Acquired an Ithaca NID a coupla years ago. I related the tale of the purchase on this forum. And to paraphrase Paul Harvey; "and now, the rest of the story."
My sons and I shoot in a winter trap league up here in Minnesota.....Yeah, it's cold sometimes. My 26 year-old claimed the NID for himself shortly after I bought it. He's kinda husky, and has a round face; the dims. on the old NID fit him perfectly. Matter of fact he broke his first 25 straight, registered targets with it.
Serial no. range 4309xx. It's from the cocking indicator era. Halfway through the winter league, we noticed the top lever was bending to the left! And I mean real bent.......About a forty five degree bend. Seems when the young fella would extract a shell, and reload at the next station, he would snap the gun closed like the Citori shooter next to him......Kinda flashy! Well, I guess the inertia of snapping the action closed, and the fact that the toplever was never hardened properly at the Ithaca factory, and the lever ahead of the thumb piece was extremely thin, and the thumb pad was large and heavy, was causing the lever to bend to the left in a semi-circle. We bent it back straight a few times; but worried about how many times we could do that without it breaking off!
After one night shoot, we decided to give the old gun a good cleaning, and inspection, prior to dismantling the action and sending the toplever to someone to have it re-hardened.
Well, sh**! Here we discovered the left barrel was separted from the ribs, at the muzzle for about 18 inches! Could easily spring it apart over an eighth of an inch! And examining it closely revealed a real poor solder job.....hardly tinned, and just the slimmest little partial line of solder....... And this supposedly, from the height of Ithaca craftsmanship.....
(By the way, that 'ringing the barrels' B.S. is worthless.... These rang like the "Bells of St. Marys" in the gunshop, prior to purchase......)
So.....Mr Merrington will fix 'er up for around a grand.... That makes me feel real warm inside......I only paid 6 bills for it!
Got several old "cornsheller" Model 12 traps........The young guy can slam them shut after reloading, all he wants.... Ain't gonna' hurt nothin'.
So I now have another "closet queen" to rile the old lady with.
Any prospective NID buyers out there....Be careful! Look it over very well, and don't figure on shooting it much.......
Let the flames begin.........! Grant.

Sounds like you got taken, because NIDs are good guns. That gun was probably used up/abused way before you got it and some jackleg gunsmith did the least he could do to pretty it up and move it along.

Like to see some pics of that bent toplever.

Grant,
Don't take this as a flame but it sounds like there is something else going on with the toplever.
I don't understand how the lever could be so soft that the inertia of snapping the gun closed could cause it to bend to the left and yet opening the gun by pushing the lever to the right didn't seem to affect it.
Dan

Grant,
An old double, is just that. While it might be possible to use a late 1920s car to drive in the winter (hard use) it likely would be easier on the car and the driver to use a more modern design automobile for that.
The model 12 of which you speak is a more modern design, inspite of the fact it could actually be older than the NID-how often does one hear of solder failures in a model 12, a model 37 Ithaca, a model 31 Remington, etc? It can't fail if it isn't there, you know. My last trip out grouse hunting was in a cold drizzle, and my two doubles sat in the heated comfort of my safe. I used a model 37 to get my bird, that day.
Regular shooting of registered trap is pretty tough use on an old gun. A husky kid who slams the old girl shut isn't helping matters, either. ANY old double can be affected by the problems you have described.
Kirk is one of the best, and priced accordingly. If I had an English "Best" (keep in mind that the word best is used only to define a gun designed for a very narrow set of specifications, and typical, American "rough shooting" conditions fall outside of those specifications) he would do the work, but, an NID would go to someone else. There are other 'smiths who will hem those tubes back up, and figure out the top lever issue for a bit less folding green.
Instruct the kid on proper use of the old double, have it repaired, and use it about like you would use a car of the same vintage. That is, just for fun.
Best,
Ted

Slam shutting a double isn't good on any gun - old or new. The factory recall for Remington 3200's was to correct the potential problem of hot dogs flip shutting them.

