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Thread Like Summary
John E, LetFly, mc, Stanton Hillis
Total Likes: 30
Original Post (Thread Starter)
#613125 03/29/2022 12:38 AM
by LetFly
LetFly
Does the Ithaca Lewis use v springs or coil springs?
Liked Replies
#613170 Mar 29th a 04:14 PM
by AGS
AGS
What happened to the Southern Redneck accent all of a sudden? I read previously your "Jovial" explanation of the "enhanced" posts, and I didn't buy it. To me it is a bigotted act, and as a Southern Redneck by birth I take offense from it.

I have bought around 20 shotguns on the internet in the last 6 months. I have seen several of "yors" which interested me, but didn't even consider contacting you due to your continuous obnoxous posts. You might want to consider that in the context of the business you continue to advertise on this board where a lot of your potential buyers participate.
2 members like this
#613145 Mar 29th a 03:12 AM
by von Falkenhorst
von Falkenhorst
From the Minier model on, the Ithaca doubles used coil springs in order to achieve the fastest lock time. Although not everyone realizes it now, in the day, Ithaca was in contention for the crown as the ultimate American smoothbore, in the same exalted league as the only Yankee sidelock, LC Smith.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst
1 member likes this
#613146 Mar 29th a 03:45 AM
by ed good
ed good
well, the miner came after thu lewis... so duz dat mean duh lewis gottin der leafin typin springin schultz?

or is ah simple yes or no not possible from your complex german mind?

geez, but its amazing how sum people make the simple so complicated...
1 member likes this
#613152 Mar 29th a 12:57 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Crass & Lewis lock

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

I don't have a Minier cut-away but as said a coil spring was used

Flues coil spring

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

NID coil spring

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
1 member likes this
#613154 Mar 29th a 01:09 PM
by ed good
ed good
coil springs are more reliable...but they do not have the elegance of leaf springs...
1 member likes this
#613157 Mar 29th a 02:10 PM
by Researcher
Researcher
Just to fill the void, here is the Minier Model --

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
1 member likes this
#613166 Mar 29th a 03:53 PM
by ed good
ed good
great reference material...thanks to doc drew and researcher for sharing their knowledge with us here...
1 member likes this
#613195 Mar 30th a 12:30 AM
by Walter C. Snyder
Walter C. Snyder
The Minier model has coil springs and is detailed in my book. A Lewis model in mid range that has coil springs is something I can not explain. During the late Lewis range some Minier models can be found as they closed out the Lewis. I would like to see photos of your gun showing SN and the coil springs driving the hammers.
Very interesting!
1 member likes this
#613197 Mar 30th a 12:44 AM
by FallCreekFan
FallCreekFan
Ithaca did a small run of “test” Miniers in 1905 during the Lewis era. Your serial number falls in 1904 but it is possible that you might have an earlier version.
Could you post pics?
1 member likes this
#613224 Mar 30th a 02:02 PM
by ed good
ed good
yes, a reprint would be a good thing...
1 member likes this
#613274 Mar 31st a 11:39 AM
by Nudge
Nudge
Originally Posted by von Falkenhorst
...in the same exalted league as the only Yankee sidelock, LC Smith.

J.K.B. von Falkenhorst

This made my morning. "The only Yankee sidelock."

Offering you a gentile 'out'...maybe you meant...'the best known sidelock?'

In QUANTITY, Crescent and Folsom made more. Way more.

In QUALITY, Sneider and Baker's finest were at LEAST as good.

There are others, but that will get you started.

As a side note: Ithaca made some nice guns. Definitely solid, well built, reliable designs, with a small percentage being high grade and excellently done. But the fact remains, they sold more double guns pimping the name of an even more famous gun maker, than they did using their own.


NDG
1 member likes this
#613328 Apr 1st a 12:05 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Here you go Nudge
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=609802
1 member likes this
#613325 Apr 1st a 07:33 AM
by John E
John E
LetFly,
I have a fair accumulation of Ithaca examples. I have observed that as Ithaca made model changes they used existing model frames and incorporated the new model lockwork. In respect to the bolsters: They can be found on 3rd style Crass, almost all Lewis models, some Minier models and a scant few Flues. The lockwork is what defines the models, not the frames. I am still searching for a transition Crass/Lewis model. I have examples of Lewis framed Minier, and Minier frame Flues. There is also an odd example transition Minier/Flues with 4 pins.
1 member likes this
#613308 Mar 31st a 11:57 PM
by Researcher
Researcher
To my eye the earlier Ithaca hammerless doubles were rather ungainly in their profiles compared to an Ansley H. Fox, Lefever or Baker, but they had some lovely engraving in the higher grades. The later "bold" engraving styles, McGraw for Ithacas, Gough for A.H. Fox, etc. met a price point but are pretty unimpressive.

