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Mar 29th, 2024
Thread Like Summary
1916XE, Geo. Newbern, liverwort, Run With The Fox, Stanton Hillis
Total Likes: 7
Original Post (Thread Starter)
#617541 08/03/2022 5:44 AM
by liverwort
liverwort
I was looking at a gun today that I was told had 3 inch chambers and had a serial number 1612, and I understood the PIN guns were Sterlingworths, so my questions are; how did it get that serial number, and why would a PIN gun have a 3 inch chamber? I going to try and post a picture. The gun is marked just FOX where Sterlingworth typically is. Thank you.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
Liked Replies
#617577 Aug 3rd a 02:54 PM
by Researcher
Researcher
That is a Philadelphia Arms Co. Fox gun.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

See the info here on the A.H. Fox Collectors Association, Inc. web site --

https://www.foxcollectors.com/pre-fox-guns/philadelphia-arms

Keep in mind that at the time of the Philadelphia Arms Co. Fox doubles the longer shells offered by our manufacturers didn't carry heavier loads than could be had in 2 3/4-inch shells. They had more/better wadding which many gun cranks considered an advantage. My gun the C-Grade pictured on the AHFCA site is chambered for 3-inch shells.

Could I have some more info on 1612? Barrel length? Grip style? I have been keeping track of observed Philadelphia Arms Co. guns. I've recorded 93 guns, or parts thereof, with extractors from serial number 51 to 1846. A single ejector gun with a serial number in the 26xx range has been observed.
1 member likes this
#617580 Aug 3rd a 03:02 PM
by KY Jon
KY Jon
Fox is even more complicated than that. There was also a Baltimore Fox company, Philadelphia ArmsCompany and AHFox Company. And Ansley had some connection with all three. He was a part of Philadelphia Arms Company which made this gun. He quit there in December 1904. Later as AHFox his third gun company he bought the physical plant that PAC had built in November 1906. The Baltimore Fox was his as well with several partners for money. It failed. PAC was next and it failed. AHFox was last and he ended up selling out, which is a nice way to say it was failing, it was later sold again and everything moved to NY.

So three different Fox guns, three different Fox gun companies, three different cities and states involved. One thing they all had in common was Ansley. His design got better as time went by, but he entered the double gun business towards the end of mass production numbers and when the repeater was quickly taking over.

Most PAC guns were well made, with good barrels. 3” was not really a factory chambering but the barrels would be capable of any shell made in that day. The later Winchester 3” shell was 20+ years away when this gun was made. I’d pass on the gun as a good 3” shooter. If that’s what you want there are hundreds of AYA doubles with factory 3” chambers that are in the same price range.
1 member likes this
#617601 Aug 3rd a 06:02 PM
by KY Jon
KY Jon
Your Fox 3” guns were mostly H and HE grade and Sterlingworth Waterfowl models. Both bring a premium price due to rarity. I picked up a AYA 12 model 3 for under a grand in like new condition for waterfowl. It came Full and Full so needs chokes opened up is steel shot is used. But it is a modern gun and built long after the concerns about internal parts being soft that many Spanish guns suffered from in the 70’s.
1 member likes this
#617613 Aug 3rd a 08:44 PM
by Researcher
Researcher
The heaviest 12-gauge smokeless powder loads offered by our North American ammunition manufacturers from the late 1890s to the early 1920s were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powders or 28-grains of dense smokeless powders such as Infallible or Ballistite. From the 1905 UMC catalog --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

These loads have been reported to be higher pressure than SAAMI specs which came into being circa 1925.

In the early 1920s our ammo companies introduced progressive burning powder, high velocity loads, Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X leading the way in 1922. Progressive burning smokeless powder moved out the 1 1/4-ounce 12-gauge load at higher velocity with lower pressure than the old bulk and dense smokeless powder loads. The progressive burning powders also allowed the upping of the payload in the 3-inch 12-gauge shell to 1 3/8-ounce at acceptable pressure levels.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
1 member likes this
#617695 Aug 5th a 12:20 AM
by 67galaxie
67galaxie
Have a smith check the wall thickness of the barrels where the chambers were lengthened. I have a heavy barreled pin gun that someone lengthened out to 3". I have only shot 2 3/4 loads out of it but it really kills the birds. The chokes remain full and full. The barrels are still plenty thick. My main concern with shooting 3" shells out of it would be the stock. I would like to keep it in one piece
1 member likes this
#617717 Aug 5th a 05:23 PM
by Researcher
Researcher
The prices are per thousand. Two cases. People were stronger forty and more years ago and shot shells came in cases of 500 shells, 20 boxes. Now we can only lift 250 shells, 10-boxes in a flat.
1 member likes this
#617604 Aug 3rd a 06:45 PM
by Researcher
Researcher
The long ARROW 12-gauge shells offered by UMC in 1905. With bulk smokeless powders, DuPont, E.C., Schultze, etc. --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

With dense smokeless powders, Ballistite or Infallible --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The standard chambering for Philadelphia Arms Co. was 2 5/8-inch (likely intended for 2 3/4-inch shells), but they would chamber for longer shells if the customer requested. Recommended loads from the 1905 Philadelphia Arms Co. catalog --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogs that mention chamber length are the 1913 and 1914. They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4-inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16–inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2-inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8-inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16-inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8-inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 ¾- inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8-inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the book The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also, in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. A series by Sherman Bell in The Double Gun Journal showed no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers.
1 member likes this

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