Is it a rare caliber, old and never used these days? Obviously metric. On a Sauer drilling.

11.15 x 60R = 43 mauser

This is the link to the gun:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=114491370

Without slugging and measuring the chambers, impossible to tell.

I would wager, however, this one would be the straight-walled case 11.15X65 "Lancaster". Fourty-four caliber, 300 grain jacketed pistol bullets work for me.

Best,

C.

Sliver:
I don't know what your specific interests me be here, But it's usually possible to come up with loads for these guns using basic 45/70 type brass. I'd want this gun thoroughly checked over first before attempting this if it were me. First item of busines is to see what's going on under that grip wrapping.
jim

C and Jim,
Do you mean that you can buy rounds for this caliber? Or do you load your own?
Thanks for your help!

Unlikely that you can buy loaded ammo, but if it does turn out to be the likely round that C. mentions above it should be relatively easy to load for. Rim and head dimensions of the 11,15x65R "LK" are the same as the easily available 9,3x74R round according to Dixon's "European Sporting Cartridges vol 1" and cast bullets are available in lots of weights in diameters between .430" and .446" these days, whatever this one turns out to measure.

Chamber cast and bore slug will tell the tale.

The pictures on gunbroker show a broken upper tang just under the thumb piece of the top lever barrel selector. My guess is that the stock has at one time been broken right through the wrist.

Steve,

Is this caliber a high recoil one?
Thank you for pointing the broken upper tang to me. I did not notice it before. That might be the reason the wood is wrapped in leather, or just to prevent it from happening.

Think of it as an older version of the current 300 grain .45-70 factory loads if you were to load the 11,15x65R to full levels. Recoil ought to be something like the .30-'06 at most, less if you load the 11,15 moderately.

Thanks again, friends.
Serban

Sliver, I have a Sauer drilling that is not marked, but I think it is 11.15X65. I shoot .410s in it. They fit like a glove and the plastic wads seem to protect the rifling from damage. I doubt that the lead shot would do any damage even without this protection. It is a great gun for preserve shooting, shooting the .410 shell first, then switching to two 16 gauge. Right now there is a .44 caliber bullet stuck in there. I foolishly tried to slug the barrel with a hard cast bullet that I though was pure lead. My driller is in very well preserved condition, hammers, side lever to open, Krupp barrels, outrageous European walnut. I need a local gunsmith to remove the bullet because I don't want to foul up the throat trying to remove it myself. I have thought about using brass .410 2 1/2" shells with hand seated bullets. Anyone think that's a good idea?

The doll's head is peened, it appears. The gun apparently has more problems than you would want for the selling price (way below $800 the seller says). I like mine just fine, but would like to find someone in MD or PA to get that bullet out of the throat. I can't sell mine because a good friend sold it to me for $250 and I really do like it.

I foolishly tried to slug the barrel with a hard cast bullet that I though was pure lead. My driller is in very well preserved condition

eightbore:
You're right and this can be a nasty condition. I have had luck in the past driving cast lead bullets out using the largest dowel that will fit and tapping with a mallet. The nice thing about a wooden dowel is it won't damage the rifling.
Jim

Thanks for the idea, but I have already found that a hard oak dowel, regardless of how tight it fits, will shatter and get stuck in the barrel. When I get the broken end of the dowel out, I will go to my next idea.

eightbore:
The reason they use ash and not oak for baseball bats is it will shatter when stressed. You MAY be able to get the broken end of the dowel out with a worm used for removing charges from muzzleloaders and then start over. However; Perhaps someone else has another idea.
Sorry for the rotten luck.
Jim

It will turn out OK, Jim. I once had a Savage Fourtenner stuck in a Parker hammer gun for over a year. I only worked on it about a half hour a month, but finally got it out.

I was also in search of the elusive 11.15x65r for my Sauer hammer drilling and had contacted Steve Meyer of the German Gun Collector Assn. I have included his reply below. I am also posting a picture of the bottom of my barrel that I shared with Steve as well.

Hope the following information helps you.






The 11,15x65R (also noted as 11,15x65,4R) cartridge is an elongated version of the German military 11,15x60R (.43) Mauser round. The .43 Mauser spawned dozens of sporting cartridges of various calibers and lengths and the 65mm version was fairly popular, but it really has no relation to any .450 round. The 62/78 indicates the gauge of the rifle barrel and is usually all that's seen to give any clue as to the chambering - having the explicit "patr(one)" (cartridge) mark is rare. Still, a chamber cast wouldn't hurt. 62.78 gauge translates into .420", which would be the largest diameter rod, in .010" increments, that would fit in the bore. Groove diameter of your rifle barrel will probably be somewhere between .440-.448"

The rest of that cartridge mark shows that it was loaded with black powder (SP = schwartze pulver) and the bullet weight was 17,7 grams (about 273 grains) and plain lead (BL = Blei, or lead).