Without seeing it, it doesn't sound like a factory-original gun. The top levers on the NID are on the stout side compared to, say, a Parker and I shouldn't think they would require any hardening at all to do service. The barrels - they do come apart and I would suspect that most of the folks visiting this site have had a set resoldered at one time or another. Keep in mind, too, that it is not wall-to-wall solder under the ribs. Beyond that, it's not like the guys at Ithaca never soldered barrels; Ithaca's reputation was sufficient enough that they sold upwards of a half million doubles - might you have a set of (semi) resoldered barrels. Still, you might have inherited a perfect storm of inattention.

Post deleted by treblig1958

Kinda warms mah ol heart. Ithica bashin was in effect when I first visited this site at about post 500 which was approximately 150,000 posts ago. I'll forgo any comments in respect of the moment.

Tell yer kid NOT to show off his stupidity by slamming any double closed.

Pete, ignorance is correctable. Stupidity is forever. Until such time said ignorance is corrected, call it what it is.

If he does it again, after correction, that is stupidity.

He's a kid, Pete. We all did an ignorant thing or three, back in the day.

Best,
Ted

I thought I read that the shooter was 26 years old? Hardly a "kid"...

Possibility the barrels had seen the hot salt blueing bath in the past and the solder is weakened and slowly eaten away. They will come apart in time from that and the lack of solder in the joint sounds alot like that may have been the cause. You are correct in that ringing the barrels in a worthless endeavor IMHO. I've always felt it was a nice piece of showmanship for the buying crowd but in reality it proves nothing and discloses very little. A really loose rib that would be seen upon visual inspection can sometimes be 'heard',, but don't ever expect the ceremonial knuckle wrapping it to reveal any and all flaws in a soldering job on a double.
That top lever doesn't sound right. Either it's been thinned down at some point (refinish, etc) or it's been broken and repaired midway with a poor weld or silver solder joint and that's where it's bending easily. I've seen more than a few that can be flexed downward onto the top tang so that they scratch the surface of the tang when moved, but never bent and then bent back into position like you're describing unless they were broken to begin with.

If our young gent is fool enough to slam the gun shut enough to bend the lever maybe he has mishandled the gun enough to knock the rib loose. Sounds like the boy is a bit of a hack.

I agree on the ringing issue. That will give you a general feel of the barrels but does not give 100% results. I bought a very nice London made gun a long time ago and when I went to ring the barrels, it sounded awful. I was so convinced that they were loose that I called the dealer up and told him that I would have to send them to my smith. He said he would set $500 aside for the project. My smith called me (after my gun got lost in shipping) and told me that the barrels were FINE. I could not take the $500 because I'm a man of my word. But from that point on the barrel ringing is an indicator not the absolute answer.

Tim

Ted, the NID was pretty much a complete redesign, succeeding the Flues. Dating from about 1925. The Model 12 was designed . . . well, it had to be designed prior to 1912, which makes it older. Unless you mean that a side by side, generically speaking, is an older design than a pump.

It does go without saying that the rib won't come unsoldered on a Model 12, however, if it has no rib. I'm not a pumpgun guy, so I don't know how they attached ribs on those guns, although I know some ribs on pumps (and autos) do come loose.

I've owned a number of NID's, and I never worried much about hunting them in nasty weather. (Nearly all of mine were Field Grades.) It was a strong enough design that John Olin turned to Ithaca to build guns for his 3 1/2" magnum--rather than using his own Model 21, which is famed for its strength.

Much of the Mod 12 design was simply carryover from JM Brownings 1897 model.

Sorry, boys, I don't see any carryover from the '97 to the Model 12 other than the chamber ring adjustment. The lockups are very different with the '97's being superior. A '97 will outlast any Model 12 in real endurance shooting in MHO.

I figure if ya'll been shooting trap with it for two years and just now cleaning it you reap what you sow. Also need a better range master to make sure guns comming to the line are safe.If the barrels are comming apart and temper gone from some of the steel maybe the gun has been in a fire and then hot blued and used wood put on.

