doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Webley

Sirs, I am travelling for work, and I have found at a local gun store a Charles Webley, 12 bore, hammer gun, double trigger, Fine London Twist bbls, engraved all over, 28 1/4" barrels ( but the tape I used only had inches. I don't know the inch to cm conversion to see if the bbls are cut or not). The serial # is 21xxx. I failed to write it down, I'm going by memory.

Is he Birmingham or London based?
Is Chas. Webley 1/2 of the Webley-Scott makers?
About what year of manufacture would this be?
Are his guns quality pieces?
The guy is asking $650.

Any help appreciated.

Here is a little information I found in "The History Of W. & C. Scott, Gunmakers" by Crawford and Whatley. This part of the book is addressing the history of Peter Webley, who merged with Scott.

"The least expensive guns marketed by P. Webley were sold under the names of 'Thomas Parker, London' or 'Charles Webley, London', whereas better grades were marked "P. Webley & Son, St. James, London."

Philip Webley, was born in 1813, he was the younger brother of James Webley who was born in 1807. Both were born in Birmingham but only their mother, Hannah Webley b.1776) has been traced.

Towards the end of the 1800s the firm claimed establishment in 1790, this must have been the date James and Philip's father or grandfather originally established a bullet or gun implement making business. It was not, as is often stated, the date William Davis established his business (see below).

Philip Webley (b.1813) was apprenticed in 1827 to Benjamin Watson. James Webley (b.1807) also seems to have been apprenticed but to whom is not known.

In 1834 James and Philip established their partnership as percussioners, lock filers and gun makers at 7 Weaman Street, which were William Davis' old premises (see William Davis). William Davis, a gun implement maker, mould and tool maker, died in 1831 and his wife Sarah inherited the business at 84 Weaman Street which she ran with her daughter, Caroline. On 5 January 1838 Philip Webley married Caroline.

Philip Webley and his family (all born in Birmingham) were recorded in the 1841 census living in Weaman Street (number unknown). Philip, who described himself as a bullet mould maker, was recorded in this census as having been born in 1816 and his wife, Caroline was recorded as having been born in 1821, both dates are obviously incorrect. They were living with their children, Thomas William (b.1838), Emma (b.1839) and Philip Jnr (b.1841), and James' and Philip's mother, Hannah (b.1776 in Birmingham). Sarah Davis (b.1825) was also living with them, she was probably William and Sarah Davis' daughter and was probably employed as a servant/nurse).

James was recorded in the 1841 census in St Mary's Row (no number stated) but strangely, the record states born in 1811 rather than 1807 and it states that he was not born in Birmingham, Warwickshire whereas in later censuses he states he was born in Birmingham, as was Philip. Harriet and Mary Ann, his sisters were also recorded as born in 1811, which is obviously incorrect, and not in Warwickshire. A child, Emma (b.1839) was recorded but to whom she belonged is not known. In this census James somewhat surprisingly described himself as a clerk.

Philip was recorded at 84 Weaman Street from 1838 as a gun percussioner, lock filer and gun maker and this is when the partnership was last recorded, but the brothers apparently continued to co-operate until 1845 when Philip reportedly sold his interest to James and used the money to purchase Sarah Davis' business. Even then, they worked together particularly with regard to the design and manufacture of percussion revolvers.

As stated above, the census records James in St Mary's Row (no number stated) in 1841 but other reports only record him from 1845 as a gun and pistol maker at 14 St Mary's Row.

Philip was recorded in the 1851 census as a 38 year old gun and pistol implement manufacturer living at 84 Weaman Street with Caroline (b.1818), Thomas William, Emma and Philip Jnr, and two other sons, James (b.1843) and Henry (b.1847), and Philip's cousin, Sarah Haywood (b.1826).

James was recorded in the 1851 census as a 43 year old gun maker employing 24 hands, a very substantial business. He was living at 14 St Mary's Row with his wife, Louisa (b.1815 in Birmingham) and sister, Mary Ann.

