doublegunshop.com - home Forums Thread Like Summary - Ithaca Flues with side plates

https://www.proxibid.com/Ithaca-Gun...ERN-C-R/lotInformation/66169232#topoflot

Does Dewey have any kind words in his vocabulary?
JR

Absolutely. But, people want him to say kind words about various piles of shIt, and he won’t do that.

Best,
Ted

I couldn't have said it any better Ted! Dead nuts accurate. Dewey was not one to mince words or sugarcoat facts, and he knows his subject matter far better than most in his profession.

I will say though, that the vast majority of Flues guns do not have issues with frame cracking. They did OK for a mass produced machine made shotgun, and most of the couple hundred thousand or so that were built are still functional. Many do tend to be much lighter than the later NID, but a lot of that weight reduction seems to come from thinner barrels and hollowed out butt stocks. I have 4 Flues 20 ga. guns that do not have cracked frames. Two of those were purchased very cheap as parts guns because the barrels on both are ruptured in the forend area. The barrel wall thickness at that point is very thin, and I would bet neither had ever been honed.

I've told the story about the younger brother of a good friend who routinely fired 3" magnum loads in his Dad's 20 ga. Flues Ithaca without any apparent damage. I'm sure he was not doing the bolting surfaces and stock wood any favors. A lot of vintage doubles have been heavily used with loads far heavier than what they were designed for. Many hunters strongly feel that bigger and faster is better, so a higher velocity load with more shot is their chosen load. Some guns are able to take that excessive punishment better than others. Some simply break, and end up as parts, or worse, having their pictures posted here, copied and pasted ad nauseam for all eternity.

From an engineering and design standpoint, it is hardly shocking to see shotguns with frames that crack at the 90 degree juncture of the frame and standing breech. But photos of those cracks really teach us nothing without knowing what loads were used, the metallurgy of the steel, presence of internal flaws in the steel, machining marks creating stress risers, etc. One cracked Sterlingworth frame proves exactly nothing.

I’m not sure pressure, as a factor of the new smokeless ammunition, was well understood when it came into use. In an odd twist, I doubt the internet has helped that understanding advance all that much, for the run of the mill shooter. The manufacturers of ammunition grasp its importance, but, want to limit their exposure, and deliberately are vague about specifics. Most recent boxes of ammunition I have on hand, throw the term “Max” on the box, and call it good. The loads vary in pressure from lot to lot, and the manufacturers happily tell you that, but, are mum as to what a typical pressure level would be.

SAAMI ain’t your friend, if you are shooting an old gun. I’m sure they get far more complaints about light loads not cycling a recoil autoloader, then they do from guys with old guns that suffered cracks, either in metal or wood.

As to responsible use of the old guns, I think I might have been the only guy ringing the bell, here, and at other spots on the inter web thingy, that Al Gore Jr. invented, about Tobins with bent frames, and a suspicion with the culprit being modern ammunition.

Google it.

Best,
Ted

It certainly appeared that someone was implying an intrinsic design flaw in Fox frames when someone made this comparison to Tobin frames:


I couldn't understand the motivation for posting all of these pics of cracked shotgun frames yet again, for the umpteenth time. Then Ted commented further with an accurate description of the often inappropriate loads that average hunter feeds his shotguns. And then the hysteria all came out in a reply to Ted's tongue-in-cheek comment about Googling “What loads should I use in my Tobin shotgun?” "Let me know what you come up with."

Ted got an answer with several copy-and-paste links that had nothing to do with correct loads for a Tobin. And he also got this comment:


So it appears that all of the drama and photographic evidence of broken shotgun frames is born from a hysterical fear that our vintage doubles are a potential hazard than can disintegrate like a hand grenade if they are fired with the incorrect loads. And this fearsome hazard may even create a serious risk for "our friends and children in approximation to us when we pull the trigger"! And furthermore, the serious consequences of choosing the wrong shotgun shells may indicate a lack of personal responsibility on Ted's part... all because he related what sort of ammunition the average shooter buys and shoots. Shame on you Ted.

The facts remain. There is not, and has not been any serious or widespread problem with frame cracking in vintage shotguns. I mentioned earlier that around 220,000 or so Flues guns were produced before 1926. Almost 157,000 Fox Sterlingworth guns were built until 1940, along with a lot more higher grade Fox guns. And it appears that only a small handful of frames have cracked in those guns. In addition, I have not heard of a single shooter, or friend, or small child who was injured or killed when those few frames cracked. In fact, it appears that the Flues that was the subject of this thread was simply repaired with the addition of side plates, and was probably returned to service.

So while we are on the subject of personal responsibility, I feel it is irresponsible to post false and/or totally useless information about our vintage doubles. It seems that with all of these photos of shotguns with cracked frames, we don't even know the circumstances or what loads were used when they cracked. It could have happened with 3" Magnums, heavy duck loads, hot handloads, or 2 1/2" low pressure RST's. A horse could have rolled on the gun. We just don't know. It serves no good purpose to run around like Chicken Little shouting that the sky is falling and old shotguns are fracturing and blowing up. We already have enough misinformation out there about how deadly dangerous it is to fire any gun with Damascus barrels. For the average shooter, there is probably much more risk of getting hurt or killed in a traffic accident on the way to hunting or the skeet club, than getting hurt from using the occasional Super-X or Wally World promotional loads. Most truly knowledgeable guys here know by now that the major risk from using the wrong loads is causing damage to old stock wood, or causing the gun to slowly shoot loose. As I said before, the majority of these old doubles are still functional and safe to use after going on 100 years or more. Compare that record to the percentage of cars and trucks or appliances from the same era that are still serviceable and safe. The sky is NOT falling!