doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - A few Questions about my Francotte

I picked this up today and I thought I would share it and maybe you can help me with a few questions I have. It is a 12 gauge extractor gun and I was told it was a model 18. 2 3/4 chambers. Both barrels say '18.4 choke 18.3', so if I'm reading it correctly, it only has .1 mm of choke which is something between skeet and cylinder. I'm fairly new to this stuff but isn't it a bit odd that both barrels are the same? Serial number is 28032 which according to the serial number list would put it at 1897 or post 1989, neither of which seems right. Can anyone tell me what year it was made?

Besides a few buggered screws and some normal age it is in fantastic shape; the barrels have almost perfect bluing. It amazes me the amount of gun and the quality of workmanship you can get with old an SxS without spending a lot of money.

Chawk,

I'm sorry to be so late in replying but I'll tell you what I can about your gun. Francotte 28032 appears in the first book of inventory and sales (marked Volume 1) at Von Lengerke & Detmold in New York City. This book was begun in 1900. The store opened for business in 1889 but, to my knowledge, there are no earlier VL&D records in existence. It appears that the current inventory in the store was entered in Vol.1 at that time although no dates of acquisition were recorded. The earliest date associated with your gun is June 25, 1900 when it was sent to Stark & Mickesse (?) for a possible sale. That being said your serial number of 1897 could be correct. Your gun remained in inventory at VL&D from then until 1907 when it was sold to a buyer whose name was recorded as "R.M. Bull" on March 26, 1907. During the time that it was in the VL&D inventory it was sent to at least two other firearms dealers for possible sale at those locations. VL&D was a retail firearms dealer but they also imported firearms from manufacturers in Europe and n sold some to other retail outlets.

The earliest VL&D records contain only minimal information about each firearm. Francotte 28032 is recorded as a Grade No.2 model in 12 gauge, weighing 7 lbs., 6 ounces, with 30 inch barrels and a drop @ heel of 2 and 3/8 inches. The model name No.2 was assigned by VL&D and was not a Francotte model name.

As for the Model No.2, a VL&D catalog describes the gun is as follows:

The Model No.2 is a Hammerless side by side shotgun with an Anson & Deeley style boxlock action, in 12 gauge with Damascus or Siemen-Martin steel barrels, a Quadruple-fast action (double under-bolt, Greener cross-bolt and dolls head extension rib), Purdey style fore-end, checkered sidelock shaped side panels, automatic top safety, Intercepting sears, weighing about 6 ½ pounds with 28 inch barrels and 7 to 8 pounds with 30 inch barrels, all grips with 2 ¼ to 3 inch drops, somewhat finer finish than the grade No. 1. The retail price of the No.2 was $100.00 (1900).

In 1900 a price of $100 would have been quite a bit of money for most folks so it is easy to understand why it took at least 7 years to find a home. Of the 46 model No. 2 guns on the page only about 6 were sold to private buyers by VL&D during 1900.

Your gun appears to be in fine cosmetic condition and I wish you years of enjoyment owning and using it.

Bob Beach (retired)

(Information courtesy of Griffin & Howe, Inc)

Great info.

Good to see you posting, Bob. I hope you're doing well.

Gregg

Drew,

I believe that you are correct in identifying the Lettre Annale as indicating 1926. But I just realized that the owner says that the barrels are 26 inches in length. Since the VL&D record book shows clearly that the gun arrived with 30 inch barrels and the catalogs indicate that the Model No. 2 was made with only 28 or 30 inch barrels, I wonder if it is possible that the owner returned the gun to Francotte in the mid-1920's to be re-barreled with shorter barrels? I believe that the mark of the rampant lion over PV as a nitro proof mark began to be used on civilian arms in 1903 and the fraction of a gram in barrel weight was discontinued in 1924. Both would support the mid-1920's manufacture of the barrels. Whichever, it is a nice looking Francotte.

Bob Beach