The Flues Model Ithaca was far from a "sound design" with all its frame cracking issues.
1 member likes this
#613332 Apr 1st a 02:09 PM
by LetFly
LetFly
I am not an Ithaca collector. I do collect early, Damascus barreled American maker SxS, Parker, Remington, Lefever, Ithaca, Smith, etc. Mainly lower grades accustomed to the woodcock covers, and usually in need of rescue from abuse.

I came across this Ithaca Lewis two barrel set, 28", 32" with original case at a LGS and added it to my set. My understanding is that Ithaca added the bolsters to the late Crass and then Lewis models, not out of any design flaw or engineering concern for cracking but as an accommodation, perhaps marketing ploy, to the growing preference for smokeless powder shotshells. I do not know the fact of this. I do know I like the look these added to the frame.
1 member likes this
#613327 Apr 1st a 11:52 AM
by Nudge
Nudge
I should add, that if the cracking question were to turn toward L.C. Smith...it's a different matter entirely. That I can speak to firsthand, having owned, and known others who have, guns with cracks behind the plates.

Even if one asserts 'hot loads' as the culprit, you would have to explain away why other makes aren't affected in similar numbers.

Even so, I hesitate to call it a "design flaw," as some have said over the years. More, an unfortunate drawback. Lots of things we buy are susceptible to unintended wear affects.

They're still pretty guns that work. Made by New Yorkers!

It's hard to believe, given current regional politics, that up until a few decades ago, the vast majority of guns ever made in the U.S. came from Connecticut, New York, and too a lesser extent Massachusetts.

NDG
1 member likes this
#613317 Apr 1st a 02:44 AM
by keith
keith
Originally Posted by Researcher
The Flues Model Ithaca was far from a "sound design" with all its frame cracking issues.

This notion concerning Ithaca Flues frame cracking, especially in 20 gauge guns, was discussed here once again several weeks ago. In spite of considerable hand-wringing about the alleged design flaw, nobody was able to demonstrate that any significant number of Flues frames have cracked. In addition, it appeared that the majority of those few that did crack were abused in some manner, such as firing excessively heavy loads, or doubling. If there is any proof showing that a significant number of Flues frames have cracked during normal use with reasonable loads, we have not seen it.

Of course, we keep hearing that E.M.Reilly had 300 gun-making employees.... But we still don't have any evidence of that either. I remain willing to be convinced, but simply saying things isn't going to do it. No arguments from me concerning the opinion that the Flues was not as good looking as some of the competition. However, there are worse looking guns, and a lot of crappy guns that really have worn out and self destructed due to poor design and poor materials. Flues shotguns simply aren't bad for a mass produced machine made gun. People who own and use them shouldn't be worried that their frames will crack under normal and proper use.
1 member likes this
#613305 Mar 31st a 10:20 PM
by Nudge
Nudge
I find the Crass and Flues to be the most appealing. Some of the engraving was tops, and the designs were sound...they just dont have the same sex appeal of other makes. The NID, while strong, has always stuck me as particularly inelegant.

Some of the trap guns are highly finished and lovely. They definitely found a niche there.

High grade guns were just such a small % of their overall production. Contrast that with Lefever, who made a large % of higher grade guns...certainly prior Dan's departure. The same can be said of Sneider over the entire life of the make - father, son and son. They saw themselves as competing with English guns. They made leaser finished guns only to pay the bills.

NDG
1 member likes this
#613361 Apr 2nd a 04:46 AM
by keith
keith
Originally Posted by Nudge
Let me phrase the pertinent question this way: If I were to own a 20 ga Flues, and only shoot loads of a pressure that is in spec for a gun of that age...should I be legitimately, rationally concerned, that the frame may fail?

NDG

Don't take my word for it... or anyone else's word either. Look it up. Do some Google searches for things like "Ithaca Flues cracked frame" etc.

That's what I did, and I really expected to find a bunch, considering how often it has been said here that these guns are prone to cracking... especially in the 20 gauge guns. What I learned was that this issue is completely overblown. There are a relative handful, considering the large number produced. When you do some digging, you find that the vast majority that cracked at the juncture of the standing breech and water table had been subject to forces far above what they were intended to handle. You will find some references to a guy named Greg Tag, who was supposedly collecting data on cracked Flues... But you won't find any actual numbers or details about cracked Flues guns he encountered. You will find statements from many guys who have heard all of the horror stories, but then they tell you that all of their Flues guns are alive and well.

You will learn that a few pictures of a few damaged guns that are repeatly posted over and over on various gun forums have created a bad reputation that is just not justified by facts or hard numbers. If a bunch of shooters load Model 94 Winchester rifles with high pressure magnum level loads, and their frames crack or stretch, should we believe the guns are poorly designed??? Of course not. It's just a silly overreaction to a virtually nonexistent problem. Some guys would be better off taking up knitting. But those knitting needles are pretty scary too.
1 member likes this
#613362 Apr 2nd a 10:40 AM
by John E
John E
Nudge,
I have pictures of cracked Flues frames. And also several other SxS makes, including a STERLINGWORTH.
I have pictures of blown damascus barrels, and also blown modern steel barrels.
The Flues is a sound design. Hard to know if those broken ones got fed a proper diet or were force fed 3" goose loads until they said uncle.
If you are shooting clays or chasing upland birds, a Flues is a fine choice.