My point was pretty much that 80 year old solder is 80 year old solder, Larry. If a soldered rib comes loose on a pump, you can just chisel the thing completely off and keep hunting-it isn't structural, like it is on a NID, or any other double. The first pump gun ribs, ala' the Remington 17 and 31 were integral with the barrel. There was no solder to fail.

The Achilles heel on a double is always the barrels. They are the most beautiful aspect, and weakest element of a double gun. It is extremely old school repeating technology, that the pump, and, later, the autoloader eclipsed.

The NID barrels are a complete rework of what? The barrels were still tinned and held to the rib with the same mix of lead and tin as had been practiced since the middle 1800s.
John Olin was having a hell of a time figuring out how to get the chromoly steel his model 21 used wetted with solder in use at the time, and didn't need any more bad publicity then he already had with model 21 lugs coming loose to screw with a magnum model 21 at the time. He knew he had a problem.

A lot of people today realize he had a problem, too.

If nobody bothers to teach you otherwise, it is OK to be 26 and think you have to slam a double to shut it. I've seen much older examples doing the same. Most folks are instructable, either by teaching, or a spendy repair bill.
Best,
Ted

Maybe the guy was slamming the NID shut while holding the top-lever over and that's what bent it. Bet it hurt his thumb though...Geo

Barrels were reblued by a knucklehead destroying the solder, that's all, I would like to see someone or anyone on this planet that has a thumb strong enough to bend the top lever on my NID except with a BFH you ain't going to do it!! If it happened the way he said it happened then some knucklehead screwed with it too.

Get the kid a "Self Opener" also known as a "Hard Closer", and I guarantee he won't be slamming it shut!

I shot a round of Sporting Clays a few weeks ago with my Gorosable, and I got a little embarrassed by the effort I was having to exert to get the breech closed.

binko

Grant, I was thinking that if your son shoots straights at registered trap targets with an old double, you or he, depending on who's paying the freight, should consider a single-barrel trapgun. Those BT-99s can be had for $700+ and there must be one out there that's bent for his cheek/eye relationship or can be. In any case, now that's he's using one of the stable of Supers, tell him that a slow, deliberate closing of the gun after report from previous shooter changes the pull-bang rhythm and can distract the following shooter. If Dad just happens to be next, the competitive juices will make him see the value. Also think one of the m12s is a great idea.

jack

I would also say the exact opposite of the original post, after some knucklehead got a hold of it and damn near destroyed it trying to make it look better, look how long and how much abuse the NID took before it let go. A lesser gun would have let go along time ago probably blowing the guys hand off!!!
Get your priorities straight will ya!!

Thanks for all the replies......The flames are welcome too; it's cold up here in Minnesota.
I'll try to answer some of the posts. The gun has never been messed with. Has about 75% original finish; never been reblued, hot or cold. Was a closet queen for at least forty years, according to the old aunt who sold it to my gun dealer. Her husband bought it new to hunt with and hunted with it. He had quite a few guns, and treated them well. My shooting buddy has a grade 3 NID with lots of rare non grade 3 options. The toplevers are virtually identical in size, and configuration. His top lever is just fine. Mine is dead soft....And I mean real soft. When it works it's way to the left after a round of trap, it is real easy to bend back. Nobody's slamming the gun shut any harder than we close the Supers, or the Citoris or the Franchis or any of the other trap guns we see at the local range. We aren't bending the toplevers on the Brownings.....We aren't separating the barrels on the old Flues we sometimes shoot, or the Lefever Nitro Special one of us shoots from time to time. The guy with the $16,000 dollar Kolar that lines up with us, shuts his more firmly than we do. That was the point of my post.... NIDs are just another old shotgun. Not particularly strong. Not too durable. Not crafted too well. But to hear some of the hardcore NID aficionados talk; they are bulletproof!
Flash!!!!! I talked to Gunter Pfrommer today. He will repair the NID without demanding my first born as recompence. Says he has worked on more than a few where some of the parts, (including the top lever,) somehow missed the heatreating process. Going to box the old girl up, and send her out first thing Monday morning..... I'll post again with the results of the repairs, the cost, and etc.
'Spose when we get the old gun back, we'll limit it's useage to the occasional pheasant, or a few informal hand-thrown clays and such........ My 26 year-old is now shooting one of Dad's Broadway Traps....... He ain't broke 25 straight with it yet. Again, thanks for all the replies.... Grant.