On 4 February 1853 Philip Webley registered patent No. 335 for a hinged revolver, and on 14 September 1853 he registered patent No. 2127 for an improvement. This was the firm's first muzzle-loading percussion cap and ball revolver which became known as the "Longspur". It was well received and faster to load than the Colt but, being hand-made, it was more expensive. Production exceeded that of the Galand & Sommerville 44 calibre revolver (manufactured by Braendlin & Sommerville) but not that of the Adams (Deane, Adams & Deane) or Tranter revolvers.

James Webley died in 1856 and Louisa took over the business continuing at 14 St Mary's Row under the Louisa Webley name.

In 1859 Thomas William, aged 21, was made a partner in the firm, which changed its name to P Webley & Son and described itself as "Gun and Pistol Makers and Patent Revolving Pistol Makers", probably exploiting Philip Webley's patent No. 305 of 4 February 1853 for a revolver frame and lock, and its improvement under patent No. 2127 of 14 September 1853. Thomas later managed the shotgun side of the business.

Louisa was recorded in the 1861 census living at 14 St Mary's Row with her daughters Louisa (b.1852) and Hannah (b.1856) and her sister Ann (Mary Ann). Louisa described herself as a gun maker employing 9 men and 7 boys. In 1865 Louisa was recorded at 13 St Mary's Row as Mrs James Webley but not after that date. In 1900 P Webley & Son reportedly occupied 13 St Mary's Row, so it seems that Philip Webley bought the business from Louisa Webley and retained the premises.

The 1861 census records Philip and Caroline living at 386 Bristol Road with Thomas W, Philip Jnr and James, and another daughter, Caroline (b.1855). Philip's niece, Mary Draper (b.1858) was recorded and the family employed a domestic servant. Philip described himself, Thomas W and Philip Jnr as gun and pistol implement manufacturers. James was described as a merchant's clerk.

On 15 August 1861 P and T W Webley registered patent No. 2033 for a pinion adjusted leaf sight.

From about 1863 up to the First World War, the firm made rook rifles for Holland & Holland. From the 1890s they supplied magazine rifles.

In 1863 and 1864 the firm's address was given as 83-84 Weaman Street, but from late 1864 to 1875 their address was 84 Weaman Street.

On 7 May 1864 a design was registered for a lever rod for extracting cartridge cases from repeating arms (No. 4364). On 4 August 1865 T W Webley was granted a patent for conversions of pin-fire guns and revolvers to centre-fire, and on 17 November 1866 he patented a spring assisted rotary under-lever for a pin-fire gun (No. 3022). In 1867 the firm made a double action .442 revolver which was adopted by the Royal Irish Constabulary and proved very popular (see Further Info below).

In 1869 T W Webley became a guardian of the Birmingham Proof House.

On 21 May 1870 P and T W Webley patented a laterally sliding barrel action (No. 1474).

The 1871 census records Philip as a 48 year old gun maker again living at 386 Bristol Road but only with Caroline, a cook and a housemaid. Thomas William was recorded living at The Uplands, Northfield, Edgbaston with his wife, Emma (b.1840 in Thrapston, Northamptonshire) and his brother Henry and two servants. Thomas described himself as a 30 year old master gun maker, Henry was described as a 24 year old gun maker's clerk.

By 1874 the firm had a showroom in London at an unknown address. In 1875 the firm expanded into 82-84 and 88-89 Weaman Street.

In 1877 the firm bought the business of Tipping & Lawden at Constitution Hill, Birmingham. Plain quality guns were sold under the Tipping & Lawden name for several years. The Webley's London showroom was recorded at 17 Woodstock Street, just off New Bond Street and Oxford Street.

On 9 January 1879 a patent was registered for a cartridge loading machine (No. 6123).

On 8 May 1880 T W Webley patented intercepting sears for a drop-down barrel trigger plate action (No. 1860).

In the 1881 census, Philip Webley (aged 68) was recorded as still living at 386 Bristol Road with Caroline. James, aged 38 and described as a commercial traveller, was living with them. Philip described himself as a gun, rifle and revolver manufacturer employing 150 men and 10 boys.

