My best has been a Coggie double square bridge Mauser in 318.
That first season with it, due to work I could only hunt the opening weekend(7-10 days?) - opening weekend rained, and rained hard two days straight - the rifle never got out of it's case and I never went back for my buck. The rifle sat for a whole year.
The next year stuff came-up, and could only manage a day or two in the deer woods - this handsome and pricey rifle had become a dust collector in my cabinet. Never again will I put big money into a deer rifle...times are short and your at the mercy of the elements. My rifles now are 22lr and 17Hmr, and as a landowner I can hunt these durning deer season - so who knows!

Actually, I didn't know that any rimfire was legal anywhere to hunt deer, landowner or otherwise. Now when all is said and done, don't you think you should have taken the Mauser hunting?

Not the rifle's fault Lowell - you chose not to use it. Let it get wet, clean it, put it away 'til next time.

Lowell,
All guns are a tool.Master craftsmen have work hardened tools, tools that show the years of wear and the occassional adjustment to make them function a little more efficiently.Your Coggie is not a gun or a tool at the moment.It is a collectors piece and not a very desirable one at that.Get out and use it, you will enjoy the moments and this is not your apprenticeship, it is your life.

I think you are wrong about this,Lowell. First, pride in the weapon you're hunting with is a lot of the joy of hunting. Otherwise, there would be no need whatever for this forum.

Second, why on earth would you even think about using the little rifles on your deer. Sure, they'll kill'em, but not well and not responsibly, and not with the honor the game deserves.

Oh well, your land and your choice I suppose...Geo

Life's too short to shoot an ugly gun.

Few of my guns sit idle, they are either punching hole in critters or paper/clay birds.

That said, many people own high end guns just for pride of ownership or something nice to fondle.

To each his own,

A thutty-thutty is about $200; people will almost give you a sporterized '03. With all the milsurp calibers out there, shotgun slug season, and bowhunting, there must be something big enuf to do the job and cheap enuf to welcome getting wet. You should also be AWOL from work to do it right. And there are guys who have deer-hunted thru more divorce proceedings, layoffs, and similar disasters than you'd care to contemplate. Maybe you're not really a deer hunter?

jack

I said it before, thats like being married to Sela Ward and not doing anything with her for fear of messing up her hair!!!!!

I know these scopeless double sq. bridge Mausers. They're next to useless especially in caliber for which ammo is available from odd ammo makers like Wolfgang Romney,.....They're like cup of coffee from Starbuck's that has long Italian-sounding name. Real deer hunters don't use stuff like that.
If you want classic vintage rifle buy still affordable ole' Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6,5x54 or Savage 99 in .250-3000. Both will come with beautiful rotary magazine.

Wow!! I gotta get out more. Here I've been thinking "real" anything was judged on dedication, ethics, and skill, not the tools they used, clothes they wore, or where they were!! What do "real" deerhunters wear? Where and when do they hunt? Man, I gotta know these things so i can be careful of my associations!! Can you imagine finding yourself in the woods with someone packing a H&H .450-.400 2 3/8"?? Scandelous!!!

First reading - "I bought a pricy rifle and life and the weather conspired against me hunting deer with it for two years running so thisis the rifle's fault somehow and then I sold the pricy rifle and now pack rimfires in the woods and i may shoot a deer with one as the laws don't apply to me as a landowner." Hmmmm!

OK, second reading - "The pricy rifle I spent a load of money on failed to give me a pride of ownership kick, so I sold it and now find myself happy with workhorse rimfires. I believe that, as a landowner, I am allowed to shoot deer with the rifle of my choosing and may well choose one of the RFs. Owning workhorse rifles will make me content for the rest of my life.

Care to sort that out for us??

When you going to come over and shoot some 'real' game with me inseaed of those pesky pigeons Don? The frost is on the ground and the birds are flying!!

