doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Researching an heirloom Fred Adolph Genoa NY 20ga

I am a doublegun.com outsider who is currently assisting my brother-in-law in researching the history, value and provenance of an heirloom Fred Adolph, Genoa, NY 20 gauge, side by side shotgun in its original wood case that has been quietly handed down through several generations of our family.

I'm here because in my research I came across an extensive 2007 thread on doublegunshop.com forum with information about Fred Adolph guns. One of the post’s contributors, Michael Petrov, who it sadly appears passed away in 2014, expounded on the history of Fred Adolph’s work. The extensive dialogue around Fred Adolph’s guns and history suggested there may be more enthusiasts with knowledge of this gun’s maker who might be able to assist our quest to establish its history and value. We’re hoping that with your collective and extensive experience with collectible firearms some of you might be able to shed some light on the importance and collectability of this particular gun.

We can trace ownership back to a great grandfather who lived his whole life in Auburn NY (1869-1937) quite near Genoa, NY but we have no paperwork related to original purchase. One intriguing clue regards the trigger guard which is monogramed in gold with the initials WBS.

While we have some experience with shotguns we are neither gun enthusiasts or collectors ourselves. This being the case, the family may consider putting this shotgun on the market, so we’re also researching what might be the best way to offer it for sale. We’re reaching out to a number of experts for appraisals, advice and suggestions if and when we do chose to sell it. But at this point we are primarily interested in educating ourselves before determining the next step.

Thanks for any help you can offer. We appreciate any knowledge or referrals you might be able to offer that could help us learn more about the importance and value of this particular gun. Thanks, Tim H and Tim F

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/xshWijash5TqtSBw5[/img]


John Allen in Franklin Tennessee is a good appraiser. I would guess it would bring 6k on GB. Just an educated guess. After an appraisal you can decide to list with big auction house or sell directly to someone like Lock Stock and Barrel or GH. BEAUTIFUL gun though!

TDH,
There are a couple sources of information for Fred Adolph and his guns. The German Gun Collectors Assn. Published a special edition of the Assn's. publication DER WAFFENSCHMEID relating to Adoloph. If there are any left (likely), you can buy one for a reasonable price. Also, the website German Hunting Guns has a good bit of information concerning him. This site was recently hacked and was infected by a virus. It is currently being redone with a different server and I have been informed it will be completed within the next few days. I hope this helps you.
Mike

Could you pleasure us with an image of the other flat of the ejector gun and also the water-table? Is the word >>Safe<< on the top tang?


The stamps of the S in a Chevron note the Krupp tubes were sourced from the Schilling forge and more than likely performed a couple tasks on the tubes.

AW are the initials of the tubeset knitter and I will search for matches.


I would 1st guess the longarm originated in Zella-Mehlis and the adornment was either by Gustav Ernst or a student of Ernst. I do not think at all that Austrian Rudolph Kornbrath contributed any effort. An American engraver would not have put an Auerhahn/Capercaillie on the floorplate. The Anson & Deeley Body Action longarm looks to be for export and was totally made in Zella - Mehlis. The word >>Stahl<< on the tubes were read instead Steel if the tubes were sourced in the rough bore state from Germany. Too, with the steel terms Krupp & Germany coupled, that would note export as every German well knew Krupp. The tubes wear the preliminary shot test but I am curious where the full regiment of German proofmarks might be? One might say that Fred Adolph worked them off in making the longarm. But I state that is a very low probability and Fred Adolph had connections, didn't want to pay for the proof fee and since the longarm was destined to a country that did not have proof laws, then managed to circumvent the German proof effort. Fred Adolph made few guns, maybe finished a few stocks? But the sourced his wares from the talented mechanics from Suhl & Zella-Mehlis. Look at his business modell & why he went broke. He wasn't sourcing components and finishing weapons, he was purchasing them completed in the final state. That's what broke him when clients didn't pay.

Also, with the tubeset knitter being a German mechanic, the longarm was brought to a final state in Germany and shipped to the U.S. of A. Fred Adolph was a Firearms merchant @ Best and had bolts of Wool.