The 1881 census records Henry Webley as a 34 year old widower and firearms manufacturer living on his own apart from two servants at 6 Vicarage Road, Edgbaston, Birmingham. Henry's first wife was Julia Harriss whose brother was J Harriss of Trulock & Harriss of Dublin). At some time he moved to London to take care of the London end of the business leaving Thomas William to manage the factory.

The 1881 census records T W Webley as a 43 year old gun and rifle maker living at Selly Park, Northfield, Edgbaston, with his wife Emma (aged 41), a cook, housemaid and under-housemaid.

On 24 November 1881 T W and Henry Webley patented a revolver extractor with a spring loaded retractor and an extractor for a drop-down action (No. 5143).

On 29 March 1882 patent No. 1511 by T W Webley covered a barrel bolt for a drop-down barrel action and a tumbler bolt safety, and on 26 June in that year T W Webley and T Brain patented their opening cocking drop-down action with screw grip top fastening (No. 3053).

On 1 February 1883 Henry Webley registered patent No 542 for an improvement to W E Gadge's patent No. 3313 of 29 July 1881. On 20 March 1883 T W Webley, G Bouckley and E C Hodges registered patent No. 1463 for cocking and safety mechanisms for drop-down barrel guns. On 31 March 1885 Henry Webley and J Carter patented a side-lever operated stirrup barrel latch for a revolver (No. 4070).

In 1886 the firm opened additional premises in Slaney Street.

On 15 February 1888 T W Webley patented an ejector mechanism operated by a cocking lever (No. 2294), and on 3 November he patented muzzle rifling (No. 15894). Also in that year, the London showroom moved 60 Queen Victoria Street, and on 24 March 1888 Philip Webley died.

At the time Philip Webley died he was living at 64 Bristol Road. Caroline and Thomas William were his executors, his will was proved at �13,609.7s.10 1/2d.

The new London showroom was managed by W J Jeffery. It seems he may have taken advantage of Philip Webley's poor health and leased the property in his own name. Whatever the terms of the employment agreement between Jeffery and the firm, Thomas and Henry immediately terminated it and left W J Jeffery to occupy the premises. It seems the firm had no London Offices or showroom after 1888 but in 1893 a new showroom was opened at 78 Shaftesbury Avenue and Henry probably moved to London to run it. The shop manager was H J Harriss (Julia Harriss' brother and Henry's brother-in-law?).

The 1891 census recorded Caroline Webley aged 73 living on the south coast at a boarding house at 67 Warrior Square. She obviously moved there for the sake of her health, but died in April of that year. Henry does not seem to have been recorded in the census but Thomas William and Emma were recorded again at 2 The Uplands.

In 1893 Thomas and Henry Webley bought the business of Joseph Lang & Son. Lang had been buying P Webley & Sons guns for some time but they were broke and unable to pay their debts.

On 22 February 1896 Henry Webley, aged 46, married 25 year old Flora Macdonald. At the time he was living at 59 St James' Street. She was born in Cardigan in 1871 and was the daughter of a colonel in the Royal Marines.

On 1 March 1897 T W and H Webley patented a falling block action (No. 5388), but the most significant date in 1897 was 21 October when the firm bought W & C Scott & Son. Prior to this take-over, P Webley & Sons had bought the firm of Richard Ellis & Son. The businesses combined under the name on of Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co Ltd. Webley had been Birmingham's largest manufacturers of revolvers for some time and Scott had been the biggest manufacturers of sporting guns. After the take-over, guns were produced under both the Webley and the Scott names. The P Webley & Sons name was used up to 1920 (cheaper guns being sold under the names "Charles Webley" and "Thomas Parker"). One gun (serial No. 68041) has been seen engraved Webley & Scott Arms Co Ltd but this was probably an engraver's mistake as no other record of this firm is known.

T W Webley was appointed managing director of the new company, Lord Ebury was chairman. Henry Webley formally retired at this time due to ill health. Frank T Murray was company secretary.

It seems the company expanded to occupy 81-91 Weaman Street, there are conflicting reports about when the Slaney Street premises were given up, in 1897 or 1900, and one report states that up to 1900 the company still occupied 13 St Mary's Row.