I for one an still trying to sort thru this "babblepost" from L G. Just about any rifle caliber is suitable for deer that .25 or greater but NOT the 22LR or 17cal and it doesn't matter whose property your hunting on. The one thing I always appreciated while deer hunting in the Midwest was, when using a 12 ga slug gun, as long as the deer was hit in the vitals death was essentially instantaneous. That's alway been my goal and,I've always assumed, the goal of any responsible hunter.
I think one has to wonder here. Does this guy lay awake nights dreaming up bizarre things to post?
Jim

If any of you guys are planning to cook up a big kettle of Brunswick Stew for the Halloween weekend, you want to be careful not to let the stew on the bottom of the pot get burned. Be sure to invite Lowell over because he is the world champion STIRRER on the internet...Geo

Jager, before my arms and legs started becoming skinny, a German baron's pre-war 7 X 57 sporting Mauser "liberated" at the Rhine by a Canadian RSM and bartered to the regimental chaplain came into my hands. But now it's "the popgun," the 250-3000, one of the most inherently accurate cartridges like the 7mm.

I found the pesky pigeons great fun. However, I'm now being very introspective - - - perhaps, just maybe, I'm not a "real" hunter!!! Dig, it gives me pain to a ask, as I know it will you to hear, this question. Do you have a - - - mmmm, say, Winchester model 24 - - - no, wait, that is too high a grade gun - - - OK, a single barrel with a centrally hung, exposed hammer (no ejector and preferably a broken extractor) gun I can borrow if we get to go hunting again? I'm still not clear on attire and the when and where, but I think I'm getting the gun nailed down!! (Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, it is Friday afternoon and has been a long week!!)

OK, for serious. I may be over in early February. Any activity for real birds in that time frame?

Early February! Dig get your arse into gear and we will go to the Dovey and shoot some Geese and Duck.

The game appreciates being shot with a fine weapon; it's bad karma to give it any less than your best.

Missouri landowners, by law can use rimfire and shot no larger than #4 durning deer season.
The last couple of years, I've small game hunted just to watch over the place as "scandelous" owners do try and jump the fence!
...but hey, if it's their land, they're laird of all they've bought and paid for!
If this bugs you matey...get your own.

One deer rifle?

Break down and buy an inexpensive synthetic stainless Remchester or such. Some plebian cartridge like '06, .270, or .308 will do just fine. Or get one in 7 x 57 or 6.5 x 55 Swede if you like the illusion of boutique. Buy it 2nd hand for around $400. Then spend more than you think you should on a rock-solid bulletproof mount....and afix a Vari-X III.

You'll horrify your highbrow friends. The plastic fantastic will frighten rain clouds away - guaranteeing you nicer hunting weather for the .318.

Sam

I agree with Lowell. I use a stainless synthetic Browning A-bolt.
It lets you hunt, not worry about a pretty gun.

What's all this about the weather bothering a pretty gun? That's silly.

The general purpose hunting rifle I've used for the better part of two decades now for pigs, deer, elk, and bear is a nice, pre-war, medium bore British double rifle. It's been rained and snowed on countless times, as well as dusty and muddy as hell. It keeps my freezers full, and still looks as good as it did when I bought it. It's only necessary to clean it properly before putting it away when I get home.

"These guns were made to shoot in all weather," so said the ol'goat of SSMBBS.
After taking delivery of his brand new David McKay Brown guns, and as he shot them in the land of their birth - there was no mirth...rain spoiled the lot of 'em!
True story boys, as told by his self.

I remember Lou. He'd be right if he had to prove himself wrong. Probably put the paste wax on himself and forgot the guns.

jack

T'was him, and it was him that got me booted for a poem of his woe. His "Scottish Queens, weren't so ducky" as it went.

If you've ever had a rain-soaked walnut stocked rifle shift its POI 6" at 100 yds you would appreciate synthetics. I used to diligently verify POI before every hunting season - or trip. This ritual inevitably led to needed corrections. I continued the drill for years after I was using synthetic stocks on 700s and 77s. It dawned on me that I had never needed to make any adjustments (like 6 different rifles). So I no longer check them.....unless they've been dropped. Heresy, I suppose.

