doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Unidentified .350 O/U Rifle from 1912

Gentlemen

I am attempting to identify who may have built an 'under and over' rifle, in .350 calibre, which was bought in by a London gunsmith in 1912 and sold in 1913. The gunsmith finished the rifle themselves and sold it for �42, I would assume using their own name. The only clue is the word 'Mueller' in the company's books.

Whilst I realise that we shall probably be unlikely to pin down the original maker, I would like to have an idea of some of the firms making o/u rifles at that time, presumably in the German, Austrian or Swiss region. Please note I have no photos and do not even know if the rifle is still in existence; but I am curious!

Does anyone have any ideas?

Tim

trw999,
Without photos, and not knowing if "Mueller" was the owner,maker, or dealer;you are going to be pretty much out of luck.Virtually any one of the German makers could have done it.
Mike

Might first start with the proof marks to see if we can identify the cartridge. Failing that, a chamber cast which should tell us more definitively. A rifle of that vintage will have either British or European proof marks. Mike's comment is right on with "Mueller" an unclear reference. Could be European-made but proofed in the UK but the cartridge should give a clue on this.

If it's a Brit .350 then we should likely look for a bespoke (especially so because it's unusual for the Brits to make an o/u) double rifle in, say, 400/350 which might have the 310 gr bullet proof mark; or the 350 No. 2 which would have the 225 gr bullet proof mark. They might have different weights of powder stamped, too.

Regards, Tim

Thank you. As I indicated in my post, I do not even know if this rifle still exists, so proof marks, chamber casts, photos are, I am afraid, out of the question.

Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently. Who were the principle German, Austrian or Swiss O/U rifle manufacturers around 1908 to 1912? I can find no clear record of the stated Mueller, but I know nothing about rifle manufacturing in the German speaking nations at this time. Were any of these firms known to export O/U rifles? Are there any references to a Mueller in appropriate reference books?

Tim

Maybe this...?

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m/a%20muller%20gb.htm

Thank you but I suspect that is not our man.

The handwritten entry in the book quite clearly shows 'Mueller' and not Muller. The name originated in Bavaria, southern Germany which was a rifle producing region, as far as I know. Hence my assumption, and it is only that, we are looking for a German, Austrian or Swiss rifle maker, sufficiently good to produce state of the art o/u rifles (and shotguns) in around 1912.

The books actually say "Finished by ourselves pattern. Mueller" and show a bought-in cost of �17/10/0. So what we know is that a respected London gunmaker bought in either a whole gun or the principle parts thereof, finished to their high standards and sold it on.

Who were the quality rifle making firms of that region at that time? Anyone know?

Thanks

Tim

Just a point to consider: Mueller is just a way of writing Muller,when an unlaut(the two dots)is necessary over the "U" but is not avaliable. Muller and Mueller may be the same, depending on the care of the writer.
Mike

M�ller, Mueller or just Muller; all same name. Englis version is Miller. In UK it wasn�t not uncommon to to those famous brands to buy rifles and shotguns in-the-white or barrels-and-action only, even from belgian maker, finish them and then sold them with own good name.

Thank you. I too am coming around to the Mueller being an Englishman's bastardisation of the German Muller. The umlaut can be, and often is, ronounced as 'ewww'.

So even if we take the name as to be Muller, we are not that much further forward. Igorock, I thank you for your insight into a Belgium Muller. However, I can assure you that the quality of this rifle would far exceed a Belgium 'knock-off', if you follow my meaning.

In fact, I am now wondering if the 'Mueller/Muller' name might have referred to either Richard Bornmueller of Suhl, or to H Burgsmuller of Kreiensen. Bornmueller was a celebrated rifle maker, whose firm went on to distribute and perhaps export their own and others guns, whilst Burgsmuller was one of the first mail order gun dealers who is known to have sent rifles abroad for export.

Maybe, just maybe, we are inching forward on this!

Tim

Mueller seems to be a common name with Stockel showing 3 pages of gunmakers by that name, it shows Bernhard Mueller of Zurich 1867-1955 being active.

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