doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Beware of dealing with Gary Downey at Osprey Arms

I had a rather unfortunate experience purchasing a shotgun from Gary Downey at Osprey Armes. This is a bit long, but I want to include exactly what happened.

A listing came up for a 20ga Sauer shotgun on GI. I emailed the dealer, Osprey Arms, saying, "If the gun is in original condition, I'll take it." I didn’t negotiate the price because these little guns go fast. Mr Downey called the next day, and assured me the gun was entirely original except “The barrels MIGHT have been re-blacked," but he wasn't sure. I told him that was OK and sent a check.

Long after the check cleared, it was brought to my attention that Mr Downey had purchased the gun at auction and refinished the entire thing! The pictures from the auction listing (see links below) show rusted/pitted barrels. Cracked wood in multiple places, along with missing wood on the for-end. A severely dented left barrel at the muzzle and gouges and scratches in the stock. The finish had turned to a "Dull Silver," per the auction house's description. Mr. Downey not only knew the barrels had been refinished, he paid to have them done along with the rest of the gun!

When I called and told him what I had discovered, he immediately began yelling at me! A liar gets angry when you discover the truth. And boy, was he angry! I later told him that in 40 years of collecting, I had never been yelled at (or lied to) by a dealer before. He apologized for yelling and said, "We will work something out."

Well, he ignored me for the next few months. I finally sent him an email telling him I wanted to return the gun and to make sure he reimbursed me for the return shipping. He agreed and asked me to send the tracking information.

(I'll gladly provide our email correspondence.)

I shipped the Sauer and didn't hear from him for several weeks. I sent another email, and he eventually replied and decided to dig in his heels. He sent several bizarre, rambling rants questioning my knowledge and collecting acumen, basically telling me it was my fault for getting burned, and said, "Sorry, but you bought a used gun!" He is correct; I bought a used gun, a used gun that he assured me had most of its original finish!

I understand the three-day inspection period had long passed. But when an expert like Gary Downey outright lies about a gun he's selling, that's something else entirely! Whoever refurbished the gun did an excellent job. Unfortunately, it's worth about 1/3 less than what I paid.

I get it. It's my fault for not having the gun checked out. I just assumed there wouldn't be any issues when dealing with a 40-year-old company like Osprey Arms. Unfortunately, my eyesight is slowly going away, and I rely more and more on dealers to be honest about what they have.


We must speak up when dealers misrepresent what they are selling! I started collecting when you didn't have to worry much about fakes and refurbished guns. Nowadays, some experts are even getting fooled.

Below are links to the auction house and the original Osprey Arms listing for the Sauer. Unlike most dealers on Guns International, Mr Downey did not mention that the gun had been completely refinished. He has ruined a hobby I have loved for a long time.

It takes years to build a good reputation, but only minutes to lose one.

Sorry for the bad news,

Pete


Link to the Sauer at Eldreds Auction house:

https://www.eldreds.com/auction-lot/*-j.p.-sauer-sohn-side-by-side-shotgun-early-20_CA8418CA75

Link to the Sauer at Osprey Arms:

http://www.ospreyarms.com/product/j-p-sauer-20-gauge/

No Ed, this should stay up. It is honest information about a clearly deceptive listing. It can be clearly documented that gun was refinished and that was not in the description or answered correctly when a direct question was asked to the dealer. And any dealer who has been dealing in high grade guns as long as he has knows. He may decide to ignore or pretend but he knows. Would be interesting to know who the winning bidder was. I am not saying this dealer was the auction buyer but who knows.

I do know high end dealers, who would have very little problem showing you if a gun has been restored. If the blue under the fore end is even in color with the rest I think refinish. Wear in hidden places is expected. If the stock and metal gun has zero dents, nicks or scratches after 50-100 years I think refinish. If edges are not crisp I think refinish. If it looks too good then I become much more careful. Still this is a beautiful gun and one I would be happy to own and shoot. Guns are just not investments, they are to be used and enjoyed in my lifetime.

Eightbore, you can cut and paste the line for a quick search. Came right up for me that way.

Agree here, John. If it was weeks or maybe months later, it's too late to bit ch about bad news. I have the feeling there's a lot more to this story. There needs to be definitive proof Osprey had the gun redone, not just hearsay. My opinion: the gun was grossly overpriced at $15K, and even at $10K not a good buy, more like a $6500 gun afaic. Not judging, just saying, but buyer's remorse can pull out a lot of animas.
JR

I sold a double to a dealer in PA. It was a shooter, not collector gun with wear and most of the finish worn away. About a year later I saw the same gun listed for sale on his website. Description was mint, almost un-fired, highly collectable condition and very rare to find in such condition. But you could not see the serial number so was not 100% certain it was in the fact the same gun. So I called and asked about the gun. When given the serial number to confirm date of manufacture it was my old gun. I asked about it being refinished and was told in no uncertain terms it was not. "All factory finish." Then I asked him if remembered me selling him that same gun about a year ago. Crickets. I then asked him if he wanted a couple photos of the before refinished gun? Crickets and then dial tone. That dealer was not the same as the one here but when you hear high condition, you need to be very skeptical and consider few nice things go unused for decade after decade. I am sorry for the buyers loss and think it should be a tail of caution for us all.

Daryl, I doubt that the two posters I questioned are referring to Tom Gibbons. I would guess that the dealers I am asking about are alive and well. I don't see the harm in naming the dealers in question if the stories are true, which I assume they are.

I once found an Ithaca 28 at a low price that lacked photos of the flats and water table. This was a large dealer on GB. I asked about pictures and they made no bones that they couldn't take them because the gun was modified so that you couldn't remove the barrels. In the ad they alluded to work done in a manner that made me suspect that was the case. They updated the ad to reveal the situation. I wanted to buy the gun because I believed I knew what the problem was, and I could repair it. I bid up to a point about half of a repaired value. It finally went to a rather notorious dealer at about what it would be worth after repair. A month later, it appeared on his site at a price about twice what any reasonable person would pay.

These people irk me because they take useful or desireable guns out of the market, add them to the 1000-2000 guns they are trying to market and which they never sell, so that collectors may not have access to them for years to come.

I often think that if the inventory of around 10 dealers I am familiar with were to come to market all at the same time at true market prices, the double gun market would collapse.

Feel the noose tightening ed?

The thing I find most surprising is how willing a dealer is to soil their reputation
or throw away a long time business relationship for a few bucks in their pocket today.

"The Nutmeg State". An interesting historical anecdote. Oh well, if the shoe fits...

Absolutely laughable Ed.

Just out of curiosity, what are your reasons for thinking it is inappropriate and should be censored?

I think it is good to hear this. I might see him at a gun show. But, let's hear the whole story. I think that he has a right to tell it.

Sorry to hear this. Pretty brazen.

I want to know who refinished the gun ...

OWD

Upland 28.

Just wondering. Once you got the gun from Osprey, how long was it until you notified them that you were unhappy with the purchase?

John
Arrieta

eightbore, I am guessing on who the Pennsylvania and notorious dealers are. Probably won't get much reply from them as they are dead .