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Jan 21st, 2024
Thread Like Summary
9372, earlyriser, Hoot4570, R. Marshall, Run With The Fox
Total Likes: 23
Original Post (Thread Starter)
by 9372
9372
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Hello, Im looking for any advice to reload 9,3x57r/360 for this Tellbushe made in 1899 or 1900(by serial number). I allready cut the 9,3x72r cases to 57mm a try them in the gun with 31gr of lovex S062 for 1235fps(not right powder) with Sellier Bellot 193gr collath flat nose soft point. Whats the Best powder for this caliber, load data, max pressure.. Is it 2450 as for 360 express?
Thank you. Martin
Liked Replies
by fuhrmann
fuhrmann
9372

I have an Austrian rifle from ca.1896 in the caliber 9,3x57R/360. I do reload the cartridge and I have done some search for original ballistical data.

Your rifle has only proof marks for black powder, BP. Rifling is of Express type, intended for lead bullets
Loading (and firing!) a 9,3x72R cartridge in a 9,3x57R/360 chamber should not be possible. I assume the chamber of your rifle was opened up at some time. Lack of additional proof marks indicates this operation was "Pfusch" / butchery....
The 9,3x57R/360 comes from a time when ballistical tables where unknown. By the time the German ammunition companies DWM and RWS started to publish ballistical charts, around 1930, the 9,3x57R/360 was becoming obsolete there. I never saw any German velocity or pressure data, for BP or for nitro loads. I know comparable pressure and velocity data from old German sources only for the 9,3x72R. There are British data for the .360 2 1/4 Express for BP, NfB and Nitro loads, but that again is a different cartridge.

My Austrian rifle has original BP proof marks, and additional Nitro proof from the time between 1938 and 1945. So there must have been 9,3x57R/360 Nitro loads in Austria, and apparently also from Czech and Slovak factories.
Your cartridges are very interesting! Are there any ballistical data ? Did you chronograph them?

On reloading:

Pressure:
there is no max. pressure published for the 9,3x57R/360.
The 2450 bar value applies to the 9,3x72R, to be used in sound, stout and nitro proofed guns.
With my reloading I have tried to stay around BP pressure levels, not more than ca 1200 bar according to Quickload calculations.

Bullets:
never anything else than lead, or the soft-jacketed TESCO type bullets.
Other bullets intended for 9,3x62 may have thicker jackets, maybe thicker diameter, may increase pressure, and make no sense anyway if loaded at BP pressure levels.
I have used the 193 grain jacketed bullets from RWS, DWM and S&B, and 193 grain lead bullets from Haendler&Natermann.
Your 72U bullets are old RWS bullets, nice find!

Powders:
for jacketed bullets I use Rottweil R901, 28 to 30 grains, v0 is ca. 500 to 540 m/s
for lead bullets I still have some SR4759 , 18,5 grains give v0 around 440 m/s. Unfortunately this powder is not available any more.
Lovex powders are not available in Switzerland, where I live.

Best regards
fuhrmann
2 members like this
by HalfaDouble
HalfaDouble
Just as a reference, the Accurate 175 grain flat nose is .74 in length and the 196 grain flat nose is .83 in length.
2 members like this
by Bill Meyer
Bill Meyer
I also have a rifle that looks like the one pictured. When I bought it the barrel had been cut about 4 inches from the back end and sleeved with another barrel about 38 cal. As I had no use for such a caliber I installed a new barrel chambered for .22 K-Hornet. Made a rib for scope mounts and had to make a forend. Haven't shot it yet but looks like FUN...... Bill
2 members like this
by 9372
9372
It is from two shots fired
2 members like this
by 9372
9372
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Thank you Der Ami!
Yes I do Hunt, shot this boar with Tell and factory sellier bellot 9,3x72r 2 days ago.
In a week I'll get originál factory rounds 9,3x57r/360,so I'll do some testing, hopefully I'll find vihtavuori N135 or 130,120. I allready tried sb 193gr bullets, makarov 95grn bullets, lead cast type 72U 227gr,but I only have S062 lovex powder and it is just to slow. Ánd yes, I did cut down few x72r cases and reloaded them. Thank you.
Martin
2 members like this
by BrentD, Prof
BrentD, Prof
I have collected a bunch of twist calculators. Some use only twist and bullet length, some use velocity as well.