Unfortunately I don't know of a source for formed 11,15x65R cases. Huntington's lists .44 Sharps basic brass which could be used as a starting point, and I'm pretty certain that judicious use of .43 Mauser dies would result in usable ammo without the expense of having dies custom made. Buffalo Arms is also a good source for unusual brass and advice on BP loading. They don't list the 65mm case, but they do 'stretch' brass and may be able to make some for you.

The .410 works fine for me, and the 2 1/2" brass .410 case just happens to be 65MM long. I haven't tried the Rocky Mountain .410 cases, but they work well in other sizes.

8-b, I have had good luck on stuck bullets with a brass rod. Like wood, won't hurt the rifling. Did you soak in penetrating oil before the oak attack? A 3/8" rod should work - - - just in case you don't have a 13/32" rod laying about. Also, a 13/32" drill with a 1/4" turned shank soldered into a 3/8" rod (steel or brass) and turned slow with lottsa lube (say, with a hand brace) should also take the offending material out.

CH4D makes reloading dies for
http://www.ch4d.com/

11.15x60r Mauser
11.15x64r
11.15x65r LK Express

You might want to give them a call 740-397-7214. I understand that they can make brass, though I do not know the pricing. I believe they have formed 11.15x60r Mauser from .348 Winchester.

I purchased a set of dies for 9.3x82R from them recently. They were easy to deal with.

ASSRA has a reference to this round:
http://www.assra.com/gleanings.htm
"The Elusive 11.15x65R" J.C. Munnell, 9-pp. of reloading for it in three European double rifles, in September, 2004 issue of The Accurate Rifle.

Be sure to do a chamber cast.
http://damascus-barrels.com/files/Damascus-Barrels_dot_com_Cerrosafe_ChamberCast.pdf

Pete

Re kcordell's post above, if I'm remembering correctly the chamber in that drilling was necked and had the typical (.43) Mauser base and rim dimensions of 13mm/15mm respectively.

We haven't gotten word from Silver on his prospective drilling as to whether the chamber is necked or what the base dimensions are, but most of this thread has been leaning toward the other and probably more common 11,15x65R "LK" that has a straight case with base and rim of 11,9mm/13mm respectively.

Dang Germans - too many similar cartridges!

Steve,

Thanks for your help there earlier!! :-)

KC.

Steve,

When I saw that LK on the CH4D website I wasn't sure what cartridge it referred to. So it was the straight walled case. Where there many variations?

Pete

All, this seems to come up periodically so hopefully Dave will save it somewhere.

The brass can be made from 40-90 Sharps basic brass or from 30R Blaser brass. The head diameter is NOT the same as 9.3x74R. That said, you can use "thumper" brass if you are careful and aware of the 11.9 vs 12.1 mm head measurement difference and keep pressures low. A gunsmith friend shared his load with me which calls for 300 grain Hornady XTP pistol bullets. They work nicely in the "Baby 45-70" on all but elk or larger-sized animals. For those I use the 300 gr Swift A-frame pistol bullet. One of these loaded full-blower shot completely through 16 inches of wet phone books and half-way through a 50 lb bag of cracked corn and was found perfectly mushroomed. The 38 caliber XTP's are also very nice in the little 9.3 and much easier to get good groups from than lead; yet they are all soft enough for Henry-type rifling and still give good expansion. If you are leery about using this cartridge on game, consider that 11.15x65 ballistics outclass the .454 Casull by a good bit.

Pete, like many old BP German cartridges, the brass starts short (40mm) and goes on up to the full LK (LanKaster meaning shotgun in Duetche) 65mm Express. I think Dixon shows 5 or 6 variations. It was factory loaded by Utendoerffer, DWM and finally GECO up until WW2.

Good shooting,

C.

The gun sold for $835 or so.
Too many new/unknown things for me to bid on it although I liked the engraving and the side lever setting.
Thank you all for your help.

You didn't miss anything except shooting cheap .410 shells in a neat rifle. You're right, too many issues.

Here it is seven years down the road and, yesterday, I finally got the hard cast bullet out of the bore of my 11.15X65 Sauer. My next step will be to find a soft, store bought bullet to shoot. My wish is to be inventive and shoot those bullets out of plastic .410 shotgun cases sealed with wax or glue. What could be simpler? I do have a few 11.15X65 cartridges, a gift from a friend, but I would rather not use them for shooting. I will try to check back in less than seven years this time.

Eightbore, explore UK's .410 board http://www.fourten.org.uk/ a number of members there have set up .410's with rifled slugs and such. You might find exactly the information you're looking for.

Steve

Thanks.

Another question that has come up is "How do .410 shotshells pattern in heavily rifled bores?". I plan to answer that question also. I have shot my 11.15X65 drilling barrel with .410 skeet loads at skeet targets with good results, but a good 21 yard pattern would be interesting to inspect.

