doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - 25" Barrelled Shotguns

Fellows, ksauers1 recently posed a question about everyone's opinion of 27" barrelled shotguns, and the conversation made me think about an E. J. Churchill Premiere SxS 12 bore I have, with two sets of 25" barrels with the narrow Churchill ribs. The gun weighs exactly 6 lbs., and balances the same with either barrel set. It is fast handling, as one would expect, but doesn't feel whippy to me. I know Robert Churchill created a lot of controversy when he advocated the 25" barrel a hundred years ago, and it greatly spurred the sales of his guns, I just wondered what the general consensus was on even shorter barrels than 27". They still seem to spark some controversy, even now. It is no gun for clays, or anything of that sort, but a delight to carry in the field and, incidentally, proofed for 2 3/4"" (1 1/4 oz.) ammunition. Sandlapper

I guess I’m in the minority…I’ve never needed an 1 1/4 Oz load for anything with the exception of steel loads for waterfowl. I’ve rarely used 1 1/8 Oz loads. A vast majority of my birds are taken with 1 Oz. loads in 12, 16, 20 bores. I’ve never needed much more velocity over 1200 fps either, with most of the game loads I’m shoot going around 1150 fps. I rarely ever switch loads either. Chuks, pheasants, quail, huns, sharptails, forest grouse all get the same load. Later in a pheasant season, I may switch to #5’s, but not always.
I treat waterfowl differently, but if I’m shooting bismuth, my loads are at 1200 fps & 1 1/8 Oz. Never needed anything more than that.

A limit of sharptails taken with a 12 bore, 6 lb., Churchill XXV using 1 Oz of #6’s at 1150fps. Jumpy birds shot over solid points at 35 & 40 yrds.

Shoot whatever is available at the time. End result, the fellow who knows how to shoot will do a better job than the fellow who doesn't know how to shoot, regardless of the barrel length. "Learn how to shoot."

As originally designed by Churchill, those guns weren't proofed for 1 1/4 oz loads. And having shot driven birds several times in Scotland (of the "normal" variety, not at those shoots which features a lot of birds 50 yards or more in the air), I've never seen anyone shoot loads that heavy at driven birds. They can be killed at 40 yards (which is sufficiently challenging for most mere mortals) with 1 1/8 or even 1 1/16 oz loads. But most "normal" driven birds aren't nearly that "tall". And if you can kill a pheasant flying away from you at 40 yards with 1 1/8 oz of 6 shot, you can certainly kill them as incomers with vitals more exposed with similar loads.

Of course all 1 1/4 oz loads are not equal. Well-known gun writers such as McIntosh, Hill, and Brister praised the old "Super Pigeon" load, which had a modest velocity of 1220 fps and patterned very well. McIntosh put it this way in his book "Shotguns and Shooting", chapter entitled "Gunning John Ringneck": "I wouldn't object too strongly if someone described a 12 gauge, 3 1/4 dram, 1 1/4 ounce charge of hard No.6 as the ultimate all-around pheasant load." I agree. I pattern tested those loads against Winchester's standard Super-X at 1330 fps as well as the then-new pheasant loads at speeds in excess of 1400 fps. The Super Pigeon (unfortunately not easy to find given American ammunition makers' tendency to try to sell both heavier and faster loads as their "premium" pheasant shells) delivered the most pellet strikes in the 30" circle. The Super-X was not far behind. The really fast stuff finished last--and also started with fewer pellets. If it's more killing power you want, that requires more penetration. Moving to 5 shot vs 6 shot is the best way to do that vs increasing velocity or shot charge. Noted ballistician Tom Roster also believes in loads at modest speeds vs what we're being offered these days as premium pheasant loads, both lead and steel. The price you pay for more velocity (and sometimes a heavier shot charge) is more recoil. None of the pheasants I've cleaned to date have been wearing Kevlar. What worked for those classic outdoor writers will still work today.





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25" 12ga Bernardelli 5lb 15 oz with an ounce of 6's(B&P High Pheasant). It is one of my favorite upland shotguns.