Stainless advantages vs blued steel are far, far less important - if they're matter at all. BTW, stainless will rust.

Veering OT, I've never been much of a Weatherby rifle person, but my son's 5.75# Mk5 UL .243 WCF is a .75 MOA gun.......even groups 70 and 100 gr bullets in the same place! I've never seen anything like it.

I still enjoy taking my '06 Model 54 with peep into the woods. If I use the G&H side-mounted Hensoldt its a 1.25 MOA gun.....all day. Not bad for 1934.

Sam

If POI shifted because the stock was "rain soaked", then it wasn't finished properly to begin with. I always made sure otherwise back when I was using bolt stuff, so never had that happen.

Double rifles don't shift POI anyway, at least I've never heard of one doing so.

I agree 400 NE. All of my rifles are glassbedded and floated with a min. of .050 clearance around the barrel. No problems here with wood giving me an issue. I love hunting with a fine burly wooded gun, life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. We are just care takers anyhow. I doubt if anyone stands over my casket complaining about the way I took care of my guns. Besides, I am unaware that I have damaged any by hunting with them. As far as rimfires and deer and your own ground. Well, I am hunting my own Ohio ground, just wouldn't think anywhere it would be legal to take deer with a rimfire. For me, it does kind of feel unethical. But then again, I won't use one for that purpose. Heck, I see old Mausers in military form all the time for under $100. Makes them kind of a throw away gun. IMHO. Sorry though, I do have a very strong weakness for nicely customized 03's and Mauser'98's. I wonder if that is why I have so many? How many is too many? Don't know, haven't got that many yet.

My go to rifle is $500 clunker CZ550 9.3x62 scoped with stupendous new 30mm 1.5-6x42 Kahles 'Helia'. The scope was more expense then the rifle and that's the way it should be. The 232gr slug takes care of smaller game and 286 grainers are for the heavy stuff. Designed ca. 1906 it's still very efficient round and one of the best mid-bore calibers to 250yrds. out there.

Sadly, there's no such thing as an inexpensive (sub-$1k) properly finished bolt action hunting rifle. My POI story involved a M77 Ruger. I certainly agree that glass bedding works. However, synthetic stock versions of domestic bolt guns are less expensive than their walnut stocked counterparts. Factor in the added cost/time of a glass bedding job, and I can see no reason not to go with the ultimate glass bedded stock, ie., the synthetic stock. Its not like sub-$1k walnut stocked rifles come with knockout wood, anyway.

If you want a really nice walnut stock and custom rifle, by all means glass bed the thing. But I'm still not one to take such a gem out in really nasty weather.

I'm trying to imagine a double rifle worth more than my F-350 living for months at a time under the back seat........can't see it.

Sam

I like my model 71 Winchester Deluxe. The long tang version comes to the shoulder like a shotgun. I've owned both long and short tang rifles. Every dimension looks the same to me but the long tang just feels diffrent. The .348 cartridge is a real thumper and has taken a few big Maine bucks. I'm lucky in that mine will shoot 1 1/2" off of bags. Any other rifle I take with me is just a backup,I love it.

6 boxes of Remington .348 ammo have come my way but they're all 150 gr. loads. My thinking is why 150 gr. loads in a .348, isn't the reason for a .348 to use heavier bullets?ANyway, now I have to find a M71 to shoot that ammo....

Tanky, have you ever shot 150 gr. loads in your M71? How do they group?

Thanks, Rob

No more comments about the common American till you get a 99 and head out in the rain.

We have a deer problem (too many) in our little town due to urban encroachment into their normal habitat and feeding by certain misguided souls.

The city authorizes removal of 75-150 deer per year by state game and fish hired shooters.

Weapon of choice...22 rim fire.

The "Classic" eastern woods deer rifle! My 1942 99RS with a G&H mounted scope in .300 Savage.

Missouri allows resident landowners to hunt small game with rimfire ammunition during deer season without a permit. As a purported landowner, LG knows or should know that deer may be taken by "Any legal method:...[including]"handgun or rifle firing centerfire ammunition" 3 CSR 10-7.431(C) The regs further provide that resident landowners do not need a deer permit to hunt deer on their land. There is no provision for anyone to hunt deer with rimfire rifles.

