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I have a question regarding using steel shot and shooting through an improved modified choke. Maybe this is a stupid question, but now I’m unsure.

I have a modern AyA 4/53 BL with steel shot proofing (Fleur de lis stamped on the barrel flats). I bought it specifically for use with steel shot if need be going into the future, but have never used it with steel shot to-date. When I bought the shotgun it was tagged as having modified x modified chokes. When I got the gun, I measured the chokes with a choke gauge, and found one barrel measures modified and one measures improved modified.

Tamid’s thread re: pressure variances, got me thinking about the potential riveling of a shotgun barrel. I think I have personally seen that once with my friend’s Ruger Red Label 20 gauge. I had noticed the barrel had little wavy bulges down through the barrel. I had questioned him about it and he told me that he once tried a couple steel shot shells through it. I told him my thought was that it may have happened from him shooting steel shot through too tight of a choke.

Anyway, I certainly don’t want to bugger up my expensive nice AyA. So my question, if the barrels are marked as steel shot proof, then is it still okay to shoot with an improved modified choke? I use to hunt ducks and geese back in the 1980’s before steel shot became mandatory, then stopped, so I have never used steel shot in any of my guns to-date.

I know with our old vintage shotguns, the rule is use nothing tighter than a modified choke with standard steel shot.
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TC

simple reality is that steel requires much high velocities to come close to lead shot performance - in both range and lethality. my experience with steel was brief and unsatisfactory; the first year it was required (1984?), i was invited on a texas coastal goose hunt and bought one box of steel 4's. used them in a brno zh o+u with chrome lined bores - took half the box to drop (not kill) the only bird taken that morning (3 shooters). i gave the rest away, and have never bought steel since....the cost of other non-tox is daunting - but, as a portion of the expenses involved in hunting....it's not a deal breaker for me. i think too much of my guns (humble as they may be), to inflict steel shot on them.

there are many here who disparage bpi (ballistic products inc) loading data as being hazardous to the health of guns and shooters - and i am in agreement with that sentiment. but, they are quite adamant that velocity is the key to steel shot performance....and they will sell the components and supply the loading data to folks who are willing to subject their guns to the level of abuse required for steel to "shine".

i ain't one of those folks...

best regards,
tom

Drew,

It is a little bit chicken and egg.

British guns marked STD were generally made for lead, if they were made for steel they would be marked with the Fleur de Lys mark.

British cartridge manufacturers load “standard steel” cartridges intended to be safe in good condition Nitro (STD) Proofed guns of the right chamber length and subject to recommended limits on shot size and chokes.

Eley have introduced a 2 1/2” 12-bore Grand Prix Traditional Pro Eco with a biodegradable wad and 30g steel No.4 suitable for use in those guns.

I have been told that it is not a good idea to use steel cartridges shorter than the chamber length of the gun, for fear that the jump at the case mouth could allow steel pellets to emerge through the protective wad.

Yes Tim - the STD under the crown.
Very unlikely however that the barrels are 4140, but possibly 1040; which has similar tensile strength and hardness (but less corrosion resistance) and I would personally be apprehensive about using steel target loads through a .040" choke in those barrels.
Please let us know the actual bore and muzzle constriction.

Tim, it's just a personal observation, so don't think I'm being insistent. But, find you a Skeet's bore micrometer (there are other brands, new and used). They're not prohibitively expensive, and will turn out to be one of the most useful "gun accessories" you would ever buy. I have the ability to measure bores and chokes on everything from .410 through 10 bore, and have never regretted the purchases.

I recently finished up a Merkel 147E 12 bore. Owner shoots steel through it exclusively. Not the crazy fast stuff either, “mild steel load”. He was very surprised when I told him his gun was off the face and then proceeded to push feeler gauge after feeler gauge through the gap. Merkels are tough guns. They use great steel, have ample locking surfaces. Steel loads are just harsh. Your AyA will come off the face fairly quickly with the use of steel loads. They simply aren’t as strong as a Merkel, nor are they fitted up as precisely as a Merkel.

Is your AyA made up as a wild fowling piece or a game gun? Heavy action? Thick barrels?

The recoil on most steel loads (even mild ones) is pretty significant. Hopefully your stock will be able to also take the heavy repeated jolts a steel load provides. Keep an eye on that too.

Steel shot loads are usually loaded to the max. High pressure. High velocity. That’s what does it. They have to be loaded that way to drive the payload at speeds sufficient for steel to be lethal. Any payload leaving a muzzle at 1350 to 1700 fps is gonna be straight up stout.
I never said specifically anything about the actual shot having anything to do with pressure or recoil. It doesn’t. When I mention “steel loads”, I’m basically saying high pressure, heavy payload, high velocity. All things that’ll loosen up a gun and stress a stock with a quickness.