In 1898 T W Webley put Lang & Hussey Ltd (who had taken over from Joseph Lang & Son Ltd) into liquidation and registered another company with the same name. The shareholders were Henry and T W Webley.

In 1899 the former Scott showroom at 10 Great Castle Street, Regent Circus (Oxford Circus) London was closed and Webley's premises at 78 Shaftesbury Avenue were used.

On 13 October 1900, Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co and W J Whiting registered patent No 18225 for a locking spring modification to the Fosbery automatic revolver.

The 1901 census records Thomas William and Emma on holiday at the Imperial Hotel, Torquay, with a lady's maid. Henry and Flora were recorded living in a flat at 97 Cadogan Gardens, Chelsea with a butler, a lady's maid, a cook and a housemaid.

On 15 March 1902 Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co and T W Webley registered patent No. 6365 for a falling block rifle mechanism. On 19 September 1902 Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co and W J Whiting registered patent No. 20430 for a same position trigger mechanism for single or double action revolvers. On 4 September 1903 Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co and W J Whiting registered patent No. 19032 for a semi-automatic pistol with a recoiling barrel and breech block.

On 13 February 1904 Thomas William Webley died at The Uplands. He left a personal estate valued at �35,325.4s.1d. Frank T Murray became managing director of the company.

On 16 February 1904 Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co and W J Whiting registered patent No. 3820 for another semi-automatic pistol with a recoiling barrel and breech block. On 17 August 1904 Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co and W J Whiting registered patent No. 17856 for a lock on the slide of a semi-automatic pistol to hold it open when the magazine was empty. On 17 November 1904 W J Whiting registered patent No. 25028 for improvements to patent No. 3820 of 1904.

On 13 May 1905 W J Whiting registered patent No. 10072 for a combination coil spring for a revolver. On 4 August 1905 W J Whiting registered patent No. 15982 for an improved semi-automatic pistol mechanism and safety which locked the hammer at half cock.

In 1906 the company was renamed Webley & Scott Ltd. On 11 June 1906 W J Whiting registered patent No. 13570 for an automatic pistol mechanism.

On 4 May 1907 W J Whiting registered patent No. 10377 for coil spring cocking of hammers.

On or about 4 November 1908 Webley & Scott and W J Whiting registered patent No. 23200 for a safety block for a semi-automatic pistol. On 4 September 1908 Webley & Scott Ltd and W J Whiting registered patent No. 18567 for a semi-automatic pistol with a fixed barrel which referred to patent No. 23200/1908. On 12 September 1908 W J Whiting reportedly registered patent No. 19177 for a semi-automatic pistol action which locked the slide when the magazine was empty. This patent number has not been confirmed and a patent No. 2570 reportedly 12 September 1908 which referred to a modification of patent No. 15982 (not found) of 1905 has not been confirmed.

In 1909 Webley revolvers and automatic pistols became standard issue for the armed forces and the manufacture of all shotguns and rifles was moved to the former Scott factory at The Premier Gun Works, 123 Lancaster Street; the enlarged former Webley factory only produced pistols and revolvers and other small items. Production of sporting guns at the Premier Works amounted to about 2,500 per annum in the period 1897-1909, and 2,000 in the period 1910-1913.

Prior to the merger with W & C Scott & Son, P Webley & Son had produced rifles using Martini, Mauser, Mannlicher and Springfield actions, they also produced a "W & RC" rifle in various calibres. They produced sidelock shotguns in 5 grades that they called the "W & R" models. These used the Webley & Brain patent and the Rogers patent. John Thomas Rogers and John Rogers were action filers at 78 Lower Tower Street, they registered patent No. 397 covering a cocking mechanism widely used by Webley. They also produced "Rogers" and "London Pattern" models, and boxlocks that they called the "A & W" (51, 52, 54, 2nd Special and 1st Special grades), these used the Anson & Deeley action and Webley & Brain top fastener; these were produced up to 1940. They also produced a "K" model boxlock shotgun in three grades up to 1921.

