I know it's a bit OT, but there seems to be a lot of knowledge on this board when it comes to Model 12s. I picked up a Model 12 Skeet gun in 16 gauge this weekend. The gun looks just like a 12 gauge skeet gun I've seen, and the receiver is marked SKEET below the serial number on the bottom, and the receiver and barrel serial #'s match. The gun was for sale with a group of other guns I looked at, Rem. 1100's, a 760 rifle, some junker 22's and junker belgian hammer guns. This was the only gun that caught my interest, even though I'm a SxS guy. The gun has a solid rib, and a Cutts Compensator (which I know isn't great for the value) The other negative is that it's got a 13 1/2 LOP with a recoil pad, but the wood has nice figure and I can just through a slip-on pad on when I want to shoot it. The stock is solid with just light some finish wear, but no cracks or damage, and good checking. The blue is very nice, probably 95%. So, is this gun rare. I bought it just because it was a 16 gauge, which I love, and the price seemed good. I'm looking forward to getting out and shooting it, but Im also curious about what anyone can tell me about it. Thanks for any info. anyone can provide.

I won't even approach the question of Cutts factory origin since I'm waiting to find out for myself on a 12 ga skeet grade, but will say this: there are a lot of takeoff and aftermarket stocks for m12s out there reasonably priced and it's such a simple bolt-on changeout. Failing that, Brownell still has the rubber donuts which can be faired in between stock and pad to get the length right and you have something attractive and original at least back to the wood stretcher. Enjoy!

jack

Why is this OT? What we have here is classic American gun that is better built then many SxS clunkers discussed here.
Not sure how rare this gun variation is, but it would be more rare if it was marked 'Skeet' and had plain ribless barrel.
I can't imagine too many amigos wanted 16ga skeet gun with plain hollow tube.
Being a simple-mided sod I wouldn't mind finding one of them minimalist Mod 12 'Featherweights'. Extra parts and features just confuse me.

Not really OT- The Cutts Comp. was developed in the late 1920's by USMC Col. Cutts- initially for the 1921-A-1 Thompson SMG- to counter-act muzzle rise and torque when firing, and the Lyman Gunsight Co. of Middlefield Cobb. bought the production rights for shotguns- right about the time Skeet became a popular clays sport. If the Cutts was factory installed- there will be no choke markings stamped on the barrel with the other I.D.- and if the rib was also factory, the WP in the circle will be offset to aprox 9 o'clock in that same area-instead of at Top Dead Center on the barrel and receiver. I don't like the bulk of the Cutts, but they do develop great patterns, and for skeet and upland, where you are "out in the open" no problem. I'm not a 16 gauge man (traded a M12 field 16 recently for a M12 3" Mag) but a 16 and a 20-same barrel, stock, etc- will weigh within a few ounces of each-as they are on the same receiver--- I have no idea what you paid for this fine M12- but if you aren't too fussy about the "Muzzle Pickles" sometimes you can get a good field gun for low $-case in point- Friday last I found 6 M12's in used rack- I bought a 1924 Model 12- nickle steel barrel with solid rib- originally marked Full- full sized "perch belly style" stock and original buttplate-but with a Deluxe vented PolyChoke- Dealer let me test fire it- ran a full box of AA's through it, adjusting the choke and watching for pattern and impact as well as full cycling multiple rounds- 100%- all patterns were true and centered- about 60% above aim point- and the Poly clicked, indexed and locked "right on the money" Without the solid rib (scarce on Model 12's, I love them) I would have passed, but the rib "overcomes the muzzle bulge" for me-and I bought it for $250 cash money plus tax.- You might want to check all the tubes for patterning, also the threads-make sure you don't cross thread them-special wrench and WD-40 or same lube the SC guys when they change tubes- Enjoy your Model 12-best repeater ever made-anywhere IMO- RWTF

Good info above. I'll just add that Cutts spreader tubes (all gauges) generally pattern a bit tighter than WS1, not quite so tight as WS2 and mod factory Winchester constrictions.

Cutts guns don't seem to be as annoying to skeet squads as they can be for trap squads - for the obvious reason that skeet shooters can stand back.