Drew , the STD stands for Standard Nitro Proof rather than Standard Steel. As this chart from the current Eley Shooters Diary shows it is just the normal Nitro Proof level (for lead cartridges).

Superior Proof is again for lead cartridges but higher pressures.

The Steel shot mark is the CIP Fleur de Lys Steel shot mark.

In the UK standard steel shot cartridges are supposed to be usable (subject to maximum shot sizes and minimum choke sizes ) in guns Proofed for Standard Nitro.

Guns Proofed with the Fleur de Lys mark should be OK with steel loaded to CIP Pressures.

BUT I understand many American steel cartridges are loaded to higher pressures allowed by SAAMI but in excess of CIP limits.

Tim: I did some looking and couldn't find 2 1/2" steel loads offered today

Thank you Parabola
Are you saying that British Standard Proof is NOT for steel?

This is from the CIP site

12g 50mm, 60mm, 65mm, and 70mm “Standard Proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm / U.S. No. 4s and max. fps 1,300)
(Numbers are transducer BAR converted to PSI)
Maximum Average (SERVICE) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; SAAMI is 11,500 psi
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi
Mean PROOF Pressure 930 BAR = 13,489 psi

BTW: CIP allows much higher pressures for 3" loads than does SAAMI. 12g 3" is 11,500 psi and 3 1/2" is 14,000 psi
12g 3” & 3 1/2” “High performance/Superior Proof”
Maximum Average (Service) Pressure 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi
Maximum statistical individual pressure 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi
Magnum proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi

High Performance Steel regulations: the barrels should carry the High Performance Steel Fleur de Lys stamp and be marked “Steel Shot”

More
https://www.gwct.org.uk/media/1094678/GTA_factsheet_shootingnonlead_ver102.pdf
"‘Standard steel’ cartridges have been designed by manufacturers in association with proof authorities that can be fired through any nitro-proved gun."
"Increased velocity can also be achieved by changing the propellant and generating more pressure. Such cartridges are known as ‘high performance’ steel. They should only be fired in guns proved for steel. This is indicated by a ‘fleur-de-lis’ mark on the gun and the words STEEL SHOT."

Not a steel shooter. I have guns I could shoot steel through, but, none of them are doubles.

A King Ferry Ithaca model 37 12, a 3” gun, that nobody would confuse with a Featherlight. The barrel, with its screw in chokes is a gas pipe.

A Hastings barreled Browning A5. Same deal, the barrel dwarfs the original, and passed French proof.

At the present, shooting lead and some bismuth or heavy metal loads through 16 and 20 gauge doubles, when I absolutely have to. An old Uggy 12, relieved of its former mod/full chokes, I could shoot steel through, but, mostly because I’m not terribly concerned about the condition it ends up being in. That is different than being able to actually shoot steel, but, is an option that is out there.

Look to England to see where old boxlocks are ending up. We don’t have to save all of them.

Best,
Ted

What is the largest steel shot you intend to use?
What gauge?? If 12 gauge #3 is the largest that I would shoot with it,

PLEASE send AyA an email and ask them.

aya@aya-fineguns.com

Yep. skeettx is right. You might just want to send AYA an email and find out for sure. You'll probably get an answer within a day. Good luck!!

CIP “Standard Proof” is for lead OR STEEL (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm / U.S. No. 4s and max. fps 1,300) ie. target/game loads, and without choke restriction (but I still wouldn't use full in a light weight game gun)
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=598636

This is from the Gamebore site

I would have to concur with Drew above. If you measure the constriction of a full choke on an unmodified barrel and then measure the choke on a full choke insert the constriction is the same, roughly. I don't think that little thin walled insert will stop bulging. Perhaps if using a smaller shot size but I have never done that. I have Browning Citori's that have been set to modified in 3" chambers and I use #2 and BB Steel and have for more than 20 years in one of them with no problems. But I did have a stevens 311A with full chokes. One day while shooting and that was just before steel was mandatory, I ran out of shells and I asked my hunting partner to pass me a couple of shells in the heat of the moment. He was shooting steel shells in 2 3/4, BB, which I didn't realize till after the fact. Both my barrels budged. I only mention this because the wall thickness on the 311 was around .035.

Hi Stanton,

I only have the wedge shaped pocket type choke gauge, no micrometer. Thanks for the reference to the Hallowell choke chart, that is really good information showing the choke size ranges.

I emailed AyA asking about their choke size and steel shot proof. So will see if they respond.

______
TC

Yes,
1/2 choke is usually max constriction for steel loads….the exception being special barrels or chokes designed and built using materials for shooting steel through tight chokes.

And you’re right, the level of recoil generated by these loads is going to be a real factor when it comes the action and wood on your gun.

Now, there's an esoteric reference. I once dated a girl whose much older rakehell cousin had reportedly been in the Popeyes.