Grant,
I'm of similar belief as you. They are old guns. They are not particularly well made, in today's standards, especially a field model. The graded guns got more attention as the grades went up, I'm guessing from the quality of fit and finish.

But, if a guy wants to shoot high volume targets today, a modern target gun is what I'd use. Not to say I haven't taken a Fox out for a few weeks in a row at the range, just that I haven't done it year in and year out. However, I am suspicious we have some here that have done exactly that. Possibly, guys like Mike Campbell and others shoot these old guns a lot. I'd be educational to hear their perspective.

Kirk Merrington was interviewed in one magazine or another. I understood that he beilieves the rib coming loose on a double is a matter of normal wear. Not a matter of if, just when.

I would expect a gun built to shoot trap to be built stronger than one intended for upland game. I would also expect the trap gun to be much heavier as a result.

Best,

Mike

Oh, ahhh Grant, could you just go ahead and forget about everything I said on this post???

The doubles got replaced by repeaters back in the day for good reason. The "Best" gun concept went right straight to hell when used in period North American market hunting, sealing, or coastal subsistance waterfowling use, especially if there was a repeater (usually, a model 97 or a model 12) around to compare it to.

Do I love my old doubles? Yup. If I was trying to feed a family, circa 1915, near coastal Alaska, knowing what I know today, would I attempt that by owning any double shotgun and being limited to only that gun? Nope.
You can argue different, but, when the use might mean survival, or not, a double is an inferior tool compared to a repeater. Serious shotgunners figured that out around 1900, and by 1915, Winchester had sold so many model 1912s they wouldn't look back, seriously, at a double, ever again.

Solder, as an adhesive between pieces of steel, isn't forever. A good double has more particular maintenance requirements as well. Understand and accept this when you use use them.

Like I said Grant, get it fixed (it only hurts once) and relegate the gun to retirement duty on bluebird days. Most gunsafes have room for more than one gun.

Best,
Ted

Ted as a general statement pumps and automatics jam more often than Side by Sides and Over & Unders. If you have plenty of game no big deal. I have two pumps (Model 12s in sixteen) and two autos (1100/20 and A5/16) and I like them very much. I don't like it when they jam.

I would also expect the Winchester 21 barrels to go awhile before the rib has to be relayed. The 21 would make a fine subsistence gun if it could be afforded I think. I think since break open guns are less fussy about ammo they are easier to reload for also.

I acknowledge the 21 cost much much more to build than the Model 12.

Best,

Mike

Price played little to no reason, slim-the models 97 and model 12 were never a cheap guns, and many imported doubles, especially from Belgium, were actually cheaper.

The only non-sense would be looking for a gunsmith to re-lay a double rib anywhere in the world that the English politely called "colonial areas" remembering they steered customers into boxlocks toward that use.

Serious shotgunners from the era had a bit of a "lean" look about them, jOe. What do you know about that? Subsistance living doesn't appear to be an area of expertise for you, looking at those love handles you sport. Jelly donut franchises were uncommon.

By 1915, just three years into the model 12s 51 year first life, about 110,000 of them had been built. That number looks a lot like many American double gun manufacturers total production. A few English companys haven't built that many guns yet.