Sam

Ray: What kind of forend does it have, and are the stock and forend checkered? Is there a choke marking on the barrel? How long is the barrel to the start (back end) of the Cutts? TT

I'm thumbing through my Winchester catalogues, and the 16-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun disappears between the 1951 and an October 1952 catalogue. In 1954 the "Winchester Special Ventilated Rib" (Simmons Rib) became available on the 12-, 20-, and 28-gauge Model 12 Skeet guns. Prior to that only the 12-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun was offered with the real "Winchester Ventilated Rib", while the 12-, 16-, 20-, and 28-gauge Skeet Guns came with a solid rib. In the January 1955 one could still get the solid rib Model 12 Skeet Gun in 12-, 20- or 28-gauge, In the large 1955 Winchester catalogue one could get the newly offered Super Field in 16-gauge with a solid rib and skeet choke, but the skeet choke offering in the Super Field is gone by the revised to September 1955 catalogue. In the big 1955 catalogue the Model 12 Skeet Gun was only offered in 12-, 20-, and 28-gauge with the "Winchester Special Ventilated Rib."

Prior to WW-II, one could get a 12-, 16-, or 20-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun with a plain barrel and a Cutts Compensator attached. The Cutts body could be blued steel, aluminium alloy bright or aluminium alloy blacked. Post WW-II from 1946 to 1954, one could get a 12-gauge Model 12 Skeet Gun with a plain barrel with a forged shoulder on the end that was threaded and the Cutts body screwed onto this shoulder. I don't find smaller gauge Cutts offered after the War, and I don't ever find the Cutts offered on a ribbed barrel either solid or vent. That said, Riffle shows on page 139 a Model 12 28-gauge Winchester Special vent rib, factory Cutts equipped Pigeon Grade, and on page 168 a 16-gauge Pigeon Grade with a Winchester Special Ventilated rib and a Cutts

Researcher- you know your Model 12's. Right on-most accurate. I have the Riffle book also-he spent a lot of time on it, as did Roger Rule with the Model 70. One thing I have wondered, at the ending of his book, Dave visited with Roy Rogers-and supposedly saw a Model 12 Pigeon Grade that was once owned by Clark Gable-and Clark must have had a rotten day at the trap-if indeed he sold it to Roy for a dime. Makes those stories about a $50 Parker GH 28 gauge at a garage sale seem-well-whatever!! Great write up- RWTF!!

Your gun sounds like the one I have, Ray. Typical for the 16 gauge skeet gun to have a solid rib. I have a Weaver screw in choke system on my 16 gauge, solid rib, skeet gun. But if you shoot skeet with this gun, you might find as I have that the Cutts is thought of as a pretty neat thing to have. Several of the people at my club have them on their Model 12s and people seem to like them.

Researcher must have missed page 49 in the 1954 large catalog where choke devices of many brands are offered in the three large gauges, and the Cutts is offered in all gauges, 12 to .410 including the 28. The same offerings are priced in the smaller price catalog. Actually, Researcher is correct in mentioning that all Cutts offerings in the Model 12 end at the printing of the 1955 catalog. However, choke devices are still available on special order after 1954, but not mentioned in catalogs. I have a vent rib 12 gauge Skeet made in 1959 with factory Cutts, no choke mark, and fully documented as factory by the box label. The plain barrel Cutts guns with forged boss is rare but exists in 28 gauge, is scarce in 20 gauge and pretty common in 12 gauge. I saw two at the Chantilly VA show this weekend. I have not seen small gauge ribbed guns with "no choke marking", don't know if they were made that way for factory choke device installation. Oddly, Model 42 Skeet Grade with factory Cutts continued to be offered long after Model 12 Cutts guns were deleted from the catalog. At this time, Cutts equipped Model 42s with "no choke markings" are being faked because of their rarity in factory original persuasion. A local shooter had one faked up but, fortunately, a careful buyer would detect the fakery. I have seen more than one that would pass inspection. Careful.

Actually Bill I don't have the large 1954 catalogue. I have the large Winchester catalogue date February 2, 1950, a large Wincheter catalogue with an October 15, 1952, cover letter, and the large 1955. The one with the 1952 cover letter has the Shotgun Muzzle Devices page. While it doesn't say so, it does picture each of the devices on plain barrels. I looked and looked for that page yesterday and missed it. Had begun to think I was remembering a Remington catalogue.