For the types of rifles I shoot, it is generally accepted that the Greenhill constant of 150 needs to be downsized to about 130 or 125. I have found that 125 seem to do the best job of predicting the ragged edge of stability in slower BPCR rifles with lead bullets.

So using the numbers you supply and guessing a velocity of 1900 fps, I get
Greenhill (150) -> 0.81" for max bullet length
Greenhill (130) -> 0.70"
Greenhill (125) -> 0.675"

Carr -> 0.70"
Crawley -> 0.83"
Lilja -> 1.035"
Charley Dell -> 0.83"

Obviously, Lilja sticks out like a sore thumb for being different from the others, but I suspect that is because it is probably developed for very fast, very point, boattailed, jacketed bullets.

If it was me, I would look at these numbers and figure I want to be under 0.8" long. Probably around 0.75 would suffice for me. If I was planning to shoot very far (>500 m), I would go shorter yet.
2 members like this
by ellenbr
ellenbr
Um for 250 gr Speer, I think VV N140 for 2200 fps, 2341 bar?? But that may be for 0.358" bullets. So not sure on 0.366"? I would migrate to VV N140 as it noted as being similar to the old R5(Rottweill 5) which was used in the original cartridges.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
1 member likes this
by ellenbr
ellenbr
Too, those Sauer lists are just approximate guess of when a Serial number was issued to a piece of metal. There are 2 or 3 of them.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
1 member likes this
by Der Ami
Der Ami
I did not have internet access yesterday and couldn't weigh in. Since the rifle is marked for bore diameter with gauge measurement, it was proofed under the 1891 effective Mar. 1893), before the 1911 improvements. The S&B .366 193 grain bullet is fine to use for a jacketed bullet. I believe the 250grain .358 bullet is made for larger 35 caliber rifles and I wouldn't consider them appropriate. If the bore diameter had been marked as 118.35, I would consider the 200 grain RN, or the new Flex Tip bullet made for 35 Remington as being acceptable. I don't think the S.5 powder is the same s R.5. I use H 4895 to substitute for R.5 instead of VN 140, only because I have a quantity available. With either powder (or other similar powder), it is essential to reduce the charge weight by 10% and work up watching for pressure signs and velocity. For cast bullets traditional cast bullet powders should be used instead of those mentioned above. Cast bullets intended for 9.3 or 38-55 should be useable if they will fit easily inside the neck of a fired/unsized case. Diameters, of course, can be adjusted by sizing. Ed Harris' "The Load" of 13 grains of Red Dot with appropriate bullets is often used, as are 12 Grains+ of Unique or an appropriate amount of 4198 or 5744. You should be able to use 38-55 data as a guide.
Mike
1 member likes this
by HalfaDouble
HalfaDouble
The loads I have used in my various Husqvarna 9.3x57R (360) rifles (Mod 33 rolling blocks and a Cape) are 14.5 grains of 4227 with a 175 grain lead bullet and 17.5 grains with a 196 grain lead bullet; 13.5 grains of 4759 with the 196; 17.5 grains of 5744 with a 196; 18 grains of 4198 with the 196; 21 grains or Reloader 7 with the 196. These were in the 1250 fps range except the 4198 was closer to 1350. I checked the back records on a couple of the 9.3x72R rifles I've had and found hunting loads of 40 to 42 grains of 3031 with the 200 grain Norma soft jacketed bullet. I have a small supply of the Norma and the 193 grain DWM bullets set aside and I haven't tried them in the Husqvarnas.
1 member likes this
by HalfaDouble
HalfaDouble
They were from www.accuratemolds.com, catalog page 10, numbers 37-175C and 37-196B. They cast at .368 and I size to .367.
1 member likes this
by 9372
9372
Hoot 4570!
Thank you very much, very helpfull site, brilliant!
1 member likes this
by journeymen
journeymen
Man is a lot of good info. I'm just about ready to start reloading 9.3x72r for my stalking rifle
1 member likes this
by fuhrmann
fuhrmann
Originally Posted by 9372
Hello Fuhrmann!
Thank you very much!
Bullets type 72U-my friend in Germany has a custom mold made for these bullets. He lives at south west corner near the french border. Maybe he can make some for xou if you like.
Yes, its ex amnesty firearm, so it wasnt registered at the police for who knows how many decades and how many different rounds /9,3x72r and loadings been shot through it. Still is very solid, if I put sheet of paper 0,06mm thick in the action, I cant close the gun. I cant see any real marks at the beginning of the rifling, I guess it was just polished till would accept 9,3x72r cartridge-this is why factory sellier bellot is flying fast from it-668m/s its at the max speed in load data at 2000bar.Here is what I found on the forum: Crown over B denotes proof in the final state. Until the 1912 rules change, the voluntary proof w/ the load data was an additional cost, so it wasn't employed all the time.
I have 1906 drilling were shotgun barrels are nitro proof and rifle one is not. Additional cost of proof kind of explaining it. Tell rifles been made for 40years 1896-1936 and I dont think so they been change appart for safety and také diwn/easy change of barrel Bolt. Been made in 6,5x58r too and there is max pressure I think 2800bar. Sturdy little rifles.
Its just a picture of the ammo box made in Czechoslovakia in Povazske strojárne, in week or two Ill get some rounds from Dorfner and maybe some old Czechoslovakian cartridges, I'll test them and let you know. On the old boxes is marked powder Sm 5, 2,59g with 12,5g bullet.
Here is one BP load from an old catalouges. Says 2,7g BP with 12,3g lead bullet, at 25m =400m/s 102 mkg.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
I read somewhere that original nitro load was cca 1700fps with 12,5g bullet.