Missouri has a proud tradition of responsible gun ownership and land stewardship. Since the 1930's, the Missouri Department of Conservation has been at the vangard of promoting habitat and wild game restoration and restoring hunting privileges as game such as deer and turkey became re-established in sufficient numbers.

skatr2

Recoil Rob, I have a box of 150 Gr Remingtons also. I don't know how they shoot. No 150 gr jacketed .348's are made today to experiment with but I'm sure they are fine for deer. The normal weight is 200grs. Cartridge collectors may be more interested in the ammo than hunters. I have a small supply of Win silvertips that I use and when they are gone it will be the Hornaday 200's in reloads. I've heard that 71's generally shoot 6" groups and the previous one I owned shot just that. My long tang shoots good.

great pictures grogel,my father in law used to hunt the catskills with a 99 in 358 Win (silver tips)
Rob and tanky I like those early long tang 71's as well,here are a couple pics of a buck I shot with mine a few years ago,its a pre war 71.

That's why I quit wasting money on them years ago. Real quality has always been expensive and any expectation that it be otherwise is fantasy. Your point is well taken though. In today's world, it takes expedients like synthetic to make cheap work, after a fashion.



Hell, it's worth more than my 4WD, too, but what I can't imagine is leaving ANY gun in a vehicle for months. I've had vehicles stolen. Not smart to lose a gun along with it. I don't even leave my .45 in mine.

How about posting a picture of your, and I think we're talking about a 400 nitro express double rifle here?
I'd like to see it!

Quote
"Sadly, there's no such thing as an inexpensive (sub-$1k) properly finished bolt action hunting rifle."

I have to take exception to this statement. My Ruger 77s have performed vey well as my principal big game hunting rifles over the years. Are they in the same league as a custom built rifle?
Of course not but they'll deliver 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards all day long and this is more than adequate for a hunting rifle. I doubt if any "proper finishing" would improve on this.
My first Remington 1100,which is the epitome of a mass produced shotgun, cost under $200 when I bought it years ago brand new. Is it in the same class as a hand fitted double old or new? Of course not but none of the trap or skeet targets broken with it seem to know the difference.
I own and shoot older hand crafted doubles because I enjoy the link with the past and the workmanship that went into their assembly. If all I cared about was killing the most game possible or breaking as many targets as I could I'd use an 1100 exclusively.
Jim

1-1-1/2" groups is pretty much standard for any properly made factory rifle these days, but that's the key, "properly made". If you get one that measures up to Rem., Win., Rug., or CZ's own specs and properly mount a scope on it of sufficient power you should be able to get 1-2" groups with factory ammo. I have lever guns that shoot that well as well as a Browning BPS with a slug bbl that will do under 2".

All the other bells and whistles is part of pride of ownership. I like bells and whistles...

I love those pictures of the old hunters and their 99s & 94s.

The Savage 1899 is among best repeating rifles ever made. With fully loaded rotary magazine it balances very well. I have 1949 vintage EG .300 and it's a gem. Even today it is amazingly modern looking rifle. Federal Cartridge makes excellent 180gr spitzer SP in .300, so be sure to check them out.

I've never posted pictures on the internet and don't know how. The rifle I'm referring to isn't my .450/.400. It's a William Evans .400/.360 2 3/4" Nitro Express.

I have a Austrian made Voere 30:06 with a Swarovski 3X9 thats been sitting in the back of the safe since I quit deer hunting 6 or 7 years ago; its keeping my Winchester model 100 with 2X7 Redfield Widefield thats been back there for about 15 years company...Dust collectors yea..but how many shotguns can you own...and Id have to fill those slots with something dont ya know...might as well be some guns that hold memories..

