doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Barrel Measurements, your thoughts ?

In the last few weeks I have looked at on line offerings for three guns from three different sellers. I asked each of these sellers for barrel measurements, but was told that they didn’t have tools to measure. One said that if I was successful in bidding I could take the gun to a gunsmith for measurement.. Another offered wall thickness at the muzzle, only. The third offered pics of the muzzle with a pencil eraser for comparison. These sellers total well over 2000 current listings on the internet. What do you think about a seller who will not disclose gun condition questions ?

I think it is exceedingly common and it surprises me that anyone might think otherwise.

I think that if there is, as is common, a proper return policy than that is part of the cost of doing what we do. Verifying for ourselves the specs of a gun. And if it doesn’t measure up, back it goes.

I’m much more concerned about the return policy. Is it straightforward or is it ambiguous and open for interpretation by the seller to suit his best interests. For example, I stopped pursuing a gun I was interested in that was being offered by a member here because every effort to clarify the return policy was met with bafflegab

Not dealing with hucksters.....


Best,
Ted

Your statement “I do not buy unless I can measure anymore”

Don’t you put in bids at auctions? How do you measure guns that you’re bidding on, especially overseas?

I don’t trust dealers measurements a lot of the times….I just brought in a gun and when measured on my tools….the wall thicknesses in both barrels were less than advertised and the bore diameters were also different than what this “respectable” dealer had in the ad. Gun was still in proof and MWT were adequate, so I kept the gun.

Was one of these sellers ed good? I'd go elsewhere.

I suspect you mean 0.018 in.

Daryl, I feel your pain. Most dealers don't have the equipment, knowhow, or maybe the sense to measure bore dimensions. What I don't understand is a dealer that deals in very expensive shotguns, and has a large inventory of them, and can't or won't measure dimensions. He's either stupid or crooked. The Brits have got all their proof laws set up the correct way. If you sell an out of proof gun there, you pay a hefty fine or lose your license. A good percentage of our dealers wouldn't be in business two months if that law was equally applied.

I affixed cloth tape to my bore gauge, then covered it with clear packing tape.
As Tom observed, it is very easy to feel the end of the chamber - forcing cone juncture, and much more accurate than the simple rule gauges. It also helps document the location of a bulge or deep pit.



I did the same thing on my Henry wall thickness gauge, and it helps document the exact location of a thin spot or pit.



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Sandlapper , these dealers have a combined maybe 2000-3000 guns on the internet at the moment. I cannot believe that they don't have bore, chamber, and wall thickness tools, which might cost $2-3 hundred total, as they would surely drag them out if you were selling to them. I guess they are afraid to let the potential buyer know, or sadly, maybe just too lazy. Surely they understand that if they could report good measurements to the potential buyer, the guns might sell easier or bring more at auction.

Drew, I did the same thing with my bore gauge that you did. With the depth measurements easily at hand, it is very useful.

Several years ago, I had Gary Bulley make two bore gauges for me; the 18" versions that would cover pretty much everything from 10 ga. to 28 ga. bores. He put them into a hinged wooden storage case for, what I thought was a reasonable price. I've been very pleased with them. Regarding the dealers general apathy about barrel dimensions, I think many of them buy a pig in a poke as it were, concentrating more on grade, wood, condition, and engraving than on the basic mechanics of a gun. I would lay awake at night worrying if I were in their place. Some plead ignorance of the barrel dimensions due to effect on sales, and some are just plain ignorant about it. Sandlapper

A return policy should never come into use over simple to measure things. If you can not get a measurement of wall thickness do not bid. Why should I pay shipping and insurance both ways, then wait for funds to be refunded? A basic wall thickness measuring tool should cost you a couple hundred bucks at most. Top of the line are $700.00 or more. Cost part of doing business are the tools needed to be in business. A carpenter needs a hammer and air-nailer to work, a gun dealer needs tools to measure chokes and wall thickness.