From Sandlapper. Pretty handsome gun, to say the least.












[img]https://i.imgur.com/CkiJAr3.jpg[/img]

The only problem with the finger pointing analogy: no one has ever broken a clay nor killed a bird by pointing a finger. That makes it hard to establish whether a short finger is as deadly as a long one.

I followed the instructions of the surgeon and the physical therapist to the letter with the left one. They are still talking about my miraculously short recovery time on my left shoulder. The surgeon told me that mine was the most challenging he had done and it had recovered to a full range of motion in less time than any one he has ever done also. Keeping my fingers crossed for the right one on the 13th. At least its not on Friday!!! Thanks for the well wishes guys. I really appreciate it.

Le Fusil, aka Dustin;

the photo of your beautiful gun as well as your straight on comments caused me to think more about what I am seeing in the very very low prices that such wonderful short barreled "bird" guns are being offered at in the United Kingdom at auctions and at dealers. Even after paying buyers premium and cost to ship to the USA these guns are selling at prices that are sometimes 40 percent less than what they are being offered at in the UK. Here are some examples from the upcoming Holt's Nov 2023 auction with 2 3/4 inch chamber proofs. The barrel wall dimensions for the Nov 2023 auction at Holts are not posted as of yet, so there may be some barrel issues that would cause one not to bid.

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1759+&refno=++203346&saletype=

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1401+&refno=++169315&saletype=

Not only are there very low price short barreled guns for sale but such bargains as this 28 inch barreled 2 3/4 inch chambered beauty from the 1960's.

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++1707+&refno=++209264&saletype=


Wow what bargains

This discussion brings to mind an old friend, that was temporarily addicted to 2" 12 ga doubles. He would be in love until he shot a round of sporting and even with light loads 50 or more shots convinced him they weren't practical. I suspect if we used the these shorter barreled guns in the grouse woods or on a quail plantation or even on one of the sporting courses I shoot at, where many of the targets are quick window shots, they would perform fine.
Not to change your subject but you mention the proof and 2 3/4" chambers. I have a couple old doubles that someone lengthened from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4". While I wouldn't have done that I am not too upset because with guns this light I use a much reduced load, 3/4 oz in guns originally proofed for 1 1/8 oz. I think a round of 25 shots with 1 1/4 oz in your 6 lb guns will have you rethinking that combination.

While they're not for me, I have hunted woodcock with a friend from the low country of SC who shoots a 20 ga., 25" barreled SKB, like Larry mentioned. Floyd is a death ray with that little gun. I'd never bet against him, using it in the woods. He's Gil's close friend and his SKB has been pictured on the annual game picture threads many times.

Nothing wrong with a 25" barreled double. I shot a Winchester Model 23 Grande Canadian with 25 1/2" barrels in Argentina and Columbia through the eighties and ninties for dove, perdiz, and codorniz. This was not a light gun. It weighed about 7 pounds. So that may have helped slow down the swing, but I still shoot a short barreled gun reasonably well.

Pen raised birds over pointing dogs at a game ranch last year. For wild birds, even over pointing dogs, I will stick to my 12, 16, or 20 gauge guns.

Best of luck with your recovery, Perry!

Back in the days when Georgia had bobwhites i shot a 20 gauge SKB 280 25 inch barrels a good bit and it was deadly. Bobby

That one is a keeper!

If you like the gun and can shoot it well, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about the barrel length. It only needs to have barrels at least 18.1" long in order for you to stay out of prison. Probably the greatest factor in whether one can shoot a shotgun well is gun fit. With practice, most can adapt to a gun that is too short or has too much drop. We can consciously tell ourselves to shoot under a bird if we know it patterns high. We can tell ourselves to let the target get further out if we know it has a tight choke. But the guns people refer to as "Death Rays" are typically guns that fit and point naturally. A decent shooter will be able to pick up such a gun and hit well with it even if he hasn't touched it in a while. Practice can sharpen our reflexes and refresh our technique and target acquisition. But it will never completely compensate for a gun that simply doesn't point naturally at the target without requiring contortions, distractions, or decision making.