In 1904 a Webley employee, J Carter had registered a patent for a single trigger. This became known as the Webley Duplex Single Trigger as one could use the front trigger to fire the right and then the left barrel, or the rear trigger to fire the left and then the right barrel. The complication was that a slide had to be operated to switch the trigger from either "Ordinary" double trigger operation to "Combination".

On 23 January 1909 W J Whiting registered patent No. 1664 for a magazine catch for semi-automatic pistols. On 15 October 1909 W J Whiting registered patent No. 23564 for a semi-automatic grip safety which referred to 1664/1909.

On 21 February 1910 W J Whiting registered patent No. 4213 for a combined cocking lever and compression chamber for an air weapon.

In 1910 the firm made it's "Proprietary Hammerless Boxlock", this used the Webley top extension Screw Grip patented in 1882. It was later named the Model 400 and became available for a time in three grades, production continued until 1946. This model with its top extension was the first to take advantage of improvements in accurate machining of metal parts so that guns could be made on what was called the "interchangeable principle".

On 1 September 1910 W J Whiting registered patent No. 20367 for ejectors which used twin spring guide rods in automatic guns. At the same time he registered patent No. 15783 for a side lever on a semi-automatic pistol to release the magazine hold-back.

On 1 January 1912 W J Whiting registered patent No. 201 for a rear sight for use on a long range automatic pistol. On 14 May 1912 W J Whiting registered patent No. 11418 for a hammer block for a semi-automatic pistol to prevent damage when dry-firing.

In about 1912/1914 the company made a trap-shooting shotgun with a raised ventilated rib, a mid-sight, Monte Carlo stock with pistol grip, and a beavertail fore-end.

On 30 January 1913 W J Whiting registered patent No. 2468 for a safety mechanism for semi-automatic pistols to prevent discharge if no magazine was inserted. On 19 March 1914 W J Whiting registered three patents, No. 6491 for a trigger guard lock for a semi-automatic pistol which referred to his patent No. 15982/1905, No. 6955 for a firing pin and spring modification to his patent No 6956/1914, and No. 6956 for a safety grip and safety to prevent firing of a semi-automatic pistol if no magazine was inserted.

On 30 June 1914 W J Whiting registered patent No. 15636 for a magazine removed safety for a semi-automatic pistol.

In 1914 the company introduced their Model 100 single barrel semi-hammerless shotgun production of which continued until about 1975. This was based on William Baker's patent No. 6223 of 1910 but in 1922 and 1924 improvements were patented by D V Johnstone and John William Fearn. On 24 October 1914 the company registered patent No. 21473 for a safety which locked the trigger on removal of the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol.

From 1914 to 1929 the company made a single-barrel trap gun.

The start of the First World War in 1914 heralded big changes for the company which was heavily involved in the war effort in particular, in making the Mark IV .455 calibre revolvers and Verey Pistols. Henry Webley rejoined the board in 1915 for the duration of the war; at this time he was also Chairman of Joseph Lang & Sons. William J Whiting was appointed joint managing director in 1915, he resigned in 1920 (his son worked for Webley & Scott Ltd and at some time was also appointed works manager). W J Whiting's last patent was No. 151196 of 21 January 1920 which was for another magazine removed safety

Production of sporting guns fell dramatically in the early years of the war and ceased from August 1917 to March 1919.

On 30 October 1920 Henry Webley died. At the time he was living at 31 Albert Hall Mansions, Kensington. Probate was granted to Charles Wyld, managing director of Fortnum & Mason, and Percy Gerald Dudley Bell, Chartered accountant. Henry left a personal estate valued at �30,269.19s.2d.

In 1920 the making of guns under the name of P Webley & Sons ceased, and the Premier Gun Works at 123 Lancaster Street closed (the Weaman Street premises acquiring the name Premier Gun Works). The lack of demand in the gun trade meant that the company sought other engineering work, in particular from the fast developing automotive industry.

In 1921 the London showroom was moved from Shaftesbury Avenue to smaller premises at 55 Victoria Street.