You can not eyeball thicknesses and it is an important thing to know for real condition, original condition and safe use. I have seen more than one gun which had barrels cleaned up so poorly that they were trash. A mint looking LC Smith almost came home with me last year until I found the barrels had been reamed out until they were .014 about 12" from the breech. The gun had a honest 90% case color and 95% bluing, dealer 99% & 99% but the barrels were paper thin right about where my fingers hang out. I do not buy unless I can measure things anymore. Some dealers do not know and do not want to know facts which might interfere with selling a gun. Those will not measure and may not allow you to measure their guns. So I just wave goodbye to them and count my blessings and fingers.

If I look at a gun in person, I bring my tools to measure the barrels, chokes, stock and trigger pulls. If I buy a gun at auction, I make sure I can return in three days, mostly it if the barrels are too thin but still three days right to return. If a dealer or seller refuses to have the gun measured, I happily walk away and count my blessings. I have stopped dealing with three dealers for just that reason. If they are afraid to have their guns properly evaluated then I will never deal with them. People are a lot more reasonable before they get your money, than they are after the get your money and then have to give it back.

I have a thousand plus dollars in measuring devices and they have saved me many times that much in bad purchases alone. Much more than that if I had bought a gun and had the barrels take off part of my favorite hand. Not everybody needs to spend that much money, but you do need to know how to get the information you truly need about gun condition and safety. Pay a gunsmith to closely inspect your purchase before you lose the option to send it back. Find a gunsmith to do this, even if you have to drive to his location. You could always have him accept delivery of the gun for you and have him check it out mechanically as a starting point.

Every single gun in my gun room has been completely evaluated and measured. I started out doing this years ago because my kids used my guns and I wanted to make certain every gun on the wall was 100% safe for them to shoot. Then it became an information thing in that I just like to know and make sure these old guns will be good for the next generation or two after me to be shot safely. I have a book which details all the measurements along with any note about things that I found or repaired. Those who are too far gone are deactivated, including a few family guns which have been used too long and are no longer safe to use anymore. Mostly those were typical farmer guns which got far more use than care.

I was looking at a drilling at the Southern last year 12x12 over 9.3. I asked if I could go measure it and test fire the shotgun barrels.
When I took the barrels off, the German proofs were 16 gauge 65mm. Someone had opened it to 12 gauge 2 3/4".
I did not test fire it and promptly returned it.

I have a 20ga Coswell and Harrison ca 1973. Proofed at .615. Both barrels are spot on .615. the left barrel drops to 19 thou about 6" from the muzzle. It was just made that way, best I can figure.

My barrel wall thickness gauge will be at the Southern along with my bore gauge. I usually leave them in the truck but will be happy to check out a gun. I have 4 rods, so can measure 10 to .410.

John Hosford covers some his travel expenses measuring barrels and selling bore gauges. I feel like I am supporting him by not openly measuring guns.

Joe in Charlotte

That's right, they are dealers... in the business of selling the guns they have in their inventory. Therefore, they aren't very likely to be motivated to provide the tools or information that is going to convince a buyer to look elsewhere.

And even if they had quality bore and barrel wall measuring instruments, there is the little problem of being competent enough to use them properly. Too many people who think they could consistently and accurately measure all along a shotgun bore are the very same folks who couldn't remove a slotted screw in a gun without making it look like the job was done by a caveman with flint tools. So when someone without the skills of a trained journeyman machinist or tool and die-maker gives you some measurements made with sensitive precision measuring tools that are prone to error when used improperly, what makes you think those numbers will be true and accurate? Or maybe ignorance really is bliss. One guy above wants to buy barrel measuring tools, but blew up his Springfield rifle due to a reloading error, and blamed the gun, not himself. Would you trust his measurements if he was selling you a gun?

Chukarman is right. Caveat emptor. Do your own due diligence, and don't be shocked or surprised if a dealer doesn't do it for you. And even if he does provide measurements, you shouldn't believe them until verified.