doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com My thoughts on Lefevers

Hello

I have been collecting Lefever serial numbers for 20+ years. I have close to 5000 guns recorded. The list over the years has told me a great deal about Lefevers and how they were numbered.

For many years we have known that most of the high grades are bunched together. Everyone thought that Lefever built a bunch of nice frames and set them aside to use for high grade guns as orders came in. most of he 8 gauge guns are in two groups so people felt the same way about them. The early run of 8 gauge guns are both thumb push opener and pivot openers.

As the serial number list grew bigger I could see that most all the guns were grouped together. Like you will see 30 or 40 lets say E grade 12 gauge Damascus guns in a group.

Then there are tons of guns that we call out of sequence guns. Like I have a G grade two piece cocker in the sidecocker serial number range and there are others that are out of sequence. There are Ithaca guns built in the 35xxx, 50xxx and other places they shouldn't be.

Ive known this for a number of years and told very few. I believe that Lefever numbered the barrels as they came in the shop. They numbered the frame by the number on the barrel. See with the 8 gauge guns the frames from a thumb push opener to a pivot opener are different and they would have not known that they were going to switch. As for the high grade guns it because they ordered top barrels like Whitworth. The out of sequence guns were guns that were built on a set of barrels that they had for a long time. Barrels with two sets of numbers on them were either guns that went back to the factory to get a second set of barrels or guns that were ordered with two sets of barrels. So the barrels with double numbers on it will have the number assigned to the barrels when they arrived in the shop and the second set of numbers will have the number of the other set of barrels and the number assigned to the gun. It also explains why Ithaca guns were built all over the serial number range. Because they had the barrels that were numbered.

I hope this doesn't rock the Lefever world to bad. I don't get on line a lot so if you have numbers or comments its best to email me at lefeverarms@gmail.com

Really good stuff. Thanks

What impact, if any, will this have on how we have been estimating the Year of manufacture?

Tamid
A lot. For years I've said the list everyone is using is not right. That's why you don't see that list on my website. I would say as many as 1/3 or the Lefever Syracuse model was built out of sequence by at least a year or two and some by 10 or more years.

I think that is very interesting and almost certainly exactly what happened. If they ordered barrels in lots it makes sense to make them up in advance and number them so a few did not walk away. They probably roughly struck them to make sure there were no hidden defects. Then assigned serial numbers based on matched weight and contour.

The mixing of old stock with new stock also explains why you see features on guns made later than the feature had fallen out of normal use. It could just have been in the normal production sequence but used a later numbered barrel stock first then a low number later. That would explain why you can see guns with different features in a out of order serial number sequence. It might not be that they were going back and forth in features so much as that their production instead they used old low barrel serial numbers on later new gun which means they also had used higher serial number on old style guns with.

Has anyone ever tried to figure out how many guns they could have produced a week? If the number is 50, 100, 150 then you could figure a fairly accurate yearly production. Did it fluctuate much over the years? Then based on pattern dates see when features were added to guns. I know they often used a new feature before they had it patented. Sometimes they seemed to decide it was not improvement and dropped it and moved onto another. One thing I always liked about LeFevers is that they ask as many questions as they answer.

KY Jon
When I age a Lefever, I look for patent dates first. Then look for the different features or things on the gun, like cocking hook, ejectors, type forend latch, pin arrangement, style of stock, ect to get the age of a Lefever. I've looked at enough of them that its not real hard to do anymore.

Bob, maybe your theory might help explain this early , approx. B Grade, thumb push. Note the Belgian proof on the outside of the barrel. Could it have been a serial number stamping error and they decided to use the barrels anyway with the Belgian stamp showing

Here's another Daryl, but I can't remember who sent me the image
Your barrels are 4 Iron "Oxford"

Possibly a C thumb push and I think 3 Iron



Banc D'Epreuves de Liege provisional proof

Drew, that's interesting. So maybe it was a common practice for a "moment in time". I'm not sure of the explanation, but two of the same era and model with the external proofs means something, but what?

Bob, you said that Lefever numbered the barrels as they came into the shop. Did you mean they numbered rough barrels before they were joined ? If so, do you have an idea of what state the rough barrels were in ? Were they bored to gauge dimensions ? Were the outsides finished in any way, or were the outsides struck down after joining ?