Hello 9372

I live in Switzerland near Basel, close to the German border. Your friend may not be far away. I will send you a private message with my address. Much appreciated if you pass it to your friend.

The S&B website says v0 is 611 m/s for 9,3x72R cartridges. I think the same, the chamber probably was reamed or polished until a 9,3x72R cartridge fit it. But no room for leade and proper release of the bullet. Your problem may now be a very wide chamber for the 9,3x57R/360 cartridge.
Good that this rifle is very sturdy!

I have some hunting magazines of the time 1898 till 1912. There was a lot of discussion regarding nitro powders and the "shooting loose of break action guns". Some hunters preferred to stay with black powder - that is why 9,3x72R, 9,3x82R etc were actually developed.

So I understand you have only the pictures in your hand, not the ammo box and cartridges?
Funny thing is that the cartridges are stamped "Egestorff...". A German factory, headstamp was used before WWI.
Beware, old ammunition may be already reloaded, not original from the factory.
Thanks for the data!

fuhrmann
1 member likes this
by Der Ami
Der Ami
9372,
The primers appear to be the Berdan M71, 6.45 (.245"). I don't remember the RWS number off the top of my head, but they can be identified by their diameter. I tried to locate a source for when my supply is exhausted but to no avail. Whether you buy the cases or not is up to you, even if not commercially available there is always the chance of finding some in an estate or on Ebay. If they are fired cases, you should determine if they were primed with mercuric primers. The German Sinoxide primers were non-mercuric pretty early, but I don't know about the others. If you can translate the text on the box, it should inform you. If you can buy some original ammo at a price you can afford, you should buy some. Their actual velocity (not advertised velocity) will be valuable information to judge your handloads by.
Mike
1 member likes this
by Hoot4570
Hoot4570
Originally Posted by 9372
The barrel twist is one turn per barrel long 62,5cm, so around 1:24,6 inch, I cant find any info about this twist rate in 9,3mm bore and for what bullet weights/speed it meant to be. Range of bullets for 9,3x57r/360 were between 124gr to 227gr..Any ideas? Thank you

There are a number of on-line calculators for Greenhill's formula. Most of them use known inputs to calculate the proper twist. A bit of fiddling and one can use them to work towards any of the variables.

Example => https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Greenhill+Formula+for+Optimal+Rifling+Twist+Rate
1 member likes this
by 9372
9372
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
9,3x57r/360 BLANICKE STROJÁRNE CZECHOSLOVAKIA from 1959
BULLET soft point type 61, 12.50g
Powder SM 5 - 2,59g
OAL 71,30mm
From Saur tell rifle model 5, barrel lenght cca 62,5cm
Temperature 5`C
Velocity 1774fps-540m/s
1790fps-545m/s for 1373ftp - 1862J of energy
Accuracy-at 50m I used first rear sight (for 80m in the catalouges, second is for 150m) and bullet hit spot on horisontaly and vertically it hits top of the bead of the front sight.
Recoil was mild compare to sellier bellot 9,3x72r (2200fps) from that rifle.primers were slightly pushed out.
1 member likes this

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