On 3 February 1922 Webley & Scott Ltd and J W Fearn registered patents No. 192914 for a spiral spring top lever. In 1922 Douglas Vaughan Johnstone became managing director. On 12 September 1922 D V Johnstone and J W Fearn registered patent No. 199992 for a coil mainspring and cocking lever on a top lever operated single barrel gun. On the same day they registered patent No. 200429 for an ejector.

It was in 1922 that the Model 300 was introduced. It was discontinued in 1939 when the model 300A commenced its 7 year life. This, like the model 400 had a top extension but it used a Greener type cross-bolt. At this time the production of guns was running at about 1,000 per annum (2,000 in 1920 and 1924). Production of Scott's designs dropped substantially and over the next 5 years only about 150 were made. In the following 10 years only about 50 Scott guns were produced and manufacture of them stopped in 1935.

On 6 July 1923 D V Johnstone and J W Fearn registered patent No. 217441 for a V spring operated version of their single barrel gun covered by patent No. 199992 of 1922. On 1 December 1923 F Clarke, D V Johnstone and J W Fearn registered patent No. 231557 for an air pistol or air cane piston compressed by a screw mechanism. On 21 December 1923 D V Johnstone and J W Fearn registered patent No. 219872 for an air pistol with a forward hinged barrel cocking mechanism.

On 26 January 1924 D V Johnstone and J W Fearn registered patent No. 231270 for a metal and leather barrel seal for an air weapon. On 19 February 1924 they registered patent No. 229851 for a trigger locking safety for an air pistol. On 3 May 1924 they registered patent No. 237657 for an over / under action with side lugs interlocking with recesses in the barrels. On 30 September 1924 they registered patent No. 246540 for an air weapon rear sight with two adjustable plates.

On 3 May 1926 they registered patent No. 252651 for an air cylinder sealed by multiple split rings.

On 3 May 1929 Webley & Scott Ltd and D V Johnstone registered patent No. 326703 for an air pistol with variable cocking pressure. This was the final step in the creation of the famous Webley air pistol. How many were made in one form or another is not known.

Between 1925 and 1946 the lightweight game model 500 (grade 2) shotgun (also called "Proprietary" probably because it had the Webley top extension and Screw Grip fitted to the model 400) was produced. The model 600, a basic non-ejector, was introduced in 1927 and produced until 1946. Various versions, 601 (1937), 602 (1937), 603 (1938) and 604 (1939) were made some of which had top extensions.

In 1925 a few experimental over / under shotguns were produced but they never went into full production. The experiment was repeated in 1930 but again, probably due partly to the depression, they never saw the light of day.

In 1928 T W Horton was appointed chairman. In that year the 55 Victoria Street premises were closed and the company operated only from Birmingham.

In 1929 production dropped to 400 guns; in 1932 it was 100 guns but then it rose gradually to about 400 guns in 1938.

In 1932 A C Griffiths was appointed chairman.

In 1934 H W Smallwood was appointed general manager.

The production of W & C Scott sporting guns ceased in 1939 (apart from one gun made in 1949 and a consignment of 48 boxlock shotguns made for Abercrombie & Fitch in New York in 1964). The production of Webley & Scott sporting guns continued until June 1940 when the company increased the manufacture of Mark IV .38 calibre revolvers and flare pistols. Precisely what other war work the company engaged in is not known. It seems the company acquired two additional factories during the Second World War but their precise addresses are not known; it is likely that they were not in Birmingham as the company was classified as a strategic industry and the danger from bombing was too great.

In December 1945 the production of boxlock shotguns started again, but rifles were no longer made by the company and sidelock shotgun production temporarily ceased. "Standard" and "Special" models of shotgun were made, but these were replaced in 1947 by the model 700 in 12 and 16 bore. By 1949 production had reached 1,000 guns per annum.

During the 1950s and 1960s the company made their bolt action shotgun in .410, .22 and .360 (9mm) calibres.

In the 1950s they also made boxlock and falling-block guns for Holland & Holland. W C Scott & Son had been a major supplier of guns to Holland & Holland from the mid-1800s; from about 1919 these boxlocks were usually sold with "Shot and Regulated by Holland & Holland" engraved on the barrel or rib.