John
1 member likes this
#613365 Apr 2nd a 11:57 AM
by ed good
ed good
a botched frame rehardening job combined with heavy loads could result in a cracked frame...
1 member likes this
#613370 Apr 2nd a 01:24 PM
by Paul Harm
Paul Harm
Color case hardening is a hardening process so the receiver wouldn't have been hardened before the coloring process.
1 member likes this
#613375 Apr 2nd a 02:50 PM
by ed good
ed good
post factory color case hardening is a process where creating case colors is a goal...if a high heat process is utilized, those colors can be a by product of the rehardening process...sometimes a cracked frame can also be a by product of a reheat treating process...and then there are the efforts to straighten warped re heat treated frames, which may also result in cracked frames...also, if a reharden frame is not correctly tempered, it could be as brittle as glass, and may crack under the stress of shooting, especially with mag loads...
1 member likes this
#613391 Apr 2nd a 08:45 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Have been looking but all I've found is 2 "guys on the internet" who stated that shotgun frames are not heat treated (understanding again that color case coloring is a form of heat treatment).
Hopefully a gunsmith will provide a definitive statement and thanks.
1 member likes this
#613398 Apr 2nd a 11:36 PM
by ed good
ed good
the best explanation i have found, is included in tony tredwell's fine book...

ttps://www.lulu.com/shop/tony-treadwell/vintage-english-shotguns-and-their-restoration/hardcover/product-20115603.html?page=1&pageSize=4
1 member likes this
#613367 Apr 2nd a 12:33 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Bro. Nudge: A sample of 5 certainly does not establish statistical significance, but AFAIK this is the only analysis of U.S. maker’s frames anyone has done

c. 1890 Hunter Arms Fulton “Transition” L.C. Smith Hammerless and 1909 L.C. Smith No. 00 were both non-standard but similar to Bessemer resulphurized (very high sulphur) AISI 1109 low (.09% & .12%) carbon steel.
Plans & Specifications of the L.C. Smith Shotgun by William S. Brophy contains an undated but likely post-1913 Materials Specification chart indicating “AISI 1020 Carbon Steel” for the frame.

c. 1900 Remington Hammerless Model of 1900 was Bessemer rephosphorized resulphurized AISI 1211 low alloy low (.08%) carbon Steel

c. 1892 New Ithaca (Hammer) Gun was AISI 1015 carbon steel

c. 1927 Crescent Empire No. 60 was non-standard AISI 1015 carbon steel with low concentrations of nickel (.05%) and chromium (.08%)

c. 1929 Fox Sterlingworth was non-standard AISI 1020 with low concentrations of nickel (.07%) and chromium (.08%)

Possibly someone could check Walt's book and see if the Flues era frame composition is specified.

I don't know if frames were heat treated prior to the color case hardening process, or if that was considered as heat treatment. If improperly done, heat treatment can decrease ductility and increase brittleness of low alloy steel.
1 member likes this
#613374 Apr 2nd a 01:58 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Lots of information regarding case coloring with help from Mike Hunter and SDH
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=572094

Decent overview of both color case and heat treating
https://uplandguncompany.com/color-case-hardening-and-heat-treating/

Yes, color case (surface) hardening is a form of heat treating, but not necessarily heat treating to increase strength of the forged action (as in rifle receivers).

I looked at several sources with descriptions of the Hunter Arms factory, all of which mentioned "large ovens for case hardening, bluing and annealing".
1 member likes this
#613401 Apr 2nd a 11:49 PM
by ed good
ed good
and then there are low heat chemical processes, which produce simulated colors, without the risk of damaging the frame...

1 member likes this
#613414 Apr 3rd a 12:31 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Found this in The Baker Gun Quarterly, November 1904, “A General Description of the Baker Gun”. This might explain why the frames were not heat treated.
Frames – All our frames are forged from the best selected steel in our own factory, under hammers of 1,000 to 1,200 pounds weight, thoroughly refining the metal and insuring freedom from imperfections. They are accurately cut by machinery, fitted, polished and thoroughly ease-hardened, which produces fine colors and a hard wearing outside surface, while the texture of the inner portions remains tough and sufficiently elastic to withstand hard strain and shock.

It also appears that frame steels had a carbon content < .25% so could not be through hardened.

AISI 8620 (C .18 - .23%) is a chromium, molybdenum, nickel alloy steel often used for modern shotgun frames, and is easily carburized and machined when annealed.
1 member likes this

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