Pumps, even duck boat pumps, really don't jam that often. Autoloaders are different. 16 gauge model 12s are notorious for wanting the correct length ammunition, but, when one of my pumps acts up, it's dirty, or, more likely, operator error.
Best,
Ted

Local shop has something stout that our Young Viking could use. It's Winchester 23 XTR 12ga with Winchokes and original box (like that makes a difference). The price at nearly $1500 is not that unreasonable (it's probably worth about $1200) and the 25" or 26" barrels are hardly a hinderance for gun in it's weight class. Oh, a double is not that outdated one must remember that two extra cartridges can be held between fingers provided those fingers are long enough!
Why would anyone want to own something that handles like a typical O/U w/o it's inherent advantages is beyond me.

I believe the 21 would jam signifigantly less than the Model 12 - even more difference if shooting hand loads.

Best,

Mike

Lets not forget that if you get one of the early ones with double triggers and boat oar style stock you actually have two single-shot guns rolled into one. Very reliable system indeed.

I must just be lucky. Only double I've ever shot something loose on was a 12 bore Flues that as a young man (many years ago) I pounded with pigeon loads of 1-1/4 oz. and Alcan #5 powder. The rib extension loosened in its place between the breeches. Other than that I have an 80 year old Nitro Special 20 bore that's sound as a bell. I treat it gently for sure with more concern for the old wood than any mechanical areas. Have a few other Nitros (two 16's) made in 1924 and 1934. The toughest guns I've ever had were the old Stevens (Chickopee Falls guns) 5100 and a Fox Model B from Utica Savage's first year of production. It even has a serial #! Maybe not the prettiest guns but sure damned good tough old girls. Chuck from Torrence had a wonderful tutorial on relaying ribs. He is some great guy! One of my favorite posters along with Ted. Chopperlump

Does one reckon the fact those pumps/autos held either 5 or 6 shells instead of two had more to do with selling them than either price or solder joints??? This was a day of large to No bag limits & everybody thought if their gun just had one more shell in it they could have killed more game. It was pure & simple "Greed" the once bbl repeater held more shells.

Ted...I just love it when you grace us with your words of wizz'dom then resort to belittling people when you look stew'ped.


go have a Darne Jello dOnut ol'Chap.....I hear they are good for the brain.

Oh, right. All the folks competing in international trap events, ever since 1908, with double guns mostly, burning thousands of loads a year - they must have had tons of problems with ribs coming loose, must have had to resolder ribs every season or so... strange I haven't heard anythiong about this problem, though, but what do I know...

I know one 'ole NID that gets shot on a very regular basis and has yet to hic-hup. Mine!!

Amarillo - I dunno. I'm having a hard time thinking of a gun that has thinner ribs than a Model 21 - I've got a five pounds, three ounce, 28" bbl 20 gauge that has more rib than a 12 gauge 21. Interesting topic in itself. I'll have to go up and down the street and ask to turn the neighbors' 21s upside down and take a look.

I have yet to see a 21 with a rib problem.

I have one old 21 trap gun that must have had a million rounds through it. The aftermarket Simmons ventilated rib had to be repaired but the originals are just fine.

Mike

Grant have you thought about donating it to your local Cracker Barrel ?

Come on Joe, do we really need to start this again?
On the subject both my NIDs are fine, all my guns see more shooting thena they were made for. A field grade NID or anything else was built to shoot from 1 to 6 boxes of shells a year for maybe 30 or 40 years, a target gun will exceed that in less than a season.
I have cheap Belgian hammer guns (Bayards)that run a couple of thousand shells a year, so far knock on wood, I have had to deal with one broken hammer.

Miller,
I was going to bring that point up too, but, remember, greed might not be the right word to use about people living in coastal Canada, shooting eiders, and using every part of the bird for survival. Existance, in a subsistance world, doesn't correlate nicely with our notions of sport, fair chase, or greed, today. I'm OK with that. Can hardly blame the old coots that gave us the greatest generation for doing that with efficiency. All the blow-hards who crow loudest about ethics, sport, or whatever haven't looked hunger real square in the face in their lifetimes, or faced the challenges faced by our ancestors in the past. Those same ancestors gave us the changes that lead to our comfortable notions of wildlife managment and fair chase.