Thanks for the great responses and the wealth of information. Two Triggers, the forend and pistol grip are checkered, and the pattern and shape of the wood and checkering look identical to a 12 gauge skeet model I've seen, so I'm confident the wood is correct. Run with the Fox, the Winchester proof mark is offset, as you describe. The one issue I see is that the barrel is marked WS-1 for choke, so I guess the Cutts was added after the gun was purchased. Oh well, I'm not in the gun for too much money, and it will be fun to shoot, even if the Cutts was added latter. Now I have to locate more choke ends for the Cutts, it came with only a modified. Again, thanks for the responses !!!!!

Skeet Grade Model 12s in high original condition except for an aftermarket Cutts are the best values on the repeating shotgun market. They shoot great, look good, last a lifetime, and sell for very low prices.

In my 1942 Remington catalogues, they offer the Cutts fitted to Sportsman, Model 11 and Model 31 in 12-, 16-, or 20-gauge with plain, matted rib or ventilated rib barrels. In the 1947 catalogue it is only offered on plain barrels.

Remington also offers the Poly-Choke on these guns but only with plain barrels. "The Remington "Sportsman," Model 11 and New Improved Model 31 shotguns in 12, 16 and 20 gauges are now available with the new Aero-dyne Super Poly Choke built in at the Remington factory. The Poly Choke is made to specifications of the Poly Choke Company but is integral (made in one piece) with the barrel and cannot possibly come loose. This device gives varying degrees of choke in one gun. It is instantly adjustable from true cylinder to full choke by a mere twist of the sleve. The barrel is plain, without rib, and is 28" long including the Poly Choke. Not furnished in any other length or with solid or ventilated rib."

By the October 1950 catalogue the Cutts is offered fitted to vent rib Sportsman 48 and Model 870 shotguns and the Poly choke is offered fitted to Model 870, Model 11-48 and Sportsman 48 with plain barrels only. No more mention of being made integral with the barrels.

aERO-DYNE-?? Huum. Didn't Chrysler or Nash or Hudson have a series of cars back at that same time called Aero-Dyne. If I ever were to write a book on Winchesters (I am not going to) but if so, I'd sure as heck hire you-Researcher- just as James Michener and Thomas Harris pay good $ for accurate and detailed info that can be verified- like old Casey "Stinky" Stengal once said, re baseball stats- "Hey, you can always go look it up in the book somewhere" Trick is-knowing the right book.!!

Even with choke marked barrel that thingy may still be factory installed job. The only way to tell for sure is to look at end label of original cardboard box. I found that original box does help in sale of just about any firearm. Gun folks luv cardboard.

My Remi book has Remington Special Long Range 'Aero-dyne' Polychoke was available since ca. 1940.

When I was in the Remington archives, I found the original drawings for Cutts installations on Model 11-48 barrels. It didn't do me a lot of good to copy those drawings, however, because the 11-48 and the later Models 58, 870, and 1100 were produced without choke marks on Cutts guns, like the Winchesters were. Like always, though, those drawings were copied and are in my files if anyone would like to look. Yup, the Airflow Chrysler, a real chick magnet.

The Chrysler was an Airflow from 1934 to 1937, a bit ahead of their times. The DeSoto was also made in the Airflow series. In 1949 to 1951 it was the Nash Airflyte.

I'm sure that Researcher has a full file of the Ed Zern Nash Airflite ads to post. We'll be looking forward to them.

I'm sure that Researcher has a full file of the Ed Zern Nash Airflyte ads to post. We'll be looking forward to them. One ad is a clue to why Nash went down the tubes. It says the new Nash gets 25 to 30 miles on a tank of gas!!

Ray, does yours have a pistol grip or a straight grip? Mine has a straight grip.

Wonder if he'll tell us the "Zernian" Western Union story. F&S sent Ed Zern up to Alaska to interview and do a write-up on Frank Dufresne- Ed wrote it up, turned it into his boss- who came back and said- "Ed-you forgot to include Frank's age-we've already gone over $ on this, just send him a short Telegram- So Ed sent this "How Old, Frank?" to which Frank Dufrense replied- "Old Frank just fine, how you Ed?""RWTF

Jimmy W, mine has a pistol grip. Ray