The "latest" is that I have shot the early Sauer driller with the donated loaded ammunition at 50 yards and got a three shot 2" group at center with one forth shot flyer attributed to a 15 pound or more right barrel trigger, which I will try to correct. I cleaned the rifle barrel and came out with a very shiny, heavily rifled 11 MM barrel, after 120 years of shooting and apparently no abuse. A friend refinished and recheckered the wood wit astounding results. A great $250 investment thanks to a friend.

eightbore,
The right shotbarrel trigger that also fires the rifle barrel is likely a single set trigger. To "set" it, push it forward until it "clicks" and then it will have a very light pull weight, some would call it a "hair trigger". If you try this, be sure the drilling is unloaded first, to try the trigger it doesn't need to be cocked. If it doesn't "click" and "hold" forward, it is likely out of adjustment. There should be a small screw behind the trigger. If the trigger won't "hold" when you push it forward(with some force), the screw has likely been turned in too far, sometime in the past trying to adjust the "unset" pull weight. This screw only affects the engagement of the sear in the trigger, itself, and will not adjust the unset pull weight. To adjust the "set" pull, back the screw out, until it will "hold" when pushed forward. Next turn it in, until it "trips" the trigger. Then turn it out 1/2 turn and it is adjusted. Additional fine adjustments can be made , either way, to suit the shooter. Once finally adjusted, you can put a drop of stock finish on the screw, to keep it from moving. This screw is very small, so do not use Loctite or epoxy. If the screw is missing, you will have some trouble buying a new one. If it is broken, you should send it to someone familiar with drillings. As Steve Meyer said earlier, you can make cases from 9.3x74R, but 7x65R will also work. The rim thickness may need to be adjusted. The correct bullet to use, should be determined by "slugging" the barrel.
Mike

Der Ami, it's amazing how much one can learn by listening often enough or long enough. I knew my Sauer probably had a set trigger, but pushing very hard on the back of the trigger without results, produced no click or any other results. I figured that there was not a set trigger, or it was broken. Today, after reading your post again, I tried again, pushed extra hard on the back of the trigger, and it clicked. I guess you're not supposed to use those set triggers in the field. I will head for the range again and will expect about one inch or less at 50 yards with no flyers. The heavy trigger and the fogged glasses from the "mask" has to be good for one inch on the target. When I was a teenager, in the sixties, I took care of a collection that contained a Franz Sodia exposed hammer cape gun with a 9.3x72 barrel and a set trigger. I had very little ammo for that gun and never tried the set trigger. It was a wonderful gun and I shot a bunch of PA pheasants with the shot barrel and never felt handicapped with the single 16 gauge shot barrel. The person who allowed me access to the collection let it be returned to the estate that owned it without my input. I would love to have that gun today. However, my Sauer driller is a much more versatile gun. I will report back.

eightbore,
The set triggers are made to be used in the field, yours may be out of adjustment. You can try turning the screw in a 1/2 turn and see if it helps. This time, you know where you are and can back track, if you have to. I always use a set trigger in the field( if the rifle has one), just don't set it until you are ready to shoot. When set, I don't put my finger on the trigger( I put it on the trigger guard), and when I shoot, I just touch the trigger; after a while, the movement almost becomes automatic. My friend Walter Grass, I often write about him, always said to never set the trigger until ready to shoot, and if you don't shoot, unset it right away. He said it is better to hunt with the safety off and the trigger unset than with the safety on, but the trigger set( of course best is safety on and trigger unset). I don't blame you about the Franz Sodia.
Mike

Recently, during the cleanout of an old gunsmith's estate, the folks doing it found a small bottle of mercury.

Talking to other friends who do a lot of gunsmithing it turns out mercury was the cure for removing jammed bullets. The prescription is to pour a couple drops down the bore to where it will contact the bullet, cover the open end (fumes), place the barrel vertically in a quiet corner such that the mercury is atop the bullet and come back in a week or two. The mercury should dissolve into the lead and soften it sufficiently so the wooden dowel from the other end will be able to push the bullet out.

Good luck finding mercury to use, though.

remember that when the spanish colonized the new world, they focused on finding gold (seven cities of gold in the southwest, etc.) when gold was located, the most efficient means of refining it from the gold containing ore was a method called amalgamation. it consisted of combining the ore with mercury which would leach the gold out of the matrix of the ore by combining and semi-liquifying the gold. then the mercury could be separated from the gold in a second step. the spanish sent ships heavily laden with mercury which was mined in portugal, and got back ships heavily laden with gold. lead is another "heavy metal" which will amalgamate with mercury.

Mercury was often reclaimed from old dismounted thermostats. It would take a lot of them to get much mercury.
Mike