Pump wins the efficiency contest, hands down. Funny, that Winchester managed to sell a 'coupla million of those guns that spent all their time jammed, according to some here. My first year 20 gauge model 1912 has never jammed in my use, in spite of cheap-ass old me not spending the dough for proper length (2 1/2") ammunition for it. Ditto the Remingtons, Ithaca 37s, and Mossberg 500s that litter the place. My doubles don't seem to complain too loudly when I take a pump out into the rain, sleet, or, whatever, in the fall.

The high scores in international shooting have long favored other gun designs, by the way.

I didn't tell Grant to junk his double, I said to get it fixed (nothing worse than a broken gun in the house) and, use it in the future with a nod to it's age, and the cost of good quality, qualified, double gun maintenance.

I use that model 12 the same way, but, in the rain. With a plug. I handle the maintenance, or, lack thereof.

Whatever is most efficient, right?

Best,
Ted

Grant, you know it would be a shame for your son to put this gun up and not shoot it. This is what we are looking for all the time, a gun that feels good and we can break lots of targets with. It is obvious to me that your son and this gun are made for each other. Get it fixed, explain the proper way to close an old double and let him shoot the old gal. This old Ithaca that the lever bent like silly puddy will always be a special bond with you two. This is a special gun.

tim

Sometime in the very near future, a new Prez might have to throw a bone to the far left crowd and outlaw pumps 'n autos.
By his own voting record, only break-open shotguns and 22lr bolt rifles will make the grade.
Something to remember when looking at a high grade M12!

Yes, I do remember that. It all centered around using duck loads in a Flues. Never any 1st hand information... At least that is my recollection.

Pete

The old girl's on her way to Gunter Pfrommer as of yesterday. I'll post on her repairs when she gets back. Grant.

Non-aboriginal subsistance hunting was practiced up until the early 1960s along the coast of Nova Scotia, jOe-don't let your narrow mind (the only narrow part, I might add) get in the way of the facts. The rest of your blather is about as well researched. Two million people managed to find the money for a model 12 pump. Not many were rich.
Market hunting was LEGAL, jOe-Market hunters were simply folks making a living. Skybusters, they were not-they knew exactly how to take game, efficiently. Times changed. While you would tar them all as criminals, this is quite untrue. Most of what you post is un-researched, narrow-minded opinion, from your self rightous, well-fed place in time today.
Best,
Ted

The large St.Louis hardware stores sold ol'doubles(remaining inventory of Remington hammerless & SAC guns) for much less than the newer M12. I'd think many of these farmer guns made it into the hands of market hunters.

The Ithaca NID design is actually much more "modern" than has been indicated. It has a rotory bolt locking mechanism that both simple and extremely strong.
I have 5 Ithaca Classic Doubles that have tens of thousands of rounds through them collectively and are all functioning perfectly.
I use these guns in all kinds of weather for both hunting and clay targets.
If you're having a problem, send the gun to Gunter Pfrommer. He knows these guns better than anyone. He will get it done right the first time and will not brake the bank.

Gunter Pfrommer
2954 Hopkins Rd
Rocky Mount, VA 24151
(540) 484-5555

And I guess these "nOn-aboriginal subsistance" hunters preferred pumps...

Sounds like someone spiked your jelly donuts Teddy.

Hunting aborigines for subsistance has always been in questionable taste LOL! Plain old subsistance hunting, fishing, trapping was certainly going on in Ohio in the 50s and in some ways it was a supersistance as it all tasted considerably better than Spam (with the exception of muskrat). So I can easily imagine that the wild and wonderful land of Evangeline might encourage folks to find food or starve.

jack

Wonder how many "Subsistance" Iver Johnson Champions & H&R Toppers were made in comparsion with those pumps. As they say, Different Strokes for Different Folks. Those wanting quality bought Doubles, those wanting to "Throw the Most Lead" to "Kill the most Game" bought pumps &/or autos, & those just wanting to shoot something to eat as cheaply as possible bought a single.

Just the suggestion of hunting Australian Aborigines seemed to cause a lot of pain and suffering, for both sides, on "Quigley Down Under".

