doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - The pros and cons of light 12s

Six pound 12-gauge doubles aren't common, but a few do exist. Lincoln Jeffries' guns comes to mind, the occasional Lindner-Dailey, as well as the Thomas Turner Lightweights. What differentiates them all from the classic 2-inch 12s is the fact that they were built for the then-standard 2 1/2-inch shotshell. They're certainly not something you'd go shoot trap with (as most are thin-tubed, & with even thinner wrists). Where I'd expect they might excel is in the grouse woods where the days are full of walking w/o much shooting. They're all getting pretty old and fragile now (depending on how they've been kept & used) and most have dimensions that won't work for a big lug like me. But...I've always been fascinated by them.

It's been posted before but here is my Reilly 12 bore, SN 34723, last extant gun made at 16, New Oxford Street, probably in April 1897. 2 1/2" chambers. 6 lbs, 1 oz. My go-to gun for everything (when I can get the cartridges).

Here are two of my light 12ga guns. They are great to carry all day. I have no issues or handicap when shooting them.

I load 2 1/2" paper and plastic 1oz and 1 1/8oz shells @1200fps for them. I don't realize any excessive recoil with either.

First is a Charles Daly Featherweight with 26" barrels weighing 5# 9oz empty.





Here is my John Dickson round action from 1890 with 28" barrels. It weighs 6# even. I love hunting with this gun.




All of my 12ga field guns are 6#12oz or less.
My 16ga field guns are 5#7oz to 6#4oz.

Lloyd, the "lighter 12s" don't have "more" recoil. It has nothing to do with the gauge. What matters is the weight of the gun, the weight of the ejecta and the speed the ejecta is accelerated to. Physics doesn't care what gauge you are shooting.

A 6 pound 12, a 6 pound 16 and a 6 pound 20 will have the same recoil if they are shooting the same load to the same speed. The difference between them should be ballistics,,,,,,with the larger bore producing the better pattern, theoretically.

This discussion that relates recoil to gauge is nuts......it's recoil to gun weight, load and speed you should be talking about.

Lloyd,
The gun predates Robert Churchill's introduction of the 25 XXV gun of 1926 after Edwin died in 1910. I searched for something like this for a long time!
Karl

Hey all, here's my lightest 12. Churchill Premire painless action.

25" bbls, skeet/IC

Been a great gun for me!

Best Regards

Greg

Just got off of the phone with Kirby. My son has a new toy coming for his birthday (December 30th, my tax-return baby). George Newnham 12BLE, circa 1882, 30-inch 2-bar damascus tubes, 14 5/8 LOP and at 6 lbs 2.5 ounces. Long, light, and lovely. No choke to speak of but... for long walks on northern grouse trails it should serve admirably. His CZ Bobwhite G-2 12 was a good start but it's a bit heavy and clunky for grouse, this one isn't. Our boy just got home Saturday from CSU and he's back at his summer job again today (and will be for the next month or so). His grades were exemplary (clearly my wife's influence) and IMHO...such behavior needs to be positively reinforced. Hopefully he'll let his pappy borrow it every once in a while?

I have a 6lb Dickson RA and it is certainly hard to manage on crossing targets.

Different horses for different courses as the old saying goes. I am grateful to have been blessed by having a place to go that requires lots of walking when I bird hunt. A heavier gun becomes quite noticeable at the end of a long trail (or a long day). A lighter, faster gun in those circumstances is a valuable tool to posess. I now have several variants (12s, 16s, & 28s) to compare and contrast (yet another blessing!). As with so-many things in life, there is no one-answer, and it is "fun" for me to contemplate all those variables. Even more fun now that I can share this activity with my son.

How much shooting did your dad do after the detachment? Late 70s would impact the healing process, greatly. High blood pressure, diabetes, poor circulation, kidney disorders and age all impact the healing process.

I’ve met people who have never really recovered. If the vision recovers in the damaged eye, it is often not close to the vision remaining in the good eye, leading to what almost appears to be double vision. I suffer a bit of this. At first, it left me nauseous, but, a few years in I’ve made a sort of peace with it, and wink my left eye closed for detail work, and shooting.

