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Buzz, LGF, Stanton Hillis
Total Likes: 5
Original Post (Thread Starter)
#577370 08/09/2020 3:29 PM
by Drew Hause
Drew Hause
Not much else to do here in the desert. It is almost impossible to shoot at Ben Avery, still can't swim at the neighborhood fitness club, and "church" is still on-line frown SO, might as well discuss flinching. Words (should) have meaning, and the more precise we are with our words, the better we communicate; our thoughts, our problem, our needs, and corrective measures we might try.

Links to previous threads on Trapshooters.com are here, and with more good and very bad information than anyone probably wants to review
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/what-causes-a-flinch.860907/

"Target Panic" in archers; "Yips" in golfers; "Cueitis" in billiards; "Dartitis" in dart competitors; Musician's and Embouchure dystonia; Mogigraphia or "Writer's Cramp"; Computer mouse-related dystonia; and the various shotgun sports "flinches" (including lunging at the trap house in response to the "trigger freeze") are all variants of Task-Specific Focal Dystonia or "a psycho-neuromuscular impediment affecting the execution of fine motor skills during sporting performance."
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2015/11/1...tand-surprisingly-little-about-the-yips/
I would add "visual" to the definition as some flinches are clearly precipitated by some visual error ie. losing sight/focus of the target.

"Tics", de la Tourette syndrome, and Meige's syndrome are related dystonias
https://www.webmd.com/brain/tic-disorders-and_twitches#1

Excellent review of "The Yips"
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/05/26/the-yips

Sports psychologists think "yips" is all psychologic.
Neurologists think it's a neurologic/physiologic disorder.
Likely a bit of both.
Certainly, after the first flinch, there is apprehension/anxiety about having another, which leads to loss of focus, which leads to more flinches. Telling oneself "don't flinch" before calling for a target is a good way to flinch.

Stanley Fahn M.D., professor of neurology at Columbia University, and the scientific director of the Parkinson's Disease Foundation
"It's beyond their control. It's not psychogenic; it's an organic disease of the brain. But we still don't understand why? It's some kind of a physiological-biochemical problem that we don't understand."

"What are the yips? Experts say it's not just in your head" in Golf Digest
Debbie Crews PhD, a sports-psychology consultant for the women's golf team at Arizona State, and Aynsley M. Smith PhD, a sports psychologist at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota studied "yips" in golfers and found it to be "characterized by the co-contraction of groups of arm muscles that don't ordinarily operate at the same time: one group that extends the wrist and one that flexes it."

The Task-specific Focal Dystonia that shooters call a "flinch" is a 2 part event (though occurring almost instantaneously):
1st is the "trigger freeze" (which may not be perceived by the flincher) from involuntary and dysfunctional contraction of opposing small muscles in the hand and forearm, followed by
2nd an entertaining variety of bodily reactions; lunging, jerking, stumbling toward the trap house, etc. involving large muscles.

The reason we can't pull a pull trigger is because the extensor muscles (Extensor indicis and Extensor pollicis longus) are contracting rather than relaxing, and the flexor muscle (Flexor digitorum profundus) will not contract (that's the short version and ignores the contribution of the Lumbricals and Interossei).

Recoil clearly contributes to flinching, but there is no recoil in putting or throwing a dart, and people still "yip" or have "dartitis"

Almost all of us push our bodies forward with recoil (obvious when we have a dud), but that is recoil compensation, not a flinch.

Recoil/noise avoidance flinching before the shot (ducking the head, closing the eyes, being unable to pull the trigger without jerking) is a physiologic conditioned response to an unpleasant stimulus, is not a task-specific focal dystonia, and one can become accustom to the stimulus, and the response thereto attenuated.

BTW: I've come to understand that my trigger freeze and flinch trying to click my mouse (which BTW doesn't bite) is a visual flinch; if I'm not precise in placing the cursor arrow exactly where it needs to be, I flinch.

The dystonia in throwing a baseball is failure to relax the muscles ie. inability to "let go"; the opposite of a shooter's "trigger freeze".
https://d1softball.com/throwing-ope...cher-sydney-collazos-destigmatizes-yips/

Releasing a release trigger is not a passive action; the extensor muscle must contract. Releasing an arrow from a long bow requires contraction of that same extensor muscle. Archers still have "target panic"; and some release trigger users still flinch.

Moving the gun before the target appears has been called "forecasting the target" and is purposeful, rather than an involuntary dystonia.

What a flinch most certainly is not is ALL anything; recoil fear, focus, vision, grip, slapping vs. pulling, trigger pull, gun fit, performance stress, hold point or anything else, for everybody. And claiming "it's 95%" anything is simply wrong, and not helpful. LOTS of things contribute to the dystonia, and many of us have found effective ways to suppress our flinching without a release (for me dealing with my cross-firing, firmly gripping the gun, intense focus, and low recoil loads) but as said over and over, usually a release will work (but often requiring dealing with vision issues also), and we don't know why.

Anyone claiming to understand focal dystonia, and who demonstrates a cure thereof will very quickly be a gazillionaire. The big money is in professional golfers with "the yips", but maybe the secret will trickle down to us flinchers.

Fortunately, a release trigger CAN be a cure, but may not be for everyone. And adjustments in ribs, hold points, target focus points, and vision training may indeed help visual flinches.
Liked Replies
#629776 May 7th a 01:23 PM
by KY Jon
KY Jon
I had my right shoulder rebuilt over ten years ago. It was so bad I could not throw a ball 15 feet. Within a year I was back to throwing a ball in the low 80's. Played in an old mans baseball league the second year. Wish I had done it ten years sooner. The PT was not fun and follow the PT closely. Doing 100 instead of 30 is not smart. You are building strength and range of motion, not things which can be rushed by doubling up PT. My other shoulder now needs a little work, but that is just bone spurs needing trimmed and should be easier. In and out in a few hours and a few weeks PT for full recovery.

My flinches started out from recoil. Thinking I was going to Africa, I shot a few thousand .375 and .458 rounds, mostly .458. I cringe just thinking about them now. But I did it and ended up with a great flinch which transferred over to my shotgun shooting. It took years to get rid of it. Went to shooting left handed, using my middle finger for my trigger finger and went to shooting only .410. Tens of thousands of .410 later I switched back to right handed and using my normal trigger finger. I would have a rare flinch even then, but they were always a visual, sight picture issue. It did not look right and I flinched trying to get the right sight picture. Today I doubt I have more than a finch or two a year and am very happy to be past them.
2 members like this
#629762 May 6th a 02:49 PM
by BrentD, Prof
BrentD, Prof
Good luck with the surgery. I had the same back in late November. It is a long, slow, and somewhat painful recovery.
1 member likes this
#629793 May 7th a 06:15 PM
by Stanton Hillis
Stanton Hillis
Jon Kruger shoots a release trigger now, as I think you know, Buzz. But, he does it in a totally different way than most. Most people pull the trigger to set it, then call "Pull", then release it. He does nothing with it until he's ready to shoot, then pulls it and releases it, quickly. Whatever works, eh?
1 member likes this
#577489 Aug 10th a 10:47 PM
by Stanton Hillis
Stanton Hillis
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
So what do you call it when you dock the boat and get one leg over the gunnel and your foot on the dock, but can't for the life of yourself lift the other leg to complete disembarking? ...Geo


That would be called ARD, Age Related Disorder ........

grin SRH
1 member likes this

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