I can't hardly believe you don't like Spam.............deer camp T-bone.
Curtis

Ok, you got me Curtis. I love Spam! Nissan noodles too if it's wet and cold. Pry up foil, fill with rainwater, replace foil, carry around in pocket for an hour on top of a JONI heater-- delicious!

I'd bet Pipes is spot on about how many barrels (and shells) fit with a poor man's budget.

jack

I beg to differ- John M. Browning designed the first "cornsheller" the Model 1893-for black powder, lo-pressure loads. Some evn had Damascus (aka- "frag-grenade") barrels. He later revised that to the Model 1897-for the newer (circa 1894) smokeless powder loads. Winchester produced it until in 1957 in both 12 and 16 gauges.

Winchester and John M. "split the blanket" in 1903 re: the Browning A-5- aka- "the square-back" and as Thomas Crossley Johnson helped John draw up the final designs and patents, when Winchester refused to give John a royalty on each A-5 they sold (Major League FUBAR, with 20/20 hindsight) John went to rival Remington-UMC- bad luck, Marcellus Hartley Dodge- the UMC "Head Fred" croaked in a BOD meeting whilst John M. Browning was waiting for an audience- so John "trucked over the pond" to the Belgies, and the FN lads worked him a sweet deal.

When WRA had Tommy Johnson work on a competing semi-auto- the abortion called the Model 11- aka- "The Widow Maker" he had a Hell of a time avoiding patent right lawsuits from old John M. browning. Tommy Johnson started on the design on the great Model 1912 in 1907- by 1910 they had a proto-type, a 20 bore 2 and 1/2" chambers- and after testing the living piss out of it, brought it out in 1912- rather than re-tool the Model 1897 for the smaller 20 gauge.

In late 1913-early 1914 they offered the Model 1912 in 16 gauge, on the 20 gauge receiver- with 2 and 9/16" chambers, and the 12 gauge with 2 and 3/4" chambers- all with Nickel Steel barrels. The Model 1912- later known as the Model 12 after aprox. 1919- does have the interrupted thread take-dwon and magazine tube lock feature from Browning's Model 1897- but that is ALL.

The Model 12 was and still is (I own 7-all pre-WW11 except for one)"The Perfect Repeater" . Read Dave Petzal's great article on the Model 12 in the May 1985 issue of Sporting Classics. He refers to the clays shooting for which the Model 12 set so many endurance records-beyond belief.

No repeater is as durable as an unaltered Model 12- despite the late great Rudy Etchen and his 1950 era Rem 870 12 gauge 12 grade.. IMO of course. And I deleted the rest of my posts due to the M12 being "Off Topic" on a Ithaca NID post.

So, is a single shot a souless "killing machine" jOey? Funny, but that picture you put of yourself with a turkey and a double sure looked like you killed him with your "killing machine" double. I'm pretty sure you didn't run that turkey down, anyway.
You don't strike me as a sprinter.

Talk like that reminds me about the dweebs Bodio and Kerasote wrote about who somehow think they are on morally higher ground because they crush plant fiber with their molars instead of ripping animal tissue with their incisors, ignoring the fact they have both kinds of teeth in their mouth. But, never mind jOe-likely, teeth are but a distant memory from your childhood.
Best,
Ted

Corn-holer - I never thought I would see that term on a gun board, well other than the SSMBS - that place is run by them

And right off the bat I can think of 5 Pumps more durable than a Model 12 Winchester (OK Don you can jump right in here )

Not to many pumps aren't durable. They were a repeater for salt of the earth folks.

That said, the problem with a model 12 that I don't like is when they break the firing pin, and it protrudes in the broken position enough to fire a round on closing. Unfortunately, that is a fraction of a second before lockup is complete. It can be, spectacular.

I own a copy of a model 1912. My favorite, however is a model 37. Neither gun was built with solder.
Best,
Ted

The two most elegant pumps in my opinion are a Model 12 16 Ga. & a Remington Model 17.