More images of the marks will substantiate the above hypothesis, actually reality.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Alfred Wilhelm of Zella-Mehlis comes to mind as the tubeset knitter and he is appropriate for the time period.

Emil Wilhelm could be the Schäfter or stocker as they may have wanted to keep the work in the family???

Otto Weiss might have been the Schäfter too??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Few have addressed Mr. Tim Hanrahan's question about the worth of this superb 20 gauge long-barreled single trigger side x side shotgun in nearly original condition with its original case (that is worth alone US$1,500.00) made in Europe during the time when metal working and wood working perfection was the standard.

First I want to say to Mr. Hanrahan that the today in America and Great Britain is one of the worst times to sell a gun--it is a buyers time; and that the ultimate value of your gun could be several times greater if when and where you sell it that you sell it matters a great deal. And more specific to the details of the decoration of your gun and its quality workmanship areas of the world to sell it that would warrant much attention and amount offered that come to my mind are of course Germany and Austria; Cape Town, South Africa (because of the wealthy Germans who have moved there) and Saudi Arabia and adjoining countries. Saudi Arabia and adjoining countries because of the "desert fox" engraving motif on the left side of the action).

Fortunately this gun only a few screws turned out of its original alignment from the makers and only one place on the knuckle end of the fore-end wood that was not done by the original stockmaker and further except for the noted carving on the fore-end wood was entirely made in Europe.

Several things about this gun need to be known further to enhance its value and promotion for sale and those are the balance and weight of the gun, the barrel bore condition, its current chamber length in regards to its original proof marks, the overall condition of the barrels along their full length and so forth; and does the single trigger mechanism work properly. Many on this website do not like a side x side shotgun with a single trigger, but a shotgun with a pistol grip stock and a singe trigger that function perfectly is a joy to behold and shoot.

I am not certain that an appraisal by an American of the value of this gun is prudent for you, but instead contacting someone like Wolfgang von Brauchitsch in Germany who sometimes comments in posts on this website (Raimey can give you his email address). A poster has suggested that you contact the German gun collectors and doing that will be a wise thing for you to do.

In the current market of America (and as noted by another poster) this gun will bring between US$5,000-$10,000 but in my opinion will bring 2 times or more that if you choose the proper place to sell it. Keep in mind (and this deserves repeating) that you have a long-barreled 20 gauge side x side shotgun with a single trigger and "best quality" workmanship made during the finest era of Germanic gunmaking that has ever been---and where else have you ever seen another.

KIndest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Bottom line....what is the gun worth ?

Being German made is not a plus in price.

It is interesting if you read Mr Adolph own words in the germanhuntingguns archives, he was especially hard on those great gunmakers he so graciously used and took all the credit for their work. Others like SD&G pointed out in their advertising that it was made by others elsewhere. So I can completely understand Raimeys disdain for said creep. I do still judge the guns on individual merit not the name on the thing, and these can be good examples to do just that. Hope knowing he was a creep keeps pricing reasonable.

Tim; I spelled Wolfgang's surname incorrectly. It is Brauchitsch. Further since the gun is in Virginia I suggest that you take it down to gunsmith Gunter Pfrommer in Rocky Mount, Virginia and ask him to check it out. He should also have numerous German and Austrian contacts that may be helpful to you.

Wolfgang; I apologize for the incorrect spelling of your surname, please forgive me.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Canvas-Back:

I was trying so hard to be politically correct, just for you, our Best Mate on the Northern Border.....


Serbus,


Raimey
rse

Looking at the butt plate photo gives me a "headache". I am going to rethink the degree of original makers work on this gun and the gun's worth.

Regards;
Stephen Howell

Please post when and where you do eventually list, it would be interesting to see how much she sells for. I’m not a bidder on this one but if it was a16ga with 2 triggers I probably would.The added carving really isn’t that bad on this one after looking at his others. My guess( after buying 8 German guns in the last 3 years online) would be 6k. Good Luck and thanks for sharing, as always here I learned a few things from your post/thread.

Whatever it will realize @ auction.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse