doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Thoughts on who did this engraving

Not the best pictures of this Pigeon grade Winchester model 12 20 gauge but the work especially the dogs looks excellent. Gun was manufactured in 1951. WS1 choke but unfortunately has a Cutts installed. Any thoughts on the possible engraver is appreciated.

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Foxy, did you learn your WWII history from Hollywood??

Yes, I see that now. Thanks.

Thanks to those with positive feedback. Seems that there are still some that like to stir the turd. To get back on track. Here are some better and additional pictures.

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Pretty amazing. I like the little detail on the magazine tube. Made me chuckle for some reason. The grip cap is pretty nice too.

It looks like the engraving panels get pretty deep in some places. Is there any risk of structural strength? I don't know the innards of an M12, but those areas don't look especially vital to strength but still looks like a lot of missing metal - enough to even make a significant weight difference, perhaps.

Cool gun, for sure. If there is no engraving on the barrel, I'd be tempted to find another barrel for it to do away with the Cutts.

Have you tried to letter the gun?

I now own the gun. The owner sold 3 Model 12’s, as well as a 42 all engraved with the cutts installed.I am trying to get some history as I did not buy it directly from the original owner.
Cutts were originally designed as a recoil reducer from what I understand.
You could order from Winchester in this exact configuration. I am guessing it did not leave the factory this way but like all manufactures I guess it was possible to send back later for upgrades.
I own a grade 6 21 that Pauline found records on that shows my field grade started life as a plain Jane and went back after the war to be upgraded.
Some of our guns were set up to be shot as the owners wanted.
The owner paid the money and got what he wanted. I plan to shoot it and see if there is a little magic still in this old gun.
I sure wish the pictures I posted would reflect just how nice the gun really is. A lot is lost due to the resolution.

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Fos would you quit shitting on my post. Start another and post your Model 12 28 gauge you keep bragging about.

This gun is way up on the engraving ladder far above a winchester factory engraving,at least what I have seen

Arnold Griebel

I agree with MC and Reasearcher, Griebel.

Thumbing through the "Artistry in Metal" section of a dozen or so old Gun Digests from the late 50s to the 70s I'd vote Arnold Griebel.

The recv'r itself being 'In the White' along with the grip cap and those two pieces being the only ones that are engraved suggests a couple things to me.

First I am assuming that those parts are in fact void of bluing. They appear that way in the pics.
Second, I cannot see any engraving on the bbl or the trigger guard.
Both the guard and the bbl/forearm assembly are blued

The Pigeon engraved on the bottom of the magazine tube was standard for Factory mark indicating a Pigeon Grade.
A simple line cut figure about anyone around the engravers shop could accomplish.

That the Frame and the grip cap are Engraved and left In the White suggests these parts were sent off separately to be engraved. Returned 'In the White' and then assembled and here they are today.
The grip cap likely made and fitted to the stock then removed and sent as a separate piece along with the frame to the engraver.

Who engraved it?,,Could be any one of a number of skilled engravers at that time Post WW2.
It certainly suggests German/Austrian/Belgian influence. There are many engravers in that period capable of the work. Some well known as mentioned, Some others the names may ring a bell. Others nearly unkn but to a few.

Many of their works have similar and familiar traits as they learned their trade through the same system and often from the same masters.

It is extremely difficult to place a name onto a piece of work when so many did the same style and at the same time.
..and at what point in someones career was the piece cut. Were they at mid point in what would be a Masters career? or on the downside of what was the same.
Quality can change as we travel through out career and it isn't always for the better. Age , injury, illnesses can all effect skills.

The most common or famous names come to mind right away. But in this instance I'm not so sure they're the correct guess.
The game scenes are well done but there are some details in the structure of the birds & dogs that leave something to be desired that I can't quite place this
work into the Griebel or Fugger camp.
Plus I think either of those would have at his point in their engraving careers signed their work and not made it a hide 'n seek game to find it.
Neither was shy about promoting their work and themselves.

The scroll is often called Black Leaf scroll or Old German Leaf scroll in Germany, Sometimes Belgian Arabesque scroll. Some say that's an incorrect term, so maybe it's just
Belgian Scroll then to keep everyone happy.
It has as many different names as it does variations of styles. Always a popular choice for scroll work.