In 1952 Eric G Bewley became general manager, he had been company secretary since 1930 and was appointed a director of the firm in 1957. He was a guardian of the Birmingham Proof House from about 1930 until about 1967, and chairman from 1949 to 1957. He was chairman of the Gunmakers Association in 1950 and Chairman of the Long Sufferers Association in 1965.

In 1957 two extra models were introduced, these were the 701 and 702 which had more engraving and better wood. The 702 was the top of the range, not the 701 as some reports state; this oft-repeated mistake arose due to a researcher obtaining prices for the 701 and 702 at different times and between the frequent rises in prices. Variations including 20 bore and 28 bore models, were made for export to the USA. The number of guns produced by the firm at this time and during the 1960's and early 1970's was about 1000 per annum of which more than half were exported to the USA.

In 1958 Webley & Scott Ltd were taken over by R H Windsor Ltd and, when the Weaman Street factory was demolished to make way for the Birmingham Inner City Ring Road, they moved to Park Lane, Handsworth, Birmingham.

In 1960 Arusha Industries Ltd took over R H Windsor Ltd and the enlarged company was named General & Engineering Industries Ltd.

In 1965 Webley & Scott Ltd bought W W Greener Ltd. From 1965 to 1967 the company made 275 guns under the Greener name, mostly "Empire de Luxe" and "Empire" models with aluminium alloy actions. Most of the remainder were "DH40" and "Blue Rock" boxlocks. The Greener GP single barrel shotgun was produced from 1965 to 1979.

In 1966 a small number (27) of "Conquest" or "Model 1100" guns were made, these were based on the Rogers bar-action sidelock.

From 1970 to 1978 the company imported Over/Under shotguns from Beretta in Italy. These guns were finished by Webley & Scott and named either "Model 900" (1346 in number)or "Model 901" (11 in number), the latter having better wood and engraving.

In 1973 the Harris & Sheldon Group bought Webley & Scott Ltd but within a short time sales and production started to fall, declining to about 350 guns per annum by 1979.

In 1978 and 1979 the company imported a few Kromson and Arkrom Over/Under shotguns.

In 1979 Webley & Scott ceased shotgun production but continued to make air rifles and air pistols at Park Lane. Harris & Sheldon invested �250,000 in a new company, W & C Scott (Gunmakers) Ltd which was established at the Premier Works, Tame Road, Witton, Birmingham. The cessation of shotgun production was mainly due to the high costs of gunmaking in the UK compared with Spain, Italy and Japan; the intention of the new company was to produce medium and top quality double barrelled shotguns, supply the trade with barrels and actions, and repair all makes of shotgun.

Patrick G Whatley was the managing director of the new company, his staff numbered 32 people a majority of whom were former Webley & Scott employees. Out of about 500 shotguns per annum produced by all UK makers in the following 12 months, about 100 guns were produced by the new company. The basic models were the "Bowood", the "Chatsworth" (sideplates) and the "Kinmount". Derivations of these were made for the US market these being the "Texan" (Bowood) and the "Crown" (Kinmount). In 1983 a sidelock was produced in standard (discontinued in 1984) and de luxe qualities, this was named the "Blenheim". The company also produced guns for the Orvis company (the Orvis KHP).

The main problem experienced by W & C Scott (Gunmakers) Ltd during the ensuing years was the relatively high price of their products compared with imported guns, and lack of a significant export market. In 1985 W & C Scott (Gunmakers) Ltd and Webley & Scott Ltd were sold to Holland & Holland who had a long held reputation for very high quality guns, an established export market, and a desire to manufacture boxlock guns for which they required additional manufacturing capacity. Webley & Scott appears to have ceased operations but W & C Scott (Gunmakers) Ltd appears to have continued operating under that name making the "Cavalier" model shotgun.

In 1991 Holland & Holland decided to centralise all their manufacturing at their Harrow Road factory in London and the Birmingham factory was closed.

In 1993 the company was bought by Scalemead Arms, a distribution company owned by David Pickering. Airgun manufacture was resumed and the company moved to Frankley Industrial Park, Tay Road, Rednal, Birmingham, West Midlands B45 0PA.