Ted, could you elaborate on the broken pin scenario--as in where goes the bolt, the gas, etc. when a m12 fires with the bolt out of battery? I've put well over 2500 rounds thru a '41 12 ga skeet, trap, and hunting (my aftermarket-barreled axe with Col. Arms choke tubes that I think so much of) and it aint done it yet. However, the skeet nazi is always looking askance at it and its recently acquired safe companion ('47 plain barrel skeet grade w/ factory Cutts) as if either one is going to do something disastrous any moment. I'm surmising he may have been present for an event of this sort. He himself manages to flinch his way to most of his monotonous 25s with an all-gauge menagerie of 11XXs, and once in a while a 20 ga. 870. Occasionally he'll also show up with an old Baker and miss.

jack

Most durable pumps (just an opinion)

Mod 31 Remington
Mod 97 Winchester
High Standard
Ithaca Mod 37
Stevens 520

I like 870's and 37's but the J.C. Higgins Model 20 (High Standard) is a very good gun.

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Just a "Dumb" Question I know but how do you get that "Chisel Hardness" on the surface of a piece of 4140 & maintain a "Less Hard Core". By design Case hardening is applied to steels not suceptible to much hardening so that hard case can go over a soft core. To draw 4140 back to a point it would not be "Brittle Hard" would also draw that Chisel Hardness out of the case. Case hardening is not normally applied (For Good Reason) to steels of above about 20 points carbon. 41"40" has 40 points.

I have seen only one model 12 that has suffered the broken firing pin disaster. I need to get over and photograph the gun, as it clearly shows heinous scarring of the receiver internals from the gun firing before lockup was complete. The participants of those festivities are all deceased, but, family still owns the gun and recounts the events of a cold, depression era duck hunting mishap. Grandpa pulled up on a ducky, missed the first shot, and had the gun just about in the final stages of being racked, when it fired again, this time without trigger being pulled, and with recoil spilling the contents out the ejection port. Uncle lost much hearing in left ear for the rest of the day, no other injuries noted. Gun was repaired at home, and is used infrequently to this day. I've never heard of any other designs of pump pulling the same stunt. My father was aware that this condition occured on model 12s, but, had never seen one do that, and his military experience gave him a lot more exposure to model 12 and model 97 Winchesters than I ever will have. A cursory inspection of the gun after use will likely eliminate the possibility of it happening 99.9% of the time.
Of the dangers we face in life, I'm guessing this one is pretty far down on the list. I've actually sold and traded my model 12 off a few times, but, it keeps coming home. No regrets, and lots of fun. It isn't my model 17, but, it's not far off.
Best,
Ted

Amazing....

What jOe said.......

Foxy, "tw" in Tehas was looking for an open Cutts tube I think maybe for a 20 ga M12. I've seen a few guys shooting 42s at skeet but I don't have the moneybag, patience with burnt hulls, or skill to fool with .410. Make mine 12, 12, 12 (maybe a 16 or two in there). I do have a 20 ga. progressive MEC and never use it as have only the 20 ga. Western Field (Iver Johnson Champion)that belonged to my dad. I used to have a Citori Superlight 20; I couldn't hit the side of the barn standing inside.

jack

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

RWTF;
All that is fine by me, & I was not arguing the virtues or lack thereof of the M12. I like doubles & could care less one way or the other. All I was saying was that I would bet my last dollar, just prior to coming off a 40 day fast (& I'm a big eater, incidently) that "IF" a M12 firing pin is case hardened it was not made of 4140, Or "IF" it was made of 4140 it would not have been case hardened. But hey, don't forget you're the one who named the metal, not me & what the receiver is made of has little bearing on the firing pin. The receiver of a M12 is not case hardened incidently, but blued.

RWTF, you and about everyone else that has or had the chance to shoot or own a Model 12!!!!

A hungry man don't want to see a dish of kibble.

jack

We want pictures of some of that waterfOwl Foxey....not just your dribble...

I mean your kibble...

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Pictures Foxey not "kibbles"...