide what/when they will do.