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Joined: Feb 2013
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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These pre-1912 guns typically lack the "Nitro" proof stamp that later models were required to have under German law. I doubt a 1910 made gun was much weaker than the same gun made in 1913, but I could be wrong. Would a pre-1912 gun in good condition with tight lock up and steel barrels require very low pressure BP-like ammunition? Or would most (not super high pressure) 2.5" ammunition be acceptable to fire in a gun of this vintage? I would be talking about any 2.5" shell from RST, Polywad, but also possibly up to the 2.5" offerings from Kent.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Actually if a longarm was slated for export & the country of import did not have a proof law on the books, the maker could opt out of the Nitro proof effort and save a few Pfenning. I know this applied to the pre-1912 voluntary proof for semi-smokeless & I believe it extended to the post 1912 rules change.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Thanks Raimey...
One of the guns I'm looking at, actually has the patent numbers stamped on the tubes, so I'm guessing they were made sometime right after the turn of the century or possibly before.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Well, early on all the tube makers were frightened so they sent the individual tubes in for a failure test as they were fully responsible for the whole lot. After the initial hurdles were overcome, the tube makers would send joined tubes and finally the makers would submit an longarm in the final state. Confidence in the steel components, which were instep w/ the powder development, was high.
The numbers are just for the joining process. Is the tube steel Krupp?
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Serial number will narrow the date range.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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My understanding of this is that "Nitro" proof was optional in Germany prior to 1912. Also I understand there was a very good reason many pre 1912 guns were not Nitro Proofed.
German proof law at that point was not based on "Pressure" per se but on a percentage of Overload. Thus if a black powder proof called for a double charge of powder then Smokeless did the same. A double charge of Schultz or Balistite created a far greater increase of pressure than did Black, gunmakers knew this & were reluctant to have their guns nitro Proofed.
Those who did submit their guns for Nitro Proof often specified a very light service load to try to circumvent the Law as written. New rules of proof were written for the 1912 act & Nitro Proof became obligatory.
I have a circa 1900 J P SAuer & Son / V L & D Knock-About sidelock. This is approximately a 7½ lp gun with the extractor marked 70 for 2 3/4" shells. It carries full Black Powder proofs but No Nitro. It is currently missing its forearm so get's no use. I suspect over the years it has been fed a many regular "US" 2 3/4" shell. Even though it has NO built in wear compensation it is still tight on face & bolts solidly. It is double underbolted with an unbolted Doll's Head. Top lever always has & will continue to Stop at center.
I would have no qualms whatsoever of feeding it up to 3¼-1¼ loads & while I have no way of proving it I highly suspect it has devoured a good many
3 3/4-1¼ loads in the past.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I'll have to do some diggin', but I'm not sure the post 1912 rules required the Nitro be obligatory, but I could easily be wrong. I seem to recall Daly opting out on some post 1912 examples as it warranted an extra fee.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Krupp steel indeed. Five digit serial number starting with 6. Doll's head rib extension.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
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Guns of that age should have the proof load or at least the service load marked. The type powder would be included in the marking, but might be hard to ID, because optional powders were allowed. A gun could be intended for nitro powder with out "NITRO" mark.
Mike
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 644 Likes: 3 |
My understanding of this is that "Nitro" proof was optional in Germany prior to 1912. Also I understand there was a very good reason many pre 1912 guns were not Nitro Proofed.
German proof law at that point was not based on "Pressure" per se but on a percentage of Overload. Thus if a black powder proof called for a double charge of powder then Smokeless did the same. A double charge of Schultz or Balistite created a far greater increase of pressure than did Black, gunmakers knew this & were reluctant to have their guns nitro Proofed.
Those who did submit their guns for Nitro Proof often specified a very light service load to try to circumvent the Law as written. New rules of proof were written for the 1912 act & Nitro Proof became obligatory.
I have a circa 1900 J P SAuer & Son / V L & D Knock-About sidelock. This is approximately a 7½ lp gun with the extractor marked 70 for 2 3/4" shells. It carries full Black Powder proofs but No Nitro. It is currently missing its forearm so get's no use. I suspect over the years it has been fed a many regular "US" 2 3/4" shell. Even though it has NO built in wear compensation it is still tight on face & bolts solidly. It is double underbolted with an unbolted Doll's Head. Top lever always has & will continue to Stop at center.
I would have no qualms whatsoever of feeding it up to 3¼-1¼ loads & while I have no way of proving it I highly suspect it has devoured a good many
3 3/4-1¼ loads in the past.
Thanks Miller. So you have a positive outlook on the early Sauers? Anyone else have any opinions on the turn of the century guns made by Sauer?
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