I have to agree with Italiansxs. I have an older model Ruger 77 that I handload for, that groups sub MOA at 100 yds. I took the stock off years ago. Stripped it, slimmed it down some, and refinished it. Hunted it in some terribly inclement weather without it changing it's POI. It shot well before I modified it. IMO, I just improved it to more my liking.

It's definately not custom, but it's generally my "go to" gun, over my semi-custom rifles. Not much "wow" factor, but I'm serious about my elk and deer hunting, and know that this gun will get the job done.

Reality strikes here. I like custom made beautifly finished guns of all types particularly esquisite doubles. However from a practical perspective the mass produced hunting firearms from Winchester,Remington, Ruger etc. will get the job done day after day and not require your mortgaging your house to acquire one.
That's assuming you could still get a mortgage!
Lets hope these examples of Amerincan practicality will always be available so the common man can afford to hunt.
Jim

Something that may help. I bought a mint .250 Ruger Model 77 from a person I did not know but he seemed trustworthy. It wouldn't group four inches at 100 yards. I was more disappointed in the young man than the rifle. I tried a dozen different combinations of powder and bullet with little improvement.

Live and learn. Out of the blue months later, driving home in my half-ton , I remembered a gunwriter somewhere describing the importance of tightening the bolt that angles up under the magazine cover. Bingo! The kid who thought he was unloading a palooka sold me a MOA tackdriver.

I had a Savage 99 in 250 Savage at one time and have always regretted selling it. A collector kept pestering me as it was a "EG" grade,built in the early 50s and in virtually brand new condition. I never hunted with it but it was very accurate and probably the slickest working lever action I ever owned.
Jim

EG's were a popular grade, I believe the most popular in the lineup. I'd be happy to find one in that condition today for less than $1K. It's the ones that get away we remember.

In distant past I had Winchester 88 and Sako 'Finnwolf' both in cal. .308W, but I much prefer the more affordable EG .300Sav now in my safe. Great guns and the ones with cartridge counter plus rotary magazine are true gems of repeater market.
PS. Be sure to check out two part article on Arthur W. Savage the man most responsible for creaton of this gem of a rifle.
It can be found in Precision Shooting October 2007, November 2007.

Was that the poem that ended "And I donna ken where yee been, Laddy, but I see you won First Prize"!!

Huum- reminds me. I have a spare Leupold Vari-X-111 in 3.5 x 10 x 40mm with range finder Boone/Crockett- also a set of 2 pc. Buehler steel ring mounts for same- perhaps I should be looking for a pre-64 (prefer pre-1952 with the original single hook cut rifling-and only a 24" barrel Std. Grade- in some "new to me" caliber, to mount that scope on- Leupold & Stevens 100% stand behind every product-no questions asked on return for repair or replacement. Only rifle I will want to own will be a 98 long extractor Mauser style, only scope I would ever buy used, even sight unseen, would be a Leupold, do to their great warranty.

You know it depends on the type of hunting that you do. If you do gentleman hunts like driven pheasants, or deer blind/stand hunting, you can take a nice gun out and it is no different than going to the range, but if you hunt ducks in a swamp, chase chukar up a talus slope, spot and stalk deer in the rim rock, You will get scratches on your gun. So why beat a nice gun?
Fine guns were ment to be show pieces and not really day to day hunting tools. Despite what some may say. I heard the story of actor Larry Hagman taking his brand new FAMARS out in a blinding rainstorm for a duck hunt. Why? just to say you can? The synthetics that I have show wear less than do my wood models and they do hold their zero better than the wood stocked rifles. Fine guns are to be admired, but I have yet to see one next to a 190" mule deer in Eastman's Hunting Journal. The top hunters in the world use modern equipment, not pretty guns.

Can't agree with you there Improved, fine guns are there to be admired and used and as for synthetic stocks I think they are an abomination, each to his own, regards, Mike

I'm with you there Mike- Synthetic stocks for civilian use (not Spec. Ops. or SWAT) compared to fine walnut-inletted and checked by Al Linden or Tom Schelhammer or Jerry Fischer- are like your St. Pauli girl with silicone implants- "Ain't nothin' like the real deal" RWTF