The right eye is corrected to 20/20. Thank goodness.

Best,
Ted

My father in his late 70’s suffered a detachment issue after a day on the sporting clays range. It sidelined him for sometime. I cannot state with certainty the causal linkage, but there may be one. We humans are complex machines and like old watches sometimes more fragile when we age.

As for 6lb 12ga guns, years ago I had a O/U Italian gun which weighed 6 even. With light loads it was ok, but I failed to hold back and beat myself to death and gave up on it. Through life experience I have found 6 pound 16’s a pleasure and my preferred standard weight of gun. The key bottom line is to shoot the correct weight load for the gun you are using. For targets I adhere to the old rule of 96, 1oz for a 6 pound gun, and for hunting I sometimes stretch it to 1 1/8.

I have focused on 16’s for most of my hunting life and only recently gotten into 12ga 2 1/2 inch. I do not own any 6lb 12’s and have no plans to get one. When I want to be comfortable hunting I default to a 6lb gun. It is simply I am used to. If a 6lb 12 is your thing, then good on you and use it well.

Lloyd,
Actually that "lightning bolt" is a 1910 Churchill 12 ga., 26" choked .003" & .011" @ 5 lbs. 12 oz. I shoot it well with 1 oz. 2 1/2" RST's. For targets I feed it Fiocchi 2 3/4" 12 ga. trainer loads with 7/8 oz. @ 1200 fps.
I've mentioned it before, it serves me well because I have developed a proper muscle memory for it. Same with my baby framed 28 ga. Merkel. All of my guns are 6 1/2 lbs. and less in weight.
Best wishes for the Holiday's!
Karl

Not any different that 1 oz out of a 6# 20 gauge either. Even 1.25 oz @1200 or so is just fine out of a 6# hunting gun for most folks.

I like my lightweight 12s but they are fat in my hands. Smaller gauges are slimmer and some are much lighter.

Lloyd,
I myself envision hitting the ground like a "well used shotshell"! At 76, it may be around the corner.
Karl

Anyone who suffers from astigmatism is more at risk of a detached retina. Ditto males versus females. People with blue eyes suffer more of them than people with other color eyes. People with ancestry from Northern Europe are more susceptible to detached retinas. Older people are at greater risk as well.

Tell me, exactly how do you square your “most folks” supposition with the above facts about who suffers the greatest chance of retina detachment?

Or, are you just making it up?

Best,
Ted

If you are experiencing "lightning" or "welding" going off in your peripheral vision, then you too are experiencing the cause of all this misery. As I now understand it, PVD or "peripheral vitreous detachment" is an age-related issue that seems to affect the near-sighted and the astigmatic much more than most (more "conical" eyes versus truly "round" eyes). It is the vitreous humor pulling away from the back of the eye as you effectively get-old and "dry-out", and the process can act to tear the connection of the optic nerve with the back of the eye. If you're lucky, you just end up with "floaters" and a few blank spots, if not so-lucky you end up losing the use of that eye as a dark curtain is drawn across it. Ted isn't worst-case but... it has effectively ruined his left-handed shooting. My experience with it has left me with deteriorated vision in my left (or shooting) eye, but I'm still soldiering on. Once damaged you are evidently more fragile, and caution is always advised (no more magnum rifles?) but... when has any sawbones ever not advised caution? I'm not happy about it, but I'm also not going to change anything. I certainly don't love recoil, but I've never been all that sensitive to it either (yet another insensitive bastard, eh?). Lighter guns seem to do better with softer loads and I respond accordingly but... I'm not going to live in fear about it. When my dirt-nap comes I'm hoping to have worn everything completely out, and hang the expense!

Dang it Ted, you killed birds this year like a house afire. You'll be just fine.

Karl, no reason to expect that you won't be smoking birds at 80 years with that 25-inch barreled lightning bolt 12 of yours.

Merry Cristmas you two.