In November 2005 Webley & Scott Ltd appointed administrators to manage the company and find a buyer for the business. A company named Webley International Ltd continues to operate as a supplier of airgun accessories, imported airguns, blank firing guns and other gun accessories, see Webley International Ltd under "Gun Suppliers". Whether or not this is still operating is not known, in 2006 a buyer was found, Airgunsport Ltd bought the business but details are not known.

The shotgun archives of Webley and Scott were sold to Gallyon & Sons at auction in London on 5 December 2002. The price paid was �8,000. Internet Gun Club is able to give some information on serial numbers and dates, please post queries on the Bulletin Board. Further information is available from Gallyon & Sons.

After producing the Royal Irish Constabulary revolver in 1867, almost all of Webley's subsequent revolvers were of a top-break design such as the British Bull Dog (1872) which was available in .44 short rimfire, .442 and .450 calibers, and later in .320 and .380. Webley made some of the double action revolvers now called Webley .577 Boxer revolvers. These were made by Webley and others under licence from William Tranter.

In the 1880s Webley developed the Mark 1 "WG" Army Model in 455/476 (.476 Enfield). It was manufactured in .450, .455 Webley, and .476 calibre and founded a family of revolvers adopted by the British Army, Royal Navy, and police constabularies from 1887 to 1918. The Mark VI (No. 1 Mark VI after 1927) was the most widely-produced of their revolvers, 300,000 were made during the first World War.

In 1898 Lieutenant Colonel George Vincent Fosbery VC (Retd) of Holland & Holland Paradox fame, approached Thomas Webley to develop and build his self-cocking or automatic revolver. Heavy recoil is a problem with pistols, and Fosbery sought to use the recoil to cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder and to reduce recoil in the process. The barrel and cylinder slid backwards on the frame. He had made several prototypes based on the Colt 1873 single action model. William John Whiting was manager of Webley's revolver department (later appointed works manager then joint managing director) and he was given responsibility for putting the Fosbery revolver into production although he was primarily known for his work with automatic pistols which were then becoming popular. The Webley-Fosbery was shown at the July 1900 Bisley Meeting and was highly praised for its lack of recoil and steadiness of aim. Two of the testers had highest possible scores and Petty Officer Larcombe of HMS Wildfire won the self-loader match with a Webley-Fosbery. The pistols were tested by the military in England and the USA but were rejected as the sliding mechanism was deemed too likely to succumb to dust and grit in the field. The revolver was not a commercial success partly because of the new popularity of the "automatic pistol" and the restrictions introduced in the 1903 Pistols Act, but it was popular with target shooters. About 4237 were made, production ceased in 1924.

In 1909 the company started to make semi-automatic pistols, their .32 calibre was adopted by London's Metropolitan Police in 1911. A .38 calibre version was used by the Royal Navy during World War II.

As P Webley & Son, the firm is known to have sold cartridges for a short period.

Amongst the awards won by the company were:
Medal at the Dublin Exhibition 1872
Medal at the Vienna Exhibition 1873
Medal at the Philadelphia Exhibition 1876
Medal at the Sydney Exhibition 1880
Medal at the Calcutta Exhibition 1883
Medal at the Zurich Exhibition 1892.

Pete

I just got out of my meeting and I'm reading the replies. Thanks Joe, and Pete, man, you gave alot of info. to digest. Thanks. It looks like Chas. Webley was on the lower end. Thanks for the help before I paid too much for what it may be worth.

Robert.

Some of the old Webleys were really nice guns. Post some pics....$650 might be a steal.

I agree with jOe. I can't believe Peter Webley would have turned out an inferior gun. Granted, it probably had plainer wood and barrels but the intrinsic quality should be there.

Hi guys. Here it is for sale. Opinions?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=386267740

I'd want to know more about those light pits in the bores. I'd also want to see the proofmarks and at least measure the bore diameters; wall thickness if possible. From the proofmarks, you should be able to tell what the original bore diameters were, and by measuring the current bore diameters, determine how much (if at all) they've been honed.

You might have a vintage shooter at a fairly decent price, or you might have an overpriced wall hanger.