Yes, that is the CIP "High Performance" (Magnum & Steel) MSIP is 1200 BAR = 17,405 PSI for a Service Pressure of 1050 BAR = 15,229 PSI, and Mean Proof Pressure of 1320 BAR = 19,145 PSI.

And I still wouldn't go there in a < 7# gun

Recoil isn't shot type dependent. It's just payload and velocity. Higher pressures, would do it, however, and perhaps the steel load pressures are higher. That would not surprise me.

Personally, I just use bismuth now, but there was a time when I shot steel.

Thanks for the insight LeFusil. Good information. The AyA 4/53 BL would be considered a light game gun. 12 gauge, it weighs 6 lbs. 12oz. with a standard action. I currently just shoot the same cartridges in it as my vintage British shotguns. 2 1/2 inch, Gamebore Pure Gold, 1 oz. 1200 fps. I'm careful with all my firearms and don't want to damage them. I don't plan on using steel shot for the foreseeable future. There is no lead bans here where I live, other than for hunting waterfowl.

From what I can see re: the British perspective, is no more than 1/2 choke with steel shot, even with the Fluer-de-lis proof stamp. That's my interpretation.

British Use of Steel Shot

______
TC

Good thinking.

My Edwinson Green BLE with Whitworth steel barrels (£38/3/0d. in 1895 when that was a lot of money for a box-lock) gets grudgingly fed Bismuth when shooting over wetlands, but lead otherwise.

If I have to shoot steel or nothing, it won’t be that gun I use.

Jimmy,
Clearly understood, as I'm 76 and just keep pushing.
Karl

Interesting

An AyA 4/53 is neither a Citori or a 686. The 4/53 is a light game gun.
All AyA is saying is that the BARRELS can handle steel loads, loaded to CIP standards. Our steel loads are not loaded to CIP, they’re loaded to SAAMI pressures. Euro proof makes no claims as to the effect of the loads on the action, stock, etc.
Take the “mild” 2 3/4” Remmy Sportsman high speed steel, it’s a 1200 bar load (17k psi) Thats not a normal trap load. They are stout, and It’ll loosen up a light game gun fairly quickly.
There are some Euro steel loads available here in the States. Bioammo produces CIP steel loads that several places sell here in the USA. I have no personal experience with any Euro produced steel loads. Mr. Cartmell may want to look into offerings like that. If it were my AyA, I’d probably stay away from SAAMI steel ammo.

Drew,
The Remmy shells have “1200 bar” printed on the side of the hull.

The article I read about psi was by a Tom Roster that he published in 2014. He said that SAAMI provides for the mean average of 19,800 psi proof loads for proofing barrels for 2 3/4" or 3"-- 12 gauge loads. He started by using loads that developed 20,000 psi in the test Remington 870 barrels. He worked his way up- 5,000 psi at a time until he reached 50,000 psi with no damage to the barrels. At 55,000 psi the barrels blew up. He stated that most barrels blow up because of obstruction. Not by high pressure. So, as I said, maybe I misunderstood the article. I knew guys who used to shoot 1 1/4 trap loads that probably were pretty stout in their Model 12s for years. I guess I don't notice things that other shooters do. Like recoil and trigger pull. You guys talked about the heavy trigger pulls in the CZ Bobwhite shotguns. I stopped in at my local gun store last week and looked at several of their SXSs and when I dry fired them, I thought- that they felt OK to me. Ha-ha!! They were a little "crisp" but I figured that I'm probably heavy handed or something. Ha-ha!! Good luck and take care.

Interesting topic but just shoot Bismuth, although even the Kent Bismuth is a little hot for a spanish SxS. Unless you live somewhere where the sky is blackened by flushing pheasants, it's in the noise, cost-wise. When my state mandated non-toxic in essentially all public areas, I bought a Benelli Ultralight to shoot steel, but when Kent started selling Bismuth I was able to once again use my Browning A-5 Sweet Sixteen and 16 gauge Ithaca Model 37. But I won't put Kent Bismuth through my Ugartecheas or my Garbi. You just have to reload or pay RST, when they have them. Currently Rogers Sporting Goods has #5 12 gauge Kent Bismuth at $34/box, free shipping over $99.00 which if your gun can handle it beats the RST non-tox at $65/box. Now I shoot those Kent 12's in the Ultralight, the improvement in performance over steel is worth it.

As far as I am concerned, the biggest problem is that it is just too hot. For some reason, I have 2 boxes of 1.25 oz Upland loads of #5s. I don't know how I'm going to get rid of them, but it won't be shooting them.

If you reload, I'd be happy to suggest recipes that you can check out. I'm shooting Boss Bismuth with fiber wads, this year, but normally I use home rolleds with Longshot powder and Rotometals Bi/Sn #5s for pheasants. They work really well.

Okay. Thanks for the advice.